- Location
- Dallas Texas
True, loser dragon with a marriage fetish.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Yeah, but I bet we could also make a device like this and we don't need remote connection to add cyber devils to something.
I just don't see a lot of netrunner cyber duels being relevant to the quest, and I think it's a mistake to add things for the sake of adding them.
There could be cool things to include here, but charms that don't really make a significant difference in anything we're likely to do or that are core to our interests just wastes the themes.
Given the direction we're already going it's make more sense to me to get a charm that lets us play more at being a supernatural sovereign than trying to be a super hacker.
For Example:
The idea here is that if say the NSA wants to read your emails an automated data collection system would crash, or "accidentally" be configured with bad parameters that don't actually flag your messages. An agent personally logging into your account could read what they please - though the most damaging might end up being sorted into the oddest of places, making manually finding them complicated.
I also think it would be neat if using this on cyber devils temporarily let them move between host machines on their own, as unoccupied computers all but invite them to come in.
If this seems overpowered it's more a matter of context than anything else. If we were in the hell of boiling oil all the liquid charms would immediately seem just as bullshit. Not our fault that earth is deliberately creating conditions that happen to help us.
This is a lot more on brand for Molly with her 0 computer, 0 science, and 2 technology stat line.
Sure we can make it use other skills, but fundamentally she isn't a computer person who actually does this stuff herself. She's a demon queen who probably couldn't use computers for more than basic google searches without making her devices smart enough to handle the details themselves.
I don't understand where you're coming from.
You're suggesting paying through the nose for the privilege of paying even more to buy things we can't activate without spending a third our essence pool to then burn even more motes to use*.
Practically speaking this would eat huge quantities of exp and then require most of our essence pool to get some of the things a solar can do. It's a grand proclamation that then immediately falls flat because it's basically impossible actually use it for anything.
Thematically you're not letting the infernals grow into something new, you're trying to claw back the past and make Molly into something she isn't. Being something mixing solars and primordials shouldn't become directly adding charms from both.
They don't need to go deeper into Yozi concepts directly, but this isn't a good way to bring in something else.
* say the first effect we want to go for is something neat like You Can Be More. We'd need to spend 35 exp (15 for the base charm, 20 for the solar one) to get it. Then on a scene where we want to use it spend 10 essence just to turn it on.
Every additional charm will diffuse the exp overhead more, but if you pick something smaller and cheaper to use we'd still choke on the up front essence cost.
[X] Plan Talk then walk
-[X] Ask Olga about something
--[X] Interesting or important and interesting locations in town, both mundane and supernatural. Popular local hangouts, historical monuments, and dragon nests, stuff like that.
--[X] Her Yabluchnyk recipe, this stuff's really good
-[X] Bid Olga farewell
--[X] Visit the university grounds, you are curious as to what Johann of Cleves was meant to have done with the body of Aleron LaFortier had he slain him
-[X] Ask Olga about something
--[X] Interesting or important and interesting locations in town, both mundane and supernatural. Popular local hangouts, historical monuments, and dragon nests, stuff like that.
--[X] Her Yabluchnyk recipe, this stuff's really good
-[X] Bid Olga farewell
--[X] Visit the university grounds, you are curious as to what Johann of Cleves was meant to have done with the body of Aleron LaFortier had he slain him
We have a very different perspective on this.
Mechanically, I suggested alternatives for balancing and working the issues out. Rolling willpower for access to the charms might work better.
Thematically, as I said, we have a very different perspective on this. Let me try and formulate my thoughts before I go to sleep:
1) Infernals are, by design, supposed to be sh*t celestial exalted. Literally so. They are a result of insane, crippled, and filled to the brim with spite and hate Yozi profaning, desecrating, warping the weapons that made them who they are, made by their most hated peer, and exclusively accessible by mortals, a kind of existence they, at best, find insignificant. They were made out of absolute necessity and for the lack of better options, and through the alliance with Neverborn, almost certainly existences that invoke revulsion and horror in the Yozi. And they were made when Yozi knew that those Neverborn got the better of them in their deal.
And after all that, the infernal exaltations were left to wallow in spiritual filth for untold eras, further polluting them. They are, metaphorically, masterwork arrows and swords liberally smeared with sh*t in order to infect the wounds they inflict.
2) Infernals are supposed to have the potential to surpass not just Yozi, but also Primordials at their prime. To become not just more powerful, but something qualitatively greater than the Architects of Creation. It's not a potential that Yozi anticipated when making them. It's not a potential they could see. And this means it's not a potential introduced by their designs. It comes from the parts of the Exaltation that Yozi cannot bring themselves to treat as important, as signficiant, as valuable. Ie mortal part. Human part. Thus, the transcendent epiphany, the start of the path to becoming something more, to me, cannot be "I completely abandon my humanity in favor of being a living city / galaxy / set of laws".
