Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Ok then. Let's modify the plan then.
See above.

Just have Harry and the rest drive away like law-abiding citizens while Molly activates Anonymity Through Propriety, beats the attackers unconscious, binds them with their own belts and handkerchiefs, then takes off to around 60-100 metres above ground level while MHMing the prisoners behind her.

No need to do anything else. No need to risk putting them in a car trunk where cops might find them, or they could choke.
Molly can just pace the car all the way to their destination; as long as she's significantly above streetlight level at night, most people wont even notice there's something in the air.
 
See above.

Just have Harry and the rest drive away like law-abiding citizens while Molly activates Anonymity Through Propriety, beats the attackers unconscious, binds them with their own belts and handkerchiefs, then takes off to around 60-100 metres above ground level while MHMing the prisoners behind her.

No need to do anything else. No need to risk putting them in a car trunk where cops might find them, or they could choke.
Molly can just pace the car all the way to their destination; as long as she's significantly above streetlight level at night, most people wont even notice there's something in the air.
That doesn't work. The cops are coming, and the car is on video. Plus, as you yourself pointed out, they likely tracked us using it. So, I changed my vote to fly away instead.
 
That doesn't work. The cops are coming, and the car is on video. Plus, as you yourself pointed out, they likely tracked us using it. So, I changed my vote to fly away instead.
Average national response time for a level one emergency is six minutes
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Las Vegas actually had wait times of up to 3 minutes before 911 operators even answer your phone call as of 2022.
Unless there was a literal cop on the scene that saw the engagement, we'll be gone before the cops show up

The car is on video, the license plate is not.
And the Dodge Intrepid is a fairly nondescript sedan thats operated in the hundreds of thousands in the US, and has been produced since 1993; cops and government agencies drive them in this time period, as well as rental car companies.

The people who set up the ambush can track the car, but since we'll be looking for them soon, no additional harm done.
We can decide if we want to HMP the car later.
 
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See, this is where we could use a Charm for our own boss-music.

Having a good piece as background while we ascend to the skies and cast Sandra in glowing green chains forged from our pure will would make this look so much like a movie or cutscene that cognitive dissonance will prevent any masquerade-breaches.
 
I can't recall how skillfull Harry is with veils, can he do so on a moving car, and without messing the car up?
I dont remember him ever veiling a moving car.
Plus, there's the additional issue of other traffic on the road, who will run into you if they cant see you.
See, this is where we could use a Charm for our own boss-music.
Having a good piece as background while we ascend to the skies and cast Sandra in glowing green chains forged from our pure will would make this look so much like a movie or cutscene that cognitive dissonance will prevent any masquerade-breaches.
Unfortunately, all we have is that our armor starts chanting not-Latin whenever we activate it.
Which is cool, dont get me wrong, but it would be nice to be able to vary the theme.
 
Actually, we are six people already, and now two hostages / captives. Where are we putting them all? There's not enough space in the car.
The car is on video, the license plate is not.
That's a big huge ass assumption + want to bet Sandra or someone else associated with her in the crowd will tell the cops the license plate? If they are tracking us through the car, they have the license plate, and tying us down in dodging cops is a smart move if they are moving to active phase of their operation.
 
Actually, we are six people already, and now two hostages / captives. Where are we putting them all? There's not enough space in the car.
Molly has them grappled with MHM and is flying above the car.
She stays around 30m - 60m above ground level, she's essentially invisible from the ground at night.

That's a big huge ass assumption + want to bet Sandra or someone else associated with her in the crowd will tell the cops the license plate? If they are tracking us through the car, they have the license plate, and tying us down in dodging cops is a smart move if they are moving to active phase of their operation.
1) Not especially.
Remember, this is night. Reduced visibility.
Even in dayime, catching the license plate of vehicles can be iffy; you need to be at precisely the right angle.

2)And? Whats her report?
That we were attacked and ran away from the attackers is not a crime.
If they want us harassed, they can also provide a description of us to the cops with or without the car.

I wouldnt worry about it.
 
2)And? Whats her report?
That we were attacked and ran away from the attackers is not a crime.
If they want us harassed, they can also provide a description of us to the cops with or without the car.

I wouldnt worry about it.
That they kidnapped two people after being in a shootout. For example.
 
