Sterbelicht - One Sacrifice At A Time Against The Galaxy (40K)

[X] Taurus-Class Troopship

[X] [Frigate] Marine-class (7 DP)
-[X] Length - 1.700 Meters
-[X] Width - 400 Meters
-[X] Acceleration - 5 Gravities (+1)
-[X] Armor - Single Hull
-[X] Shields - Two Emitters
-[X] Weapons - 2x Light Lance Turrets, Small Hangars (-3)
-[X] Equipment - Small Troop Compartment, Dedicated Ortillery , Armored Lifepods (-5)

A troop transport with Lance Turrets for self defense and a hangar to escort the landing troops.

Oh, by the way, the Kil'drabi finished building their ship. Forgot to mention it in the last update, my bad!

[Kil'drabi] Pact of Our New Path-Class Battlecolony
-Length - 7.500 Meters
-Width - 750 Meters
-Acceleration - 2 Gravities
-Armor - Medium Double Hull
-Shields - One Array
-Weapons - 40x Medium Railgun Turrets, 2x Anti-Missile Missile Batteries
-Equipment - Large Storage Holds, Emergency Transition Warp Breakers, Fully Independent Ship Support Systems, Automated Internal Foundries, Genetic Lineage Memory Banks, Iron Wombs, Snapshot Pinpoint Targeting Solutions
-Detriments: Primitive Armor, Primitive Weaponry, Slow Crawler
-Closest Imperial Equivalent: Dauntless Mk.1 Light Cruiser

[X] Taurus-Class Troopship
-[X] Length - 1,600 (+1 DP)
-[X] Width - 350 (+1 DP)
-[X] Acceleration - 7 Gravities (-3 DP)
-[X] Armor - Single Hull
-[X] Shields - Two Emitters
-[X] Weapons - Small Hangars (-1 DP)
-[X] Equipment - Small Troop Compartment/Dedicated Ortillery/Strict Pilot Training (-5 DP)

[X] Taurus-Class Troopship

[X] [Frigate] Lightbringer-class
-[X] Length - 1.600 Meters (+1)
-[X] Width - 350 Meters (+1)
-[X] Acceleration - 5.5 Gravities
-[X] Armor - Single Hull
-[X] Shields - Two Emitters
-[X] Weapons - Light Prow Lance, Medium Lance Turrets, 2x Light Lance Turrets (-6)
-[X] Equipment - Small Troop Compartment, Pure Lenses (-3)

A troop carrier would be handy to have, but we also need it to be useful in space combat. But we don't want our precious troop transports to get killed in space. Hence beam spam sniper is a good combat role. I picked some of everything in terms of lances, because I'm not sure how they stack up individually, if the smaller maybe perform somewhat better against some targets, and so on.

Edit :
[X] [Frigate] Marine-class (7 DP)
This is also okay

Edit2:
It'd have been great to have troop transport capacity on the new frigate, but this is the only option competing with the garbage Taurus design in votes.
[X] Sagittarius-class Frigate

inirlan said:

I picked some of everything in terms of lances, because I'm not sure how they stack up individually, if the smaller maybe perform somewhat better against some targets, and so on.

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The size of weapons generally denotes damage and reload speed. Meaning that Light Weapons fire the fastest, but inflict the least damage, whereas Large Weapons inflict heavy damage but require longer reloading.

In terms of Pure Damage, the scale goes: Prow Lance > Torpedo > Macro Cannon > Lance > Missiles
In terms of Firing Speed, the scale goes: Missiles > Macro Cannon > Lance > Torpedo > Prow Lance
Hangars and Equipment Modifiers to Weapons not applied.

[X] Alectai

People, we don't need a troop carrier this turn. if the Orks attack us this turn, a troop carrier is completely useless to us. We are anticipating a major ork assault either this turn or the next, and until that assault is broken and we can counterattack, any pattern of troop ship is completely useless for our tactical or strategic objectives. We can build the troop carrier frigate next turn, we need more guns this turn to bolster our in-system monitors and have more firepower on hand to launch the counterattack. Do you all really want to go into an Ork-controlled starsystem with just 7 destoyer-scale combat ships? Because we can delay on the troop transport and still effectively neuter the nearby Ork void presence the turn after they attack, if we have the firepower for it. Which I'm concerned we won't if we are working purely with our sub-standard and currently only direct-combat FTL warships that everyone is talking about replacing/updating as soon as we get the time for it.

