Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

uju32 · Mar 3, 2024

TheGrape said:
Imagine the hilarity of showing up to fight Nemesis as the Lord of Slowest Terror while all the Walkers are wondering how the heck their liege managed to bypass the Gates.

Alternatively, think of just fucking with people randomly by turning off your doom aura at irregular hours.
Do it the first couple times to lull them into a false sense of security.
Then kill someone/something the next time. Or topple a government.

Yog said:
We have ATP for that.

ATP hides you from people with insufficient Willpower.
It doesnt hide you from machine sensors, the traces of what you've done, or places you've been. And it doesnt hide you from scrying/divination.

BMI potentially allows you to avoid leaving traces in the first place if it can hide your aura.

Yog said:
That's self-defeating and forces those who aren't watching us right now to watch us 24/7. And when those minor talents observe us without BMI, that malus is coming back in force, and worse than before.

No it isnt.
The point of having achieved an introduction first allows us to forestall any alarm.
See Cauldron, again.

Yog said:
It doesn't. Clones get passives, so they should get DPE, and should feel just like normal Molly. In fact, clones would be unable to disguise themselves with BMI, which makes it easier, not harder, to separate Molly and her clone.

I am reasonably sure that, whatever passives are on the table, Clones aint getting DPE.
But this leads into a discussion of SG which is beyond this discussion

Yog said:
It forces Anduriel, He Who Walks Behind, and USA government to have eyes on Molly at all times.

If they could, they already would.
Just like if they could, they would watch Dresden, the Senior Council, Mab and like several hundred other people all the goddamn time.

This shit aint new.
Powerful Sidhe, and other powerful supernaturals walk around incognito routinely because they figure out how to hide themselves and their presence.

Jenny Greenteeth impersonated the fiancee of a werewolf at his wedding, and the dude could not tell.

Dresden couldnt tell Summer Lady Aurora was anything other than a random painter-artist when he first met her.
The Leanansidhe spent a significant amount of time as the Ragged Lady during Ghost Story, and if Molly didnt tell Dresden, noone would know.

Mab walks around in the real world on occasion, and if she doesnt specifically want you to know, you wont; Dresden was sitting across from her in Summer Knight, and even after he figured out she was Fae by throwing iron at her, he couldnt tell her power level at any point during that meeting.

Quintus Cassius the Denarian impersonated a Vatican official, and Dresden couldnt tell despite meeting him in Denarian form multiple times.

The Great Dragon Ferrovax was at the Rampire ball in Grave Peril, and Dresden couldnt tell he was talking to a Power.
When the Titan Ethniu showed up at the peace conference in Peace Talks? Nobody even knew she was around and in the building until she just to reveal herself. Not even Mab.

And of course, Angels and Archangels are never seen as themselves unless they choose to be seen.

This would just be Molly acquiring the same sort of hiding ability that other high-level actors have routinely wielded at their leisure.

dragon · Mar 3, 2024

[X] I Can See You, But You Can't See Me!

Goldfish · Mar 3, 2024

BoredMan said:
You just voted to have Molly tell everyone she has control over an entire nation/world. She is getting 24/7 surveillance from the US Gov while on American soil period.

Edit: Oh yeah for the others maybe but we are going to be getting that premium surveillance from the Gov at least. All of our internet activity anything they think they can get away with. We should put a cyberdevil in our computer.

The Carpenters are almost certainly going to be getting new neighbors soon.

Whether they decide to hide in plain sight (such as a newly wedded couple of unusually fit young professionals) or something more circumspect is still up in the air.

Zoolimar · Mar 3, 2024

Yog said:
Actually, I don't think so. They have limited attention span / possession slots. And Molly is "loud" enough that they can afford not to watch her 24/7, because it's noticeable when she starts to move. That goes out of the window if we get BMI and start using it.

They should be glad she is not a Sidereal.

uju32 · Mar 3, 2024

BoredMan said:
You just voted to have Molly tell everyone she has control over an entire nation/world. She is getting 24/7 surveillance from the US Gov while on American soil period.

Edit: Oh yeah for the others maybe but we are going to be getting that premium surveillance from the Gov at least. All of our internet activity anything they think they can get away with. We should put a cyberdevil in our computer.

