Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

BoredMan · Jan 17, 2024

Yog said:
Also, this is paranoid.

You guys keep using that word but it doesn't apply here. Caution is not unjustified after being attacked, nor is any fear we may have of being attacked baseless after just being assualted only seconds prior removing a solid chunk of our health in the process.

We were just stabbed in the back while occupied with defending this place from a Blampire, who we warned them of, after he attacked the servitor. He made it seem like we were on his side only for us to turn around and chop him in half in the next instant, only to get stabbed afterwords. We have no reason to trust it after getting stabbed in the back while defending this place so why are we asking the Crown how to fix it? Why is that higher priority than assuring Molly's well being?

BoredMan · Jan 17, 2024

Degorium said:
You know a terminal loss of primary function in any sense of a living construct means it's dying right

We don't know what it's primary fuction even is so no we don't know that it's dying. Your making baseless assumptions here.

uju32 · Jan 17, 2024

Yog said:
1) Po-tayt-o po-tah-to. It's an embodied artificial intelligence. Because it has a body, it is clearly artificial, and it is clearly intelligent enough to communicate with humans for a long time.

2) Possible, but very unlikely based on everything else

3) Most likely it's a recreation / patch job. Someone in ancient Egypt found some Age of Legends artifact or spirit or whatever, and repaired / repurposed it using what they had available. So electrium instead of orichalcium, marble instead of magical jade, etc. Note that we have seemed to knock out the egyptian overlay - the color of the text, the language used, and the words spoken changed once it ran into an error.

4) Yeah, ok, I misremembered.

5) Then use the crown. If you are assuming that it is lying and pretending then talking to it doesn't help.

1) No, there's a difference.
AI is used for disembodied intelligences. Constructs are discrete entities who are in whole in the same body.

===
2) No idea.

===
3)Cant be.
For one thing, patchwork would be obvious. And there is zero evidence that many, if any, non-Exalts can repair the products of Exalted crafting in this AU. And if they could, they sure as hell wouldnt be using WOOD.

Secondly, First Age crafters worked in magical materials for this kind of thing, in orichalcum, moonsilver, jade, starmetal, soulsteel and adamant. None of that is evident here, at all. The idea that you can simply substitute shit like electrum for orichalcum seems as implausible as the idea of substituting glass for diamond in a cutting tool.

This is pretty clearly downtime work.
Specifically, cedarwood is native to the western Himalayas and the Mediterranean at elevations of 1000-3000m, which tells us where the raw materials were sourced, and where the maker likely lived.

===
5)After we try and get further information to expand our understanding and refine our choice of questions?
THEN I would use the Crown.
We dont have an excess of Crown foci that relate to this thing.

Yog said:
Also, this is paranoid.

Our missing 9 HLs disagrees.
We've gotten stabbed twice; getting stabbed more is inexcusable.

Yog said:
No, there is no such implication. "I am suffering a stroke" does not imply that "I do not have a flu".

There is a difference between Function and Primary Function.
Its choice of words appear to have been very specific.

Degorium said:
You know a terminal loss of primary function in any sense of a living construct means it's dying right.

Yeah, no.
You literally have no idea what its primary function is supposed to be.
Thats a wildass claim to make.

If my TV's cable connectors stop working, its primary function to watch broadcast TV is gone.
It doesnt stop me using it as a computer monitor.

Similarly, if my laptop's batteries die and arent replaced, I can no longer use it in its primary function as a mobile device.
That doesnt mean I cant use it plugged in to the mains as a home computer.
I could go on.

Degorium · Jan 17, 2024

BoredMan said:
You guys keep using that word but it doesn't apply here. Caution is not unjustified after being attacked, nor is any fear we may have of being attacked baseless after just being assualted only seconds prior removing a solid chunk of our health in the process.

We were just stabbed in the back while occupied with defending this place from a Blampire, who we warned them of, after he attacked the servitor. He made it seem like we were on his side only for us to turn around and chop him in half in the next instant, only to get stabbed afterwords. We have no reason to trust it after getting stabbed in the back while defending this place so why are we asking the Crown how to fix it? Why is that higher priority than assuring Molly's well being?

That stabbing happened in the same three seconds that we killed the black vampire and hostility stop the second it's over you can't claim it's being stabbed in the back while defending when in the instance you're just another one of the combatants the second it appears like yes you were actually helping the hostility stop. Not the least of the facts were it was trying to make us go away before any of the hostilities broke out to begin with.

The reason it's higher priority is because this is a competent servitor of an Allied force in a city full of Outsiders and Outsider pawns on top of being a semi sentient being who is suffering a collapse of magic due to our presence. Unlike the servitor who might have inhuman motivations the human motivations of this clergy when we destroy a religious artifact via our presence here is to tell us to leave and never ever return and not listen to us again.

