Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Artemis1992 · Jan 20, 2024

Cavalar said:
This second chance will literally:

Destroy their name, link them to the powers of unimaginable horror, will punish them for moral behaviour, will reward for destruction and murder and offers second chance at the most vulnerable time in their life.

The alternative for them is afterlife, which is verified to Molly, she also believes that this afterlife can include Paradise or Purgatory that leads to Paradise (as she is a Catholic). Also, can be Hell, but for "deserving" condemned by moral and impartial judge.

I think you are really employing mental gymnastics here to justify releasing the Exaltation, because you are literally saying that Molly will raise revenants with Necromancy, because she believes in second chances.

I disagree with that, the Exaltation still leaves you mostly free.

Sure, it punishes you for answering to your name or saving lifes, but very moderatly so compared to the original Exalted.

The issue is mostly being creepier, which is something Molly has dealt with, and being nocturnal,with moderate penalties for being in daylight or up in the day, both of which still leave the Abyssal much better off than being a regular human.

Yog · Jan 20, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
Independent of the actual issues involved, it'd almost be funny for someone to exalt as an Abyssal as a blamp tries to turn them. However it played out the whole situation would be a train wreck for ages after the fact.

Still an awful idea, but the idea of some elder looking at an abyssal and going "what the hell does Bill feed his kids?" while they rampage around killing things is certainly something.

I mean, taking blampires as WoD vampire analogs, that's canon:

Melbourne's a likely spot for the world's first Ex -
alt-run Camarilla city. There's an Abyssal there
who received the Black Exaltation in the middle
of his Embrace, before his would-be sire could
finish getting her wrist open. Prince Taylor
still hasn't mustered anything more than faint
curiosity about how the kid's sire managed to
fuck up the Embrace and get him to come out
as weird as he did. He certainly isn't scared yet,
although he will be. Give it time.

uju32 said:
Most Abyssals are basically being conditioned and shaped into a particular attitudes and aptitudes. Deprival of your old name and adoption of a new one inspired by the ideology being pushed on you, isolation from previous social links, repeated glorification of particular ideologies, punishment for breaking rules..... They are all classic brainwashing/indoctrination techniques.

While these are true, you state them in a way that pushes an agenda, and in many cases is just not correct for ExvsWoD. Let's start with the name. Abyssals are deprived of their old name, yes. "adoption of a new one inspired by the ideology being pushed on you" is wrong for ExvsWoD. There's no ideology remaining. An abyssal previously known as Joe is free to adopt the name Bob, as far as I see. It would be a temporary measure, but it would work. See the quote:

The Abyssal Exalted sacrifice their name in the
course of their Exaltation. Should they try to cling to it
afterwards, they are lashed with pain and calamity as their
Essence rises in rebellion against them. While a simple
alias may serve as a replacement in a pinch, each knows
in her heart of hearts that she is truly nameless, and that
should she ever come to identify with a new name, then
it too will one night be carried away by the storm-winds.
So it is that, sooner or later, most Abyssals learn to
go by titles. Sometimes these attempt to express who
the deathknight was, or aims to be. Often they are a
warning, a minor courtesy to those who encounter
her. Most frequently, though, Abyssals draw their titles
from dreams of dead gods, which express themselves as
faint whispers tainting a deathknight's Essence.

Here you are free to counter me with "but see, yog, Abyssals draw their titles from dreams of dead gods, which express themselves as faint whispers tainting a deathknight's Essence", so clearly there's still brainwashing going on. Except, only "some" of abyssals actually get Whispers at all. It's an optional background you get to buy at chargen:

W hispers W hispers
Some Abyssals feel the voice of Oblivion whisper-
ing, crawling, skittering through the back of their
mind, a vague and comforting glow of nihilism
that is with them always. This is in fact the bar-
est and murkiest edge of the spectral hive-mind,
and with some practice, an Abyssal can learn to
momentarily tap into it and draw upon its vast re-
serves of experience and knowledge. Once per night,
an Abyssal can substitute her Whispers rating in place
of any one Ability when making a dice roll.

It's perfectly valid for an abyssal to just... not hear whispers of neverborn. Mechanical advantages are high enough that I think it's expected at least some players would pick it up, but it's equally plausible that out of 100 abyssals, 1 would hear whispers of Neverborn.

Canon abyssal goes by "Skull Girl"

Then you posit "isolation from previous social links". As far as I know that's just wrong. Nothing is stopping you from telling your folks "I am going through my goth phase, and am going to be changing my name each 3 months for tax reasons" and just keep on with your life.

"repeated glorification of particular ideologies" - what's that about? Trapping of the grave? Yeah, ok, but said ideologies include ancestor worship, buddism, and basically a lot of wordily religions and traditions.

"punishment for breaking rules" - that one is the most true. Here are the rules and consequences of breaking them:
These are the laws that the Black Exaltation de-
mands an Abyssal follow:

• She must not say or acknowledge her lost name, or
any name she truly considers to be her own. Each time
she does so, she suffers the curse of the Neverborn.
• She must not increase the numbers of the living. Sir-
ing or bearing a child is forbidden, and the moment of
the child's birth brings with it the curse of the Neverborn.
• She must not save the lives of the living. Any scene in
which she does so provokes the curse of the Neverborn.
The curse of the Neverborn expresses itself as one of
a variety of temporary punishments, chosen by the Story-
teller. The curse is generally transitory, lasting for anywhere
from a scene to a few days. Common examples include:
• The next time the Abyssal manifests her fangs, she
is unable to banish them for three days.
• She gains the Nightmares flaw (see V20, page 485)
for a week.
• She has great difficulty approaching some com -
mon stimulus such as the scent of garlic or roses, holy
ground, holy symbols, or the sound of churchbells,
and must roll Willpower (difficulty 7) to remain close
to the cursed object or sensation.
• She gains the Beacon of the Unholy flaw (see V20,
page 494).
• The Abyssal gains the Eerie Presence flaw (see
V20, page 495).
• The character suffers the Lord of the Flies flaw (see
V20, page 495).
• The Abyssal finds bright lights and direct sunlight
painful, increasing the difficulty of all actions by 1
while in such circumstances.
• A terrible lethargy falls upon the Abyssal when the
sun rises, compelling her to sleep from sunrise until
sunset. If she remains awake and active anyway, she
suffers a –2 penalty to all actions.
• Spectres detect the anger of the Neverborn echoing
through their hive-mind and become hostile to the Abyssal.

They are terrible, and bad. But they are not ideological, not directly. Neverborn are almost gone as actors. It's all automatic. A crippling condition, but better than death.

On a tangentially related note: what is stopping an abyssal exaltation from being transformed into an infernal / primordial one? The same way yozis transformed solars, should it not be possible to do the same with an inverted variant? Might even be simpler than turning them back into a solar.

DragonParadox · Jan 20, 2024

Yog said:
I mean, taking blampires as WoD vampire analogs, that's canon:

While these are true, you state them in a way that pushes an agenda, and in many cases is just not correct for ExvsWoD. Let's start with the name. Abyssals are deprived of their old name, yes. "adoption of a new one inspired by the ideology being pushed on you" is wrong for ExvsWoD. There's no ideology remaining. An abyssal previously known as Joe is free to adopt the name Bob, as far as I see. It would be a temporary measure, but it would work. See the quote:

To put this another way an Abyssal has to take a title not a name if they want to hang onto it, but it need not be a name connected to their exaltation. Someone whose really into Harry Potter could just call themselves You Know Who and that would work.

LightLan · Jan 20, 2024

Some of the punishments are rather easily dealt with.
Others take a little more effort.

• The next time the Abyssal manifests her fangs, she
is unable to banish them for three days.
Uh, don't manifest them? (If you do, it's time to claim you're auditioning for Count Dracula. But nothing actually forces you to manifest them.)

• She gains the Nightmares flaw (see V20, page 485)
for a week.
Enchanted Pillow or special training from a monk.

• She has great difficulty approaching some common stimulus such as the scent of garlic or roses, holy ground, holy symbols, or the sound of churchbells, and must roll Willpower (difficulty 7) to remain close to the cursed object or sensation.
High WP for the win.

• She gains the Beacon of the Unholy flaw (see V20,
page 494).
• The Abyssal gains the Eerie Presence flaw (see
V20, page 495).
• The character suffers the Lord of the Flies flaw (see
V20, page 495).
I don't have V20, so no idea what those even do.

• The Abyssal finds bright lights and direct sunlight
painful, increasing the difficulty of all actions by 1
while in such circumstances.

