fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I am just imagining Molly saying "The fact that you can't take your sword with you to my kingdom makes it inconvenient to bring you on adventures with me. So I made you a replacement."
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Well that was a useful bit of dragonology. I don't think I've ever seen the bit with the dragons starting off as seemingly mundane and legless beings and then growing into dragons for instance and while a lot of the motifs are familiar the specifics are not. Oddly enough I do not think Romanian dragon-like beings the Zmei have any kind of life-cycle mentioned in the legends, they are just there and causing trouble, kidnapping princesses etc... My ancestors seem to have been sleeping on some gems from their neighbors.
Personally, the craziest thing about the Working is that Salina smuggled it in as a rider on some other bill the Deliberative was voting on. (Strongly implied to be the subsidy plan that had the Hierophant lying his ass off about the Suns endorsement.)
Reality-rewriting magic on a cosmic scale was done via some legislative trickery.
It also led to Bright-Shattered-Ice scanning any and all legislature after this in case Salina or anyone else tried it again.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Well that was a useful bit of dragonology. I don't think I've ever seen the bit with the dragons starting off as seemingly mundane and legless beings and then growing into dragons for instance and while a lot of the motifs are familiar the specifics are not. Oddly enough I do not think Romanian dragon-like beings the Zmei have any kind of life-cycle mentioned in the legends, they are just there and causing trouble, kidnapping princesses etc... My ancestors seem to have been sleeping on some gems from their neighbors.
Um...I'm pretty sure the Longmen/The Dragon Gate has some sort of equivalent in Exalted, but maybe I'm misremembering. Or did you mean like literally having legless beings just growing into dragons without any magical places to turn them into one?
I meant just inherently yes.
- Location
- washington
uh since no one will tell me @DragonParadox do you remember or know where I can check the exp threshold for essence development?
Sorry, you were talking about something? I seem to have forgotten.
Yeah, it fit quite well, I think the number is because of one important detail about what you said, namely: potential sidereal.
The system doesn't work as it once did, and there is a possibility that all potential sidereal who didn't exalt got reincarnated, accumulating through the ages.
Or something in this vein, the main sure thing is that the sidereal vibes are through the roof.
Why? It was!
@Yog do you remember where it was? I just know it would be several arcs and forgot to bookmark the post
- Location
- washington
hmm 215 exp wonder how far we are from that. Also appropriate time to trigger of course. man essence 4 to essence 5 is gonna be like 15 arcs or something lol. Essence 5 to essence 6 well thats like to be what 50 arcs? If ever well its supposed to be damn near unattainable anyways so thats fair not like we can't do shit at essence 5 lol.
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- Location
- washington
Hmm we should probably make something to keep track of exp acquisition here. With listed achievements for what got us said exp. Anyone know our current exp?
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We should definitely check Harry's soul and magic against those of our human subjects. Because it's plausible that all our (human) subjects are starborn. If the property is only "have an Age of Legends soul", our entire population might qualify. And if not, we learn much more, and narrow the criteria and properties better.
- Location
- washington
I doubt it but if it was true even with our loyal population that'd be a nightmare in a couple centuries when certain people know enough to pull off said summons. Given if we survive a couple centuries we'll definitely be a primordial so maybe its not that big of a nightmare actually.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
On second thought remember how we were completely unable to stop Dad from getting his sword back after disarming him? Maybe we could make some gloves to amplify that effect allowing him to summon Amoracchius to himself. Their native connection should cut right through any possible interference.
Might be possible just using a prodigal. Especially given that it's the sword of love and this is a gift from his daughter. Just our loving motivation for making it should be a special enough reagent.
Edit: Although if gloves are cumbersome enchanting his wedding ring would be even more symbolically meaningful.
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So, emotions aside (this was a fantastic update), what have we learned?
1) Harry is an old soul. either from the Age of Legends, or the Age of Beauty (which in WoD cosmology are separate things, if I understand correctly). That Harry's mother's sources conflate them immedaitely indicates that she's working with imperfect ones, or that Dresden's universe is an earlier Age to canon WoD. I think the first hypothesis is more plausible.
His soul is old enough to have existed when Outsiders weren't Outsiders yet, and this gives him certain protections over them, and probably a certain kinship too. They are not outsiders to him, I guess. Under "sidereal exalted potential" hypothesis (see below), his soul holds vestiges of the Oaths of Surrender, which might hold some sway over Outsiders (Malfeas was not part of Creation, and you could argue that Yozi and their demons were first true outsiders, exiled from Creation).