Also if we want to have any further relationship with this particular group of people letting this servitor die is a certain way to never have to interact with them again because no one likes it when you destroy their religious artifacts.

Yog · Jan 17, 2024

uju32 said:
1) No, there's a difference.
AI is used for disembodied intelligences. Constructs are discrete entities who are in whole in the same body.

===
2) No idea.

===
3)Cant be.
For one thing, patchwork would be obvious. And there is zero evidence that many, if any, non-Exalts can repair the products of Exalted crafting in this AU. And if they could, they sure as hell wouldnt be using WOOD.

Secondly, First Age crafters worked in magical materials for this kind of thing, in orichalcum, moonsilver, jade, starmetal, soulsteel and adamant. None of that is evident here, at all. The idea that you can simply substitute shit like electrum for orichalcum seems as implausible as the idea of substituting glass for diamond in a cutting tool.

This is pretty clearly downtime work.
Specifically, cedarwood is native to the western Himalayas and the Mediterranean at elevations of 1000-3000m, which tells us where the raw materials were sourced, and where the maker likely lived.

===
5)After we try and get further information to refine our choice of questions?
THEN I would use the Crown.
We dont have an excess of Crown foci that relate to this thing.

Our missing 9 HLs disagrees.
We've gotten stabbed twice; getting stabbed more is inexcusable.

There is a difference between Function and Primary Function.
Its choice of words appear to have been very specific.

1) This is not a commonly accepted distinction at all, as far as I am aware. In fact, this is the first time I hear about it, and it seems a) arbitrary, b) counter intuitive to plain language used.

3) Perhaps the word patchwork is not the best to use. Recreation? Imitation? Restoration? Find an old remnant from Age of Legends, almost completely worn away, tey to remake it. House an almost dead spirit in a new body. Stuff like that. So farz we have no evidence that anything but software is from the Age of Legends.

5) We don't have time. It just ran into a critical error. It is crashing in real time.

6) Primary function vs. Function - you are reading to much into this, inventing stuff that isn't there.

Degorium · Jan 17, 2024

BoredMan said:
We don't know what it's primary fuction even is so no we don't know that it's dying. Your making baseless assumptions here.

uju32 said:
1) No, there's a difference.
AI is used for disembodied intelligences. Constructs are discrete entities who are in whole in the same body.

===
2) No idea.

===
3)Cant be.
For one thing, patchwork would be obvious. And there is zero evidence that many, if any, non-Exalts can repair the products of Exalted crafting in this AU. And if they could, they sure as hell wouldnt be using WOOD.

Secondly, First Age crafters worked in magical materials for this kind of thing, in orichalcum, moonsilver, jade, starmetal, soulsteel and adamant. None of that is evident here, at all. The idea that you can simply substitute shit like electrum for orichalcum seems as implausible as the idea of substituting glass for diamond in a cutting tool.

This is pretty clearly downtime work.
Specifically, cedarwood is native to the western Himalayas and the Mediterranean at elevations of 1000-3000m, which tells us where the raw materials were sourced, and where the maker likely lived.

===
5)After we try and get further information to refine our choice of questions?
THEN I would use the Crown.
We dont have an excess of Crown foci that relate to this thing.

Our missing 9 HLs disagrees.
We've gotten stabbed twice; getting stabbed more is inexcusable.

There is a difference between Function and Primary Function.
Its choice of words appear to have been very specific.

Yeah, no.
You literally have no idea what its primary function is supposed to be.
Thats a wildass claim to make.

If my TV's cable connectors stop working, its primary function to watch broadcast TV is gone.
It doesnt stop me using it as a computer monitor.

Similarly, if my laptop's batteries die and arent replaced, I can no longer use it in its primary function as a mobile device.
That doesnt mean I cant use it plugged in to the mains as a home computer.
I could go on.

Notice I said living construct there not cable box. Secondly we do know that is how that works because we can make Arcana. We know that they're built for a purpose whether they're fulfilling that purpose all the time is questionable but they are built to fulfill a need and then awakened with magic. They're also still living constructs capable of learning and changing with time. Suffering a critical functionality failure when you're a living construct made with magic for a purpose means that you are fucking dying. You know what you call a Golem with no animating Magic a statue.

BoredMan · Jan 17, 2024

Degorium said:
The reason it's higher priority is because this is a competent servitor of an Allied force in a city full of Outsiders and Outsider pawns on top of being a semi sentient being who is suffering a collapse of magic due to our presence. Unlike the servitor who might have inhuman motivations the human motivations of this clergy when we destroy a religious artifact via our presence here is to tell us to leave and never ever return and not listen to us again.

