Remove ads

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Reader mode
firefrog600 said:
Ehhh the White God is clearly not just a catholic thing nor are all the tenants of Catholicism true in this universe or anything. Even the way God or angels appear can change based off on how people see them even if their underlying nature doesn't according to Butcher.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's the lip service.

Butcher says that, but his entire story from start to finish never shows anyone else at the white God's level or that entity acting under a different name.

Cause that's how it works in the DF, two people with very different cultural backgrounds in the room with Uriel under his Uriel guise see the same thing reality under the same name, but if he was using a different name he could appear a different person in the Odin/Kringle style.

You can say it's a limit of perspective, but the story is only explored from the eyes the readers view from. Telling me that the god of the Bible, the august personage of jade, and Buddha are all the same guy in the DF for whatever reason is great, but if the only mask with globe trotting servants that do anything for even the most world threatening plots is Catholic God the the silence in your plot speaks louder than the whisper in your exposition.

Not saying it's better this way, but Butcher's design choices are pretty clear. Even European folklore is more important than major non-Abrahamic faiths for most aspects of canon.

firefrog600 said:
Also less relevant but figures like Mab and Leanensidhe have actually canonically interacted with relatively unimportant people throughout history. Like painters, composers, or just random people they come across. The latter interacted with bards, poets, and painters who sook her out for inspiration often ended bad for them of course. Given its not something they do regularly of course just you know across the centuries and such.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sometimes, but the point remains that you can't reliably buy weather services from the fey as a scrub. Fertility for a field maybe, but old McDonald can't trade cows for spring rains anymore.
 
firefrog600 said:
Also given the masquerade is far more light than in world of darkness. Almost no factions will just kill a normie just for knowing about the supernatural. Its more a general convenience thing on all sides thats been encouraged throughout the centuries by pretty much all groups for various reasons.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The ecosystem of discrediting agencies seem much more developed than in WOD mostly because they do just kill normies.

It's almost as if there have been generations of supernatural killing whistle blowers until an entire protective culture grew around them discrediting them for their own sake and then grew a life of its own.
 
BronzeTongue said:
That's the lip service.

Butcher says that, but his entire story from start to finish never shows anyone else at the white God's level or that entity acting under a different name.

Cause that's how it works in the DF, two people with very different cultural backgrounds in the room with Uriel under his Uriel guise see the same thing reality under the same name, but if he was using a different name he could appear a different person in the Odin/Kringle style.

You can say it's a limit of perspective, but the story is only explored from the eyes the readers view from. Telling me that the god of the Bible, the august personage of jade, and Buddha are all the same guy in the DF for whatever reason is great, but if the only mask with globe trotting servants that do anything for even the most world threatening plots is Catholic God the the silence in your plot speaks louder than the whisper in your exposition.

Not saying it's better this way, but Butcher's design choices are pretty clear. Even European folklore is more important than major non-Abrahamic faiths for most aspects of canon.


Sometimes, but the point remains that you can't reliably buy weather services from the fey as a scrub. Fertility for a field maybe, but old McDonald can't trade cows for spring rains anymore.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well I'm not saying he is those figures for one just that things can change. Also most viewpoints are from a western viewpoint. Also you know their living in the western area so of course most of the time they see western shit. Also that entity under a different name we've seen one archangel total and we've never seen God. Uriel basically told Dresden to stop calling him by a nickname as it can be dangerous. So thats not really fair to Butcher most of the higher shit isn't interacting with small little Dresden.
 
Last edited:
Artemis1992 said:
To come back to this simple example, that doesn't really make sense.

There have always been external forces acting on the weather, during the entire history of mankind in which our understanding of meteorology has developed.

Since the first tribal elders have started to guess if this will be a mild winter or a hard one.
And the answer has always been that, besides what we would call mundane influences, the relative strength of Summer and Winter fighting and plotting against each other also plays into the answer to this question.