You don't have to vote for my design, but please vote for something that can actually contribute meaningfully to void-combat.

RaptorusMaximus said:

People, we don't need a troop carrier this turn. if the Orks attack us this turn, a troop carrier is completely useless to us. We are anticipating a major ork assault either this turn or the next, and until that assault is broken and we can counterattack, any pattern of troop ship is completely useless for our tactical or strategic objectives. We can build the troop carrier frigate next turn, we need more guns this turn to bolster our in-system monitors and have more firepower on hand to launch the counterattack. Do you all really want to go into an Ork-controlled starsystem with just 7 destoyer-scale combat ships? Because we can delay on the troop transport and still effectively neuter the nearby Ork void presence the turn after they attack, if we have the firepower for it. Which I'm concerned we won't if we are working purely with our sub-standard and currently only direct-combat FTL warships that everyone is talking about replacing/updating as soon as we get the time for it.

You don't have to vote for my design, but please vote for something that can actually contribute meaningfully to void-combat.

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I already pointed out that "The troop carrier isn't for right now, it's for being able to strike immediately after a major attack" To exploit that moment of vulnerability to push the border back. Because we don't just magically materialize the new ship immediately, it takes time to build. Having it ready when the attack comes means we can attack them while they're weak, instead of giving them four or five years to make good their losses by the time our troopship is ready. That's why we need it now, to exploit an opening, and the longer we wait, the harder the counteroffensive will be as they dig in even deeper and get the Ork Ecosystem more entrenched.

[X] Taurus-Class Troopship

If we they don't attack this turn, so be it, but if they do, we'll be able to attack right away before they can replace their losses. This is of critical importance to our strategic interests.

@Alectai I agree that having troop transport capacity is important, but the Taurus is utter garbage. It's absolutely useless for anything but transporting a small amounts of troops from point A to point B and cannot do anything else.

If that route is not entirely secured by other ships then you might as well to full steam ahead into the sun instead, because it can't even fight its way out of a wet paper bag. And high acceleration is quite well and good, except that the tiniest of ships parked at the destination is an insurmountable obstacle for it.

inirlan said:

@Alectai I agree that having troop transport capacity is important, but the Taurus is utter garbage. It's absolutely useless for anything but transporting a small amounts if troops from point A to point B and cannot do anything else.

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Yes, that's its job.

We can't afford to have multirole vessels at our current level of shipbuilding. But We Still Need A Troopship.

A well protected ship that can avoid all but the lightest attackers while carrying a military force to its destination, and providing key artillery and orbital support once the battlespace is ours. It has its job, it does it.

But we still need a Troopship. We were explicitly told we required one.

This is that Troopship. If you want a multirole pocket Strike Cruiser, get us more DP. This fulfills a specific role that we were explicitly told we needed, and I've established a doctrine where it can fit in with our other assets. Stay on target.

The Aries-class can secure the ground, this ship is meant to get our fellas to the campaign theatre and help them win once there. No more, no less. You want multirole, shake loose another 10 DP and we'll talk.

[X] Taurus-Class Troopship

Alectai said:

Yes, that's its job.

We can't afford to have multirole vessels at our current level of shipbuilding. But We Still Need A Troopship.

A well protected ship that can avoid all but the lightest attackers while carrying a military force to its destination, and providing key artillery and orbital support once the battlespace is ours. It has its job, it does it.

But we still need a Troopship. We were explicitly told we required one.

This is that Troopship. If you want a multirole pocket Strike Cruiser, get us more DP. This fulfills a specific role that we were explicitly told we needed, and I've established a doctrine where it can fit in with our other assets. Stay on target.

The Aries-class can secure the ground, this ship is meant to get our fellas to the campaign theatre and help them win once there. No more, no less. You want multirole, shake loose another 10 DP and we'll talk.

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I think the problem is that we're supposedly so very, very concerned with fighting the Orks and keeping it from being a ground battle... and so designing a unit that is explicitly entirely useless in keeping the enemy from defeating our fleet... doesn't seem like a great idea?

The Laurent said:

I think the problem is that we're supposedly so very, very concerned with fighting the Orks and keeping it from being a ground battle... and so designing a unit that is explicitly entirely useless in keeping the enemy from defeating our fleet... doesn't seem like a great idea?

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We want to avoid a ground battle in our home system, because this is where we keep our stuff and they'll wreck and loot it if we let them get boots on the ground.

