Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[X] [ALMOST FULL DISCLOSURE]: Explain your crown. She doesn't need to know the limitations only that there are limitations.

Mostly because it's impossible for us to actually hide from her that we have super high level divination. But we don't need to say everything.
 
The fact they have to go out and fight them in front of the gates suggests one or more of those assumptions are wrong.
When using outside, fairy and Raksha logic there are far more possibilities. For example the other gates might be imposing a narrative on the outsiders. Or the outer gates were created by the outsiders to impose a narrative on creation. Stuff on the boundaries operate on weird moon logic all the time. It often isn't actually a case of clear power levels. And often don't act optimally.
 
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So? We have talked to loads of other old people and have a super old person advisor in our head. If we want to say his old person skill makes him hard to read give him more dice on poker face. This is an opposed roll and seems to just be getting a free bonus not based on skill.

You could also say that he should have a lower DC for being confronted by a young overlady.
How many five hundred plus year old people have we talked to?
I can only recall Arawn, Mab and Maeve, and of all of them only Maeve was easy to read.
The Merlin was only around 300+ years old in canon.

Because thats not how the mechanics work.
The more difficult the task is, the higher the DC. Thats how it usually works in ExWoD. And someone like Kincaid who's been operating at these levels for longer than most modern nations have existed is gonna be a little harder than most mortals.


My dude, he used to work for Drakul. He currently works for the Archive.
He almost killed Arianna's husband Duke Paolo a couple years ago in Death Masks, and did kill a bunch of Denarians in Small Favor. Its literally his job not to look impressed.

Molly is hardly the first heavy hitter he's had to maintain a pokerface around.
It literally means there aren't multiple iterations of outsiders there are only the outsiders. As opposed to say Mab or Odin who have different iterations the outsiders do not.

When asking if there are different iterations of them he said no. There are different harry dresdens, there are different Mabs, there are different odins. There are not different Uriels and there are not different Outsiders.
No, you are very much misreading that.

He spoke to the greater organization, he didnt make any comments about composition or members.
Its like, to use an imperfect analogy, saying Hamas is Hamas whether its in Germany or Gaza; they share the same ideology and goals and methods. It doesnt mean that its literally the same people in both places.
 
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How many five hundred plus year old people have we talked to?
I can only recall Arawn, Mab and Maeve, and of all of them only Maeve was easy to read.
The Merlin was only around 300+ years old in canon.

Because thats not how the mechanics work.
The more difficult the task is, the higher the DC. Thats how it usually works in ExWoD. And someone like Kincaid who's been operating at these levels for longer than most modern nations have existed is gonna be a little harder than most mortals.


My dude, he used to work for Drakul. He currently works for the Archive.
He almost killed Arianna's husband Duke Paolo a couple years ago in Death Masks, and did kill a bunch of Denarians in Small Favor. Its literally his job not to look impressed.

Molly is hardly the first heavy hitter he's had to maintain a pokerface around.

No, you are very much misreading that.

He spoke to the greater organization, he didnt make any comments about composition or members.
Its like, to use an imperfect analogy, saying Hamas is Hamas whether its in Germany or Gaza; they share the same ideology and goals and methods. It doesnt mean that its literally the same people in both places.
If thats how you read it then how do you explain that Mab can exist across multiple universes with the same job but still count as a different Mab? Because hes said there are different iterations of characters but that didn't apply here. There is a difference between the two what is it?

Also how do you explain butcher saying that no there are not other iterations of outsiders?
 
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How many five hundred plus year old people have we talked to?
I can only recall Arawn, Mab and Maeve, and of all of them only Maeve was easy to read.
The Merlin was only around 300+ years old in canon.

Because thats not how the mechanics work.
The more difficult the task is, the higher the DC. Thats how it usually works in ExWoD. And someone like Kincaid who's been operating at these levels for longer than most modern nations have existed is gonna be a little harder than most mortals.
Mab was hard to read because she had bunches dice representing her skill that came from age.

This doesn't matter now because the QM has already weighed in that he has a stonefaced merit (which has little to do with age someone older than him would have similar difficulty). But from a mechanics point of view reading a million year old and a baby is exactly the same besides the fact that the million year old is likely to have more dice for the opposed roll. It is still the same task. Now if that million year old is wearing a mask or has a face made of stone then the DC for reading them might go up. But pure experience should not make DCs harder unless that experience is used for something like putting on a mask.

This isn't a game of power levels where the person with the higher power level has a clear advantage in every contest around the board.
 