That they kidnapped two people after being in a shootout. For example.
You have a wildly optimistic view of US police efficiency.

First: Wild claim, no evidence.
Second: Molly is going to do it under ATP. Any footage of the incident will see the occupants reenter their car and leave the scene with no captives, while Molly walks into an alleyway and doesnt come out.

Not to mention that the alleged victims would be the losing criminals in a gunfight, and the Las Vegas PD is not exactly going to be particularly interested in their welfare.


People have tried this stuff in Dresden Files canon.

In Proven Guilty, Ace attempted to kill Dresden by ramming his Beetle with a much bigger vehicle, then fled the scene.
Noone ever caught him. In Small Favor, a couple hitmen tried to kill Dresden and Murphy by ramming them with a car and then shooting them up with shotguns and automatics.

Dresden put a .44 bullet in the knee of one guy, Mouse savaged the guys leg, and the other guy took friendly fire in the ass.
Dresden left them both at the scene and drove away as police sirens approached.
Nothing came of it.

If the cops dont find you on the scene of a crime, followup takes its time.
 
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First: Wild claim, no evidence.
Depends on who's calling who. And the situation. The police will know about the shootout, and the kidnapping of the shooters will also be noticed, I think. This is a major event right here, with military grade equipment.
Second: Molly is going to do it under ATP. Any footage of the incident will see the occupants reenter their car and leave the scene, while Molly walks into an alleyway and doesnt come out.
ATP is scene long, it should affect recordings. Also, ATP affects our allies too.
Not to mention that the alleged victims would be the losing criminals in a gunfight, and the Las Vegas PD is not exactly going to be particularly interested.
That's... a very wild claim. "Just let them fight each other" is not a paradigm I understood USA law enforcement to work under where it comes to gang warfare
People have tried this stuff in Dresden Files canon.

In Proven Guilty, Ace attempted to kill Dresden by ramming his Beetle with a much bigger vehicle, then fled the scene.
Noone ever caught him. In Small Favor, a couple hitmen tried to kill Dresden and Murphy by ramming them with a car and then shooting them up with shotguns and automatics.

Dresden put a .44 bullet in the knee of one guy, Mouse savaged the guys leg, and the other guy took friendly fire in the ass.
Dresden left them both at the scene and drove away as police sirens approached.
Nothing came of it.

If the cops dont find you on the scene of a crime, followup takes its time.
Dresden was taken into custody in this quest, with shakier evidence of his involvement in a crime.
 
Depends on who's calling who. And the situation. The police will know about the shootout, and the kidnapping of the shooters will also be noticed, I think. This is a major event right here, with military grade equipment.
Look, if the bad guys want to try to use law enforcement against us, they'll frame us.
They dont have any reason to wait for actual evidence, they'll just make shit up.
Otherwise, they wont bother.

ATP is scene long, it should affect recordings. Also, ATP affects our allies too.
ATP doesnt affect recordings, just witnesses.
It doesnt affect people with mental defenses against that sort of thing, or with sufficient Willpower.
Which mean Lydia and Lash are both protected, and Harry might beat it with sheer willpower.

That's... a very wild claim. "Just let them fight each other" is not a paradigm I understood USA law enforcement to work under where it comes to gang warfare
.....

To pick a high profile Las Vegas event, international bestselling musician and gang-affiliated gangster rapper Tupac Shakur was murdered in Las Vegas 1996 at a stop light by a gang shooter, Orlando Anderson of the Southside Compton Crips.
Cadillac pulls up to his BMW, and the gunman empties a magazine into it.

An investigative journalist essentially wrote a book on everyone involved in 2002.
The Las Vegas PD only got around to arresting someone over it in 2023. Despite the people who were involved being essentially public knowledge, and one of them going on Youtube interviews describing the events.

Local cops arent exactly going to ignore ongoing wars.
But they arent famed for trying to solve crimes involving people they consider to be gang-affiliated. Especially given Las Vegas and its history of people being buried in the desert or dumped into Lake Mead in concrete barrels.

The Feds are generally much more persistent if you get their attention.

Still, US crime rates have only half of murders being solved nationally, with places like Chicago being as low as a third, and other crimes having even lower clearance rates.
 
