What should your focus for the rest of the Quest be?


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TL;DR: "There's no way to make a fully functioning lifeform from whole cloth outside of No Shit Miracles from the Star Child flexing hard, and just trying is an act of hubris beyond measure. That being said, Life interacting with Life creating More Life is just a natural part of the universe, and the rise of Machine Spirits from interaction with the people who forge and revere them is a natural consequence, another form of life and a tiny miracle in its own way."

EVEN MORE TL; DR: "Sometimes your ship becomes self-aware and that's fine as long as it happened naturally and not because someone programmed it to do so. The dividing line between a True Soul and an Artificial One is History and Experience, lacking that in favor of pure Logic or Reason is a recipe for calamity.

THE MOST TL ; VMDR: "Free-Range Souls are better than Super Science Code"
alright what happens when the Free ranging souls want to create life of their own? like 2 machine spirits with souls start interacting with one another over a decade, can't they create anther soul?

do we give them the right other souls? how many can they create? will we limit the rate of creation? ban it entirely?

Can Artificial Life born from Flesh have a Soul?
does artificial life like clones have souls? can a clone born from a cloning vat that has a machine spirit/soul also have a soul?
 
alright what happens when the Free ranging souls want to create life of their own? like 2 machine spirits with souls start interacting with one another over a decade, can't they create anther soul?

do we give them the right other souls? how many can they create? will we limit the rate of creation? ban it entirely?


does artificial life like clones have souls? can a clone born from a cloning vat that has a machine spirit/soul also have a soul?

i mean for the first they have a narrative aswell so it somewhat protects them but we should put a limit on it so if they lived longer or have affected many battles that creates a greater narrative protection. but it would prolly have to be closely watched for chaos influence

2nd
clones can have souls but they are broken things that should not have been made they represent us stitching fragments of the species narrative to them in a horrible algamation that is weak to the predators of the sea.

and the rest of the question no clue
 
Doesn't The Leagues of Votann and dark eldar have cloning technology?
You do too, a lot of people have that. Krieger are also clones. Like the latter, you also decant those clones (like your pilots) at the earliest possibility to have them grow like natural born children.

The difference between a clone and Artificial Life from Flesh is that the latter is talking about stuff like Homunculi.
 
Doesn't The Leagues of Votann and dark eldar have cloning technology?

Aren't the latter basically non-functional without horribly eating souls, and the former ossifying like crazy?

Basically, you can clone, as long as they grow up normally. It's when you start fucking around with instant people that things go horribly wrong.
 
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Doesn't The Leagues of Votann and dark eldar have cloning technology?

True,but also the vottan and eldar have a higher knowledge base on how to manipulate souls through bio-engineering

They likely solved the split soul issue long ago

Aren't the latter basically non-functional without horribly eating souls, and the former ossifying like crazy?

Basically, you can clone, as long as they grow up normally. It's when you start fucking around with instant people that things go horribly wrong.

On the dark eldar,the soul eating isnt caused by being clones

Is caused by being eldar and having direct link to slaneesh

And the kins issue is that their culture is built around ancestor worship and mind uploading into their super computers after death

The votann super computers lack the capacity for it and so they begin lagging

As the kin rely on the votann for guidance,they are culturally and societally stagnant as result

The ossification of their society isnt because they are clones,is because they are dependant the ever slowing,ever degrading wisdom of their votanns
 
There we go.

Now, while the theology and politics are beyond me, I broadly think...

"You shouldn't try to create Artificial Life, because there's not really any way to do it ethically, a living being is the sum of their experiences--and sort of by definition, creating an artifical lifeform in it's final state is not going to have any experiences to give it any context to what it knows, the universe is impossibly vast and no mortal being can conceivably account for every variable in their design, only a being with absolute Knowledge could hope to do so with any chance of success."

"That isn't to say a Soul can't be born through the accumulation of Experiences and Interaction with people over time. A well tested, well refined tool that has been home, aid, and guardian to People over countless years cannot be said to lack Experience. The Machine Spirits that rise naturally from more complex arts are a reflection of these Experiences, and much as a child can pattern themselves off of the community they are born in--for good or ill--so too can the Machine Spirit. This is the proper path. A Machine Spirit treated with care and reverence will be a holy spirit, and a boon to their people. One abused and neglected--like a feral child--may turn to darker paths, and this must be avoided."

"Broadly, the major distinction is Experience, it is very difficult to intentionally create a fully functioning being from base materials, and certainly out of the reach of mortal minds and hand. Life arising through interactions with Life though? Can that truly be called artificial anymore?"

TL;DR: "There's no way to make a fully functioning lifeform from whole cloth outside of No Shit Miracles from the Star Child flexing hard, and just trying is an act of hubris beyond measure. That being said, Life interacting with Life creating More Life is just a natural part of the universe, and the rise of Machine Spirits from interaction with the people who forge and revere them is a natural consequence, another form of life and a tiny miracle in its own way."