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Ok, if we're pulling examples out. What about the Dawn that exalts in Mexico? Who goes on to slay The lords of outer night. How about the Dusk in slavakia that slays Dracul And breaks the festiring power of the black court. How about the full moon in Arizona? Lay's low The Nagaloshi in the region. How about the infernal in China? That destroys mikaboshi and reforms his hell. The chosen of battles that breaks the house of Saud in Arabia.
The twilight in South Africa. Who finally makes his big break through on soft tissue cancer. The Daybreak in Lithuania That finds something that can harmlessly break down plastic. The changing moon in india that finally deals a Decisive blow against the functional element of the caste system In India. The chosen of secrets in sasquatuan that finally breaks the secret of cold fusion.
The idea that exalts are inherently dangerous or violent is false. The only reason we see so much combat is because we're magically involved inherently so we live with a Sword of Of the cross, Hopelessly infatuated with a danger Magnet wizard In a deeply magical active city. Even if you were subscribed to the idea that exalts Or first and foremost, weapons, rather than the master work of a great crafter, not every weapon goes directly on the front lines. The vast majority of exalts will pursue ends that are Inherently peaceful but are glorious in their own right.
 
Ok, if we're pulling examples out. What about the Dawn that exalts in Mexico? Who goes on to slay The lords of outer night. How about the Dusk in slavakia that slays Dracul And breaks the festiring power of the black court. How about the full moon in Arizona? Lay's low The Nagaloshi in the region. How about the infernal in China? That destroys mikaboshi and reforms his hell. The chosen of battles that breaks the house of Saud in Arabia.
The twilight in South Africa. Who finally makes his big break through on soft tissue cancer. The Daybreak in Lithuania That finds something that can harmlessly break down plastic. The changing moon in india that finally deals a Decisive blow against the functional element of the caste system In India. The chosen of secrets in sasquatuan that finally breaks the secret of cold fusion.
The idea that exalts are inherently dangerous or violent is false. The only reason we see so much combat is because we're magically involved inherently so we live with a Sword of Of the cross, Hopelessly infatuated with a danger Magnet wizard In a deeply magical active city. Even if you were subscribed to the idea that exalts Or first and foremost, weapons, rather than the master work of a great crafter, not every weapon goes directly on the front lines. The vast majority of exalts will pursue ends that are Inherently peaceful but are glorious in their own right.
ehhh I wouldn't say majority I'd say about half.
 
133 full moons 30 Dawns 20 Battles 20 Dusk 10 Conquerers (Infernals) 213 of 932 Only 25% around there is That's if they play exactly the type infinitely. I say these people definitely will fight there immediately and then go about their lives. Like the exalted are known to do the idea that like they stopped having Motivations by being exalted is weird.
 
133 full moons 30 Dawns 20 Battles 20 Dusk 10 Conquerers (Infernals) 213 of 932 Only 25% around there is That's if they play exactly the type infinitely. I say these people definitely will fight there immediately and then go about their lives. Like the exalted are known to do the idea that like they stopped having Motivations by being exalted is weird.
I was debating that they'd all aim for good works like listed.
 
I can't say they all would, but like everyone likes to think they leave a legacy, right? They still have families and needs right. These people don't wanna destroy reality inherently. Because that's really dumb, especially when you just got an ability that allows you to change it. And there's the thing right. A lot of people don't want to be administrating or hurting or conquering people, especially in a modern Era like these people don't regress back to bronze age Mentality, simply because they exalted. If they don't know about the supernatural scene, they're gonna go determine their talents to the political scene and the science medicine art scene to approve the lives of themselves And the people around Them.
 
I can't say they all would, but like everyone likes to think they leave a legacy, right? They still have families and needs right. These people don't wanna destroy reality inherently. Because that's really dumb, especially when you just got an ability that allows you to change it. And there's the thing right. A lot of people don't want to be administrating or hurting or conquering people, especially in a modern Era like these people don't regress back to bronze age Mentality, simply because they exalted. If they don't know about the supernatural scene, they're gonna go determine their talents to the political scene and the science medicine art scene to approve the lives of themselves And the people around Them.
In fairness plenty of people live under oppressive regimes who'd likely cause civil wars.
 