Probably not, actually.
For much the same reason they know that Michael bears a Sword but there isnt anyone watching his home.

In the city? Sure, probably, if they have the resources to spare. Risking an incident by active routine surveillance? Probably not.
Especially when the chief executive on the other side is an 18-year old girl, and hormonal teenagers her age are not overly known for their temperance. Thats like winning big at gambling and then throwing all your winnings back into gambling.

EDIT
They already have Murphy in the city, after all.

===
That said, a significantly elevated profile was one of the consequences of voting for Vegas the way we did.
We cant just pretend it didnt happen, and not have it affect our spending plans.

BoredMan · Mar 3, 2024

uju32 said:
Especially when the chief executive on the other side is an 18-year old girl, and hormonal teenagers her age are not overly known for their temperance. Thats like winning big at gambling and then throwing all your winnings back into gambling.

That really depends on their judgement and there are multiple branches of the Gov that are aware of the supernatural with their own motives. The LoC wouldn't be the only ones aware of the treaty and everything discussed, I don't buy that every single one would decide not to at least have her general location tracked if possible.

DragonParadox · Mar 3, 2024

Er... guys, Molly is savvy enough about this that she would have some notion of the risk. If the government wants to track someone or form a profile and they do not want to poke them directly electronic surveillance seems likely. They are probably a lot more confident in that realm than dealing with whatever crazy mage senses the demon girl has.

Yog · Mar 3, 2024

uju32 said:
ATP hides you from people with insufficient Willpower.
It doesnt hide you from machine sensors, the traces of what you've done, or places you've been. And it doesnt hide you from scrying/divination.

BMI potentially allows you to avoid leaving traces in the first place if it can hide your aura.

You've specifically used "while in RVD state" as an example of usage. I was responding to that. In that state, ATP is fully equivalent, arguable better than BMI. If BMI even can be used for disguising RVD transport, since by transforming into an RVD state we are breaking the disguise.

uju32 said:
No it isnt.
The point of having achieved an introduction first allows us to forestall any alarm.
See Cauldron, again.

You and I have very different experience with people. Yes, without BMI initial introductions are harder, but with BMI the following interactions would be much, much harder still, due to sense of completely justified paranoia and betrayal.

uju32 said:
If they could, they already would.
Just like if they could, they would watch Dresden, the Senior Council, Mab and like several hundred other people all the goddamn time.

Limited attention span. Molly is "loud", it's easy to trace her movements, meaning they don't need to actually constantly watch her. Meaning that some things can slip through.

the DragonBard · Mar 3, 2024

TheGrape said:
Clones are our get of jail free card: even if someone manages to kill Molly, she can pop back up a few days later with only a marginal decrease in power (I assume dropping a level in Essence will seal off some of her Charms/abilities). Right now, without a Perfect Defense, we're playing rocket tag with everybody. We need the insurance.

You want a 1UP, get City Still Stands.
Does the same thing, but instantly activates Shintai and doesn't take days to trigger.
Only limit is that it's once per Story, or in our case, once per month.

Ivar · Mar 3, 2024

So, SGI has three problems and they all come from the fact that the clones in it are mortal (formally there are still ethics, but this has already been decided by the GM).
The first is information leaks through clones.
The second is turning clones into weapons using their metaphysical connection with Molly.
The third is possession and attempts to turn clones into vampires or other forms of clone theft.

If you have more problems with clones, post them and I'll add them to the list.

As people now propose to solve them, these are more passive charms, aka things that are in fact a generous offer from the GM to us. And through crafting protection for clones through Splendor. This has problems naturally. I propose to make a version of this charm that works under Molly thematicks with the following vanilla tweaks.

System: The Infernal spends 5 Essence and screams, issuing forth a crimson gale that resolves into a perfect copy of herself. This clone comes into the world naked, perfectly loyal to its creator, precisely aware of what it is, and in possession of the same personality and memories as the Infernal. It has the same Traits as the Infernal, but is completely mortal, with no magic of any sort.

Alternately, if the Infernal possesses a working uterus, she can use this Charm to impregnate herself. This parthenogenetic child will grow
up to be a perfect physical duplicate of the Infernal,but is otherwise a normal human being.