Also if we want to have any further relationship with this particular group of people letting this servitor die is a certain way to never have to interact with them again because no one likes it when you destroy their religious artifacts.

Agree to disagree then. If Molly gets killed the quest is over period. It's our highest priority fullstop to avoid death and I can't see for the life of me how someone could view that differently.

And again. We didn't even touch the damn thing. If it blows up for reasons we can only speculate(maybe it hasn't been maintained and any activity would've caused this?) that is not our fault. We will not have destroyed jack shit.

Degorium said:
Suffering a critical functionality failure when you're a living construct made with magic for a purpose means that you are fucking dying.

We have no idea how this thing functions so you can't say that at all. You need proof to make such claims and you have none whatsoever. Forgive me if I don't take your word as gospel.

BoredMan · Jan 17, 2024

Yog said:
1) This is not a commonly accepted distinction at all, as far as I am aware. In fact, this is the first time I hear about it, and it seems a) arbitrary, b) counter intuitive to plain language used.

I think @uju32 is refering to the difference between an AI and a Virtual Intelligence. One can react to new stimuli and develop new responces just like a human. The other can only use algorithms to react to stimuli in preprogrammed ways. In the later case it's not actually sapient it just mimics it.

uju32 · Jan 17, 2024

Degorium said:
That stabbing happened in the same three seconds that we killed the black vampire and hostility stop the second it's over you can't claim it's being stabbed in the back while defending when in the instance you're just another one of the combatants the second it appears like yes you were actually helping the hostility stop. Not the least of the facts were it was trying to make us go away before any of the hostilities broke out to begin with.

That defense rather lost all basis when it prioritized attacking Molly over the person who actually shot it.
Sorry.

Degorium said:
The reason it's higher priority is because this is a competent servitor of an Allied force in a city full of Outsiders and Outsider pawns on top of being a semi sentient being who is suffering a collapse of magic due to our presence. Unlike the servitor who might have inhuman motivations the human motivations of this clergy when we destroy a religious artifact via our presence here is to tell us to leave and never ever return and not listen to us again.

Everything in that bolded section is false.

From the claims of competence (it didnt detect the vampire in its own temple, it took the vampire at its word and fell for its ruse, and attacked an invited guest and ally), the claim of Outsiders (we've seen and heard of none in Vegas, and only know of one Outsider cultist) and the claim that its state is our fault(Infernal Akuma existed in the First and Second Age, starting with Thrice-Damned Gorol; if our existence is breaking its mind, its programming was already fucked long before we got here)

Degorium said:
Also if we want to have any further relationship with this particular group of people letting this servitor die is a certain way to never have to interact with them again because no one likes it when you destroy their religious artifacts.

We have NO duty of care towards this construct. None. Nobody expects us to have any.
Let alone to risk our lives at its hands in order to fix it after it stabbed us. Especially not at a time when our life is supposed to be important in stopping Sandra's plans for Las Vegas.

Im generally the bleeding heart here, who will go out of their way to propose that we intervene on other people's behalf.
Im the person who is arguing on Lloyd Slate's behalf.
So it should say something when I'm saying thats a bullshit argument.

Its a truism in emergency response that responders need to prioritize their own safety first, else they just create two sets of victims.

Degorium · Jan 17, 2024

BoredMan said:
We have no idea how this thing functions so you can't say that at all. You need proof to make such claims and you have none whatsoever. Forgive me if I don't take your word as gospel.

Arcana are magical servants, slaves, familiars, or companions. They are magical creations capable of independent motion and action. Where Prodigies are enchanted items, Arcana are enchanted beings. Arcana vary widely, depending on the sort of Essence used to give them a semblance of life. As a result, different sorts of Exalts may create different varieties of Arcana.
Broadly, Arcana break down into the following categories:
Golems are made from stone, wood, clay, metal, and the like. Though they may be roughly humanoid in body plan, they will never be mistaken for human. A golem's chief virtue is generally that it is stronger and more durable than other sorts of Arcana.

We know this Golem is an Arcana because it's speaking old Realm.