We made something to make a Fae immune to iron. We can make something for this.

• A terrible lethargy falls upon the Abyssal when the sun rises, compelling her to sleep from sunrise until sunset. If she remains awake and active anyway, she suffers a –2 penalty to all actions.

Malcoffee

• Spectres detect the anger of the Neverborn echoing
through their hive-mind and become hostile to the Abyssal.

Spectres normally attack anyone else anyway. Just kill them.

BronzeTongue · Jan 20, 2024

Here's another fun one:

Words Beneath a Whisper (••)
The Abyssal hides her true meaning within a shell of decoy words, as a ghost may hide within a manor. These coded messages only reveal themselves to those she wishes.
System: Spend 1 Essence while speaking or com- posing a written work to embed a second, hidden message inside the statement or writing. This hidden message can only be discerned by those the Abyssal intends to address it to

Pretty basic, lots of exalt have it other than infernals. But the interesting thing is that a lot of charms key off interaction and not physical proximity. Ivy, through the archive, has no choice but to know every word written by a mortal hand by any medium and has enough personal awareness that Dresden could get her attention by starting to write a letter.

Presumably the Archive itself has some means to protect against memetic hazards and social powers, but I wonder how that stacks up against someone hiding it from everyone but her specifically since Ivy and her mantle aren't quite the same thing.

Even if that doesn't work, a clever exalt can key interacting with the entirety of the venators and any effort to defend reality the Archive is a part of by writing a letter she cannot help but read.

Both of their bureaucracy charms key this way, so one could hypothetically give any efforts that happen to be to your advantage in the enemy camp -2 difficulty and any efforts that are actually a problem +2 difficulty. No one can stop them short of figuring out how to break the effect doing so ever time the Abyssal feels like spending 3 essence or cutting the archive out of their plans. In the meantime natural mental influence is probably fair game.

Yog said:
Lydia's role as a guardian of the dead and mediator between the world of the dead and the living seems perfectly fluff compatible. She is, in many ways, essentially an abyssal version of dragonblooded.

It's telling that what little of fluff lore we have for ExvsWoD has an Abyssal (skull girl) working together with a Solar and guided by a Sidereal to fight vampires and save the world.

You can have abyssals trying to drag the world down, easily so, but they, like others, are modern people given awesome comic power and zero guidance. If someone drops in and explains what's going on, most people would likely listen

Lydia isn't powered by an exaltation bent specifically to the task of killing the world. It's possible for one to take her approach, but doing so is the protagonist among protagonist tier stuff so players can build extra special exalts. Everything outside of the system text in the charms section is utterly without purpose in the scenario you're describing.

Artemis1992 said:
I disagree with that, the Exaltation still leaves you mostly free.

Sure, it punishes you for answering to your name or saving lifes, but very moderatly so compared to the original Exalted.

The issue is mostly being creepier, which is something Molly has dealt with, and being nocturnal,with moderate penalties for being in daylight or up in the day, both of which still leave the Abyssal much better off than being a regular human.

That's underselling it, remember that mechanics are only abstractions of experience.

Take this:

trappings oF the grave
Walking abroad in the living world is a dis- tressing experience for Abyssals. The air seems
too thin. The quality of the light is wrong. Even
the simple pull of gravity upon the Exalt's limbs is sub- tly distressing. The flavor of food is far too intense. In short, Abyssal Essence is out of sync with the world of flesh and breath, which seeks to reject death's Chosen.
Most Abyssals quickly come to realize that these distressing sensations fade when she's surrounded by the trappings of death. Graveyards, mortuaries, and charnel houses are all places of refuge and comfort. The Abyssal once more feels at ease in her own skin.
Of course, nobody can just linger in graveyards all day. Abyssals learn to solve this problem by adorning themselves in the symbolism and fashion of the grave. This can mean anything from wearing black clothes and a widow's veil, to dressing in the traditional severe white mourning garb known throughout much of Asia, to adopting the fashions of sub- cultures which celebrate death and the ma-
cabre, to garbing oneself in the outdated
fashions of a long-ago time vanished
into history and the earth. Or it can
164

just mean driving a custom car with skulls and bats and spiders all the Hell over it.
Abyssals who don't in some way wear or surround themselves with the trappings of the grave increase the difficulty of all actions by +1 while in the living world, the Dreaming, or most parts of the Spirit World.

For all you can suppress it with a visit to Hot Topic the feeling of alienation is your normal now. You also get a fancy new hunter for blood even if you don't need it and the curse stuff riding you.

That it isn't as severe as the deathlord's direct attention doesn't make it immaterial.

There's also the people it chooses. Death cultist isn't on the list so that midnight castes can go find well adjusted zenith candidates who happen to be dying right now.

Yog · Jan 20, 2024

LightLan said:
• She gains the Beacon of the Unholy flaw (see V20,
page 494).
• The Abyssal gains the Eerie Presence flaw (see
V20, page 495).
• The character suffers the Lord of the Flies flaw (see
V20, page 495).
I don't have V20, so no idea what those even do.

Beacon of the Unholy (2pt. Flaw)
You radiate palpable evil. Clergy and devout mor-
tals know instinctively that there is something horribly
wrong with you, and react accordingly.

Eerie Presence (2pt. Flaw)
Mortals have an unconscious awareness of your un-
dead nature, which makes then anxious and ill at ease
in your presence. Because of this, difficulties of all rolls
relating to social interaction with mortals are increased
by two.

Lord of the Flies (2pt. Flaw)
Buzzing harbingers of decay swirl around you every-
where. Their constant presence makes it difficult for
you to interact socially (+1 difficulty when appropri-
ate) and nearly impossible to sneak up on someone
or hide effectively. The buzzing of the flies inevitably
gives you away — all Stealth rolls are at +2 difficulty.

Mechanically they can be dealt with by splendors, I think.

BronzeTongue said:
Lydia isn't powered by an exaltation bent specifically to the task of killing the world.

Lydia's powered at least partially by the universal concept of Death, and we don't know how deep the connetion runs. She's a result of unholy experiments by Kemmler, and given an active-ish Neverborn in the setting, and that at least one abyssal exaltation is out there, if sealed, it's possible he actually studied those too.

It's possible for one to take her approach, but doing so is the protagonist among protagonist tier stuff so players can build extra special exalts.

Citation needed really, really badly. These are not 2nd edition abyssals. Their bosses are gone. They are essentially free. No one is controlling them, save few automatic mechanisms and resonances. They are people given second chance in life at a cost, but that cost is a not a credit you need to keep paying, it's a medical condition that can be cured in time.

I actually expect most abyssals to get redeemed in time.

BronzeTongue said:
Everything outside of the system text in the charms section is utterly without purpose in the scenario you're describing.

But abyssals are without purpose, narratively. That's the point. They were also trapped within the Black Vault, or, if they were not, were roused to movement by the mass release of solar-lunar-sidereal exaltations that were released to save the world. But abyssals themselves are without purpose at all. They were incidental to the main release, a consequence of it, but not a counter t. There's no mind behind their release, no purpose to it, no overreaching agenda to it. Canon abyssal seems to be running around helping good guys and protecting the dead.

Unless one falls under control of Black Court or some other apocalyptic organization, of course.

Yog · Jan 20, 2024

Hell, if we wanted to talk possibilities, if we are fast enough, it's possible for a newly exalted abyssal to be spared most of the downsides completely, I think. This is how abyssals lose their names:

The Black Exaltation
There is usually no great eruption of power when
the Black Exaltation begins. The Abyssal's wounds
quickly mend themselves. Her eyes open. A creeping
chill insinuates itself into her flesh, and she has the dis-
tinct sense of losing something small and precious in ex-
change for something grand and dark and magnificent.
A slow, deep power builds within her flesh and
heart, hour upon hour, night upon night. At first, the
Abyssal might delude herself into believing she hallu-
cinated her bargain, but such thoughts cannot last for
long. Dark and fearsome omens plague her footsteps.
Water freezes and plants die in her presence. Flocks
of ravens and vultures crowd the rooftops and power
lines to watch her. When she peers into mirrors, the
world she sees within is rotting and decayed. Over the
course of several nights these manifestations intensify:
Crimson eyes open in the sky and weep blood. Corps-
es worm their way up from the ground and prostrate
themselves before her. The mad and the lost whisper
her name, and then sob, or bleed, or flee.
At last the dead come for her, and they are not
gentle or reverent ancestor spirits. Feral, hateful, mad-
dened things that once were human souls claw a hole
in the fabric of the world and draw the Abyssal into the
Underworld. As she stands upon the dust of that blast-
ed landscape, her Spectre abductors cavort and howl
and worship her with dark and instinctive glee.
Soon, inevitably, the storm arrives. It ravages the
land of the dead and carries the Spectres, cackling, up
into its winds. The Abyssal suffers no harm; this is her
storm, it is here for her before any other purpose, and
upon its arrival it drives the last missing key to her Ex-
altation into her heart: a tiny but pure sliver of Obliv-
ion. To make room for this gift, the storm-winds suck
out and carry away a trifling reduction in the form of
the Abyssal's name.
It's up to her to find a way back to the living world
after that, but this is rarely any great hardship. The
Spectres are usually happy to carry her back through
the Shroud should she show any desire for them to
do so, exploiting the vast power of the soul-storm to
accomplish the deed.