The Infernal can have up to her Essence rating in clones alive and active at once. By spending 1 Essence, she can cause a clone within her presence to unravel back into crimson wind which she absorbs, granting her all of the memories the clone accumulated during its existence. If the Infernal wishes, she may re-create specific absorbed clones in the future when using Splintered Gale Incarnation.

If the Infernal should ever die while any of her clones are abroad in the world, her body dissolves into a screaming wind that streams across the world and pours itself into the nearest clone. This destroys the clone's memories and identity as the Infernal takes over its body. Reincarnating in this fashion reduces the Infernal's Essence rating by 1. If this would reduce her to Essence 0, then reincarnation is impossible

Include Dragon Paradox statements about how the charm works in the description text. That is, clones die only if they are used for resurrection; otherwise, they return to Molly's soul. And maybe other tweaks like passive charms work for them.

For these two, I propose an option that changes the charm from creating clones to creating virtual sub-souls of Molly. Which are connected to her spiritual organs passively and can return her to the oversoul. This is of course only the first part, but it works on both changes made by Dragon Paradox.

This is already changing the process of creating clones...They now come without a body! But ok, that still spend five essence per clone. However, instead of creating a clone from essence, I now propose creating a clone using the technology of Molly's worldsoul and her creator skills in order to create bodies that her sub-souls can control. However, they can only be untethered from them by death...Like cyber devils. Yes, it's more complicated. but I will explain why to create bodies (in addition to maybe bonuses from bodies if GM allows it).

Such clones naturally cannot be revoked easy (relocation into a clone's body is considered destruction). This is a problem, but do we really need this option given Molly's morality?. But recarnation still works for them. When a clone becomes Molly Prime, its artificial body undergoes transmutation into the body of an infernal exalt.

And finally, solutions to the three problems above... We add a text to the charmthat talks about loyalty and other details. Namely, special protections from the bodies themselves or connections with Molly's main soul. Defenses would include preventing clones from being turned into creatures possessed by anything else. The inability to interrogate their minds without triggering countermeasures or even causing the clone to self-destruct. And finally, protection is the ability to break connections, making the clones completely magically inactive for the purposes of sympathetic magic. The only thing that might need to be added is camouflage so that clones cannot be distinguished from normal people.

I consider such a change to be quite simple and, in fact, a reasonable action. Yes, this will force us to make bodies for clones. But this can be included as crafting and technologies that do not require Exaltet Crafting from us. Yes, this may be a waste of some time. But if you take vanilla clones, you still have to spend time protecting them. Yes, this is a proposal sheet, not a ready-made charm. But my English sucks and I hope that someone else can write the finished text.

BronzeTongue · Mar 3, 2024

uju32 said:
Im gonna have to go back and check. Because Im pretty sure there's charms for this.

I was surprised too, it's possible I missed something but the closest to a counter attack charm that I saw was the one that lets them explode zombies they control after someone damages them. Nothing like our "free attack for every one that someone attempts against you regardless of how many that is" charm.

uju32 · Mar 3, 2024

BoredMan said:
That really depends on their judgement and there are multiple branches of the Gov that are aware of the supernatural with their own motives. The LoC wouldn't be the only ones aware of the treaty and everything discussed, I don't buy that every single one would decide not to at least have her general location tracked if possible.

I think its instructive that it was the Library that showed up in Vegas, not anyone else.
Even if others exist, I dont think they have the resources or the clout to invest in just one supernatural actor like Molly.
Especially if the Library warns them.

DragonParadox said:
Er... guys, Molly is savvy enough about this that she would have some notion of the risk. If the government wants to track someone or form a profile and they do not want to poke them directly electronic surveillance seems likely. They are probably a lot more confident in that realm than dealing with whatever crazy mage senses the demon girl has.

The Reds and Whites use a fair bit of electronic communications, the White Council dont.
And electronics historically have issues around powerful supernaturals.

In this case, the LoC just had first contact with a technologically advanced new actor with access to both magic and tech, and allegedly the resources and population of a whole world-sized realm.
They are going to look at whats available to POTUS, and extrapolate from there.

Would they reasonably expect electronic surveillance to work?