Look, if the bad guys want to try to use law enforcement against us, they'll frame us.
They dont have any reason to wait for actual evidence, they'll just make shit up.
Otherwise, they wont bother.
Why do they need to expedite resources to make something up, when a perfect opportunity is right here, and their operations are entering a time-critical stage?
ATP doesnt affect recordings, just witnesses.
It doesnt affect people with mental defenses against that sort of thing, or with sufficient Willpower.
Which mean Lydia and Lash are both protected, and Harry might beat it with sheer willpower.
Mental defenses weren't mentioned in the rules, and we successfully affected MIchael.
 
ATP is scene long, it should affect recordings. Also, ATP affects our allies too.
Technically cameras don't have a willpower score, but I think you need to be capable of paying attention to something for the charm to devour it.

As to allies that seems hazy. Not sure how DP will rule, but my read is that it's stopping attention from being focused on Molly, which only extends to her actions to a limited extent. I've been thinking of it as connected to how obviously she's involved, because that's what differentiates attention being directed at her versus something else.

On one end of the spectrum you have Molly walking in and stealing a candy bar from a store. The people around her shouldn't see a floating candy bar, they should ignore what she's doing entirely.

On the other you have Molly setting up a sniper nest and blowing someone's head off from a half mile away. I'd argue that even in plain sight no one should notice her or associate what she's up to with the shooting, but the people covered in brain chunks should be allowed to notice the victim and react without contesting the charm.

In the middle you have stuff like beating someone in the street. The victim obviously notices for free, but they can't notice the beating without noticing Molly so that should need a save.

Supposing DP follows a similar line of reasoning covering our allies would require Molly being so intrinsically involved in whatever they're doing you couldn't notice one without the other if you tried. Playing catch wouldn't work because you could notice the other person just standing around but miss what they're doing. Frenching them on the other hand, would require quite a bit of overlooking.
or with sufficient Willpower.
Which mean Lydia and Lash are both protected, and Harry might beat it with sheer willpower.
Not quite by my read:
System: Spend 1 Essence and roll Charisma + Etiquette against difficulty 4. Anyone whose Willpower rating is equal to or lower than the resulting successes cannot notice or acknowledge the Infernal unless she directly interacts or interferes with them. If she's taking some indirect action that would distress a character were he to acknowledge it (such as reading his diary or murdering his spouse), and that character has Willpower 5+, they can spend a point of Willpower and make a Willpower roll against difficulty 7 to attempt to acknowledge and confront the Infernal. This Charm lasts for one scene
It measures against permanent willpower and doesn't allow a roll until an interaction condition is met, so most merits and buffs don't apply.

Even then if you don't have hero willpower you're not even allowed to spend a temp point to buy a roll, which people don't like to do anyway.

With our rolls even superhumanly strong willed people would have to wait for us to do something unless they have a perfect defense. Unfortunately for them they also need to know to turn it on even if it's reflexive.
"Rísa Skuggar!" he shouts, blood and spittle flying from his mouth as they infect the shadows all around and fill them with his will. The darkness comes boiling to embrace him. In the moment of darkness that follows the last beserker slashes at you wit claws and inhuman strength. You can hear his own bones breaking even as he slashes your cheek open.

You take 1 Wound (-1 to all rolls)

When the world returns the sorcerer is gone, carried off on wings of shadow. It's almost hard to remember he had been here at all. Wait... you do not need Usum to tell you, he's messing with your head. Essence flares in utter denial of that which would impinge on the sanctity of your own mind and the shadows become just shadows again. There, you see the old man getting out of the van still in his bloodied suit, but not even hurrying, so sure that his dirty trick had worked.

Gorfel shot Molly then ran away right before our eyes while we were in the middle of beating him like a drum and he was one uncontested success from making her forget to use her perfect.

We've had to plan around the knowing to act problem (primarily with UMI/social attacks, but fundamentally the same problem) in every arc since then - sometimes in very tight resource budgets. It's nice to be on the other side of that for once.

Most people don't have anything nearly as good as a celestial tier reflexive and all encompassing mental defense, so they have more practical problems with this than we do.

Edit: error
 
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Why do they need to expedite resources to make something up, when a perfect opportunity is right here, and their operations are entering a time-critical stage?
Because you want a urgent response.

Like I've pointed out, the Las Vegas police have an actual record for ignoring high profile cases for two decades.
And even normal mundane police cases by diligent detectives can take months to build.
Police work is not like TV.