So, it's not immediate. It's over the course of several days. So, if we find the holder of exaltation during that time, then either accompany them to the underworld, or slay the Spectres when they arrive, or deflect the shard of Oblivion with a perfect defense - what happens?

LightLan · Jan 20, 2024

Yog said:
So, it's not immediate. It's over the course of several days. So, if we find the holder of exaltation during that time, then either accompany them to the underworld, or slay the Spectres when they arrive, or deflect the shard of Oblivion with a perfect defense - what happens?

I think that directly falls under "Try it and find out."

I doubt anyone ever did that.

uju32 · Jan 20, 2024

LightLan said:
Nothing that can't be overcome with sufficient outside support.

Molly is a proponent of "no punishment for what people are, only what they do".
I very much see her follow that with an Abyssal too.
Isolation is denied by new social links and Molly's social excellency's explaining stuff to the old ones the Abyssal wishes to keep.

Glorification of ideologies Molly will provide criticism and other ideology along with her Dad.
Punishments can go play wack-a-mole with Molly's crafting skills.

Sufficient is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
Let me just leave it at that.

DragonParadox said:
To put this another way an Abyssal has to take a title not a name if they want to hang onto it, but it need not be a name connected to their exaltation. Someone whose really into Harry Potter could just call themselves You Know Who and that would work.

In theory. In practice, not so much.
Citation:

The Abyssal Exalted sacrifice their name in the course of their Exaltation. Should they try to cling to it afterwards, they are lashed with pain and calamity as their Essence rises in rebellion against them. While a simple alias may serve as a replacement in a pinch, each knows in her heart of hearts that she is truly nameless, and that should she ever come to identify with a new name, then it too will one night be carried away by the storm-winds.

So it is that, sooner or later, most Abyssals learn to go by titles. Sometimes these attempt to express who the deathknight was, or aims to be. Often they are a warning, a minor courtesy to those who encounter her. Most frequently, though, Abyssals draw their titles from dreams of dead gods, which express themselves as faint whispers tainting a deathknight's Essence.

When a population of Abyssals, drawn from diverse backgrounds and experiences, all mostly settle on Neverborn-associated naming schemes drawn directly from Neverborn dreams, then we are forced to conclude that the cards are so stacked that a bunch of high-Willpower Solaroids all make the same choices.

A lot like how black people could pass the literacy test to vote in Jim Crow states. In theory.
In practice, not so much.

DragonParadox · Jan 20, 2024

Yog said:
Hell, if we wanted to talk possibilities, if we are fast enough, it's possible for a newly exalted abyssal to be spared most of the downsides completely, I think. This is how abyssals lose their names:

So, it's not immediate. It's over the course of several days. So, if we find the holder of exaltation during that time, then either accompany them to the underworld, or slay the Spectres when they arrive, or deflect the shard of Oblivion with a perfect defense - what happens?

Molly has no idea since she does not know how the process works. She is barely aware what a Solar Exaltation is and just last update got an inkling of what an Abyssal one is

uju32 · Jan 20, 2024

Back to the actual update:

VOTE
[] Ask if there can be light without shadow

[X] Ask where or into what the shadow is bound

RATIONALE
I think Molly would be interested in the answer to both questions.
But I think her first question would be identifying where the Black Exaltation is first, so she can keep an eye on it and has early warning should shit go down.

Just in case someone else has bright ideas about trying releasing it.

I mean, she does know that there are multiple Powers currently looking for Exaltation shards.
And not just relatively benign people like Odin, but straight up hell lords like Emma-O, Daimyo of the Dark.
Nevermind the Outsider cultists.

PS
Also, there's no way to know if the robot/spirit thing has any idea about the answer to the first question
That requires knowledge about the origins of the Abyssals they might not have.

Nyarky · Jan 20, 2024

I am sick and tired of fearing that any new things is a shadow about to kill us.

This abyssal exaltation is just as much an opportunity for good as the solar one.

Be optimist, for once.

Plus, the way Dragon is talking about it, I don't see him as seeing the Abyssals as only capable of being monsters, all his arguments are on how this is not the case, and, well, he's the QM, his word is law on that kind of topic.

the DragonBard · Jan 20, 2024

Surprised no one is trying to use a crown question to find out the nature of the exaltation.

DragonParadox · Jan 20, 2024

Good night guys, see you tomorrow as we get to acting on all these revelations. You guys have only partaken in some drinking and no gambling so far, that's way under the Vegas quota.

uju32 · Jan 20, 2024

the DragonBard said:
Surprised no one is trying to use a crown question to find out the nature of the exaltation.

There arent many Crown foci that relate to Exaltations, and once we burn one, its gone.
You use normal investigation to narrow down the topic as much as possible, then we decide if its worth the burning the focus on this.

So first we should talk and find out as much as we can from talking.

BronzeTongue · Jan 20, 2024

Nyarky said:
I am sick and tired of fearing that any new things is a shadow about to kill us.

This abyssal exaltation is just as much an opportunity for good as the solar one.

Be optimist, for once.

Plus, the way Dragon is talking about it, I don't see him as seeing the Abyssals as only capable of being monsters, all his arguments are on how this is not the case, and, well, he's the QM, his word is law on that kind of topic.

Even if Abyssals are no worse than solars, which I think erases the substance from their narrative as intended and glosses over direct statements of intent and design on the basis of taking one line without the later context, many of the same issues would apply.

To my eye there hasn't been a good refutation of any of the tangible concerns or particular reason to believe they're unlikely. Emotional appeals are highly unpersuasive because they're inherently unsubstantial and subjective.

Goldfish · Jan 20, 2024

Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Jan 20, 2024 at 6:42 PM, finished with 73 posts and 2 votes.

2 people have voted
[X] Ask where or into what the shadow is bound
- Goldfish
- uju32

Yzarc · Jan 20, 2024

[X] Ask if there can be light without shadow

Yog · Jan 21, 2024

[X] Ask where or into what the shadow is bound

As I previously said - abyssals are not necessarily evil, and it's better to have one on our side, if only to deny them to the enemy.

Degorium · Jan 21, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
Even if Abyssals are no worse than solars, which I think erases the substance from their narrative as intended and glosses over direct statements of intent and design on the basis of taking one line without the later context, many of the same issues would apply.

To my eye there hasn't been a good refutation of any of the tangible concerns or particular reason to believe they're unlikely. Emotional appeals are highly unpersuasive because they're inherently unsubstantial and subjective.

The substance to me for the solars and their derivatives is who you are as a person what you do with power. The idea that abyssals or even infernals are inherently somehow juxtaposed to solars is false because all three tell a Narrative of how do you use your power.

This narrative provides three separate entrances Triumph death and failure which creates a through line that if you let it Define you can lead infinitely in those directions the infernals can be rulers of nothing but Ash, the Abyssal Kings of the Restless dead surrounded by the things that set off their narrative and inherently that is where the solar narrative comes in as well. You were rewarded in Triumph with the ability to Triumph indefinitely if you're willing to put the work in.

The greater Narrative of Exalted as a whole is what do you do with the power you are given. So I think I'm not glossing over the statements of intent and design but rather the point of being exalted is to Glide over them to pick and choose what you cling to and which you defy to your dying breath, because you are free to do so because you have the power, the agency to do so.

Edit: Vote
[X] Ask where or into what the shadow is bound

Artemis1992 · Jan 21, 2024

[X] Ask where or into what the shadow is bound

BronzeTongue · Jan 21, 2024

Degorium said:
The substance to me for the solars and their derivatives is who you are as a person what you do with power. The idea that abyssals or even infernals are inherently somehow juxtaposed to solars is false because all three tell a Narrative of how do you use your power.