2) Harry and other Starborn have been initiated into Ancient Sorcery, and said initiation carries over through the cycle of reincarnation
3) The stars have been made to guide [the starborn]. Despite what Margaret Le Fay thought, this is almost certainly not a metaphor. The question is - which stars, the ones that exist right now, or Age of Legends ones? The information we previously got from Lash about starborn meaning they were born under the stars of previous ages points towards the latter interpretation which, in turn, points towards Sidereals.
Alternatively, this indicates some astrologically discernable destiny, or affinity for astrology.
4) There are no other starborn among White Council, which might mean that Elane is not a starborn (I forget if she's a part of White Council). Or I am reading too much into the form of the question Molly used and the answer she got.
5) This part here:
6) DuMorne had some very, very fragmentary understanding of existence of Salinan working.
So, at the moment my working hypothesis is this: starborn are old souls from the Age of Legends who have been initiated into Sorcery. This initiation carries over through the cycle of reincarnation and the Wheel of Ages, allowing them to use Ancient Sorcery, perhaps even more potently than we can (importantly - we haven't actually passed the initiation, and this might be required to access higher tiers of ancient magic). Assuming they survive (and I think it's a safe bet), some of starborn are souls fated to be sidereals (all sidereal-destined souls would be starborn, but not all starborn would be sidereal-desitned). Based on some of the hints (like the sea comment), and meta narrative reasons (Harry being the protagonist), I believe (but am not sure) that Harry is destined to be a sidereal.
We have the following avenues of research open to us:
1) Use something as a crown focus (a drop of Harry's blood, freely given? his picture? Not sure) to learn about Harry's past lives - this would answer the question if his past life was an exalt. Should be done under CCC (if possible), and with all other boosts we can manage (like Fortune boost from our court)
2) Make magically significant horoscope together with Harry checking his astrologically dictated fate. The answers are almost certain to be interesting, and this might reveal his affinity (probably a merit of some kind) for astrology. We have some preparatory information for making such already - the coordinate system our exaltation uses, and the coordinates of star systems that have life on them, which should be mystically significant. Lash might know something too, and might be able to help.
3) Try to teach Harry Ancient Sorcery. Definitely Exorcism only, the Gate is far, far too dangerous to entrust onto anyone without perfect mental defenses and guarantees that they won't turn against Creation. Teach Lash and Lydia too, if only to see if they can learn it.
4) Check Harry's soul and magic against those of the inhabitants of our Kingdom. The apocalyptic scenario is that all of them count as Starborn, or have potential to become such. If not, we learn more about their and Harry's nature.
5) Try and safely check if Harry can wield essence. If enlighenment (in te exalted terminology) also got preserved over the cycle of reincarnation (unlikely, but possible), Harry should be capable of this, and proper essence use is a very powerful thing. So far the hints have been, as I understand it, that Soulfire is half of the essence (with only creative potential preserved) while I hypothesize that hellfire is the other part. The way to unlocking proper essence manipulation might be learned to use both at the same time and combining them. The tricky part is preventing Harry (and probably surrounding city) from exploding.
1) Harry is an old soul. either from the Age of Legends, or the Age of Beauty (which in WoD cosmology are separate things, if I understand correctly). That Harry's mother's sources conflate them immedaitely indicates that she's working with imperfect ones, or that Dresden's universe is an earlier Age to canon WoD. I think the first hypothesis is more plausible.
His soul is old enough to have existed when Outsiders weren't Outsiders yet, and this gives him certain protections over them, and probably a certain kinship too. They are not outsiders to him, I guess. Under "sidereal exalted potential" hypothesis (see below), his soul holds vestiges of the Oaths of Surrender, which might hold some sway over Outsiders (Malfeas was not part of Creation, and you could argue that Yozi and their demons were first true outsiders, exiled from Creation).
2) Harry and other Starborn have been initiated into Ancient Sorcery, and said initiation carries over through the cycle of reincarnation
3) The stars have been made to guide [the starborn]. Despite what Margaret Le Fay thought, this is almost certainly not a metaphor. The question is - which stars, the ones that exist right now, or Age of Legends ones? The information we previously got from Lash about starborn meaning they were born under the stars of previous ages points towards the latter interpretation which, in turn, points towards Sidereals.
Alternatively, this indicates some astrologically discernable destiny, or affinity for astrology.
4) There are no other starborn among White Council, which might mean that Elane is not a starborn (I forget if she's a part of White Council). Or I am reading too much into the form of the question Molly used and the answer she got.
5) This part here:
is interesting. This might mean Harry's soul trying to exalt over and over again through the ages while its exaltation is locked in the Black Vault, until the very term exalted is forgotten, until the stars have changed, and the universe has been remade again and again. The reaction of melancholy and sadness certainly fits. I am unsure about other possible explanations. If someone has an idea, please tell me.