If you arent caught in flagrante delicto, and the cops dont have evidence that you are about to commit a crime, the police are going to need to do investigative work, build a case, take it to a judge or grand jury and get an indictment.
They cant just pull you off the street and into a cell, at least not legally.

And certainly not if you are someone with the money or pull to make a fuss about legality.
Las Vegas, for all its issues, does not have the law enforcement issues of the backwaters of the Deep South, and a party of mostly sympathetic white-presenting wealthy women are a horrible legal target for any prosecutor or DA.


Mental defenses weren't mentioned in the rules, and we successfully affected MIchael.
Michael doesnt have innate perfect defenses.
At least two people here do.
Not quite by my read:
One: By the text of the charm, Molly interacting with them voids the Charm's effects on them.
If she tells them to wait for her a couple blocks away, by the text and apparent intent of the charm, they will remember.

Two: At least two members of our party have UMI defences against this sort of fuckery.
Lydia is an Exalt, has Willpower 10, and has both Thoughts of Oak and Righteous Lion Defense.
Thoughts of Oak Defense (••)
The Exigent solidifies her desire and duty, pushing away any externally-imposed thoughts or feelings.
System: Reflexively spend 1 Essence to utterly reject all thought and emotion-altering magic from a specific character or source for the rest of the scene.

Righteous Lion Defense (•)
The Exigent feels the call of duty and family in her Essence and will not be swayed from her path.
System: Any attempt to cause or force the Exigent to betray, undermine, or abandon her Intimacies automatically fails
Lash is a Demon, has Willpower 8, and has Resistance to Illusion as part of her innate powers.
Demonic Powers
Immunity to Mind Control and Possession
Resistance to Illusion: Demons can always roll Perception+Awareness (Dif 7) if in the presence of any illusions or supernatural concealment. If the roll is successful they see through the artifice.
Resistance to Lethal Damage: The demon can soak lethal damage while in the Apocalyptical Form
Healing: Spend one Faith point to heal either one level of Lethal Damage or all Bashing Damage, this takes a turn of full concentration without other actions
Supernatural Awareness: The demon can always roll Perception+Awareness (Dif 7) to notice the spritual feeling of a place and to notice nearby magical effects, demonic power etc. Weaker than the Sight, but constant
I expect both of them to see through it, especially if Molly tells them she's about to do it.

Harry is a Mage, has Willpower 8, plus either an Intimacy or a Merit that occasionally raises his effective Willpower to 11 and the mental defences to survive Sighting a naagloshii.
So similar chances.

Our party is largely made up of the occult one percenters of this setting.
Stuff other people dont even get a roll for, they will.
 
Note that this was a hit where two rocket propelled grenades were used on the street. This is going to produce an absolutely enormous police response. There'll probably be helicopters overhead very soon.
 
One: By the text of the charm, Molly interacting with them voids the Charm's effects on them.
If she tells them to wait for her a couple blocks away, by the text and apparent intent of the charm, they will remember.

Two: At least two members of our party have UMI defences against this sort of fuckery.
Lydia is an Exalt, has Willpower 10, and has both Thoughts of Oak and Righteous Lion Defense
My point wasn't that they couldn't, just that defeating it isn't trivial. Exalted passives only activate for something trying to change your mind about your intimacies, which is irrelevant to this charm in 99% of cases. Poking one will probably still provoke a roll, but the defense won't matter.

The active one has to be activated, which runs into the other issue if you're being hunted.

Resistance to illusions isn't relevant because it isn't an illusion. She isn't changing or concealing anything, she's just interfering with your ability to remember stuff. Your perception is perfectly clear, it just doesn't matter to you.

On Harry; you don't get intimacy or merit buffs to willpower per RaW until you get to a roll. It measures your permanent willpower dots, not your adjusted value, and you aren't rolling anything so generic buffs like WHWH don't apply either.

That's a key part of what makes it useful. Even people who will definitely make the roll with ease don't get one until that point, and they basically need to be actively defending themselves against it before they know they need it to get around the first drop.

Our party is largely made up of the occult one percenters of this setting.
Stuff other people dont even get a roll for, they will.
Molly had a perfect defense and 5 occult dots, still was one success away from eating a memory altering effect of precisely this type. It wouldn't have even been a legendary total.