Qualities of Arcana
Arcana can vary tremendously, but at a baseline they have a number of qualities in common. It
should be remembered that these qualities can be altered through designer intent or error, or
through the growth of exceptional Arcana. They are, ultimately, a baseline, not hard boundaries
of Arcana existence:
• Arcana come into existence able to perform their functions. Arcana generally don't need to
be educated. They know the things they need to know to do the things they're made to do. A
librarian-ephemera knows how to read, how to organize, and is in all respects a qualified
librarian. Most Arcana can understand and speak their creator's native language (assuming they
possess a mouth or other means of expression).
• Arcana possess a general understanding of the world. Arcana are not baffled by the
existence of airplanes, cars, animals, or humans. They know what countries are. They know what
laws are. They know what children are. They are able to navigate the world on a basic level to
perform their tasks.
• Arcana do not possess specific knowledge outside of their intended functions. Arcana are
bereft of trivia, unless being receptacles of information is their primary function. Arcana know
that the mortal world is governed by laws, and thus know not to to smash a window and start
looting things with police watching. They don't know the specific nuances of the law, unless
designed to do so. They can't tell you who won particular historical battles, run down the pros
and cons of different sorts of firearms, or identify major figures in organized crime. Arcana can
dress themselves, but not in a well-coordinated outfit except by luck.
• Arcana are able to learn things. While it might not understand why polo slacks don't go with
a halter top at first, Arcana can observe their surroundings and figure things out if they're smart
enough. They can be taught. They can be trained. If allowed to interact with the world, they tend
to become more sophisticated over time.
• Arcana are loyal to their creator. As an intrinsic quality of being, Arcana will obey both the
letter and spirit (to the best of their understanding) of their creator's instructions. Moreover, they
generally wish to protect and promote the interests of their creator. This is not an invincible
quality, particularly in the case of older, more intelligent and strong-willed Arcana. It is difficult,
but possible, to fray an Arcana's loyalty through protracted abuse.
• The loyalty of Arcana is transferable. An Exalt can gift an Arcana to someone else, declaring
them to be its new master. This individual then inherits the loyalty described in the preceding
quality, although with each transference, it becomes easier and easier for an Arcana's loyalty to
decay.
• Authority over an Arcana can be delegated. An Arcana only attaches its true loyalties to one
master. An Arcana can be told to follow the instructions given to it by someone else, or even a
group of other people (the common example is being told to cooperate with the other members of
a Circle of Exalts), and it will then generally do so. However, the Arcana always evaluates these
instructions against its fundamental loyalty to its primary owner, and may disobey if it suspects it
is being made to work against its owner's interests.

I put that second section in to say the idea that this Arcana is going to attack us again when it already acknowledged it was a mistake to attack Us in the first place is wrong. The idea of a guardian suffering a critical functionality error means it's dying because the guardian only fails when it's dead. It wouldn't have the spear or the ability to use it so effectively if it wasn't meant to guard or otherwise initiate combat. This is a being that made a mistake realized it made a mistake set down its weapon and then started having a stroke. To claim that is an active danger to us when it already stood down is wrong.

OctarineShrike · Jan 17, 2024

[x]null

uju32 · Jan 17, 2024

Yog said:
1) This is not a commonly accepted distinction at all, as far as I am aware. In fact, this is the first time I hear about it, and it seems a) arbitrary, b) counter intuitive to plain language used.

3) Perhaps the word patchwork is not the best to use. Recreation? Imitation? Restoration? Find an old remnant from Age of Legends, almost completely worn away, tey to remake it. House an almost dead spirit in a new body. Stuff like that. So farz we have no evidence that anything but software is from the Age of Legends.

5) We don't have time. It just ran into a critical error. It is crashing in real time.

6) Primary function vs. Function - you are reading to much into this, inventing stuff that isn't there.

1) A construct is essentially a robot.
Its design and sapience are customized to its form factor and arent supposed to be readily transferrable.
An AI is usually depicted as a lot more freeform.

Destroy a construct's body, you destroy the construct; destroy the body of an AI, and you can generally transfer the AI to a different chassis.

3) I know of no evidence where that is possible.

And if it was, you would still see the orichalcum/jade/bullshitium that formed the base material used to make most of the construct. It wouldnt have been wholesale Ship of Theseus'd into a stone and wood statue.
Thats like saying that I can patchwork a steel and aluminium car into wood and plastic and all the original metal would be gone.

5)I dont agree.
Even if that was true, there's no EMT team in the world that would try to treat an armed man who may or may not have altered mental status without getting his permission and persuading him to drop the weapon.

Thats how you get shot, or in our case, stabbed. Again.

6)I disagree.

Degorium said:
We know this Golem is an Arcana because it's speaking old Realm.

Point of order:
Nothing in your citation, or indeed Holden's crafting supplement, says that a Golem has to speak Old Realm.

