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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Artemis1992 said:
Killing or freeing what is left of the Red's juiceboxes is still a valid option and removes their offer.
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True, but I don't think we'll be able to get at those until the red court is in the process of falling. Their prison is almost certainly one of the most well guarded places in their domain.

Maybe we could cause them enough internal chaos that they don't have the ability to maintain negotiations?

It's mentioned repeatedly in the books that the council is absurdly good with finances. Compounding interest plays a role, but they're so good at it that it's a favored weapon for attacking other long lived supernatural powers.

I bet it'd do fun things to their logistical situation if the white council gained access to a full map of their holdings and the credentials to mess with them.

How'd we get them? Cyber devils in Ortega's stuff. Why'd she have access to it? Dunno, plotting against her dad or something. She's not exactly going to drop by to defend herself.

Leak it to McCoy and he'll at least see it used even if he's suspicious.
 
Huh, you know it would take trusting her, which a big ask right now but theoretically possible, but I imagine Tiffany could make a killing using the Lore of Flesh on people wanting to reach peak human specs (Molly, Lydia, probably every Warden given the current war).

She just needs to build trust with the potential clients first, which is the biggest but also only hurdle. We should definitely trade a Faith reservoir for an Attributes boost.

Edit: The 3-dot power can even increase Mental Attributes, which is kind of insane. Who knew the quickest route to peerless power was by making a deal with a demon? :V
 
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BronzeTongue said:
The jades aren't stupid; if the red court is going to offer them god blood we'd need to match it to gain their cooperation. I'm not sure it's a good plan to empower them to that degree.

There's also the issue of Molly looking like a Yama Queen of some type. She isn't, but signs indicating she is are very obvious to the trained eye and the ones contradicting very subtle. Piercing the exaltation's cosplay isn't a trivial task.

The jades accuse people of being Akuma for a lot less than trading with someone like us, and making it stick is a good way to screw someone you don't like. The rivals of the first elder we talk to are going to tar and feather them.

I'd rather just assassinate the red diplomats.
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Seems like it could and probably will get messy but your right Molly and the Five Courts need experience to help with branching out later.

Also the RedCourt have their hands in so many pies that its starting to piss me off. Hopefully we can fully or at least mostly deal with them this year before they cause too many problems with that reach of their's on the way down.

[X] Yes, let what shih might wish to come do so, the more prepared all of you shall be for what's to come
 
Hey @DragonParadox is ATP super politeness a social check? It is Charisma + Etiquette and that has implications for Demonic Primary of Essence so Molly can in fact just walk into Mordor. Like she owns the place.
 
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BoredMan said:
Also the votes got fucked up @DragonParadox. Only the new ones are showing.
Adhoc vote count started by BoredMan on Dec 21, 2023 at 6:42 PM, finished with 10 posts and 4 votes.
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Just gotta tell the tally to look back past the latest interlude.
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Dec 21, 2023 at 6:46 PM, finished with 38 posts and 11 votes.
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BronzeTongue said:
The jades aren't stupid; if the red court is going to offer them god blood we'd need to match it to gain their cooperation. I'm not sure it's a good plan to empower them to that degree.

There's also the issue of Molly looking like a Yama Queen of some type. She isn't, but signs indicating she is are very obvious to the trained eye and the ones contradicting very subtle. Piercing the exaltation's cosplay isn't a trivial task.

The jades accuse people of being Akuma for a lot less than trading with someone like us, and making it stick is a good way to screw someone you don't like. The rivals of the first elder we talk to are going to tar and feather them.

I'd rather just assassinate the red diplomats.
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Wan Kuei Ancestors have diplomatic relations and exchange ambassadors with the Yama Kings. Their Arhats trade knowledge and favours with them. Some Yama Kings are even ascended Wan Kuei Bodhisattva.

Being the slave of a Yama King is an offence worthy of execution for any Wan Kuei. Negotiating with them is only forbidden for younger Wan Kuei who lack the spiritual refinement and power to do so without being tempted to fall.

And we have things we can offer that should be as good as god blood. For example, we can try to break Yi's Curse on individuals. We can also very likely use our Crown to learn and so teach Dharmic insights which are absolutely invaluable for elder Wan Kuei.

And the Bone Flowers, obsessive gatherers of knowledge and secrets would have a lot they'd like to trade with us.