This narrative provides three separate entrances Triumph death and failure which creates a through line that if you let it Define you can lead infinitely in those directions the infernals can be rulers of nothing but Ash, the Abyssal Kings of the Restless dead surrounded by the things that set off their narrative and inherently that is where the solar narrative comes in as well. You were rewarded in Triumph with the ability to Triumph indefinitely if you're willing to put the work in.

The greater Narrative of Exalted as a whole is what do you do with the power you are given. So I think I'm not glossing over the statements of intent and design but rather the point of being exalted is to Glide over them to pick and choose what you cling to and which you defy to your dying breath, because you are free to do so because you have the power, the agency to do so.

Edit: Vote
[X] Ask where or into what the shadow is bound

Exalted's "what you do with power" is a cyclical pattern of abuse, neglect, and revenge. You're also kind of glossing over how 2/3rds of solaroids had masters who throttled them, and how solars invented an entire charm for screwing over their lunar mates so they couldn't resist them. Which mist solars used to take advantage of their lunar mates, though only some to the extent you're thinking of:

SUN AND MOON METHOD
Cost: 1m
Mins: Presence 3, Essence 2
Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Keywords: Obvious, Emotion, Touch
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: Any Presence Excellency

This Charm is the result of Solar paranoia in the High First Age. When alone with one another, certain Solars referred to it by an alternate title, "Lunar-Taming Leash."
With a touch, the Lawgiver infuses his Essence into the link constructed into his Lunar mate's Exaltation, vastly strengthening it. The Lunar gains the benefits (and drawbacks) of a five-dot rating in the Solar Bond Background. This unnatural mental influence remains in effect until five Willpower is spent at one time to remove it.
In the event that a Solar's Lunar mate is not available, he may touch himself and activate the Charm instead. Doing so grants the Solar an infallible sense of the direction in which his mate can be found, even if he has never met the Lunar in question before. If the Lunar is in another realm of existence, the Charm leads the Lawgiver to the nearest point of entry to that realm.

Not everyone was Desus, but he was still an exalt. Blaming the great curse only goes so far when what you're seeing isn't supernatural madness so much as the worst of people being written as large as everything else.

That's not just a bit of random fridge horror, Solar abuse was a big part of why lunars are so hardcore about freedom now.

Even the ones that didn't mean harm could still inflict it. Like Salina, who would fight to save reality but also almost blew it up because she evaluated the risk of destroying creation was worth taking so that she could make sorcery work how she wanted it to.

You can't pin all of that on the curse and still legitimately call it a game about the choices you make with power. Either they were capable enough to be responsible for their general actions or they weren't, they can't be responsible only for what you like and blame the devil for everything else.

Anaja · Jan 21, 2024

[X] Ask where or into what the shadow is bound

uju32 said:
Dusk Caste
In the Age of Legends, Abyssals of the Dusk Caste were the most fearsome killers Creation had ever seen. In the World of Darkness, they are drawn from the ranks of those with the will and wherewithal to kill on the field of battle: Soldiers, mercenaries, police officers, legbreakers, and enforcers are all likely candidates.

Honestly, the first thought that came to mind reading that was Murphy, police officer, becoming an abyssal exalt.

Degorium · Jan 21, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
Exalted's "what you do with power" is a cyclical pattern of abuse, neglect, and revenge. You're also kind of glossing over how 2/3rds of solaroids had masters who throttled them, and how solars invented an entire charm for screwing over their lunar mates so they couldn't resist them. Which mist solars used to take advantage of their lunar mates, though only some to the extent you're thinking of:

Not everyone was Desus, but he was still an exalt. Blaming the great curse only goes so far when what you're seeing isn't supernatural madness so much as the worst of people being written as large as everything else.

That's not just a bit of random fridge horror, Solar abuse was a big part of why lunars are so hardcore about freedom now.

Even the ones that didn't mean harm could still inflict it. Like Salina, who would fight to save reality but also almost blew it up because she evaluated the risk of destroying creation was worth taking so that she could make sorcery work how she wanted it to.

You can't pin all of that on the curse and still legitimately call it a game about the choices you make with power. Either they were capable enough to be responsible for their general actions or they weren't, they can't be responsible only for what you like and blame the devil for everything else.

No it's a cycle of violence that can only be broken by using your power wisely that's rather the whole point if your solution to every problem is violence and it works eventually violence becomes the immediate answer for everything and that breaks reality slowly but surely that's what the usurpation does. The abuse and neglect comes from arrogance and callousness regarding your fellow man not from a innate point of being powerful.

No they didn't an infernal and a death knight if they wanted to could just abandon their pact with the Yozi and the Deathlords. In fact that is considered the mode of play for infernals and the immediate mode play for the Abyssal as well. The first thing you're supposed to find out about as an infernal is unless sex and drugs are all you care about there is nothing the yozi offer you that you cannot acquire yourself and they offer an eternity enslavement should they escape. The same story essentially for the deathlords except they end the universe.

To be frank I really don't know why second edition made it so lopsided or why it's still lopsided but now in the lunar's direction in Third Edition but that's neither here nor there. Desus is literally incapable even in his own thoughts of finding any fault with any of his actions do you realize how thoroughly mind fucked you have to be for that to be the case to have no ability to reflect on your actions as if you weren't the hero in the situation. I'm not going to claim that his actions are excused by the great curse but it's obviously soaked into literally every facet of his being at that point.

Salina I'm going to need a Citation for this one because that isn't what happened at all. At least as far as I know it might be different in this Quest but that is not the actual history. Her institution of the Salinan Working was so stealthy her rival who specifically studied his own version of sorcery couldn't tell that reality had been changed to her version until he studied into her version of sorcery and realized it. At no point does that seem like it destabilized reality no it's more fridge horror because she just completely changes reality and a person who specifically studies sorcery realizes only after it's already done.

Yog · Jan 21, 2024

So, since we cannot agree based on philosophical arguments, I tried to do textual analysis. In order to do that, I used Exalted 2E core book and 2E scroll of exalts. Below is the list of all solar exalts with brief characterizations and circumstances of exaltation.

Life history:

An
orphan of the Time of Tumult, Dace was taken in by the
Ravenous Wolves mercenary company and raised among
its auxiliary.
...
He survived his first battle
and the next and one after another, growing
stronger as he steadily moved up the ranks.
By late middle age, he'd become the most
respected captain in the company, and it
was to him that command passed when
the Ravenous Wolves' commander
finally retired.

An orphan in a multi-generational mercenary company who, through his own effort, earned the respect of his peers and superiors and rose to command. The key word here is respect.
Circumstances of exaltation: lead a charge to break through enemy cavalry. When everyone around him died, he finished the charge singlehandedly in the midst of exalting.
Characterization after exaltation:

Dace respects his soldiers
unfailingly and brooks no dispar-
agement of their reputation. He
never leaves wounded soldiers
behind if he can help it, nor does he
allow captured comrades to languish
for very long in enemy hands. His
soldiers, in turn, honor Dace and
follow him with unfailing faith.
Even those who are the most
disturbed by and unsure about
his new Exalted status are still
willing to give him the benefit
of the doubt.

Summary: true neutral to neutral good mercenary leader and warlord. Where possible chooses option that would be better for those under his command.

Life history:

Growing up without any parents to speak of and run-
ning with the orphan gangs on the streets of Chiaroscuro,
Demetheus pulled his weight protecting the smaller kids
from the bullies in rival gangs and the ill-meaning adults
everywhere else—at least the screwed-up ones who treated
kids like toys or punching bags. He left the gangs when he
was old enough to work, like everybody had to, and took some
jobs doing manual labor.

circumstances of exaltation:

And when the kind of
help a strong back and hard fists could provide was called
for, Demetheus felt obliged to lend it.
That's why he got Exalted, he figures. (It's as good a
reason as any.) He'd come to a caravansary where a pair of
brothers were running a theft and murder scheme on lone,
unlucky travelers. The first brother was the brains, so he went
down easy. Now, Demetheus could've left after that, but he
knew the other brother would keep preying on travelers if
he did. So he stayed. When the other brother showed up, a
Solar Exalt was waiting. Though this brother was the muscle,
he never stood a chance.