6) DuMorne had some very, very fragmentary understanding of existence of Salinan working.
So, at the moment my working hypothesis is this: starborn are old souls from the Age of Legends who have been initiated into Sorcery. This initiation carries over through the cycle of reincarnation and the Wheel of Ages, allowing them to use Ancient Sorcery, perhaps even more potently than we can (importantly - we haven't actually passed the initiation, and this might be required to access higher tiers of ancient magic). Assuming they survive (and I think it's a safe bet), some of starborn are souls fated to be sidereals (all sidereal-destined souls would be starborn, but not all starborn would be sidereal-desitned). Based on some of the hints (like the sea comment), and meta narrative reasons (Harry being the protagonist), I believe (but am not sure) that Harry is destined to be a sidereal.
We have the following avenues of research open to us:
1) Use something as a crown focus (a drop of Harry's blood, freely given? his picture? Not sure) to learn about Harry's past lives - this would answer the question if his past life was an exalt. Should be done under CCC (if possible), and with all other boosts we can manage (like Fortune boost from our court)
2) Make magically significant horoscope together with Harry checking his astrologically dictated fate. The answers are almost certain to be interesting, and this might reveal his affinity (probably a merit of some kind) for astrology. We have some preparatory information for making such already - the coordinate system our exaltation uses, and the coordinates of star systems that have life on them, which should be mystically significant. Lash might know something too, and might be able to help.
3) Try to teach Harry Ancient Sorcery. Definitely Exorcism only, the Gate is far, far too dangerous to entrust onto anyone without perfect mental defenses and guarantees that they won't turn against Creation. Teach Lash and Lydia too, if only to see if they can learn it.
4) Check Harry's soul and magic against those of the inhabitants of our Kingdom. The apocalyptic scenario is that all of them count as Starborn, or have potential to become such. If not, we learn more about their and Harry's nature.
5) Try and safely check if Harry can wield essence. If enlighenment (in te exalted terminology) also got preserved over the cycle of reincarnation (unlikely, but possible), Harry should be capable of this, and proper essence use is a very powerful thing. So far the hints have been, as I understand it, that Soulfire is half of the essence (with only creative potential preserved) while I hypothesize that hellfire is the other part. The way to unlocking proper essence manipulation might be learned to use both at the same time and combining them. The tricky part is preventing Harry (and probably surrounding city) from exploding.
That's probably a prodigy.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[x]Yog
Elaine was pretending to be a minor talent by sandbagging her test for White Council membership.
- Location
- washington
well that and white council while not absolute or anything their tests trend towards more general power than subtle power which elaine is better at. Like they have plenty of subtle they just don't test for it as well.
Well, except for the fact that Molly seems to be using the sea that walks against the flame for her remark, not many ideas to point out there for me.
- Location
- Germany
@Yog
I think you are overestimating how tied a soul is to an Exaltation, after death.
Exalted explicitly loose all ties with their Exaltation post mortem, a soul returned after reincarnation is not more likely than other to Exalt again.
What keeps memories of past lifes are the Exaltations themselves, if improperly or not scrubbed after each use.
Just because Harry's soul might have been a Siddie in a past life, doesn't mean that he is particularly likely to Exalt in this life.
And even if he were, it might very well be a more fitting one than Siddie, like a Lunar for his sheer overcoming the odds through grit and will again and again.
I think you are overestimating how tied a soul is to an Exaltation, after death.
Exalted explicitly loose all ties with their Exaltation post mortem, a soul returned after reincarnation is not more likely than other to Exalt again.
What keeps memories of past lifes are the Exaltations themselves, if improperly or not scrubbed after each use.
Just because Harry's soul might have been a Siddie in a past life, doesn't mean that he is particularly likely to Exalt in this life.
And even if he were, it might very well be a more fitting one than Siddie, like a Lunar for his sheer overcoming the odds through grit and will again and again.
1) That just appears to say that there are Outsiders at the Gates of every timeline.
Not that the individual Outsiders are the same across timelines/parallel universes.
2)He made it clear that angels are not on the same tier as anything else in the setting.
Your basic loyalist angel is a starkiller. Uriel can delete galaxies. Outsiders operate on a level where their works can be opposed by mortal agency. Angels dont.
We explicitly see He Who Walks Behind was subject to the rules of the summoning ritual that was using his power to cast entropy curses in Blood Rites, and that was only being operated by a relatively low-level witch.
Not a Starborn or even a White Council-tier practitioner, just a strega.
And we're told that elder wizards can learn magic to combat Outsiders ; the Merlin explicitly did it offscreen himself in Dead Beat. So the balance of evidence is that a lot of the rules apply to them as well, everything from thresholds to
Nope.