EVEN MORE TL; DR: "Sometimes your ship becomes self-aware and that's fine as long as it happened naturally and not because someone programmed it to do so. The dividing line between a True Soul and an Artificial One is History and Experience, lacking that in favor of pure Logic or Reason is a recipe for calamity.

THE MOST TL ; VMDR: "Free-Range Souls are better than Super Science Code, and there's no way to just print off life in job lots, whether it be digital or organic"

I would argue that such beings are not abominations per se. But the act of trying to create them deliberately, in a moral way is an act of hubris. It will be an effort of trial, failure, and analysis, and will be a road paved with the corpses of those attempts that were failures. You cannot walk this road without the risk of treading a path of blasphemy. It is hubris to think *you* can do it where others have failed, and so it is better not to attempt it at all.
 
THE MOST TL ; VMDR: "Free-Range Souls are better than Super Science Code, and there's no way to just print off life in job lots, whether it be digital or organic"

*looks at the kins*

Not necesarily

But the level of science and knowledge needed to make stable and mass produced artificial souls is well above our capabilities

And even so,technical issues aside,there is the moral issue that making life without attachments and experience can be rather cruel on itself (imagine being born as a full blowm adult,having no friends,no childhood memories,no foundational experiences etc)

Artificial souls creation shouldnt be banned on a rather xenophobic conception of "aryan natural superior soul"

But rather in the conception of "artificial life usually skips a shiton of life stages that ensure life has value, is a rather lonely existance"
 
The decisions were reached, orders were given, documents prepared, velum produced in industrial quantities, servitors from the humble servo-skull with attached auto-quills to the venerable ancients wielding entire segments of room-filling

Internal Security Systems - Turrets, Gun-Servitors, crew training, and armored bunkers at strategic locations will make a boarder's life hell.

where all future ships of the Candle Keepers would be created was the omnipresence of paper, velum, servo-skulls, and ink. Servitors with auto-quills were busy writing down information

If we do, we honestly fucking shouldn't. And this goes double for Servitorization.

Yeah, I do recall Servitors being mentioned. We should probably address that for the horror it is.
it sadly appears we do use Servitors so yah we should prob adress that even if we have to take a infra hit
 
What about Servitors or making then? Do we make servitors?
You do make Servitors, but you make cloned human "shells" to then implant a basic fusion of wetware-brains and cogitators into them. The "brains" are basically only movement and reaction cogitation, while the cogitator is the "higher" function of the intelligence, such as understanding speech, following orders, incredibly basic problem-solving abilities (moving around obstacles), etc.

You do not servitorize people. Anyone who does a crime deserving of such in your eyes is just executed instead.
it sadly appears we do use Servitors so yah we should prob adress that even if we have to take a infra hit
That'd be -2 to everything, please and thank you.
You can be sentenced to servitorization but a lot of servitors are just cloned human parts.
You do not sentence anyone to servitorization. That was replaced with the death sentence.
 
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You do make Servitors, but you make cloned human "shells" to then implant a basic fusion of wetware-brains and cogitators into them. The "brains" are basically only movement and reaction cogitation, while the cogitator is the "higher" function of the intelligence, such as understanding speech, following orders, incredibly basic problem-solving abilities (moving around obstacles), etc.

You do not servitorize people. Anyone who does a crime deserving of such in your eyes is just executed instead.

That'd be -2 to everything, please and thank you.
You do not sentence anyone to servitorization. That was replaced with the death sentence.
I mean even in the Imperium, there literally are not enough criminals to supply the demand for servitors and so most are just assembled meat robots.

Our only innovation is we no longer sentence people to be turned into servitors.
 
Yeah, while it needs to be fluffed up, the general main thrust I feel is "You can't Make a soul or genuine intellect from just nothing but calculations and cleverness, because doing so requires perfect knowledge and that's beyond anything except perhaps the Omnissiah. But it's not impossible for one to emerge through experience and interaction over time, with Machine Spirits being a decent example of a step towards that.

The question then, is "Define Artificial". Is someone born from an iron womb less of a person because they weren't born in the traditional fashion? Of course not. Are adherents of the Motive Force or the Omnissiah artificial simply because they choose to embrace steel over flesh? Of course not. What is most important is History, a clear chain of cause and effect that leads to the present self. Experience accumulated over time that lingers, even should the mind falter. Fundamentally skipping steps in that journey--whether that be through sorcery, science, or an obsession with filling out numbers to meet some quota--is inviting fouler beings to fill those voids, and that can only bring calamity.

TL;DR: "It's not what you're made of, it's what you do, and you can't get anything good by spitting out a being fully formed in body and mind and skip the steps of development that normally help them attain self-awareness. There is no cheat code to simply just "Acquire AI and Win", or "Clone a working template and win". Even a fully synthetic lifeform needs to interact with baseline reality and accumulate experience to be called something with a true soul, not simply "Programmed" to be exceptional. There are no shortcuts, and if you think you found one, someone is trying to take you for a ride.