Summary: unambiguously good hero

Seems to be a reincarnation of a hero from the end of the first age. The characteristic quote is this:

The cause of the sudden explosion of these stories
across the South is the emergence (reemergence?) of a Solar
Exalt who matches the superficial description of the hero
of the older stories. He wanders the South, settling in its
major cities long enough to expose and eradicate rampant
corruption or to help defend them against dire threats from
beyond their walls. When the threat ends, he leaves again,
having laid down no roots in the community. He rarely so
much as gives his name. Some of the Exalted who claim
to have met him have reliable First Age memories of the
martial arts style he uses, and they use its modern name as
a sobriquet to refer to him. They do so obliquely, however,
rather than calling him by that name directly. He appar-
ently finds that rude. When people talk about him, they
usually do so with a subtle, unique inflection on pronouns
that refer to him. It doesn't translate very well outside the
original Flametongue, but native Flametongue speakers
understand it perfectly well when they hear it.

Summary: unambiguously good hero

Life history:

She was born into Gens Karal to
one of Lookshy's greatest Dragon-Blooded generals, but
time proved that she would never be a Dragon-Blood her-
self. Nevertheless, she refused to accept the humdrum life
of a Child of Earth. Like her famous mother, she elected
to make a career in the Seventh Legion and proved her
bravery on the battlefield time and again. As the years
passed by, Fire Orchid made her mother proud (at least as
proud as a Terrestrial hero could be of a mortal daughter)
and rose to the utmost heights of mortal rank. Decades of
honorable service earned Fire Orchid the Legion's respect
and a healthy pension, and she retired to an idyllic farm to
live out her sunset years in peace.

Note, that just like Dace, the keyword here is respect. She was respected by her fellows and superiors.

Circumstances of exaltation:

Peace was not written in her destiny, however,
which became undeniable when the Fair Folk
emerged from a freehold hidden nearby to
menace her quiet village. Her friends and
neighbors panicked and fled and even tried
to negotiate, but the raksha showed
the villagers no mercy. None of
her civilian neighbors seemed to
understand what Fire Orchid did,
that the only way to deal with such
a heartless, alien menace was to fight
back. She resolved to teach them this
by example, and as she did so, the power
of the Unconquered Sun came upon
her. "Strike down the unrighteous
with your fury," the god's voice
said to her, "and teach others
with your wisdom." With
that, the weight of age
lifted, and an orchid
of burning Essence
wove itself in the
air around her.
She drove off
the Fair Folk and
saved the village… for the
moment.

She had a direct visitation by Unconquered Sun, and got a divinely appointed mission of righteousness and heroism. That goes to the intent of exaltations. Yes, such intent is frequently shown for at least some of them.

Main characteristic after exaltation:

In every Child of Earth, she believes,
is a soul of heroism. Some smother it
with wickedness or apathy or fear,
but nothing can truly kill it while
a person yet lives. Fire Orchid has
made it her mission to encourage
and nurture that soul, for it is the
most important part of humanity.
Whether she teaches others how to take
care of themselves or inspires others by her
own Exalted example, her every action is
devoted to making sure people become the
heroes she knows they can be.

Child of Earth = mortal.

Summary: unambiguously good hero

Oh, this one is going to be fun! I'm just going to quote pretty much his whole text, because damn if he doesn't prove my point.
Life history:

The son of a Nexus prostitute, he
was orphaned young then subjected to endless "indenture"
for the crime of stealing to feed himself. A retired arena
fighter named Maxus bought him and took him to the same
fighting school where Maxus himself had grown up.
There, Panther learned how to fight and how to
look after himself, and he was soon on his way
to making a name for himself in the infamous
Pit, Nexus's most popular fighting arena.
Growing up, Panther learned that ruthless
self-service was the only way to become a
champion. In team fights, he sacrificed his
teammates' safety to score telling blows
against his opponents. In one-on-
one engagements, he toyed with
his foes for the crowd's amuse-
ment then brutally broke
them down when the
spectators' bloodlust
was at its highest. In order to win the sponsorship of a wealthy
patron (and amuse the man's jaded peers), he brutally beat
down and killed a former teammate with his bare hands,
ignoring the fighter's surrender and pleas for mercy. For the
blood he spilled and the lives he ruined, he received fame
and money enough to buy his freedom. He ascended to the
lifestyle he'd always coveted, wanting for nothing. Yet, for
all he had, his life was ugly and pointless. The days blended
into a pageant of endless bloodshed. The nights blurred into
a lurching, debauched revel. Life became a fever dream, and
he was content never to awaken.

So, he's a great but essentially neutral evil (selfish and exploitative of others) fighter. If opposition was to be believed, he should have exalted on the basis of his greatness. And yet, he doesn't. His exaltation is directly tied to his virtue, and to his mortality:

But awaken Panther did, and with profound regret. He
lay in his fancy apartment surrounded by stained drug
paraphernalia, empty liquor
bottles and unconscious
hangers-on reek-
ing of sex and
sweat. The
sight dizzied him. He had to step out onto his balcony. There,
he turned his face to the sky, and in that moment, the Un-
conquered Sun spoke to him. He commanded Panther to go
forth and make the world a righteous place as he (Panther)
knew best. Sudden clarity overwhelmed Panther, and he
realized what a shallow, worthless life he led. In a daze, he
leapt from his balcony and walked out of Nexus into the
depths of the East.

The moment he realizes what a failure of spirit and morality he is, he exalts. So, both are needed. And, notably, again, Unconquered Sun directly visits him in a vision, and charges him with a mission. That's not a unique thing. Solars are here to save the world and elevate mortals. That's the task they are charged with, and at least some of them know it, and most of them can feel it.

And what does he do with the exaltation?

Since his Exaltation, Panther has committed his heart
and strength to redeeming himself for the unrighteous life
he led. The core of his ethical framework, in fact, is to think
about what might have seemed easiest or most satisfying to
his old self and do the opposite of that. Thus does he hope
to eventually redeem himself for his sinfulness and gain the
moral high ground whence a man can justifiably preach of
righteousness. By the same token, he believes that any Exalt
can be redeemed, no matter how wicked he or she might be
at the moment. It might take wicked mortals a few reincarna-
tions to get it right, but the Exalted may change their ways
in a single lifetime so long as they have dedicated guidance
from those around them.

Summary: penitent hero on the path to righteousness and enlightenment. Only got exalted when he realized how bad a person he was. Is actively working to redeem himself.

Life history:

When Wind was still a boy, he dreamed of living the life
of an itinerant Immaculate monk, exploring the Threshold
for lost holy texts and Shogunate artifacts. He gave himself
to the Palace Sublime at a young age, where he made good
friends and devoted himself to the study and emulation of
the teachings of Mela, the Immaculate Dragon of Air. The
Elemental Dragons' grace was denied him—at least in this
incarnation, he consoled himself—but by early adulthood,
he had made himself into a strong, competent monk and left
the Palace Sublime with two Immaculate cohorts in search
of the lost ruins of the past. He was only a mortal, but he
wouldn't have traded the life he led for anything short of a
Terrestrial Exaltation.

Quite similar to Karal - a mortal in dragon-blooded society, fails to exalt, makes the best of themselves on the righteous and selfless path.

Circumstances of exaltation:

Desire is not destiny, however, and Wind was forced to
sacrifice the life he wanted for the life the Unconquered Sun
wanted for him. It happened when he and his two friends were
doing research in Gethamane. Every night of their sojourn
there, another local was murdered in horrific fashion. Wind
found someone he thought was the culprit, but the one he
blamed for the acts was actually a Lunar Exalt investigating
the same murders. When the vicious creature responsible
for the horrors revealed itself, Wind made a fateful deci-
sion: Rather than attacking the "Anathema," he stood by
the Lunar's side and attacked the monster. Power flooded
into him, and when the creature lay dead, Wind real-
ized that he radiated an intense golden light. The
voice of the Unconquered Sun spoke to him, and he
knew that his old life was over. The Unconquered
Sun's blessing changed Wind's life and revealed the
truth beneath the lies of the Immaculate Order.
Now, Wind has not only the power to defeat
the unrighteous, but also the purpose and
potential that the Immaculate Order's
delusions would have squandered. He is
grateful to the Unconquered Sun for this
blessing and considers it his duty to prove
that the god invested it wisely.

He demonstrated the ability to discard dogma and preconceived notions for the evidence in front of him to save people from monsters. That earned him his exaltation. As others of his caste, had a direct visitation by the Sun.

Summary: hero.

