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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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The thing that I was most intrigued about is when Ling gets to shore and says Zhengui is her Brother. The way we are announcing it… it's gonna stick… but their relationship is much closer to mother/son, to Zhengui too. I don't like this dichotomy, hope we can finally clear things up this next arc with him, and since we have finally gotten less angsty about relationships who knows…
 
Vhalin said:
The thing that I was most intrigued about is when Ling gets to shore and says Zhengui is her Brother. The way we are announcing it… it's gonna stick… but their relationship is much closer to mother/son, to Zhengui too. I don't like this dichotomy, hope we can finally clear things up this next arc with him, and since we have finally gotten less angsty about relationships who knows…
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I think words will still stay as 'Brother/Sister'. Qi and Zhengui already had this talk, and they both thought that it will be weird to change words so late...
Even worse now, when this is substantially more publicized relation.
 
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Could this insight cause Heart Demons if we are forced to work against it? Sure. So can literally all of our insights. That's the risk of climbing higher and higher. Your actions become limited by your nature. If you don't like it, stay in Green. We have to accept losing paths.
 
Ling Qi only referred to the fire aligned softshell turtles as her nephews, but thinking about it the fish also fits. Wood aligned and a shell-like plating, their creation was probably influenced by Zhengui as well
 
Tylonius said:
Could this insight cause Heart Demons if we are forced to work against it? Sure. So can literally all of our insights. That's the risk of climbing higher and higher. Your actions become limited by your nature. If you don't like it, stay in Green. We have to accept losing paths.
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We all know that. But people don't like the way this insight limits us. That's an important factor in choosing insights and a valid concern. Not all limitations are the same.

By the same argument you can claim that taking an insight that says anyone out of our community is an enemy, is not a concern, cause all insights limit us in some way.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.

Respect as a foundation of community, which we need to practice in order to give others Choice. It has a nice synergy and I dig it.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
When I first read the insight, I thought, "This will easily pass, as I can't see anything people will not want in our Way." Boy did I underestimate our community.

[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
Brylowman said:
When I first read the insight, I thought, "This will easily pass, as I can't see anything people will not want in our Way." Boy did I underestimate our community.
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I mean it's still winning by quite a wide margin, it's just that questers don't like having their agency restricted in any way out of principle (even if doing things that would go against this insight would probably be both out of character and objectively silly most of the time.)
 
So, let's just go through some concrete examples.

White sky? Good neighbors. Neither dominating nor submitting, but giving and taking.

Bai? Recovering bad neighbors. Historically real big into the demanding and domination, to the point where not doing those things marks you as unfit for leadership, but willing to play ball with external parties in their weakness. We'll see how long that lasts.

Peaks? Bad neighbors. Issues ultimatums and takes to emphasize dominance.

Ebon rivers? Good neighbors.

White sands? Bad neighbors.

Golden Fields? Good neighbors, I think. Will need to see official stance and not just people we like.

Red jungle? Good neighbor, for the moment. They're sending help without submitting, apparently, and they aren't issuing ultimatums or demands yet.

Biggest bonus to me though is how directly it contradicts any insights like "in every interaction, one party dominates, and the other party submits" or "all groups have someone in charge who makes decisions on behalf of the group".
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
Pick one or more:
- Counterintel is a thing, unannounced audits and security probes have value. Neighbors have blindspots and it's rude to shove those in their faces on an initial intel sweep.
- CRX is too similar to her mother and too high rank to be doing skulduggery, GG is far too shiny.
- More than occasionally we'll have to throw down the "I'm higher ranked than you and you need to do what I say" because we don't have time to share full info (or it's risky to do so).
- Gaining consensus is valuable but there are only so many hours in a day to pursue it vs just ordering something done.
- A individual belonging to the "neighbor" group can be outwardly respectful and follow protocol but be an obstacle. LQ having an additional tool to understand their worldview at a glance is handy for cutting through social barriers.

Do I think any or all of these situations make the insight unworkable? No.
Can one see themselves as the protagonist while acknowledging they do "not good" things? Yes
Is what we gain from this insight worth the potential headaches? Not for me.

I don't like that some of our day to day job activities being classified as "bad" could be baked into our soul. A situation like that feels like it's make an unpleasant but necessary job become pretty toxic.
 
Which is fine and dandy, but you know that if it was done to you, and you found out, to l you would regard it as more hostile than not.

It indicates a willingness and an ability to get up in your business, which makes it a potential threat. And some people, such as those who deal with spies in their neighbor's house, make it their business to remove threats while they are still potential.

If you want a world that isn't full of enemies, you have to regard others as sovereign over their stuff. I think that's where the dragons fundamentally go wrong, so I'm looking to buy future conflict with the peaks here.
 
veekie said:
It doesn't seem that different from Good Politics in general?

So first definitions of social circles:
-Self - Yourself of course
-Family - Family, close friends and other forms of inner circle.
-Neighbors - Those belonging under the same Community. People you expect to have to work with long term.
-Strangers - People who don't belong to your Community.
-Enemies - People dedicated against you or your Community.