Read Sharkface's invasion of Mac's bar in Cold Days. It started out with negotiation first to get them to send Dresden out.
They dont follow supernatural custom, and have no issue doing shit like violating the Accords.
But the way Sharkface responded to Mac's presence makes it clear that they are in some way bound by the actual supernatural ground rules of the setting.
I dont think I agree?
The summoner's free will only matters while the summonee is under the summoner's control/doing the summoner's will.
An Outsider roaming free in mortal Reality is not really under the same protections.
I didnt suggest that the Outside was a superhell or intended to be.
I just said that it was still a part of reality, just outside the portion reserved for Humanity.
The Fae can cross the Outer Gates into it, fight and return just fine. We see them do it.
COMMENTARY
Starborn in canon are just anyone born under the right set of stellar circumstances.
Hence Drakul is Starborn, despite the Ebenezar referring to him as the creature, and the speculation that he was something Other forced into a human body.
Thats why there were 40-plus thousand the last time the Stars Were Right; it was just a function of Earth's population being high enough that so many people were born at the time. But here, apparently its just the same reincarnating souls.
Here's the first point we go clearly off the canon rails
Going to note that we can use the meeting with Ivy to use that scene to ask for what the Archive knows about the Starborn.
Assuming we dont have any other questions more important.
Just putting it out there for the QM to keep in mind.
So Dresden in this AU spent his teenage life between 10 and 16 in Iowa.
And then 16-19 with Ebenezar in the Appalachians, I think.
Yeah, I can see why he immediately ran for the big city.
Salinan Working, huh. Twilights.
I think its implied that Salina's Exaltation either was turned into an Abyssal or Infernal
Which raises questions about Molly's Exaltation.
Michael always coming in at the right time. Best 5 dot purchase we ever made.
Going to note that Justin DuMorne's Master was Senior Council member Simon Petrovich.
Now deceased courtesy of the Red Court. If we are interested in digging into the Salinan thing, we might want to find the time to go to the ruins of Archangel in Russia.
I get the suspicion that Simon being an initial target at the start of the Vampire War might have had more than one reason.
Looking at the options?
The only person that I might not consider bringing is Lydia, since she isnt currently involved.
ANd even that is questionable, since she will be sooner or later.
To be fair? Anyone could learn Terrestrial Sorcery back in Creation. Anyone could do Thaumaturgy as well.Yeah, funny how in this age everyone has innate magic, even if it is just the ability to make a circle
It took a significant amount of education and drive and resources,particularly to raise your Essence, but it was available.
The only thing that was an issue was summoning/binding demons and spirits, since only Exalts could take advantage of the Surrender Oaths to give orders.
Mortal sorcerers had to bargain.
Chinese mythology, carp can become powerful dragons by swimming up a waterfall and leaping over the Dragon Gate.Well that was a useful bit of dragonology. I don't think I've ever seen the bit with the dragons starting off as seemingly mundane and legless beings and then growing into dragons for instance and while a lot of the motifs are familiar the specifics are not. Oddly enough I do not think Romanian dragon-like beings the Zmei have any kind of life-cycle mentioned in the legends, they are just there and causing trouble, kidnapping princesses etc... My ancestors seem to have been sleeping on some gems from their neighbors.
Elaine is explicitly not a member of the White Council; intentionally flunked the tests to avoid attention.
Furthermore, we have no idea if there are any other wizards who are Starborn from previous cycles.
Dresden is a Starborn from the most recent cycle; we have no idea if there are any other wizards from this cycle still alive. 40k people would have included at least some magic users. Elaine might be; we dont know.
Drakul is explicitly a Starborn from a previous cycle. And there's speculation that Rashid the Gatekeeper is one as well.
Starborn =/= Wizard.
There's at least one Fomorian servitor who is a Starborn but not a magic user.
- Location
- Germany
Hard to guess I'd say.
He is old as dirt and he has a magical artifact made from the Outer Gates themselves.
Any power he has over outsiders is as easily explained by genuinely earning it, as by any accident of birth.
At his age, skill and specialization on Outsiders there's not really any way to tell for the casual observer.
This is very strongly suggesting that World of Darkness/Mage the Ascension widderslainte are a thing in this AU.
Wizards/magic-users who are predisposed to become Nephandi because their previous reincarnations had sold themselves to an Outsider/Outsiders in a previous life.
Widderslainte
Widderslainte are reincarnated Avatars of dead Nephandi. The existence of the Widderslainte is a living argument against free will. As unawakened they are sociopaths and monsters: an unusually vicious bully, the child who tortures pets or the source of all those missing young girls, if and when...
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