If we can pop them while they're relatively poorly developed in a planet that they've just emptied out of the Boyz to attack us, well, we've now moved the Front Line out of our front lawn and have given ourselves some actual depth to work with, rather than every fight that reaches the ground being Life Or Death.

Alectai said:

I already pointed out that "The troop carrier isn't for right now, it's for being able to strike immediately after a major attack" To exploit that moment of vulnerability to push the border back.

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As I have said, we don't need a troopship for that. We need one to take any planetary bodies in the system, but to just utterly smash the Ork's ability to produce or support warships, and thus directly threaten Droma, all we need are void combatants. 90% of factions can't build starships of any real size on planetary surfaces in 40k, and these orks are definitely not evolved enough to be able to manage it. They might be able to build something like our initial monitor-scouts, and it should be easy enough to pound any planetary shipyards into scrap once we have orbital dominance.

All of the infrastructure they need to build or maintain serious warships in the next system over will by necessity by in the void, which are within striking range of void combatants once we eliminate any mobile defenses.

If we just want to remove the Orks as a mobile threat from the next system, all we need are void combatants, and the more we have, the better. Will this let the Ork Ecosystem get a bit more entrenched in the planetoids of the system? Yes, but I'm willing to accept that to ensure we have the firepower to both survive this attack with minimal losses to our Warp-capable warships and have enough firepower to ensure we can remove Orkoid void industry from the table in the system.

You are proposing that we try and take on whatever system monitors the Orks will leave behind in that star with just 7 sub-par destroyers, while possibly having to protect a nearly helpless VIP-ship. I don't agree that this is a good idea, and I think we should hold off on producing this design until next turn.

[X] Sagittarius-class Frigate

[X] Righteous Fury Class Frigate
-[X] Length - 1.600 Meters (+1 DP)
-[X] Width - 400 Meters (0 DP)
-[X] Acceleration - 6 Gravities (-1 DP)
-[X] Armor - Single Hull (0 DP)
-[X] Shields - Two Emitters (0 DP)
-[X] Weapons - Light Rotary Macro-Cannon/Turret, Medium Macro-Cannons/Battery (-4 DP)
-[X] Equipment - Small Troop Compartment, Auto-Loaders, and Gravimetric Engine Calculations (-4 DP)

An alternative design plan for a hybrid troop carrier/dedicated warship design. It's one design point in debt but the pros should hopefully make the detriment worthwhile. It would play to our current ground doctrine of launching (relatively small) special forces level operations while maintaining good void warfare capabilities. It doesn't have the survivability of other designs but it could still play a useful role in our nascent fleet.

RaptorusMaximus said:

As I have said, we don't need a troopship for that. We need one to take any planetary bodies in the system, but to just utterly smash the Ork's ability to produce or support warships, and thus directly threaten Droma, all we need are void combatants. 90% of factions can't build starships of any real size on planetary surfaces in 40k, and these orks are definitely not evolved enough to be able to manage it. They might be able to build something like our initial monitor-scouts, and it should be easy enough to pound any planetary shipyards into scrap once we have orbital dominance.

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Okay, how do you expect to stop them from just building themselves back up after we blockade them then? The Ork Ecosystem might not be in full swing there yet, but it's absolutely strong enough for them to start arming and equipping themselves. If they can't get in the Void, they'll just equip themselves to turn the place into Ork Veitnam instead.

The point is "We draw an attack, we repulse it while they're highly damaged, then we attack them before they've had a chance to recoup their numbers and get them on the backfoot." Parry and Riposte.

We can't do that without the Warp capable shipping to get our dudes out of our system.

The Sagi provides literally zero novel utility. It's just "The Aries but with Bigger Guns". We can get an improved Aries with a revisit to the Aries with the extra DP, and it'll be better for our purposes to boot because it'll have only 1 less DP and is just better at maneuvering anyway due to its higher base Acceleration.

Meanwhile, we have been Explicitly Told that we Need a Warp Capable Troopship if we hope to actually be anything more than constantly on the defensive. I've established how we can leverage having a Troopship ready to go on the drop of a hat to push our border back.

What does the Sagitarrius offer us that we don't already have? If you can't answer this question, don't vote for it. I've made my argument, and defended it with data and a projection. "But we can have bigger guns and more missiles and that's more important than actually pushing our border back" is not acceptable in my book. Tell me how this meaningfully expands our capabilities over producing two Destroyer-weights with similar armament and I'll acknowledge the argument. But I will not accept any arguments that are based on wishful thinking or "I want to transition to Torpedo Destroyers right now" as valid, because they don't engage with the current facts of our strategic position.