Life history:

Arianna was never a nice little girl. A life of quiet marital
servitude to some piggish oaf and his snotty, demanding brats
was not for her. At age 14, when her parents announced that
they'd chosen her a husband, she ran away, haring north
out of the Hundred Kingdoms in search of a more enlight-
ened society. She thought she'd found it in the Northern
city of Rylea, which claimed to have the grandest library
of ancient lore in the entire region. Arianna made her way
there and did her best to insinuate herself into the society of
the scholars in residence. In trying to do so, she found that
Rylea was a chauvinist kingdom no more enlightened than
her own home despite the treasure trove of knowledge its
library offered. The scholars were too proud to accept her
as one of their own but plenty willing to let her stay on as
a serving girl. One even tried to make a biddable mistress
of her. She told the scholar's wife, who—it turned out—
had a notorious temper and a father connected to Rylea's
criminal underground. That scholar was never seen again,
and none of the others approached Arianna with similar
intentions thereafter.

So far, the least righteous of them all and the most selfish. Still, she is characterized by trying to find a place for herself that would appreciate her on her merit and talent, not her gender or circumstances of birth. That's fairly respectable.

Circumstances of exaltation:

That settled, Arianna proved herself a quick study with
as sharp a mind as any man at the library had. She read and
studied in the hours not devoted to cooking and cleaning,
always assuming that her intellect would eventually win the
scholars over and earn her a place among them. In all the
years she spent there, that never happened. Fortunately,
before she snapped and made something regrettable happen
to another of Rylea's most respected men, a higher author-
ity elevated Arianna to the station she'd worked so hard to
achieve. It came over her not in a bonfire of Essence or in
the heat of battle, but in a subtle moment as she puzzled
out the subtext in an innocuous-seeming book that none
of the other Rylean scholars had deemed important. She
knew from earlier readings exactly what she had become
and that the Immaculate Order's "Anathema" label was a
self-aggrandizing sham.

Again, true neutral. "Achieve great feat, get exalted".

Characterization post-exaltation:

Arianna is a self-absorbed woman, driven to retake
every right and advantage to which she feels her Exaltation
entitles her. In her pursuit of that goal, she will stop at noth-
ing short of betraying those of her associates who can best
help her achieve it. Those associates currently include her
circlemates—Dace, Panther, Harmonious Jade and Swan.
Of them, she most appreciates the Eclipse Caste, Swan, who
saved her life, has proven himself a competent sidekick and
seems the least inclined to argue with her when she's trying
to get things done. Her feelings for her circlemates are based
more on respect than honest affection, however.

Summary: not a hero, but not a villain either. True neutral to lawful evil, I would wager? Still has principles, and is capable of respecting others.

Life history:

Were Jasara of a mind to find contentment in idle plea-
sures, she could have lived a blissful life in one of the Second
Age's most wondrous cities. At that life's end, however, she
would have died forgotten, having made no contribution
to the welfare of Creation. She certainly never would have
Exalted. Fortunately for her, and for Creation, idleness is
not in her nature.
Born to a Guild factor's mistress, Jasara was raised
in Chiaroscuro in the old city west of the harbor. She
was a lovely child, growing up surrounded by First
Age amenities in one of the city's least ruined and
most prosperous neighborhoods. Nothing was denied
her, from the most skillful tutors to the finest foods
to the best clothes and cleverest playmates—all the
advantages her mother would have wanted in her
own childhood. Yet, even from an early age, Jasara's
mind was ravenous. She bored easily. Easy city liv-
ing stifled her, and having things handed to her
was no challenge. In her daydreams, she planned
to run away and be a scavenger lord or a bandit
princess or a wandering thaumaturge or an actor
or a circus acrobat…
To keep her occupied (and safe at home),
Jasara's mother filled their home with books and
scrolls and other such materials, which Jasara devoured
almost as fast as they showed up. It worked for a while,
but Jasara's teenage heart could not be contained so
easily. When she felt she was old enough to take care
of herself, she made secret trips all over the city to
meet scholars and workers and rogues of all stripes
who could teach her more than she could ever learn in
books. Languages, trades, thaumaturgy… until she could
figure out what one thing she wanted to do for the rest of
her life, she would try a little bit of everything. She even
experimented with the Dereth lifestyle off and on, though
she could never quite figure out its appeal.

A brighter mirror to Arianna, a child born to wealth who wasn't content to sit idly.

Circumstances of exaltation:

Jasara's aimless search throughout Chiaroscuro for her
life's path eventually led her into the less safe and more
ruined parts of the old city. Dodging the unsavory scaven-
gers, vicious squatters and hungry ghosts who preyed on the
unwary there was a thrill at first, but the thrill soon became
a calling. It happened the day she discovered the tower.
A preliminary geomantic study of an area deep in the
ruins revealed a confluence of dragon lines, on which
she found a First Age structure that had withstood
the destruction that had befallen the rest of its
neighborhood. It drew her to it, guiding her unerr-
ingly through the rubble into a maze of mirrors and
crystal at its base. In a dreamlike trance, she followed
ghostly images of a strangely familiar blond-haired boy
through the maze to a staircase at its center. At the top of
the stairs, Jasara found herself in an automated library that
came alive around her. It spoke to her in the language of
the Old Realm—which she had only ever seen written but
never heard spoken aloud—welcoming her by the sobriquet
"Copper Spider." It was not until Jasara caught a glimpse of
herself in one of the crystal walls and saw the glowing mark
on her forehead that she understood what it meant and what
she had become.

That's some acausal fate shenanigans going here. Or maybe not, and it's just flowery language. Still, also a neutral exaltation, but with a positive tint to it.

Summary: not a hero exactly directly, but a neutral good character. It's spelled directly: it's fortunate both for her and for Creation that she exalted. She's one of the good ones.

Life history:

Sayn's mother was the exiled illegitimate
daughter of a Dynast. When her family ostra-
cized her as a worthless by-blow, she sought shelter
and anonymity at an insignificant Southwest-
ern village too small to even have a name.
Sayn's father was the smith for that village,
who had lived there every day of his
life and intended to die there. From
his mother, Sayn learned to read and
write and work mathematics. From
his father, Sayn learned
the skills of
the smith's
trade and the satisfac-
tion to be found in hard
work done well. Tragically,
his parents both died in a local epi-
demic of wasting fever when Sayn was
16, leaving the village's livelihood more
or less in his hands. With his surviving
friends and neighbors counting on him
and the peaceful rest of his parents'
souls depending on him, he took up
his father's hammer and assumed the
man's place at the forge. He toiled
there for decades, growing stronger
and more skilled as life in the vil-
lage went on. It was the life of a
Child of Earth, but a secure one
to which Sayn felt himself well
suited.

Pretty heroic already. Someone who looks after his people, and tries to help.

Circumstances of exaltation:

A merciless drought struck the land, parching nearby villages
and slowly sucking the life from his own. All he could do
was work tirelessly at his forge, but he yearned for the skill
to do something, anything, to save his home. In desperation,
he even cried out for mercy to the
Unconquered Sun, whose relentless heat
seemed the cause of the region's immi-
nent ruin. And in that desperation, Sayn
received an answer. Blue and red fires of
Essence leapt out from his body, filling him
with power and reminding him of ancient
days when the Chosen of the Sun ruled
the world. Flush with energy and
ancient memories, Sayn stalked
away from his smithy to a section of
the cliff overlooking the village.
There, with one mighty blow of
his heavy hammer, he freed a river
that had been trapped and buried
beneath the cliff face since time
out of mind.

"Save my people, oh Sun!" he cried, and the Sun responded "Take this gift, and save them with your own hands". A hero as much as anyone is. And not one to become a warlord:

Once they'd drunk their fill
and tired themselves out splash-
ing in the icy water like children,
the grateful villagers would have
made Sayn a king or a warlord
if he'd asked them to. Yet, the
smith knew that only ruin
lay in that self-indulgent
direction. Instead, he
asked only that they let
him remain there among
them as their smith and
spiritual leader. He longed
to try to re-create the wonders that he could barely remember
from the First Age and to build new ones that would serve
the people of Creation as never before, but he would need
peace and space for such work.