EDIT
I mean, War on Terror legislation makes electronic surveillance inside the US easier than before, but what does that matter if you're getting hit by a Fortune effect that fucks any and all efforts to do that sort of covert surveillance?

BoredMan · Mar 3, 2024

Yog said:
Yes, without BMI initial introductions are harder, but with BMI the following interactions would be much, much harder still, due to sense of completely justified paranoia and betrayal.

I can sort of see the logic amongst the weaker supernaturals who don't know of Molly but high tier characters in setting do it all the time it's not a faux pas and a lot of people in the hidden world should know of Molly's feats anyway so they wouldn't be surprised or feel betrayed.

Yog said:
Molly is "loud", it's easy to trace her movements, meaning they don't need to actually constantly watch her.

Are you talking about the supernatural world or the Gov?

BoredMan · Mar 3, 2024

uju32 said:
Even if others exist, I dont think they have the resources or the clout to invest in just one supernatural actor like Molly.

Again she's a representative of an entire nation/world and they know where she lives. It's crazy to think she wouldn't be monitored from a distance with electronic surveillance at least.

Nyarky · Mar 3, 2024

Ivar said:
As for clones, I want to ask DragonParadox about the possibility of making a homebrew version of the charm. As a start to homebrew, charm modifications seem reasonable to me.

DragonParadox said:
That would be reasonable sure.

Ok, with this confirmed, I think it is very important to work on that:

First thing to check is what part of the original charm has to go?

I think everyone can agree that the *the clones are bog standard humans* is the winner on that by far.

Seriously, I can accept it not wanting to allow you to have all the clones be as powerful as you, that would quickly get broken, but this is going way too far in the other direction.

So we want clones that are not standard humans, able to use essence at least a little, maybe have passives for sure.

Second is what can we give up in exchange for boosting that part?

The normally growing child can go, frankly, I don't even know what it's doing here, wrong hell for it.

Less clones would probably be one of the easiest thing to change, one less is already something that could be felt, maybe two at worst.

We could remove the signature, since people aren't even sure on what it gives anyway, it wouldn't be a great loss.

Actually... if we change the charm from an insurance in case of death to a pure action provider, we can simply remove the ability to reincarnate using a clone, that would put it more in line with how we want to use it anyway.

Also make explicit that it allows for simultaneous training.

Well, I can work on that a little, let me just:

The infernal shows her nature as a queen so great, her aspects walk by themselves.
System: The infernal spends five essence, and split it into a new body. She walks in two directions at once, creating a clone of herself. This clone is a perfect copy of the infernal and comes to the world naked, perfectly loyal to its creator, precisely aware of what it is, and in possession of the same memories and personality as the infernal. It has the same traits as the infernal, a pool of five essence maximum, and access to (don't know, 3?) active charms from the Infernal repertoire as well as all her passives charms. The infernal can have up to Essence minus one clone active at once. By spending one essence, the clone can spin itself out of existence, returning its experiences and memories to the infernal. If the Infernal wishes, she can recreate specific absorbed clones when using this charm.

Here, pretty sure it isn't going to be accepted as is, but at least the idea is out.

@DragonParadox, thoughts?

Anyone good at making charms, feel free to tweak it.

Edit:

Ivar said:
Snip

I see I wasn't the only one tolling on it, good, the more ideas, the fastest we can create a solution, and the fastest we can get an action generator online, which is something you always want sooner rather than later.

Ivar · Mar 3, 2024

Nyarky said:
Ok, with this confirmed, I think it is very important to work on that:

First thing to check is what part of the original charm has to go?

Creating bodies automatically is an obvious sacrifice IMHO. We can't create so many clones that replacing or creating their bodies would be a problem. And creating bodies for them and giving them to possess is incredibly thematic for Molly with her cyberdevils and creating bodies for Lush as part of her mythos.

I agree that if the DP allows we can make the clones a little stronger by crafting their bodies. This would be nice, but not necessary.

I agree that we can remove the text about childbirth and maybe make clones Essence Rating -1.

The signature needs to be reworked or removed, I agree.

I believe that reincarnation is too valuable to sacrifice. And additional training may be too strong with the current mechanics.