The thing in this world is not that supernatural forces are affecting established and studied patters, but that these patterns have never been what we would call normal.
Sure, spontaneous changes would still be noticeable as weird, like a god or wizard or greater Fey altering the weather locally, but the big changes are the new normal.

And I don't expect you to think up a world in which that has always been the case, because that goes far beyond the scope of this quest.
For example the little ice age in the 13th/14th Century. Would that have happened if Mab still kept the seat of the Lady of Winter free at that time?
Wouldn't a warm-time have made more sense in the context of that?

But we don't even want to try to trace all the changes this would have caused, that would be a work for ages, I just want to explain why I think that a masquerade, voluntary and organic or not, does not mean the world should be as ours but with supernaturals in it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Oh certainly, logically this world should not look like ours, but this is the setting we get, the Dresden world of the crossover. I certainly plan to do my best to show the ways in which the scientific worldview that in our world is actually rock solid is a lot more shaky in a world where the weather is impacted by the faerie courts. I will say this much the father back in history you look the less this world resembles ours, both because that was the time of open magic and because that is the places where Jim Butcher has given me the most room to change things around.
 
fictionfan said:
The ecosystem of discrediting agencies seem much more developed than in WOD mostly because they do just kill normies.

It's almost as if there have been generations of supernatural killing whistle blowers until an entire protective culture grew around them discrediting them for their own sake and then grew a life of its own.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Uh WOD kills far more normies who become aware than here. Like there are thousands if not tens of thousands of normies who are just peripherally aware of the supernatural and not even part of an organization in the world. If a normie becomes aware of the supernatural in world of darkness and the supernatural figures know and their not already part of an organization you can and often will get a hit squad on you.
 
firefrog600 said:
Uh WOD kills far more normies who become aware than here. Like there are thousands if not tens of thousands of normies who are just peripherally aware of the supernatural and not even part of an organization in the world. If a normie becomes aware of the supernatural in world of darkness and the supernatural figures know and their not already part of an organization you can and often will get a hit squad on you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Was I unclear? That's exactly what I said.
 
Also in fairness to importance of non western things in canon the entire world isn't even that important for the grander scheme of the setting. We've been told Great Dragons could just end the world with the caveat they unlike angels have no where else to go if they do so and are an example of an eastern thing. For things of greater scale we've met like a hand full of gods in the entire series, we've met one archangel, we've met no White God, and we've met like I dunno 8 things that can end the planet if they really wanted to. So for Butcher not showing off things equal to or the same but of a less christian image well I mean yeah but its not like hes even shown much of things in the western sense with that kind of power. So I feel its entirely unfair on your part to say they may as well not exist.

Edit: Overall while said figures are important to the setting their importance often makes them background figures at most.
 
Last edited:
firefrog600 said:
Well I'm not saying he is those figures for one just that things can change. Also most viewpoints are from a western viewpoint. Also you know their living in the western area so of course most of the time they see western shit. Also that entity under a different name we've seen one archangel total and we've never seen God. Uriel basically told Dresden to stop calling him by a nickname as it can be dangerous. So thats not really fair to Butcher most of the higher shit isn't interacting with small little Dresden.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Missing my point, those figures are just examples. I'm also not claiming that all irl Christian scripture is the objective reality of the DF.

What I am saying is that Butcher says stuff about perspective, identity, and masks which does some neat things at the lower level but falls away completely at the peak.

The knights of the cross have the nails that pierced Jesus' limbs in the hilt. Uriel guides them under that name regardless of their personal beliefs.

When a titan is trying to end the world Odin, Mab, and the knights are there. Brahma, the Jade Emperor, and the Holy People didn't even send a thank you card. Sure it happened in the west, but it would have screwed everyone and one of those groups was centered in NA.

Uriel's name discussion is barely relevant, new names aren't the same as ones you already have.

In fairness nothing. If you only let your cosmic god stand in wear one mask when interacting with global plots then you're making a statement to your audience.