If you live under an opressive government who does not accord you the human right to pursue the ability to be happy to have a home to eat Well and have a family that is safe. It deserves any level of civil disobedience, whether that be outright violence. I'm not particularly caring about that. If failed to accord humans, they're rights as humans. You probably deserve to have a Civil War. It's a shame that people die in those, but they fight them for a reason.
Edit: That comes off kind of Harsh. But it's the fact that it is true and no situations are inevitable. These governments do not have to badger and intimidate the citizens of the land They supposedly govern. And as an exalt, the ability to incinuit yourself into a in change of the inside is actually not impossible, unlike in real life. Which if you go in you're probably gonna be Indoctrinated by the system.
 
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Not that I recall.

Unless I'm forgetting something you've raised two basic counter points.

1) Controlling who has access, which is technically possible for some of them but so difficult the people designing them didn't bother. Just locking them up was already a trial.
Seal of Eight Divinities worked perfectly well to distinguish between Autochtonia and Creation, and prevent exaltations from selecting mortals inside it. I am not sure, but I think humans surviving inside Malfeas also couldn't exalt unless the free exaltation also happened to be inside Malfeas.

Distance and perfect effects are capable of limiting the selection pools of exaltations. From there, providing an exaltation with a pool of acceptable candidates within a designated area has at least a non-zero chance of success.
2) Somehow getting in contact with them as they're chosen all over the world and getting them to sign up with us. Which doesn't account for the fact that these are going to be people with their own motives and beliefs that we have no reason to believe would be in alignment with ours.
Assuming it's just Molly acting with no prep? Use the vault itself as a focus to find the locations of all Exalts. Use RVD to travel from one exaltation site to the other, using Essence-dissecting stare to find exalts within the closest five miles, and using local areas as foci (scene foci fade after a year and a day) to further narrow down the search. This is the worst case scenario. A better case scenario is one where Molly and allied forces have forces have identified likely candidates via magical astrology (should work at least for sidereal potentials), have agents in place in all major and minor cities, have called in favors from Winter, Summer, Odin, White Court, Roman Catholic Church, the Library of Congress, Archive (who gets access to all cameras with a recording device everywhere in the world in real time) and other factions, and the agents of said factions will be with the newly exalted within an hour of exaltation, using carefully prepared introductions to explain what the hell is going on.
Suppose we get a Lunar with a grudge, more interested in killing fey nobles than in any consequences of their actions. How about a day caste who thinks the masquerade should come down, regardless of the casualties involved in just doing it? Betting everything on being able to talk other exalts down from their own motives is not a good plan.
Assuming that an Essence 5 social-specked Molly with social-boosting splendors crafted specifically for the occasion, with fortune path boosts, cannot talk down an essence 1 newly exalted (because they have perfect defense and intimacy X: all-consuming hate), and cannot wear them down, and cannot imprison them (it's quite possible to imprison an exalt for a prolonged period of time) and then talk them down, and they are an active and uncompromising danger to reality? Molly kills them. Or Mab kills them. After some time a group of their elder exalted peers kills them.

We don't need to perfectly catch every exalt. We need to have a plurality of exalts on out side for the system to self-stabilize into a situation where our position is leading.
No we aren't, not in this respect at least.

The age of legends didn't really have any much in the way of cultural or religious divides, and the open warfare consumed so much attention there wasn't time for serious political knife fighting for the most part.

After it was over the concentration of power kept things running, but there's a reason that the dragon blooded kept hunting Solars down instead of trying to salvage them.
The reason dragonblooded kept hunting solars down was state-enforced religious dogma. Age of Legends had Great Curse, and the embodiment of all virtue hopelessly addicted to games of divinity.
Which is why the UN has solved all global conflicts right?

People aren't 100% reasonable all of the time, and even when they are trying to be it doesn't stop conflicts of interest.

I'm also skeptical of the idea that we could run all over the planet, crossing variably hostile territory, to pick up every single exalt out there and convince them to all cooperate despite having nothing in common but power. Especially once other powers start making offers.
But did UN make things worse? A solution doesn't have to be perfect to be better than doing nothing or maintaining a status quo.
Most warlocks are minor talents who are fairly weak. They can do nasty stuff, but for the majority of history they weren't really able to become more than a local problem most of the time.

Proper wizards are dangerous, but they take a relatively long time to grow into that power fully and need a lot of training to really get up there. They're also vulnerable to the basic human condition, as Butcher notes in his WoG.

Also worth noting that people like Molly and Dresden are wizard heavyweight champions. Summoning evil stuff is on the table for them, but the average wizard isn't going to be animating armies of zombies easily.

They're an accounted for part of the world that has a long spin up time and have to put a lot more work into breaking the rules.