Edit What else can we add is permanent connected communication (including just implants with radio and telephone in their head)

Yog · Mar 3, 2024

BoredMan said:
I can sort of see the logic amongst the weaker supernaturals who don't know of Molly but high tier characters in setting do it all the time it's not a faux pas and a lot of people in the hidden world should know of Molly's feats anyway so they wouldn't be surprised or feel betrayed.

As far as I know, Mab and others on her level do not go around pretending to be mortals. Angels do, but they are a special case.

BoredMan said:
Are you talking about the supernatural world or the Gov?

Both.

Also, a point in regards to BMI: Any person, real or imagined. This doesn't limit us to mortals. This has two consequences:
1) We can potentially mess with magical oaths by disguising ourselves as one of the parties
2) At some point, we can seriously crash someone's party by imitating Ligier or Sol Invictus or Luna, and just "I am back, b*tches!" the situation. Because the charm doesn't limit us to persons at our essence level. Pretending to be an E10 incarna / fetich of a primordial should be possible.

Nyarky said:
k, with this confirmed, I think it is very important to work on that:

First thing to check is what part of the original charm has to go?

I think everyone can agree that the *the clones are bog standard humans* is the winner on that by far.

Seriously, I can accept it not wanting to allow you to have all the clones be as powerful as you, that would quickly get broken, but this is going way too far in the other direction.

So we want clones that are not standard humans, able to use essence at least a little, maybe have passives for sure.

Second is what can we give up in exchange for boosting that part?

The normally growing child can go, frankly, I don't even know what it's doing here, wrong hell for it.

Less clones would probably be one of the easiest thing to change, one less is already something that could be felt, maybe two at worst.

We could remove the signature, since people aren't even sure on what it gives anyway, it wouldn't be a great loss.

Actually... if we change the charm from an insurance in case of death to a pure action provider, we can simply remove the ability to reincarnate using a clone, that would put it more in line with how we want to use it anyway.

Also make explicit that it allows for simultaneous training.

Well, I can work on that a little, let me just:

The infernal shows her nature as a queen so great, her aspect walk by themselves.
System: The infernal spends five essence, and split it into a new body. She walks in two directions at once, creating a clone of herself. This clone is a perfect copy of the infernal and comes to the world naked, perfectly loyal to its creator, precisely aware of what it is, and in possession of the same memories and personality as the infernal. It has the same traits as the infernal, a pool of five essence maximum, and access to (don't know, 3?) active charms from the Infernal repertoire as well as all her passives charms. The infernal can have up to Essence minus one clone active at once. By spending one essence, the clone can spin itself out of existence, returning its experiences and memories to the infernal. If the Infernal wishes, she can recreate specific absorbed clones when using this charm.
Here, pretty sure it isn't going to be accepted as is, but at least the idea is out.

@DragonParadox, thoughts?

Anyone good at making charms, feel free to tweak it.

My opinion:
1) Have the clones and the original share the essence pool
2) Probably, for balance reasons, make it so only the original can restore essence in any way
3) Keep the weird self-impregnation, as that's the core of weird infernal toolset.

TheGrape · Mar 3, 2024

the DragonBard said:
You want a 1UP, get City Still Stands.
Does the same thing, but instantly activates Shintai and doesn't take days to trigger.
Only limit is that it's once per Story, or in our case, once per month.

Clones also give us the ability to learn soft skills without AP, and let us govern our inner world full-time. Not to mention City Still Stands still leaves you fighting in the same place where someone nearly killed you, while clones literally whisk you away to safety.

DragonParadox · Mar 3, 2024

uju32 said:
I think its instructive that it was the Library that showed up in Vegas, not anyone else.
Even if others exist, I dont think they have the resources or the clout to invest in just one supernatural actor like Molly.
Especially if the Library warns them.

The Reds and Whites use a fair bit of electronic communications, the White Council dont.
And electronics historically have issues around powerful supernaturals.

In this case, the LoC just had first contact with a technologically advanced new actor with access to both magic and tech, and allegedly the resources and population of a whole world-sized realm.
They are going to look at whats available to POTUS, and extrapolate from there.

Would they reasonably expect electronic surveillance to work?