3) Solars are the most human exalted of them all. They are more than human, not "human, but different / not human at all". And Solars are supposed to have unlimited potential, to one day surpass the incarna, and to keep growing. All the while remaining human, not becoming something completely different. Not ever-shifting god beast lunars. Not elemental dragons. Not metropoli Alchemicals. Humans, but more.
4) Getting access to solar charms is supposed to represent the following things:
4.1) Overcoming Yozi resentment and hatred of the solars, the desire to profane and destroy them. Solars work. They were the ones at the forefront of the fight against Primordials. Learn from them, and use their tricks (charms) against them. It's overcoming them by making their tools your own.
4.2) Elevating your human part to the level of your primordial part, because Infernal Exaltation is about a birth of a new Primordial, Solar exaltation is about elevating a mortal to the level they contest with said primordial, and Devil Tiger path is about both working together so 1+1=11 to me.
4.3) Overcoming the defeat in general, the corruption in general, the spiritual filth in general, to see what lies beneath.
I honestly don't get the dislike solars get.
I mean, something like
The Path Unending
The Yozis do not know what they have wrought. They sought biddable champions wearing gilded collars, gestalt-reflections of their own magnificence. But the Green Sun Princes are more than their makers ever anticipated. Within them sleeps a greater power than the titans' own: the power to transcend Yozi nature and be reborn. A new era is at hand. In it, Creation will see the birth of new Primordialss, backed by the power of Solar Exaltation.
System:
The Infernal adds one new Signature Charm to her shintai form. This Charm may be purchased as many times as desired, but while the Infernal has more purchases of this Charm than her Essence rating, she suffers one permanent derangement (see V20, p. 290-293, W20, p. 485-486, or M20, p. 649-650) per purchase over that limit, as her soul is consumed by the inhuman transformation and perspetctive.
Is easy. Maybe slap "roll Willpower 10 - the number of The Path Unending purchases. On success, the signature charms become active in the Infernal's normal form for a scene" or something similar (pay essence, or willpower, etc) on it too, on account of shintai being less useable than Lunar Rage form.
But, honestly, this is boring. Personally, I find my version much more interesting. But I understand that others might fell the opposite way.
Keep in mind 'where are the Dragons' nests' is a pretty hard question, especially since most cities do not even have one at all.
Anyway good night guys
The part I fundamentally disagree with is that such an ascension is basically getting to be a solar again, but now you have to jump through hoops to use those abilities.
I also disagree with the idea that the primordials aren't bringing something to the equation, perhaps even the bulk of it in the same way steel is mostly iron. The carbon makes the alloy stronger, but it isn't the bulk of the alloy.
They're supposed to overcome the maddened nature of the Yozi to become something more than either, but to me that reads as something different from both.
Literally stapling solar charms on the side with no actual change in either side as a result of the mixing is undercutting what they're supposed to be doing.
It's not about abandoning being human, but rather implementing something human at the fundamental level primordials operate on.
- Location
- Estonia
-[] The Clockwork Man out front
If this is a sentient construct with a soul, or even sapient, then I want to know about it. If it's not, but is still "smart" enough to run a store, then that sounds useful, too.
Also, is Olga one of the WW2 female Soviet snipers? Because then her becoming an einherjar is a delicious fuck you to Nazis.
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Infernals don't have a bit of Sun in them. The Primoridals removed it and replaced it with their own power.
That is fundamentally not true they weren't willing to sacrifice Jack and or shit to make their own chosen.
- Location
- Dallas Texas
Huh, when did we pick up the (Calling the Calibration Gate) ancient sorcery? It on our character sheet but I don't think we have ever used it. Can we use it to open a door to our hell? Then we can get tanks and much larger groups and the like through rather then just small squads. Unless I missed us using it some other time.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We picked it up because Uju32 was certain that we were somehow going to end up trapped Outside in Las Vegas and he wanted us to have a way to get home. Well he wanted to get the Hellwalker technique, but this was slightly cheaper. No we can't use it to access our Hell and when going to the Never-Never our friends have less expensive ways of making a portal. I was hoping that since the Calibration Gate in the source was able to go to many different other worlds that it would be more flexible then normal Never-Never portals, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I am actually having doubts that we will ever use it.
Maybe if say we want to break into Hade's vault we will be able to go directly inside rather than at the outside of the gauntlet of defenses?
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- Location
- Dallas Texas
Eh, I'm sure we will be able to use it sometime. We haven't delt with the nevernever too much yet in the quest, but being able to open a gate regardless of Gauntlet strength, or if we are just ok our own, should be useful eventually.
What happenes if we cast CtCG from within our hell?