We'd want to vet the Elders we'd trade with, but many of their real elders want to preserve the world and are no worse than the Fey. Selectively empowering the more useful ones would be a service to the world and would give us significant influence over them.

Also, elder Wan Kuei, particularly those who were once Wan Xian are likely to recognise that Molly isn't a Yama King.
 
Alratan said:
Wan Kuei Ancestors have diplomatic relations and exchange ambassadors with the Yama Kings. Their Arhats trade knowledge and favours with them. Some Yama Kings are even ascended Wan Kuei Bodhisattva.

Being the slave of a Yama King is an offence worthy of execution for any Wan Kuei. Negotiating with them is only forbidden for younger Wan Kuei who lack the spiritual refinement and power to do so without being tempted to fall.
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Really? Cause this is was ExWoD says on them:
The Hungry Dead and Infernals
There's no ambiguity to be found here, at least: the Infernal Exalted name themselves Demon Princes, and while they are enemies of the Yama Kings, it is only because they wish to seize the Yama Kings' thrones for themselves. They are exactly the sort of rampant, un- sanctioned devils the Wan Xian were empowered to bat- tle, and if they are not opposed, they will usher in the Sixth Age and then rule over it with no consideration for anything but themselves. Anyone who would work with such a villain is clearly conspiring with the forces of Yomi Wan, and stands to be condemned by the courts.
Or at least, there shouldn't be any ambiguity. Is it not the right of a supernatural inheritor of the powers of Hell to reinvent herself as a celestial devil? the young Devil-Ti- gers may ask, to the revulsion of their elders. Are they not perfectly adapted to the world that is being born around us, day by day? the Scorpion-Eaters muse as they explore the remains of the Fukushima Daiishi reactor. Is it en- lightened to face the future and close one's eyes?
The Wheel turns on toward darkness, and no an- swer is as simple as it should be.
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That is, some young ones might whisper heresy, but the elders and their ideology in general doesn't support dealing with the hells in the way you describe - in an open way at least.



Alratan said:
We'd want to vet the Elders we'd trade with, but many of their real elders want to preserve the world and are no worse than the Fey. Selectively empowering the more useful ones would be a service to the world and would give us significant influence over them.

Also, elder Wan Kuei, particularly those who were once Wan Xian are likely to recognise that Molly isn't a Yama King.
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This I'm skeptical of. One because even their best philosophies are self serving and they aren't necessary monsters.

I also doubt their ability to tell the difference to any greater degree than other similarly old entities. You chronically over hype the jades based on lore that doesn't fit this setting and some of the worst system writing White Wolf has ever done. They have more experience with the hells, but no particular reason to see why an infernal isn't just a weird new member of their number.
 
[X] No, advise that he be more prudent. For all the world is moving swiftly too much haste can still make one stumble
 
[X] Yes, let what shih might wish to come do so, the more prepared all of you shall be for what's to come
 
I am fully in favour of subverting the jade courts. Imagine having access to a hit squad of arhats or even ancestors.

Remember our book alone is worth an army to them. So i think our knowldge maybe be more important than god blood to them, after all they are philosophiers first of all.
 
Acolyte said:
I am fully in favour of subverting the jade courts. Imagine having access to a hit squad of arhats or even ancestors.

Remember our book alone is worth an army to them. So i think our knowldge maybe be more important than god blood to them, after all they are philosophiers first of all.
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The problem is what they'll do with that knowledge.

The white council will pull the book out to deal with the hells making trouble for them, but Jades are liable to try exploiting it or leaking it to someone who will.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The problem is what they'll do with that knowledge.

The white council will pull the book out to deal with the hells making trouble for them, but Jades are liable to try exploiting it or leaking it to someone who will.
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In fairness I feel their well definitely corrupt but less corrupt than in standard world of darkness given their now far more insular. Which you know is a good sign cause plenty of kuei jin in world of darkness as I know them want to basically expand across the world and claim dominion over plenty of groups and such.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The problem is what they'll do with that knowledge.
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They will do what we tell them to do.

We should take control of them, as a great teacher. After beating a few arhats and then helping some vampires trancend their conditions.

We are the perfect person to solve their condition and that is every vampires ultimate goal. There is a reasons arhats don't do much temporal stuff.