EDIT
I mean, War on Terror legislation makes electronic surveillance inside the US easier than before, but what does that matter if you're getting hit by a Fortune effect that fucks any and all efforts to do that sort of covert surveillance?

Depends, who gets hit with the fortune effect? If Molly is the kind of actor to do that just finding that out could be valuable. Also as far as the tech goes they can reasonably assume there are some connectivity issues using literally alien tech as part of one's on line protection. I am not saying they are going to do it, just that it seems to Molly considerably more likely than agents in the bushes outside the Carpenter family home.

Yog · Mar 3, 2024

Lorewise, clones are essentially co-location, different projections of the same Dreamer Molly as her main body is. So - definitely the same mote pool.

I'll think and try to write my version later.

ImBuda · Mar 3, 2024

[X] Plan Feeding and Healing v2

Ivar · Mar 3, 2024

Yog said:
My opinion:
1) Have the clones and the original share the essence pool
2) Probably, for balance reasons, make it so only the original can restore essence in any way
3) Keep the weird self-impregnation, as that's the core of weird infernal toolset.

I think we're going too far in discussing clone essence. Maybe they can't use it at all, it's too difficult for them because of the molly connection. But yes, if they have it, it should be a single pool.

I agree with a single pool.

But the child needs a reflavor at a minimum.

And may I know what you think about the creation of bodies and my proposals?

DragonParadox · Mar 3, 2024

Yog said:
Also, a point in regards to BMI: Any person, real or imagined. This doesn't limit us to mortals. This has two consequences:
1) We can potentially mess with magical oaths by disguising ourselves as one of the parties
2) At some point, we can seriously crash someone's party by imitating Ligier or Sol Invictus or Luna, and just "I am back, b*tches!" the situation. Because the charm doesn't limit us to persons at our essence level. Pretending to be an E10 incarna / fetich of a primordial should be possible.

You guys definitely cannot do Sol, you do not know who that is. Liger is more possible you saw him repeatedly in your dreams, though you do not know what that is beyond 'The Sun before the Sun'. As to what reactions that would get.. well the Sight sees though BMI, but it takes effects of that power and puissance do do so.

BronzeTongue · Mar 3, 2024

Degorium said:
There's the thing the range of tricks that you can actually pull on a clone of Molly are not exceptionally wide. She still possesses innate counter Magic because she's aware of magic and has some even if she is just a mortal clone, if she still has a melee of five and a dexterity of four, there are a range of tricks that are possible I will admit but if you're trying to stop and Molly clone from fighting you or killing themselves I'm at a loss of how you could do that because there is no power that just works other than instant kill powers if you wanted to do anything other than murder there's a roll involved. Which means if the Clone possesses a means of self-termination that is near instant or a sword that's a fight instantly and which point Aid can come from any direction whether that be white Council order of cauldron ourselves drones commandeered by Iris, Our Father, our friends with their laser pistols. This is excluding the fact that maybe we don't even deploy them in the outside world and just purely internally which would allow us to actually get to know the nooks and crannies of our world.

Could you use punctuation and spacing when posting like this? It's a pain to read.

As to the content; no supernatural abilities cross over, so no exalted countermagic. Which means shelling out to learn how mortals do it, and operating a mortal dice limits.

The exp cost for making this work is 4-5 complete fomorian sorcerer PCs. Who still are too small time to handle the heat we're getting.

Seriously? She'll just counter spell it? "Just win, then there won't be any problems" is a nonsense defense.

BoredMan · Mar 3, 2024

Yog said:
As far as I know, Mab and others on her level do not go around pretending to be mortals

They literally do. Mab disguised herself as a mortal to meet Harry in his office IIRC. Not just mortals either Mab once disguised herself as a statue. It's a thing high tier characters do in setting if they can pull it off and see the need.

Yog said:
This has two consequences:

Dude this charm isn't going to freak people out anymore than any of our other bullshit charms your exaggerating to make a point. We would never start using it in such an idiotic way either everyone in thread knows how important trust in your word is in setting. These scenarios are just absurd we would never do them.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Ancalagon the Black

Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination

Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority

Dark Reaper

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Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority

Dark Reaper

Dark Reaper

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