So what does this mean in practice?
-Listening without Spying
Bai Anxi is a good case study of this.
Listening and interpreting what they present and signal is not spying on them, nor is reading their body language or resource flows.
We were in his head, next to his deepest, most sensitive thoughts, and yet we were trusted to do so, and permitted to do so, because we could metaphorically be trusted to go in their house, walk through the bedroom to catch a spider without opening their underwear drawer.
People who spy on everything without probable cause result in everyone reacting defensively to them. This is important for our Way, because we're going to be kind of good at this sort of thing.

-Speaking without Demanding
This means that we can't issue ultimatums without scenarios where they have already put themselves outside the Community. It makes things more tricky to navigate as a feudal lord, but...a good lord rather than a tyrant generally wants to do this anyway. Talk to people, even if they are your lessers, understand their objections and either address them or provide recompense in some way.
Because even if you are their superior you can only demand so much before they degrade or have to fight you for their own survival.

-Taking without Dominating
Same as above. The difference between taxation and robbery.
They must get something out of it. Buy-in on social contracts, services, goods, and respect returned for material loss. It doesn't have to be an equal swap but it has to be a swap.
Again, as the Bao dealings show - it has to be this way if you expect future dealings to be on the table. Otherwise everyone just learns that dealing with you sucks, and endeavors not to do so without the dominance to force your hand.

-Gives without Submitting
And this relates to generosity versus tribute.
Even the dominant partner can be generous, as above, there must be give and take.
The dominant partner must not forget to be generous, because dominance isn't forever.
To offer mercy and generousity is not the same as weakness, and this I expect is a cornerstone of Renxiang's governance to begin with.

Areas of future exploration:
-Interactions with overlapping community circles.

You can share social contexts where two opposed communities share elements under an overarching community. The Meng Isolationists are personal opponents to us, but we're allied to their kin, who are themselves under the same banner of Emerald Seas and Empire. They have to be dealt with as neighbors even if they have no interest in being good ones.

-Recompense or remediation for necessary violations.

Political reality means we need to cross the line into being a bad neighbor at least sometimes.
What do we do then?
Well, political reality says that in such cases you have to compensate them to make things right anyway, otherwise you're burying feuds like landmines.

-What about people who aren't following the rules?

This itself divides further:
--Those who aren't in your community and do not wish to be part of it.
As a feudal lord on a border, the insight itself just means that we should offer the option to negotiate entry, but if push comes to shove, they HAVE refused to be part of the community, and it is permissible, though not preferred, to bulldoze them.

--Those who are in your community and being Bad Neighbors with no intention to stop.
Practically inevitable, and will require coming to a conclusion for what to do in such cases. Get even, and to how far? Turn the other cheek? Or exile them from your community concept?
Advanced Insight bait really.

All told...these are rules we should be applying in general to anyone we intend to work with further in future regardless, when taking the long view.
There are predictable troubles, but I don't see any path forward for Community and Communication Ways that doesn't have to address those troubles regardless.
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Okay. So, this is broadly correct as an interpretation. It is going to make things more difficult for you int he context of the empires feudal politics. You are going to be constrained in your methods, but for example if CX tells you hey this person is plotting against us, go investigate sneakily for evidence, you can do this. Its kinda orthogonal to it even, as someone who is working against the head of your comunity is not falling under good neighbor stuff yourself.

It is going to make you more reliant on external sources to give you the initial justification, and a need to make reparations to the target if the accusations are false. Secondly it will apply most strongly to people and groups you have direct relationships with, and whether you even want to be their friends to begin with. The Moose is an example brought up. You will have to at least try to talk to him, and if he bothers to reply enough to say stay the fuck out of X area and I'll leave you alone you will probably be driven to accept some kind of bargain in that direction unless he takes hostile action against you or your community. This is a genuine dilemma!

At the same time you definitely haven't developed your conception of community enough to really cover the whole empire but that line will slide with LQ's development. However you should expect this to constrain and hinder you at times, in exchange for the benefits.

As far as counter intel goes, no the insight will not prevent you from auditing your own community and organizations within it, like your right to do so is pretty firmly written into the expected social contract here, and does not trigger a heart demon, because there is no expectation of privacy in that sphere.
 
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I honestly love the moose example because we're very much the bad guy there lol. He has unironically done nothing wrong but we want to do a settler colonialism to him. And LQ is also the kind of person to wonder if doing a settler colonialism to innocent spirits is morally wrong.

Meizhen ofc would pat us on the head and tell us to stop being silly, but she'd also do that if we suggested that murder, torture, genocide, brutal oppression, and child abuse are ethically fraught so
 
See, I'm not against that kind of dilemma! I think it's a good trade off for what's otherwise an Insight about Good Behavior in your community.
 
yrsillar said:
As far as counter intel goes, no the insight will not prevent you from auditing your own community and organizations within it, like your right to do so is pretty firmly written into the expected social contract here, and does not trigger a heart demon, because there is no expectation of privacy in that sphere.
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Ok but we also have:
  • Trust arises from choice. Love arises from trust. There can be no perfect safety, save in death. For love or trust to exist, so must the chance of heartbreak and betrayal. (Courage, Choice, Expression)
which was kind of about people having the right to privacy and secrets.

So what happens when we combine these two? 🤔
 
I... wait, is that about secrets? Isn't it actually the case that the other Insight we could have taken at some point fits privacy more?

It's not like we're demanding perfect safety by auditing or whatnot?
 
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