Degorium said:
I put that second section in to say the idea that this Arcana is going to attack us again when it already acknowledged it was a mistake to attack Us in the first place is wrong. The idea of a guardian suffering a critical functionality error means it's dying because the guardian only fails when it's dead. It wouldn't have the spear or the ability to use it so effectively if it wasn't meant to guard or otherwise initiate combat. This is it being that made a mistake realized it made a mistake set down its weapon and then started having a stroke. To claim that is an active danger to us when it already stood down is wrong.

Nothing in that quote supports any of your claims here.

Degorium · Jan 17, 2024

uju32 said:
That defense rather lost all basis when it prioritized attacking Molly over the person who actually shot it.
Sorry.

Everything in that bolded section is false.

From the claims of competence (it didnt detect the vampire in its own temple, it took the vampire at its word and fell for its ruse, and attacked an invited guest and ally), the claim of Outsiders (we've seen and heard of none in Vegas, and only know of one Outsider cultist) and the claim that its state is our fault(Infernal Akuma existed in the First and Second Age, starting with Thrice-Damned Gorol; if our existence is breaking its mind, its programming was already fucked long before we got here)

We have NO duty of care towards this construct. None. Nobody expects us to have any.
Let alone to risk our lives at its hands in order to fix it after it stabbed us. Especially not at a time when our life is supposed to be important in stopping Sandra's plans for Las Vegas.

Im generally the bleeding heart here, who will go out of their way to propose that we intervene on other people's behalf.
Im the person who is arguing on Lloyd Slate's behalf.
So it should say something when I'm saying thats a bullshit argument.

Its a truism in emergency response that responders need to prioritize their own safety first, else they just create two sets of victims.

I realize now this is why I'm kind of fighting so hard for this. Because this being is actually innocent. It made a mistake stood down and now is having a stroke. The hostilities have already ended it acknowledged it made a mistake Arcana are inherently capable of changing what they are going to do. As long as we do not act against the interest of this clergy in this building it's not going to initiate hostilities against us again. This isn't a emergency response from us we are still perfectly healthy we have one less Health level than the average person right now. Then we're going to rest for 9 hours and then be at Full Health again. I really dislike the idea of this sentient being dying because it made a mistake and had a stroke when we could have done something about it especially considering it is holy relic of the Egyptians.

BoredMan · Jan 18, 2024

Degorium said:
This is a being that made a mistake realized it made a mistake set down its weapon and then started having a stroke. To claim that is an active danger to us when it already stood down is wrong.

Thanks for the info but we don't know what it's programming actually is. Therefore you can't say that it isn't a danger to us anylonger. Nowhere did the text say that it set its weapon down either.

uju32 · Jan 18, 2024

Degorium said:
I realize now this is why I'm kind of fighting so hard for this. Because this being is actually innocent. It made a mistake stood down and now is having a stroke. The hostilities have already ended it acknowledged it made a mistake Arcana are inherently capable of changing what they are going to do. As long as we do not act against the interest of this clergy in this building it's not going to initiate hostilities against us again.

From your own quote:

• Arcana are loyal to their creator. As an intrinsic quality of being, Arcana will obey both the
letter and spirit (to the best of their understanding) of their creator's instructions. Moreover, they
generally wish to protect and promote the interests of their creator. This is not an invincible
quality, particularly in the case of older, more intelligent and strong-willed Arcana. It is difficult,
but possible, to fray an Arcana's loyalty through protracted abuse.

What were its creator's instructions? How does it interpret them? We have no idea.
Will it lie for them? No idea? Cheat for them? No idea. Die for them? No idea.
Pretend to have ceased hostilities? No idea.

Innocence has nothing to do with this. If this is an arcana, there are qualities to keep in mind.

I have limits to how far I think its reasonable for Molly to risk her life.
It has already stabbed us once.
Im not looking to let it get in more.

Degorium said:
This isn't a emergency response from us we are still perfectly healthy we have one less Health level than the average person right now. Then we're going to rest for 9 hours and then be at Full Health again. I really dislike the idea of this sentient being dying because it made a mistake and had a stroke when we could have done something about it especially considering it is holy relic of the Egyptians.

We are not perfectly healthy.
We are at 1/3 health in a city where in the last three or so hours, first a pair of gangsters shot at us with RPGs on the national news and then their boss emptied his handgun at us. And thats not counting Stabby McStabface.

Perfectly healthy? No.

Its not a holy relic of the Egyptians.
You cant simultaneously claim its an arcana, a magic golem made by an Exalt and then claim it as a holy relic of the Egyptians at the same time. You cant have it both ways. Certainly, if it was a holy relic of the Egyptian pantheon, THEY would fix it.

Its a sapient. I have no problem fixing it if we can do so safely.
The key word is safely.
I am not prioritizing its safety over our own again.