We know for a fact after all that even once a Tech Priest has gone so deep into transhumanism that there's basically nothing left of the being they're born as, they still exist as themselves--but that's because they did it bit by bit, of their own will. An Artificial Being has no history, they were spit out fully formed from nothing. It should be noted that even the Primarchs were born as children, and heavily influenced by their surroundings and home culture.
 
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[X] The Laurent
This is not a vote i am capable of writing up a vote for but i know the Laurent and trust he will lead us to a good answer.
 
[X] The "Origen" of Souls.
-[X] "On The Creation of Souls" by Priest Evreaux Origen of Droma III has through scholarly debate and argument become the leading tome on this issue, and it has been adopted as of 273 M42, after lengthy and rather vicious debate, as the primary and most theologically correct interpretation. Indeed, in histories of the Church afterward, the works of this priest, nearly eighty years old by this point, would be deemed as the one always accepted even though Hipolyte of the Station's more permissive version reigned supreme in the first century of the Star Child Faith.
--[X] Key elements of this include a lengthy discussion of what makes something artificial. It highlights intent as the key element of artifice. A regular person born of an iron womb who then grew up as normal was not artificial, but a clone grown as a slave-soldier was, with Servitors occupying a slightly awkward grey area. Instead, the Five-Fold Criterion determines whether the Star-Child wills that an Artificial Life is Ensouled.
--[X] The five points are... 1) History, that is to say that in order to be a life, a life must be able to be lived, 2) Affinity, a life is not a life entirely divorced and divided from others, and thus a creature that cannot communicate and cannot befriend others cannot be said to have a soul, no matter how intelligent 3) Sapience, that is to say that, as beloved as they are, and as much as they may have souls, pet animals of the sort found on many worlds are not Ensouled in the same way as a person would be, though their lives should still be valued, for cruelty to those lesser than you is a sign of madness. 4) Capacity to Believe. A Soul may well reject the Star Child: Xenos that do so, as damned as they are and as much as those who do so and attack the Star Child's followers are to be killed, are still People, are still Beings With Souls. 5) An Understanding of Themselves. I think therefore I am, as said by the Great Ancient Philosopher Plotos the Great, conqueror of an entire Terran Kingdom, or so the records we have indicate.
--[X] Then we must ask, can the Motive Force within a Machine create Artificial Life with a Soul? The answer is yes, see the points beyond. But are Machine Spirits Souls? In most cases no, through the above criteria, though there are always exceptions. Instead they are what might be called Transient souls, lowercase, such as that which might define animals. Within the boundaries and will of the Omnissiah, though, these Machine Spirits when they die are recycled, and are thus to be Honored as part of the Cycle of the Omnissiah-and-Motive-Force, even when they do not count as Soul.
--[X] To create artificial life that followers most but not all of the Five Points is Hubris, and to do so with all Five Points with the intent of using them as a tool is not just Hubris but also Cruelty and Slavery. That is to say, a Servitor while awkward fits essentially none of the points, but an attempt to create a Sapient, History-having, Affinity-possessing, Believing being who through a lack of Themselves can be controlled is simply an exercise in skirting the laws of Slavery.
--[X] Is there Artificial Life that is Anathema to the Star Child? In this, Origen rejects strongly the claim that to use the framing of Anathema is to stigmatize Souls. Instead, in the manner of the Ultra-Radical Traditionalist Crusaders faction that has grown more influential with the continued Conquests of Liberty enacted by the Faith, he claims that there are also non-Artificfial Souls that can become Anathema by the Paths they walk and by their deeds, such as someone who warps themselves into a monster under Chaos, a Soul born in the Star Child's light that nonetheless becomes something Inhuman--and Origen of Droma III is more skeptical of Xenos than many, thus this phrase--something not merely to be led away from Evil, as even someone who has worshiped Chaos but recognized Their Folly can, but instead to be destroyed.
--[X] So yes, there is Artificial Life that is Anathema to the Star Child, though it is still Ensouled, and must be Judged by its Deeds.
--[X] Finally, any and all of this may be ignored by the provision of a Miracle, by which even those beyond redemption can become something better through the will of the Star Child. Or through which a Soul may be accidentally created.
--[X] Addendum: Less orthodox is the addendum he added that claims that the Five's absolute knowledge of All Things mean that Souls must have always existed, and that therefore if a Machine is deemed to have a Soul it already existed and was granted by the Star Child. The Pre-History of souls is a controversial topic, as it calls into question the understanding of when, whether with Artificial or Natural Life, the Soul entered the body, which... well, let us say that there are at least a few verbal knife-fights following the ruling, and that by 278 M42, this final portion of the work is declared to be Not A Part of the Work, though it is not declared heresy, simply not canonized, leaving the debate to rage for centuries to come...


It's time for more Early Christian Theology, with our favorite weird fucker, Origen of Alexandria. Though by now the claims that he Castrated himself as part of some weird religious thing are kinda debated? But that's the traditional story, so let's go with that for this Not!Origen. :V

Also, he's both a Church Father IRL and ALSO has parts of his doctrine declared Anathema, ironically enough.
 
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