A wizard can't really replicate the crown of eyes, launch high grade global range curses on nearly arbitrary numbers with zero warning, or permanently kill true immortals without playing the special circumstances game.
If I understand correctly, summoning demons (not outsiders) is relatively easy. And, again, self-reinforcing loops.
The white council isn't a good example for what you want anyway. Its core purpose is to limit the power of wizards over the mortal world, something that was important to keeping it together in the first place. It's noted in a WoG that there's a lot of stuff they couldn't get involved with in the first place, because having members from all over the world meant that poking things would inevitably cause internal conflict. We'd have the same problem.
So, why wouldn't this model work for exalts? It worked for wizards, mostly. A variant of the same model, where exalted society keeps each other out of politics, limiting themselves to "general good" things, like developing clean energy (but not pushing it), protecting reality from monsters, etc, is a solution. It's not a "new deliberative" solution, but it's better than status quo.

It wouldn't work as a direct copy and paste of White Council, but as an interim solution it's viable.

EDIT: More detailed threat mitigation plans can be developed, and I acknowledge that adding a new factor to a stable ecosystem increases risks of systemic collapse while a new equilibrium stabilizes.
 
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We see Rashid and Mother Summer at the Gates.
Neither implies that there's a perfect effect on the Gates that caps the potential risks, nor has Butcher stated or implied in any of his WoGs that any particular Outsiders arent allowed to tackle the defenses.

If they are as buff as you think, a concentrated attack involving several of them would have overloaded the Fae Courts. Or they'd simply send someone along with the knowledge to summon them; we do see He Who Walks Behind summoned twice in canon using mortal-accessible rituals; the second time, it wasnt even a wizard doing the summoning, just a strega
Despite being involved in it creation the Shadow of All Things could not enter Creation until after the Sun was created. And the Sun was later being stomped by a fey that created it form to counter the UC near perfectly. Wanting to enter, and being able to enter, do not mean you get to bring your full power when you enter.
 
Which is why the UN has solved all global conflicts right?

People aren't 100% reasonable all of the time, and even when they are trying to be it doesn't stop conflicts of interest.

I'm also skeptical of the idea that we could run all over the planet, crossing variably hostile territory, to pick up every single exalt out there and convince them to all cooperate despite having nothing in common but power. Especially once other powers start making offers.
I'd hope the least reasonable ones would get themselves killed early on.

Exalted are powerful, but drawing too much heat to quickly, by hunting Fey-Nobles, declaring public open season on vampires or similar stunts is a good way to get yourself killed before you get allies and a decent survival-build.

I'd be more worried about those who get snatched up by the hostile factions, like the Yama Hells or some Black Court Ancient or even Outsider-cultists. An Exalt that's pulling for the wrong side is worse than one running wild, because the latter doesn't have the support to survive long.
 
Earth Scorpion The unconquered sun wasn't actually being beaten up by that being. But you're argument is actually completely sound. He is only able to avoid being killed by the unconquered sun because the unconquered sun and gave his word not to injure him. So essentially, the unconquered sun was leaving himself perfectly on defense for an indefinite period of time until the moon came And consumed that particular rakasha. Which adds to your point that Oaths and bounds hold true and your ability to carry your strength through them are indefinitely limited if they are constrained. For all we know the reason greater Outer gods don't move in Or try to push Past the gate, it's because they would leave a not insignificant portion of their strength only outside.
Like the gate is a fascination. Where if you move past it, you agree to certain things like a definite form, Identity things like that. That's why they're called the outsiders. Because beans that move in. He who walks behind, he who walks beside, he who walks along. They all have identities and they can be diffused. But they have true selves because they have passed the gate. that's just a theory, though.
 
If thats how you read it then how do you explain that Mab can exist across multiple universes with the same job but still count as a different Mab? Because hes said there are different iterations of characters but that didn't apply here. There is a difference between the two what is it?

Also how do you explain butcher saying that no there are not other iterations of outsiders?
Because Butcher wants it that way, and he hasnt explained all his thought processes.
I dont have to justify his decisions.
The fact that he wants different Mabs and different Odins is a key plot requirement for his time travel book.

Mab was hard to read because she had bunches dice representing her skill that came from age.

This doesn't matter now because the QM has already weighed in that he has a stonefaced merit (which has little to do with age someone older than him would have similar difficulty). But from a mechanics point of view reading a million year old and a baby is exactly the same besides the fact that the million year old is likely to have more dice for the opposed roll. It is still the same task. Now if that million year old is wearing a mask or has a face made of stone then the DC for reading them might go up. But pure experience should not make DCs harder unless that experience is used for something like putting on a mask.