Even if we don't want to take the school option good dragon nests that don't have connected owners are pretty valuable. If there's a quality one nearby with tragically dead or unpopular owners then taking it over would be worth our trouble.
If we really don't want to bother with a presence at all and don't mind freaking people out a tad we can also just steal it. There's a splendor that requires a dragon nest as a reagent but allows you to pop up a temporary one somewhere else when you turn it on.
So we could just pocket one on our way out of town to use as a portable crafting station, power core of a magitech mecha, some sort of mass vampire feeding trough, or something like that.
- Location
- Dallas Texas
I'm thinking… Satellite Laser. You never know when you need to smite something from space with a giant laser! Masquerade, you say? Is that something you can eat?
Now that I'm actually thinking about that would be sick, since we could just build it directly in orbit if we really wanted.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
@DragonParadox : Did Molly give Hand of Gently Falling Ash and they other some metals or other recognition? Because they performed really well and were injured badly in the line of duty.
First: why not? Transhumanism is very much in theme for infernals, and *I abandon this shitty human body and its limitations to become a living city/galaxy/set of laws* works for that.
You don't need to be human to be humane.
Second:
Which is precisely why they're the absolute worst fit for infernals ascension. Solars are *humans but more*, infernals are not, at all.
Becoming a worst solar is countertheme here.
As I mentioned, an Infernal going for the Devil Tiger route is supposed to become more than their Yozi makers. More, in a qualitative, if not power scale, sense, than even Primordials who Yozi once were. This, to me, has several critical criteria:
1) The end state cannot be Creature of Darkness, especially in the later ages, where CoD isn't Sol's personal shitlist, but is essentially indicator of spiritual pollution. Or it has to redefine "Creature of Darkness" somehow.
2) The end state cannot be the same as Primordials that came before. It has to have either qualities, or inherent potential to develop qualities that Primordials just didn't have. It cannot be limited in the same way.
From the design perspective, to me, getting the ability to operate outside one's splat seems like a good thematic fit for point two. Infernal charms are yozi charms, which are corrupted / defiled / broken down primordial charms. So, getting access to non-primordial charms is an easy thematic shorthand for "I have transcended my type limitations, and have developed to become something new, more than a sum of my parts". The charm set that is most appropriate for a Devil Tiger to get access to is a Solar one:
1) lorewise, because Infernal exaltations were solar ones at some point, and, due to their indestructible nature, still have all the solar exaltation structures and powers
2) Thematically, because Solar themes are perfection, and mortals growing to be more. Also because Solars defeated Primordials, so a new kind of Primordial incorporating solar's themes into themselves, to be both Primordial+ and Solar+, greater than either part, is very appropriate
3) Mechanically, because, as I said, Solar splat and Infernal splat use different approaches to empowerment in many cases. I'll do a detailed breakdown later (on weekend, probably), but Solars function differently from Infernals.
However, within a roleplaying game, we obviously cannot play as the end product of this path. The game's mechanics, and the story's narrative cannot support such a being as the primary protagonist we the players get to control. So, any charm, magic, merit, background, etc that is meant to represent these themes can only deal with first steps on the path to the endstate described above. This means that it has to have drawbacks or limitations. Only temporary or limited access to other splat charms. Punishment / backlash mechanics when invoking your new state of being. Additional costs of either willpower (to represent pushing yourself beyond your present limitations), or essence (to represent the exertion of arcane might and potential upon reality and one's self).
From there, it's a matter of balance.
There's a difference between human nature and human limits. I am talking about human nature.
[X] Ask Olga about something
-[X] The Clockwork Man out front
-[X] The Clockwork Man out front
Ok, I'll let's correct it a bit. Also I'll add the clockwork man's question.
[X] Plan Talk then walk
-[X] Ask Olga about something
--[X] Interesting or important and interesting locations in town, both mundane and supernatural. Popular local hangouts, historical monuments, places of arcane power, stuff like that.
--[X] Her Yabluchnyk recipe, this stuff's really good
--[X] The Clockwork Man out front
-[X] Bid Olga farewell
--[X] Visit the university grounds, you are curious as to what Johann of Cleves was meant to have done with the body of Aleron LaFortier had he slain him
- Location
- washington
Honestly you talk about balance but if we ever actually reach devil tiger we should be shit stomping most of the setting. We should be getting world wide affects and shit. We should be able to do bullshit like dropping a city on someone or being able to remember all the information of our hells libraries with a charm like the archive. Balance should not be as much of a concern then because to pose actual challenges to us dp should be throwing alliances of several Yama kings at once, the strongest of gods in their domains, archangels and so on. Anything that should trouble us at that point should be able to fuck with the entire planet at the very least casually to actually cause us harm.
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