We can work it around to the point that unless you have 14 permanent unmodified willpower dots on your char sheet your options are to

1) suck up the first hit

2) periodically turn on whatever defense you've got and check if the ceiling infernals are watching you.

This sort of bullshit is the give end of the give and take with the weird requirements and limitations of infernal charms. Like how we have a single perfect attack option that can't benefit from excellency or our combat skills, unlike every other celestial, but it also can't be soaked either.

Edit: clarification

Edit2:

Note that this was a hit where two rocket propelled grenades were used on the street. This is going to produce an absolutely enormous police response. There'll probably be helicopters overhead very soon.
Did they actually go off? Parrying them without taking damage implies that we somehow cut them up without detonation, since they'd otherwise shower us with shrapnel anyway.

What I'm curious about is why they have this set up.

A fast reaction squad armed with RPGs that you can drop on someone at an arbitrary location in a major city by tracking the GPS in their rental car isn't something you throw together in an afternoon.

Clearly this is a trap for us because of Sandra, but was all of this implemented for Molly or did the local mob actually invest in this ability prior to all this?
 
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Votes are all over the place.
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Jan 11, 2024 at 4:53 AM, finished with 84 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Shaken Not Stirred
    -[X] Have Harry et al get back into the car and drive down three blocks or so, where you'll meet them
    -[X] Capture the attackers and their RPGs
    --[X] Activate ATP + Mind-Hand Manipulation: 2m
    --[X] Choke/bash unconscious and restrain the hitters with additional bonds
    --[X] Disarm of firearms. Grab wallets, phones and any paperwork, and have Clippy get pictures of the perps and run Internet searches
    --[X] If they have a car nearby, loot it of anything of interest
    --[X] Grab the RPG launchers as well, then fly to meet the rest of the party with your prisoners
    -[X]Continue to the Hanging Gardens to drop off Mayeda and ask Arlene some additional questions
    -[X]Call the Spring Reserve with a warning about Blampire interest
    [X] Plan Industrial Light and Magic v.2
    -[X] Capture the pair with the RPGs
    --[X] Tiffany uses Lore of light to blind them with a flash of light
    --[X] Activate MInd Hand Manipulation.
    ---[X] Use it to divest the shooters of their weapons, and then grapple them and bring it and them to you, where you and Lydia can bind them and knock them out
    -[X] Harry veils everyone, car included
    --[X] fly away - first up, then where you need to go, once you are out of sight
    [X] Go after Sandra somehow
    -[x]Fly up grab her with MHM and take everyone into our kingdom.
    [X] Plan Industrial Light and Magic
    -[X] Capture the pair with the RPGs
    --[X] Tiffany uses Lore of light to blind them with a flash of light
    --[X] Windborn Stride, pay 1 essence for 10X instant speed amplification
    --[X] Slice their weapons with your sword, then use the flat of the blade to bash them.
    -[X] Harry veils everyone
    -[X] Lydia Opens the Way, and take everyone, van included, into NeverNever to escape from the cops
    [X] Get out of here before the cops show up and start asking questions you would rather not answer
    -[X] Put a building between them and the car ASAP, or get out of effective range ASAP. Molly might be able to tank that, but not anyone else (depending on how Armor Penetration capability in an attack interacts with Armor/Soak)
    -[X] Have someone watching them to warn if they launch again (and potentially how to maneuver to evade)
    [X] Get out of here before the cops show up and start asking questions you would rather not answer
    -[X] Crown question with the RPG goons as focus: What are their employers (Sandra's) plans here?
    [X] Plan Beatum up and Drive away
    -[X] Capture the pair with the RPGs
    --[X] Mind Hand Manipulation grapple pull them towards us.
    --[X] Have Harry shot force punches at the while we hit in grapple.
    -[X] Repair the car with tool-Transcending Construct
    --[X] Throw the incapacitated in the trunk.
 
That plan doesn't work a veiled car on the street gets into accidents since other drivers can't see you and thats assuming Harry can even do that to a moving car without breaking it with his magic in the first place.
I think the plan relies on Harry pinning the veil to the car because we'll be moving it with mind hand manipulation flying it to wherever we're going rather than Harry trying to Veil a driving vehicle on a road.
 
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