And it wouldn't even be unethical because we can make jade talisman to feed them and they won't even need to eat people.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I'm not so sure on this one.

I get the point he's making, and I wouldn't want to create a situation where people feel pressured to turn into something they don't want to be, but solely working through one aspect of the community doesn't eliminate the hypothetical pressures involved. It just takes away a potentially hazardous relief valve.

If the turning of turbulence of the wheel turning is enough that some Shih would seriously consider becoming helltech cyborgs or the like what means will they seek in the world at large if that's not an option? Not that I'm saying we should send them Arasaka's summer cyberarm catalog, but some level of involvement seems prudent.

There is some risk in sending our people to help them, but I think it's manageable. Sutra would be a good place to start because they have spirit grade immortality. I know I'm one of the people who harps on information security a lot, but I think deployments like this are worth it. Some amount of leakage is an inevitable price of doing business.

I mean, if not now then when? What are they supposed to do to gain firsthand experience with earth? How can we use the advantage of a large coordinated state acting in multiple places without anyone learning about us?

Take that smash and grab we paid Odin for after killing Ortega. We have our own CIA equivalent, some of which should be capable of safely operating outside the courts, but we couldn't trust them to do it because they don't have the exposure needed to translate their skills into this new environment.

We need to walk before we can run, and from a purely self interested perspective this is a good opportunity for that.

From a more empathetic one the Shih we're leaving out are the ones who are at the most risk. They're the active demon hunters who're going to be in the trenches all the way up into the dawn of the sixth age.

If sending very foreign exchange students isn't palatable medicine and other material support would be good. I'm particularly curious about our ability to help with the chi problem via industrial alchemy.

Pretty much every WoD game line that has alchemy includes multiple options for restoring physical stamina and healing injuries using it. Given that chi is literally life force it seems plausible that we could make something to restore it.

Maybe not in the classic mana potion style, but a buff to their ability to regenerate it coupled with enriched materials to make it from isn't particularly exotic as far as 1-2 dot potions go.
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Those are very good points. If the shih are going to be tempted by actually friendly and stable social interaction towards something drastic, they are going to be tempted by something designed to be tempting too. And if so, it's far better for everyone involved, and not involved too, that they are tempted by us, rather than Mikaboshi or denarians, or soviet KGB.

Will shih be changed by their experience with us? Yes, they absolutely will. Is it bad? Some will perceive it as such. Can we guarantee that everyone comes to this with their eyes open, and with honesty and best intentions in mind? Yes, we can. Will the interaction enrich both parties? On average, I believe so.

And finally, how fast is the wheel turning and what are the consequences of being left behind? Despite how we are (so far) the only exalt active in the setting, and even accounting (hopefully) for the distorted perspective of being in the middle of it all, I think the change of Ages is coming fast. Far faster than any of the ancient conspiracies, societies, and monsters is individually prepared for. We have already tipped the board, Nemesis is preparing to break the masquerade, White Council is looking to embrace new technology and age, Kakuri and Odin are both looking for more infernals, Red Court might do something stupid soon... It's all snowballing. Better to risk that good people are tempted and changed by good people, than they are wiped out or otherwise harmed by bad ones.
 
Yog said:
Can we guarantee that everyone comes to this with their eyes open, and with honesty and best intentions in mind? Yes, we can
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Lol no we can't. Molly can't mind control people, she doesn't do that stuff anymore. She can only be very convincing at most and if people don't care to have their minds changed to begin with it doesn't matter what you tell them.
 
BoredMan said:
Lol no we can't. Molly can't mind control people, she doesn't do that stuff anymore. She can only be very convincing at most and if people don't care to have their minds changed to begin with it doesn't matter what you tell them.
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We literally have a crown that gives perfect answers such as motivation from as little as a picture or do you mean permanently.
 
Degorium said:
We literally have a crown that gives perfect answers such as motivation from as little as a picture or do you mean permanently.
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Well we don't have the ability to micromanage everyone for one. Some things are going to get delegated or stuff like this won't be viable in the long run since we are planning to increase scale and we have a maximum of five days at a time in the Five Courts.

Not to mention the Crown gets iffy when free will is involved. Someone's motives and mindset can change and or be influenced by bad parties after we use the Crown to verify things in the moment.
 
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