I like the Dresden Files, but you can't seriously claim his exposition squares to the story he tells on this.
 
fictionfan said:
The ecosystem of discrediting agencies seem much more developed than in WOD mostly because they do just kill normies.

It's almost as if there have been generations of supernatural killing whistle blowers until an entire protective culture grew around them discrediting them for their own sake and then grew a life of its own.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Part of its also for the sake of self protection like the wizards canonically helped enlgihtenment era thinking and sponsored scientists and philsophers and such. Cause you know the world was often shit for them. Like sure the average 'hunter' of wizards was killing off innocents and minor talents but the environment was pretty shit for wizards and just like a black court vampire even if a normal wizard could kill dozens if not a hundred humans especially before guns much less the big honchos those guys still needed to sleep and shit.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Missing my point, those figures are just examples. I'm also not claiming that all irl Christian scripture is the objective reality of the DF.

What I am saying is that Butcher says stuff about perspective, identity, and masks which does some neat things at the lower level but falls away completely at the peak.

The knights of the cross have the nails that pierced Jesus' limbs in the hilt. Uriel guides them under that name regardless of their personal beliefs.

When a titan is trying to end the world Odin, Mab, and the knights are there. Brahma, the Jade Emperor, and the Holy People didn't even send a thank you card. Sure it happened in the west, but it would have screwed everyone and one of those groups was centered in NA.

Uriel's name discussion is barely relevant, new names aren't the same as ones you already have.

In fairness nothing. If you only let your cosmic god stand in wear one mask when interacting with global plots then you're making a statement to your audience.

I like the Dresden Files, but you can't seriously claim his exposition squares to the story he tells on this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I guess but part of this is the fact that high level figures barely act at all either because of rules or because if they did well goodbye planet. Like I'm fairly sure even if the White God in canon if they thought the earth was gonna die they wouldn't do anything simply cause of free will stuff there's infinite realities and some of those are gonna die. I'm fairly sure the free will for even a few humans opening the outer gates and dooming everyone else is in some ways just as important to them as all of reality surviving. As for showing stuff off Butcher can't and probably shouldn't explore everything their only ever going to show a very small portion of their setting. Also your mentioning figures like the jade emperor or Brahma but its not like we've gotten so much as a post card from God themselves either.

Edit: Butchers while not exposited shown plenty of shit goes down in the world thats not related to Dresden at all countless gods do still exist, entire species exist hes basically never seen like the kenku or the jade vampires, I'm sure other factions and shit exist which harrys seen jack shit of. As for gods and godlike beings well their more background shit 99% of the time in the dresden files.
 
Last edited:
DragonParadox said:
I will say this much the father back in history you look the less this world resembles ours, both because that was the time of open magic and because that is the places where Jim Butcher has given me the most room to change things around.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I expect black Court is a huge part of it. Maybe they actually openly ruled Rome? You know during that time when the death rate of Romen Emperors could get as high as 5 per year.
 
fictionfan said:
I expect black Court is a huge part of it. Maybe they actually openly ruled Rome? You know during that time when the death rate of Romen Emperors could get as high as 5 per year.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think so I believe butcher said there were like court mages and stuff during its existence though.

Edit: Given I'm sure they had their own powerful pockets and such of rule.
 
Last edited:
I think there's some word of gods there's been like wizard rulers and such at times throughout history. Like Egypt and such maybe Byzantine.
 
firefrog600 said:
I guess but part of this is the fact that high level figures barely act at all either because of rules or because if they did well goodbye planet. Like I'm fairly sure even if the White God in canon if they thought the earth was gonna die they wouldn't do anything simply cause of free will stuff there's infinite realities and some of those are gonna die. I'm fairly sure the free will for even a few humans opening the outer gates and dooming everyone else is in some ways just as important to them as all of reality surviving. As for showing stuff off Butcher can't and probably shouldn't explore everything their only ever going to show a very small portion of their setting. Also your mentioning figures like the jade emperor or Brahma but its not like we've gotten so much as a post card from God themselves either.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You're tying yourself in knots to claim this is all consistent and necessary when it isn't.