Summary: hero

Life history:

Elias had a
sharp mind, but it seemed he would rather be a rascal than
the good boy his parents wanted him to be. And every year
he got worse instead of growing out of it.
At their wits' end, Elias's parents turned to Shalas,
Elias's shady uncle. He saw the kind of boy Elias was and
gladly agreed to take him in and raise him right. Cowed by
Shalas's commanding presence, Elias feared he was in for
years of stentorian, militaristic tyranny. He was not, however,
as good a judge of character as Shalas was. Forgoing strict
discipline, Shalas honed Elias's sharp mind with ciphers,
foreign customs and games of strategy instead. He equipped
Elias not with the useless skills of an effete noble, but the
subtle arsenal of a sophisticated spy. When his training was
complete, Elias joined Shalas as his aide in the Ears of the
North—the Haslanti League's espionage service.
They worked together in the
Speakers of Zephyr and Storm, car-
rying out espionage missions under
the aegis of the Haslanti diplomatic
corps. Elias got to travel and serve his
country, and Uncle Shalas treated him
like an important grownup. Then, in
just a few short years, he actually was
an important grownup poised to take
over when Shalas retired.

Circumstances of exaltation:

If not for the intervention of the
Unconquered Sun in Elias's 23rd year,
however, that would never have happened. While on a
daring mission into Cherak, Elias and Shalas were caught
and thrown in a dungeon by a Dragon-Blooded agent of the
All-Seeing Eye. Slow torture and death seemed all that lay in
their future—assuming they didn't break and make themselves
traitors to the League, of course—until Elias's destiny came
due. An array of preternatural abilities became available
to him, and with them, he was able to affect his and
his uncle's escape. They eventually made their way
back home and reported to the Council of Oligarchs
everything that had happened. The Oligarchs were
skeptical at first, but Shalas smoothed the way,
and Elias convinced them that his loyalty lay
with the League and that all his powers were
at their disposal. They remained wary, but
the opportunity presented by having such
an operative in their employ was too good
to pass up.

Summary: Is James Bond a hero? To the people of Great Britain for sure. To, say, Afghani or USSR citizens that's arguable. I would put him in "neutral" area, closer to Dace, and above Arianna in morality. Notably, however, he doesn't try to take over.

Life history:

she grew
up a slave to a snakeman named Nisius Chen, but he
didn't buy her for sex or hard labor. No, he trained her
to be the star acrobat in the five-ring Gerontine Circus,
of which he was the ringleader. He also trained her to be
a cat burglar, using her to wring more money out of the
towns the Gerontine visited than mere ticket sales and
concessions could ever drum up. Nisius even let
her set aside her cut of the criminal proceeds
toward buying her eventual free-
dom. Faka Kun eagerly
took every job Nisius
suggested, hop-
ing to one
day make
her way
to White
Refuge—the free
Djala enclave out in
the Southern desert. She was
not the first Djala acrobat
Nisius had worked into an
early grave chasing that
dream, but unrealistic
hope was better than
no hope at all.

A child slave working towards her liberation. And exalting in its pursuit:

It was in pursuit
of White Refuge that
Faka Kun came to
recognize her Celestial
destiny. The circus was
performing in the Lap,
and she was trying
to lift a set of jade
razor claws from
the imperial sa-
trap's mansion. She got in all right and
even managed to find the razor claws, but she
tripped an alarm on the way out. At that moment, she
could have surrendered or relinquished her prize, but she
didn't do either. Her freedom was riding on getting out
with the goods—she had to try. As she made her deci-
sion, a rush of conviction accompanied it. The Laplander
guards quickly cornered her, but they were no match for
the Unconquered Sun's newest Night Caste.

But not a selfish child, instead one earning her title of "Liberator":

Faka Kun returned home reinvigorated, but she didn't
go straight to Nisius. Instead, she went to her fellow slaves
and told them what had happened. It broke her heart to
see the spirit drain from their faces as they listened to her.
That was it, they said. She would disappear from their lives
to go do… whatever the Exalted did… but they would still
be slaves until they died. So Faka Kun made the second
fateful decision of that evening. Rather than take her prize
to Nisius and buy her freedom with it, she kept it and stole
the Djala out of the Gerontine instead. When word of
the theft at the satrap's mansion reached Nisius,
he had not a slave left to his name. When word
of that theft got to him shortly thereafter,
Faka Kun had returned once more for
the circus's cash box.
...
To her surprise
as much as theirs, she
gave the leftover money
to the keepers of the Djala
enclave as soon as she got
there and turned around to
leave once more. There were still
more Djala out there with no-
body looking out for them, she
explained, not to mention too
many rich fools with nobody
looking out for their money. If
she didn't do anything about that, nobody would.

Summary: a hero and liberator of her people

Life history:

He was a respectful, pragmatic funerist
in the Morticians' Order of Sijan. It was his duty to observe
the proper rites to placate the dead, and he was content to
remain in the bleak city until the day his future replace-
ment performed the old familiar rites over him.

An upstanding member of society.

Exaltation story is interesting, but honestly doesn't give enough info on his heroism:

The heart-wrenching flare occurred in Jiunan's 23rd year,
on the day a delegation from Port Calin brought a woman to
Sijan to die. She seemed no older than Jiunan and in
no worse health, and she was beautiful. All the living
are beautiful in that city, but she shone like the stars
on a moonless night. As her escorts led her to the
mortwrights, Jiunan followed silently. She remained
in their care for some time, and all Jiunan could do
was wait, hoping to catch one last glimpse of her.
Shortly, a second delegation arrived. It consisted
of four armored nemissaries and a terrible figure in
white robes and a broad, conical hat of woven bones.
The figure carried a gruesome battle-axe of moan-
ing soulsteel. His name was White Bone Sinner—a
deathknight envoy of the Walker in Darkness.
The deathknight summoned a deadspeaker
and the Calinti woman's guards and with-
drew to speak to the mortwrights. Hours
later, the Calinti guards departed with
expressions equally disturbed and
relieved. The deathknight's party
departed later. The Calinti woman
left with them.
Jiunan's heart skipped. His
breath caught. Alive, the wom-
an had been beautiful; dead, she
was simply impossible. Hope-
lessly rapt, Jiunan followed
the grim party across Sijan,
working up his courage. The
shadows seemed to deepen and
move with him as he crept ever
closer. Finally, before the delegation could make
it across the Bridge of the Fallen and disappear
into the Underworld, Jiunan caught up and took
the Calinti woman's cold, dead hand. He had
only enough time to ask her if she wanted to go
with the deathknight. She shook her head, and
the look in her eyes burned itself into Jiunan's memory
as a golden ring flashed into existence on his forehead.

So, it's a story of love and death knights.

Summary: not enough to say, I think, about his general heroism, but not evil either.

Life history:

As a youth, he had
made good money aboard a merchant dunerunner traversing
the sandy trade routes of the Sun's Sea. As an adult, he had
become a respected captain of his own trusty dunerunner,
claiming his own trade routes and forging strong relation-
ships in the desert communities they connected. By early
middle age, he had made himself an admiral, organizing
the comings and goings of
a fleet—though from a
desk rather than the
deck of a far-traveling
vessel. When he finally
reached retirement
age and could settle
down in comfort,
he did so with
a light heart.
Never once had he mortgaged his honor, neither out of fear
nor for the rush of easy jade. Of his many accomplishments,
the one of which he was most proud was helping to engineer
the gradual transformation of the loose community of like-
minded traders at Oasis, the aptly named desert community
where he lived, into a strong mercantile confederation of
good-natured commercial pioneers.

And again, and again, and again - honorful, respected. Worthy. Jack the Rippers, and Jokers don't become exalts. Lenins and Chingis Khans might, but raving lunatics don't.

Anyway, moving on. Circumstances of exalting:

Sand could not say now when he realized that
things were out of control. He simply looked around
one day and saw that his bright, peaceful Oasis was now
shabby, its people petty, its fountains dribbling dirty water.
And it wasn't just Oasis that was in decline. The news from
outside showed that the rest of the South was headed the
same way. Perhaps all of Creation was slowly coming un-
done. It had to be stopped, Sand realized, and in a moment
of clarity, he saw how that could be accomplished. Starting
at Oasis, he could set the world on a path to righteousness.
First, he would have to confront those who had let his home
come to its current deplorable state. He burst in on a raucous
meeting of the young dons, demanding that they answer for
their sins and sloth. They wanted to dismiss him as a raving
old man past his prime, but his fury was undeniable. So too
was the white-gold ring-and-circle mark upon his forehead
and the gleaming saber of sunlight that had appeared in his
hand. Minutes later, more than two-thirds of the dons lay
dead. The rest were too terrified to flee. With his newfound
power, he bound them in oaths of obligation, taking control
of the confederation he had helped to found. In no time at
all, he had cleaned up and restored Oasis and reinvigorated
its commercial pioneers once more.