Alectai said:

What does the Sagitarrius offer us that we don't already have?

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A larger, better armed gunboat better able to survive getting into fights with the light-cruiser weight Ork warships we know that this WAAAGH has access to. It doesn't matter that it's a role that overlaps with vessels we already have, it does that role better right now and sets us up to be able to eventually transition away from using what was originally designed as a stopgap design made due to the necessity of our situation, which has since changed. Even if we were to update the design of the Aries into a better gunboat, which I would prefer not to, I highly doubt that is going to magically update the already extant vessels into that better design. At best we'd be looking at like a 3-4 turn 'refit' action, at worst we'd just have to build fresh Aries Mk. IIs or whatever we name them.

Alectai said:

Tell me how this meaningfully expands our capabilities over producing two Destroyer-weights with similar armament

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It adds to our fleet a larger, more durable target for larger Ork warships to focus on, which leaves our smaller warships more free to get around the sides and tear out said ork ships' inards.

That's less useful here in Droma, where we have larger System Monitors already, but if you want to go on the offensive, you have to assume that the Orks are not going to be leaving their previous system almost completely undefended by non-warp-capable ships, and so we may very well need that distraction carnifex for our 'parry and riposte' so that we don't have to force Destroyers to take on that role, where they'd have a much higher chance of being destroyed than a Frigate would under the guns of a light-cruiser equivalent.

I don't understand why you are so insistent that we have to have a troop carrier to launch ground invasions in the same turn we launch a counterattack into Ubraka. By all rights we shouldn't even be trying to consider holding that system until we have much more in the way of fleet assets and ground units, and just keep constantly smashing the Orks fleet and void assets via raiding until we have at least 2 transport frigates, but even then taking everything those 2 ships could carry would leave Droma with next to no ground units to protect it in the event some bullshit were to occur.

RaptorusMaximus said:

A larger, better armed gunboat better able to survive getting into fights with the light-cruiser weight Ork warships we know that this WAAAGH has access to. It doesn't matter that it's a role that overlaps with vessels we already have, it does that role better and sets us up to be able to eventually transition away from using what was originally designed as a stopgap design made due to the necessity of our situation, which has since changed.



It adds to our fleet a larger, more durable target for larger Ork warships to focus on, which leaves our smaller warships more free to get around the sides and tear out said ork ships' inards.

That's less useful here in Droma, where we have larger System Monitors already, but if you want to go on the offensive, you have to assume that the Orks are not going to be leaving their previous system almost completely undefended by non-warp-capable ships, and so we may very well need that distraction carnifex for our 'parry and riposte' so that we don't have to force Destroyers to take on that role, where they'd have a much higher chance of being destroyed than a Frigate would under the guns of a light-cruiser equivalent.

I don't understand why you are so insistent that we have to have a troop carrier to launch ground invasions in the same turn we launch a counterattack into U

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No, a Frigate is not beating a Light Cruiser in a head on fight, especially when they have "Three times your DP". Wishful Thinking. We're not beating Cruiserweights in a fair fight, and any thought that a brawler frigate can meaningfully influence our odds against a Light Cruiser is Pure Wishful Thinking Incarnate.

It's not that much larger, not that much more durable than an Aries--and it has significantly less Acceleration, which means it's going to be getting hit more even if it fights exactly the same as an Aries despite not being that much tougher. Ork Ships suck at turning, and our best defense is minimizing how many hits we take. Therefore, Wishful Thinking to think a slightly chonkier Brawler will meaningfully change the calculus.

The Entire Point of this strategy is "Bait their heavies in, and attack immediately after we repulse them". Before they can replace those Light Cruisers. But that requires us to actually dislodge them before they just respawn another few armies. We can't do that without a Warp Capable Troopship. And since we need one, it might as well be good at its job.

Unless you think we can hold them off indefinitely, despite literally every warning we've gotten that Turtling Will Get Us Killed. We can't, but we're not getting a pocket Strike Cruiser anytime soon, and triply not if we just decide to turtle here. If the expectation is "Don't bother having a Troopship until you can make a pocket Strike Cruiser", we're going to be turtling for a long, long time. And you can't beat Orks by turtling up, you beat them by burning them out before they can hit critical mass, or by throwing so much material at them that they can't keep up. The latter is not going to be an option for us ever.