This isn't a game of power levels where the person with the higher power level has a clear advantage in every contest around the board.
The QM has weighed in.

Age =/= Skill. Bob is at least six hundred years old, and he's still hella easy to read.
However, Kincaid is an over five hundred year old scion with hundreds of years of experience in kinetic diplomacy on behalf of some of the setting's heavy hitters. He has the experience to be hard to read.

I can't say they all would, but like everyone likes to think they leave a legacy, right? They still have families and needs right. These people don't wanna destroy reality inherently. Because that's really dumb, especially when you just got an ability that allows you to change it. And there's the thing right. A lot of people don't want to be administrating or hurting or conquering people, especially in a modern Era like these people don't regress back to bronze age Mentality, simply because they exalted. If they don't know about the supernatural scene, they're gonna go determine their talents to the political scene and the science medicine art scene to approve the lives of themselves And the people around Them.
Respectfully?
Over three fifths of the 20th century was lived under a regime where two of the world's superpowers were committed to burning the world to ash if a nuclear conflict broke out, including nuclear strikes at non-combatants.

People who have destroyed their own access to healthcare or economic aid because some undeserving outgroup would benefit, and that would be wrong. Suicide bombers who will die in order to just inflict some more pain on a hated community or group thats they believe wronged them in some way.

There's literally mass shooters every week in the US who wreck their own lives if it wrecks someone else's.

The last four to six years in the West have conclusively disproven any idea that people are rational, and act as a sharp reminder that spite is a strong human motivator. The idea that Exalted, drawn randomly from the human population, are any wiser, or more restrained, or more far-sighted than the rest of Humanity doesnt pass the smell test.
Despite being involved in it creation the Shadow of All Things could not enter Creation until after the Sun was created. And the Sun was later being stomped by a fey that created it form to counter the UC near perfectly. Wanting to enter, and being able to enter, do not mean you get to bring your full power when you enter.
I am reasonably sure the first assertion is not true.
The second about Prince Laashe, has no relevance here.

Dresdenverse Earth is not the same setting as Ex2 Creation.
The same rules explicitly do not apply.
 
Because Butcher wants it that way, and he hasnt explained all his thought processes.
I dont have to justify his decisions.
The fact that he wants different Mabs and different Odins is a key plot requirement for his time travel book.


The QM has weighed in.

Age =/= Skill. Bob is at least six hundred years old, and he's still hella easy to read.
However, Kincaid is an over five hundred year old scion with hundreds of years of experience in kinetic diplomacy on behalf of some of the setting's heavy hitters. He has the experience to be hard to read.


Respectfully?
Over three fifths of the 20th century was lived under a regime where two of the world's superpowers were committed to burning the world to ash if a nuclear conflict broke out, including nuclear strikes at non-combatants.

People who have destroyed their own access to healthcare or economic aid because some undeserving outgroup would benefit, and that would be wrong. Suicide bombers who will die in order to just inflict some more pain on a hated community or group thats they believe wronged them in some way.

There's literally mass shooters every week in the US who wreck their own lives if it wrecks someone else's.

The last four to six years in the West have conclusively disproven any idea that people are rational, and act as a sharp reminder that spite is a strong human motivator. The idea that Exalted, drawn randomly from the human population, are any wiser, or more restrained, or more far-sighted than the rest of Humanity doesnt pass the smell test.

I am reasonably sure the first assertion is not true.
The second about Prince Laashe, has no relevance here.

Dresdenverse Earth is not the same setting as Ex2 Creation.
The same rules explicitly do not apply.
No I was asking you how their different whats the difference between the outsiders and different iterations of mab and odin? Well at least your interpretation of the difference because there is a difference here. Though I'm done with this conversation not mad at you or anything just I disagree and we have differing beliefs on what the word of god means. Its more me and my nerdy rage that continues this conversation at all given it doesn't matter for this quest what so ever.

I was curious Uju whats like the next game changing thing we're likely to buy with experience? For the setting that is what can we buy thats reasonably in reach 1-4 arcs that we're likely to buy thats game changing?
 
By the way guys uh are we ever gonna make a decision on whether to bug a lot of chicago or just never do that? Cause it'd be nice to at least have some cyberdemons in the police stuff and maybe get some stuff in satellites later.
 
I was curious Uju whats like the next game changing thing we're likely to buy with experience? For the setting that is what can we buy thats reasonably in reach 1-4 arcs that we're likely to buy thats game changing?
Black Mirror Incarnation is still very important, IMO, even with our new social invisibility power.
 
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