This one is a visionary, and his motivation reflects this:

Motivation: To connect and improve the lives of Cre-
ation's people through a network of upright and virtuous
free trade

Summary: if he succeeds, he is sure to be called a hero, and his motivation in noble. In its pursuit, I expect, rivers of blood will flow. Still, I would say he's a hero, for he is sincerely not doing it for himself but for all Creation.

Yeah, it's Arianna all over again, and the ?, the Righteous Devil. Not enough to tell, but read it and think for yourself:

Once upon a time, a rich Guild factor in the city of
Port Calin had a lovely young daughter who was his pride
and joy. She had a quick mind, a nimble body, a good heart
and a pretty face. The factor wanted nothing more than for
his lovely girl to take up the family business and become a
rich Guild factor herself. But the girl loved art and beauty
more than money, and she fled Port Calin for
Nexus, the City of 10,000 Sins. Free of her
father's unrealistic expectations, she lived
there happily ever after.
Once upon a time, there lived a beautiful
and talented actress in Nexus,
the poisoned heart of the
Scavenger Lands. She
deigned to fall in
love with a poet
and be his muse,
but he took ill and
began to waste
away before her
eyes. Her inspira-
tion, the actress knew,
was driving her beloved
into an early grave. The
poet had not yet composed
the masterpiece that was
worthy of being the last thing
he would ever write, so the
actress abandoned him. (As
much as she loved him,
the actress loved his talent
more.) The poet's tears fell on
his sickbed, and his withered
hand clutched at the air
where she had been. The
poet never died, and the
actress lived happily
ever after.

Circumstances of exaltation:

Once upon a
time, there lived a
woman who toured
the Scavenger Lands
in a traveling carnival
with those who considered
themselves her peers. Addicted to
bright morning and to the adulation of
an amazed crowd, the performer desired to spin for
the gods of Great Forks a glorious tale that would
win her their adoring patronage. In that tale, she
was partnered with a dishonest carnival barker who used his
legitimate travels to conceal criminal activities. The heroic
champions of Great Forks uncovered this illicit activity
in the tale's second act—as heroic champions inevitably
do—and confronted the criminal partners. While speaking
in her defense, the performer was dramatically, perhaps
conveniently, graced by the Unconquered Sun and spoke
so eloquently that the Spinner of Glorious Tales himself
came to listen. The duplicitous barker was executed for his
crimes, but the unknowing performer saw to it that the rest
of the carnival's crew was spared. Talespinner took her in
to educate her, and she lived happily ever after.

Summary: Hydra Dominatus! No, seriously, her text ends with "…if any of these stories are true.". Alpharius of current exalted crop. Might be very heroic. Might be entirely selfish and evil. We don't know.

Life history:

His father was a career naval officer in the Coral Ar-
chipelago, but the sailor's life was not for Swan. Instead, he
chose to join the diplomatic corps. It offered all the glory
and civil service with none of the blood-
shed. While his elder brothers
became sailors and marines,
and his sister cemented
a political alliance
through marriage,
Swan learned his-
tory, culture,
geography, poli-
tics, outdoor
survival and
martial arts.
When his adult
life dawned, he
left home as
a junior dip-
lomat to work
his nation's will
in the world at
large. He trav-
eled, he bargained,
he maneuvered, he mingled.
He was every bit the Coral
Archipelago's romantic ideal of
the heroic traveling diplomat.

I highlited the key part "the very romantic ideal of a hero".

The circumstance of the exaltation are a bit sketchy, to be honest:

One can't train for everything,
though, which Swan learned one evening
by a roadside through a Northern forest. As
he rounded a bend, a proud, graceful rider on a
glittering horse of pure Essence came fleeing his
way from a pack of armed and armored Dragon-
Bloods. She was Anathema; they constituted
a Wyld Hunt. Yet, something happened in
Swan's mind, and the utter temerity of
Terrestrials daring to take up arms
against their betters outraged him
as it had once before in a time
he couldn't remember. Rather
than stand aside or flee,
he interposed himself
between the Dragon-
Bloods and their prey
before they could
land a killing blow.
His courage must
have impressed the
Unconquered Sun, for that great god's power suddenly
flooded into him and gave him the ability to make his stand
matter. He and the once-fleeing Solar—whose name was
Arianna—turned the tables on the Wyld Hunt and killed
them side by side.

But his motivations are clear:

He has some inkling now
of why the Dragon-Blooded
did what they did to bring
about the end of the First
Age, and he's glad of that
knowledge. Perhaps
he can use it to keep
the same thing from
happening all over
again. Perhaps, if he
and others like him
work hard enough,
the Third Age can
outshine the previous
two and last forever.
Swan has an in-
tense desire to make
his family back in the
Coral Archipelago proud
of him. That feeling drove
him to join the Coral diplo-
matic corps originally, as he
didn't want his distaste for the
military lifestyle to seem like a
disappointing weakness in his father's
eyes. (He could still be a well-traveled
man of action as a junior diplomat, but
he wouldn't have to kill people to make a
point.) His aims are grander now that he's
Exalted, but his feelings still hark back to
his family on the rare occasions when
he isn't sure what to do.

Summary: "The very ideal of a heroic deplomat" - do I need to say more?

Life story and exaltation story all at once:

Yurgen Kaneko was a member of an icewalker tribe of the farthest North. He had been a great hunter, warrior and leader of his tribe, but now he was old. Alive beyond his time, he walked out onto the ice alone, weaponless, to find death. Instead, he found his rebirth.

Willing to commit suicide for the good of his people, he instead gets a chance to serve his people more. With it, he helps his people to protect themselves, and, yes, raid their neighbors:

A Child of the Sun, Yurgen found that his age no longer mattered. His body was strong, and his mind was sharp. His people listened when he spoke, and with his skill at war, he led them to many victories. His tribe savaged the soft men ofthe cities and fought off the raids of the Fair Folk and the dead. Impressed by his power, other icewalker tribes joined him. When the Wyld Hunt came, as Yurgen knew it would, he led them through the Silver Wastes and the Snow Blossom Cascades, regions that the icewalkers knew well. Weakening the Hunt with his great endurance, Yurgen assaulted the Dragon-Bloods at their moment of weakness.

Summary: Hero to his people.

Life and exaltation story:

As a baby, Harmonious Jade was sold into slavery to the Salmalin, a cult in the South dedicated to the worship of the Yozis. Trained in the arts of assassination from the time she could walk, Jade became an accomplished killer for hire, and every murder she committed added to the coffers of the demon cult. Knowing nothing else, the assassin Jade was content doing what she was trained to do for her masters in the Salmalin, until a botched assignment led her to be Exalted by the Unconquered Sun.

The least heroic of them all, I think. A worse version of Faka Kun the liberator. And still an assassin:

Still unsure of what to do with her newfound power, and with no guidance forthcoming from the Unconquered Sun, Jade has continued to ply her trade as an assassin. Her services are in high demand, for there are few who can defend themselves from a Night Caste determined to bring about their deaths. However, over the course of her Exalted career, Harmonious Jade has made many enemies, from the Salmalin and their demonic patrons to the Deathlord Walker in Darkness and Nexus's Council of Entities. Unless she finds allies and direction, it seems unlikely given the strength of the enemies arrayed against her that she'll survive long enough to fulfill the purpose for which she was Exalted.

Summary: a lost child who somehow got awesome cosmic power. Not a hero (yet).

So, to summarize, out of 17 examples canonically provided, there are only two who I would say are definiteily not heroic in the modern sense - Arianna and Harmonious Jade. For Mirror Flag we don't know the truth enough, but her activities seem heroic. For Jiunan Nightwarden we plainly don't know enough at all. Dace, Bull of the North and Elias Tremalion are heroes to their people, and not so good to others.

Almost all of them (safe for Harmonius Jade, really) are described in various terms as "respectable". Generous interpretation would leave us with 88% heroes, and the worst interpretation would give us 59% pure heroes, with 12% selfish potential monsters and the rest somewhere in the middle (but leaning good, I think).

20% (Zeniths) get direct quests and enlightenment by UC. That's the minimum who are directly selected on the basis of their morality and character.

Whatever else is written, the actual examples provided indicate that solar exaltations overwhelmingly go to heroic people. In the modern f*cking sense. To those who are respectable by others, place others before themselves, strive to establish and maintain a working human society. Who value others and the world. Yog, signing out.

Now, I have to go and do analysis of the f*cking Greek myth to demonstrate that 'hero in the Greek sense" is still a f*cking hero.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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