Or over that of the rest of Las Vegas for that matter.

Degorium · Jan 18, 2024

BoredMan said:
Thanks for the info but we don't know what it's programming actually is. Therefore you can't say that it isn't a danger to us anylonger. Nowhere did the text say that it set its weapon down either.

you are correct it didn't say it put it's weapon down. Though I do question where the idea it would resume hostilities is coming from. On top of the vouching of the clergy. The helping repair it. The stopping of the black Court vampire. The fact that we came in and talk to it before any of the hostilities started to begin with. Along with the fact that it's a sentient creature capable of learning and made a direct comparison to the unconquered son and us it seems as such that repairing it wouldn't cause hostilities start again.

Also repairing it and then hostility starting again what does that look like because it only scored the damage it did because we weren't defending ourselves from it. With its spear that did aggravated damage with no defense on our part still only did nine damage now that's enough to disintegrate most Mortals don't get it twisted but that's not enough to actually engage in a fight against Molly Carpenter who is defending herself and attacking with Transcendent anathema or using her shintai.

uju32 · Jan 18, 2024

Current tally:

Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 18, 2024 at 12:16 AM, finished with 137 posts and 15 votes.

7 people have voted
[X] Exalted maintenance
-[X] Tell the others that it is subvolalizing in a way human ears can't catch
-[X] Ask someone else to secure the late Cobbler's effects, especially his gun(s), because Crown foci.
-[X] Use your crown on the either Clippy's recording of the statue speaking, or the scene to ask "what are the techniques for restoring / repairing / healing the thing speaking in [Old language]"
--[X] Use Occult or Craft Excellency (whichever is more appropriate) for better comprehension
--[X] Activate All Things Betray for -3DC to Perception rolls: 1wp
-[X] Ask for a staus report speaking its language
--[X] If possible, initiate immediately available repairs
- Yog
- Cavalar
- Vanguard_D
- Degorium
- Anaja
- Nyarky
- Azais
6 people have voted
[X]Plan Talk Like An Egyptian
-[X] Tell the others that it is subvocalizing in a way human ears can't catch
-[X] Activate All Things Betray for -3DC to Perception rolls: 1wp
-[X] Ask for a status report speaking its language; use Occult Excellency and Source Code if necessary(spend Essence to not hurt people), and reactivate Etiquette Excellency if it runs out.
-[X] Ask someone else to secure the late Cobbler's effects, especially his gun(s), because Crown foci.
- uju32
- BoredMan
- Goldfish
- BronzeTongue
- Azais
- TheGrape
1 people have voted
[X] Try to answer back...
-[X] Ask for a status report
- LightLan
1 people have voted
[X] Exalted maintenance
-[X] Tell the others that it is subvolalizing in a way human ears can't catch
-[X] Use your crown on the either Clippy's recording of the statue speaking, or the scene to ask "what are the techniques for restoring / repairing / healing the thing speaking in [Old language]"
--[X] Use Occult or Craft Excellency (whichever is more appropriate) for better comprehension
-[X] Ask for a staus report speaking its language
--[X] If possible, initiate immediately available repairs
- Sesparra
1 people have voted
[X]Plan Androcles and the construct.
-[X] Tell the others that it is subvocalizing in a way human ears can't catch
-[X] Activate All Things Betray for -3DC to Perception rolls: 1wp
-[X] Use your crown on the either Clippy's recording of the statue speaking, or the scene to ask "what are the techniques for restoring / repairing / healing the thing speaking in [Old language]"
--[X] Use Occult or Craft Excellency (whichever is more appropriate) for better comprehension
-[X] Ask for a status report speaking its language; use Occult Excellency and Source Code if necessary(spend Essence to not hurt people), and reactivate Etiquette Excellency if it runs out.
-[X] Ask someone else to secure the late Cobbler's effects, especially his gun(s), because Crown foci.
- Nyarky
1 people have voted
[x]null
- OctarineShrike

Degorium · Jan 18, 2024

uju32 said:
From your own quote:

What were its creator's instructions? How does it interpret them? We have no idea.
Will it lie for them? No idea? Cheat for them? No idea. Die for them? No idea.
Pretend to have ceased hostilities? No idea.

Innocence has nothing to do with this. If this is an arcana, there are qualities to keep in mind.

I have limits to how far I think its reasonable for Molly to risk her life.
It has already stabbed us once.
Im not looking to let it get in more.

We are not perfectly healthy.
We are at 1/3 health in a city where in the last three or so hours, first a pair of gangsters shot at us with RPGs on the national news and then their boss emptied his handgun at us. And thats not counting Stabby McStabface.

Perfectly healthy? No.