Butcher wrote those rules, and he left his preferred god archtype a loophole.

Through which he slipped an archangel and three holy swords which constitute the majority of the list of major artifacts in the DF. Almost all of which it should be noted are connected to Christian mythos.

That is a damn sight better than a postcard, and unless you're going to call Uriel a liar it counts as interacting even if the big man himself doesn't speak.

You could posit they did something invisible that was critically helpful, but I could insert anything I want that way. Perhaps they trapped a fallen tier demon we've never heard of in a teacup hidden on the other side of Saturn, which is why we never hear from them.

Maybe everyone else's god-mask went out to get cigarettes, but will be back any day now.

I'd prefer to see the concept played straight and actually see those masks act, but claiming that's default canon is plainly wrong.
 
BronzeTongue said:
You're tying yourself in knots to claim this is all consistent and necessary when it isn't.

Butcher wrote those rules, and he left his preferred god archtype a loophole.

Through which he slipped an archangel and three holy swords which constitute the majority of the list of major artifacts in the DF. Almost all of which it should be noted are connected to Christian mythos.

That is a damn sight better than a postcard, and unless you're going to call Uriel a liar it counts as interacting even if the big man himself doesn't speak.

You could posit they did something invisible that was critically helpful, but I could insert anything I want that way. Perhaps they trapped a fallen tier demon we've never heard of in a teacup hidden on the other side of Saturn, which is why we never hear from them.

Maybe everyone else's god-mask went out to get cigarettes, but will be back any day now.

I'd prefer to see the concept played straight and actually see those masks act, but claiming that's default canon is plainly wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My point is that even the God doesn't act as far as we see their nothing more than a background character we've seen like less than 5 gods throughout the whole story. I don't need to call it consistent I'm saying as far as Dresdens story goes 99% of the time their irrelevant figures out in some distant horizon we'll never see. You can say its preference from Butcher and its likely even true to some degree but if its preference he's given more writing about werewolves than he has for angels, their powers, their backstories, their rules and shit throughout the books.

Edit: Also as far as necessary goes yeah nah I never said that Butcher has a story he wants to tell but your acting like he's whitewashing the world or something. He's basically telling the epic of a western heroes story plenty of background figures exist which will never be shown who none the less are important to the world.
 
Last edited:
BoredMan said:
Who is the overworked Seerer?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ivy, Lash calls her the Seer, not the Archive because that is just what the Fallen call her

fictionfan said:
I expect black Court is a huge part of it. Maybe they actually openly ruled Rome? You know during that time when the death rate of Romen Emperors could get as high as 5 per year.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

As was mentioned at the Roman Style party Lara threw a few updates ago, the elders of the White Court, specifically House Raith had significant power over Rome. Daddy Raith is one of the very few survivors of that time as is Leinth, Isabela's uncle and tutor..

The Black Court would find it hard to rule most societies openly given their whole Evil Dead vibe, but the Jade Court for instance did rule in Ancient China as the people's honorable but eternally hungry ancestors before the Shih happened to them.
 
fictionfan said:
The ecosystem of discrediting agencies seem much more developed than in WOD mostly because they do just kill normies.

It's almost as if there have been generations of supernatural killing whistle blowers until an entire protective culture grew around them discrediting them for their own sake and then grew a life of its own.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That seems to be tied to the fact that knightly orders, heroes, scions, bogatyrs and so on are either incredibly rare or do not exist at all. Most cultures had either "hobby" groups or whole organisations of people whose job it was to deal with supernatural threats. Up to beating them into the ground when needed but sometimes simply working as a go between to make both sides come to an agreement. Some of those people were incredibly powerful and could pass down their powers through different means.

All those people simply do not exist in Dresden Files. And seemingly never existed.
 
[X] Reveal the plot, the way Nemesis killed her parents to make her a pawn in its plots
-[X] Use Naked Wicked Souls on her to tailor the approach
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top