Its not a holy relic of the Egyptians.
You cant simultaneously claim its an arcana, a magic golem made by an Exalt and then claim it as a holy relic of the Egyptians at the same time. You cant have it both ways. Certainly, if it was a holy relic of the Egyptian pantheon, THEY would fix it.

Its a sapient. I have no problem fixing it if we can do so safely.
The key word is safely.
I am not prioritizing its safety over our own again.

Or over that of the rest of Las Vegas for that matter.

Considering that it's reference for Sun God is Amun Ra and it directly takes the appearance of Sekhmet a goddess in service of Ra, and Arcana Golem specifically in this case loyalty can be transferred I literally can claim that. Also something being a religious artifact has nothing to do with it actually being from the theology or from the region look at any abrahamic artifacts and you'll be able to tell that it's more to do with the general age and proximity to the mythology that has to do with whether it's a holy thing. This Golem has considerably more credibility as a holy Relic then 90% of Christian relics do. If for no other reason then it's Advanced age and actually taking on the appearance of a god.

In the end I think the argument that it's actually a risk to our safety when we can fight back is valid but very different than it being the default. Two we've let genuinely evil creatures go from our presence that have directly threatened our lives and their lives of people we care about, so letting this creature who was as far as I'm capable of telling doing its job die is actually not going to fly with me. Three it has interesting lore that I want to actually know and for that it needs to be alive. It's approaching Unity for odds of losing data and primary function loss there is no way we're getting a actual full diagnostic out of this thing without it crashing completely before then.

Artemis1992 · Jan 18, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
I was expecting it to be bad, it's just that killing Nate in one round was more important. I'm surprised by how far it went though; with the stunt bonus we'd still have been rolling 6 dice at dc 5.

I don't think stunts get added to Soak, that's a passive thing that isn't affected by stunts (or wound-penalties, or eligible for spending WP).

BronzeTongue said:
The more I look at that the more confusing it gets. Throwing 15 manipulation+occult at what is essentially a novel soul destroying effect, which themselves are almost unheard of in the DF, that caught you completely by surprise at presuming significant range is a lot.

A god looking to counterspell an effect he'd seen before at point blank range used arete equivalent and was old enough to potentially know a bit about old school essence manipulation aside. Despite being called out as no slouch at this stuff himself.

If I had to make a less complicated guess than uju, I'd say it's the difference between passive and active effects.

Emma-O relied on his Akumas returning to him, because that is the nature of their contract.

Meanwhile the elder vampire used an active Necromantic spell to summon Nate's ghost to him the instant he died, and so he gave Nate a chance to slip away (that barely failed).
He didn't so much contest our power directly with Counterspelling, as he tried to lasso his minion out from under the falling sword.

A matter of skill and timing, not divine authority. And Exalted auto-succede against the latter because that is their basic function, but not against the former.

As for Nate having an OP true Methuselah as his backer, well he was a graverobber/archeologist in life. Might have found something older than most of the currently active Blampires.

uju32 said:
Its made of limestone, marble and cedar wood and carries a spear made of electrum, materials available to Pharaonic-era Egypt. Most definitely not the kind of things that Solars built their magic robots out of.

If I have to guess, this is post-Age of Legends manufacture and we're looking at an old Arcana.

Keep in mind that the golden sundisc is the primary source of everything that has manifested so far.
Might be that some enterprising wizards, old Egyptian probably, build a new body for a much older AI-core here.

BoredMan · Jan 18, 2024

Degorium said:
you are correct it didn't say it put it's weapon down. Though I do question where the idea it would resume hostilities is coming from. On top of the vouching of the clergy. The helping repair it. The stopping of the black Court vampire. The fact that we came in and talk to it before any of the hostilities started to begin with. Along with the fact that it's a sentient creature capable of learning and made a direct comparison to the unconquered son and us it seems as such that repairing it wouldn't cause hostilities start again.

We don't know how much of it's actions are predetermined based on algorithms it has to follow and how sapient and free thinking it actually is. The fact that we came in and talked to it before hostilities began when it was shot at by Cobbler, only for it to backstab us while defending it is a mark against it.

I never said it would resume hostilities, stop putting words in my mouth. As I already said I have no idea what it'll do. Neither do you. That's the problem, which is why you verify before helping the guy who just brought your health down to one third and made you waste your guaranteed activation of a boss killing power to fucking heal.

Degorium said:
we've let genuinely evil creatures go from our presence that have directly threatened our lives and their lives of people we care about, so letting this creature who was as far as I'm capable of telling doing its job die is actually not going to fly with me.

Not because we wanted to nor did letting them go put us at more risk in the moment. That's not even relevant here we are arguing if we should verify it's motives and status before acting after just getting stabbed. How is this even an argument? Your projecting innocence onto this thing when we don't know at present but have more than enough reason to be wary.

Degorium said:
Three it has interesting lore that I want to actually know and for that it needs to be alive. It's approaching Unity for odds of losing data and primary function loss there is no way we're getting a actual diagnostic out of this thing without it crashing completely before then.

Lore is not a higher priority than Molly or her party's safety. Once again pure speculation here.

Degorium · Jan 18, 2024

BoredMan said:
We don't know how much of it's actions are predetermined based on algorithms it has to follow and how sapient and free thinking it actually is. The fact that we came in and talked to it before hostilities began when it was shot at by Cobbler, only for it to backstab us while defending it is a mark against it.

I never said it would resume hostilities, stop putting words in my mouth. As I already said I have no idea what it'll do. Neither do you. That's the problem, which is why you verify before helping the guy who just brought your health down to one third and made you waste your guaranteed activation of a boss killing power to fucking heal.

Not because we wanted to nor did letting them go put us at more risk in the moment. That's not even relevant here we are arguing if we should verify it's motives and status before acting after just getting stabbed. How is this even an argument? Your projecting innocence onto this thing when we don't know at present but have more than enough reason to be wary.

Lore is not a higher priority than Molly or her party's safety. Once again pure speculation here.

Wait are you saying you want to pop a shintai just to heal. When we could just use it Ego - Infused Pattern Primacy to heal in 9 hours that's at full by the way. Just healing our wound penalty would put us at 1 hour. Yeah okay if you put it that way I get why it'd be a thing.

But we still haven't slept in this entire time in Vegas our Essence pool is a little bit over half at this point and well generally the other humans and maybe Tiffany in our party also need to sleep at some point. Okay putting this on paper we got here when the sun was in the sky high it wasn't like going on Sunset or anything like that. So we've been up for anywhere from 14 to 18 hours now with a high estimation of possibly 20 if we left when it was early in Chicago.

In general I don't think it's a risk most because at this point fighting in this robot would be a not single-sided fight but it would be a wizard two exalts and a demon versus a single Golem. This assumes that we're going to fight to begin with which isn't guaranteed.

Also when I was writing this out if you want to use shintai to heal shouldn't you vote for the one that has the highest likelihood of actually getting into combat. Not that I believe that it's going to happen but shouldn't you try to angle for that if you don't want to try to wait the 9 hours to heal to full or the two or three to get back up to well into our zero levels. No one is going to vote to use shintai just to heal. It may be the first thing in use in the next fight but it won't be just to heal right now that's not happening.

Yog · Jan 18, 2024

uju32 said:
From your own quote:

Loyal at the moment of creation =/= blindly obedient for all eternity and beyond.

And, again, your vote does not address the arguments you are making. If you think that it might have malicious coding, and relying on it apologizing is too dangerous then talking to it is useless - it can lie, and as a statue midstroke, it won't have tells that can be read.

If you are relying on it to tell the truth about its status, then you are inherently trusting it. You can't have it both ways. You either trust it, or not. If you trust it, then use the crown to affect repairs, there's no point in delaying. If not, then ise the crown to study its programming, there's no point of questioning it, as you cannot trust what it says.

uju32 said:
1) A construct is essentially a robot.
Its design and sapience are customized to its form factor and arent supposed to be readily transferrable.
An AI is usually depicted as a lot more freeform.

Destroy a construct's body, you destroy the construct; destroy the body of an AI, and you can generally transfer the AI to a different chassis.

As I said, that's definitely not standard terminology I previously encountered anywhere. To me, artificial intelligence is exactly that - an intelligence that is artificial, whatever the substrate is.

uju32 said:
3) I know of no evidence where that is possible.

And if it was, you would still see the orichalcum/jade/bullshitium that formed the base material used to make most of the construct. It wouldnt have been wholesale Ship of Theseus'd into a stone and wood statue.
Thats like saying that I can patchwork a steel and aluminium car into wood and plastic and all the original metal would be gone.

But you can? Ship of theseus a car, that is? Why not? And I don't see why this wouldn't be possible for this thing either.

BoredMan · Jan 18, 2024

Degorium said:
Snip

I don't recall that we can use Ego to heal agg damage. Nevermind the Shintai then if that is the case.

Anaja · Jan 18, 2024

Sesparra, did you mean to be voting with the other Exalted Maintenance votes? You are being counted separately in that tally.

Artemis1992 · Jan 18, 2024

[X]Plan Talk Like An Egyptian

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

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Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.