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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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BronzeTongue said:
It should imply that there are factors other than his actual strength involved in the decision making.
Turning a baseline mortal into something that could win an unrestricted white room fight with a serious combat wizard like that without it becoming noticeable is ridiculous.
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I dont agree.

This is apparently the Outsider specialty; hiding themselves and their power until its actually being used. Lord Raith's magic immunity which he apparently bargained for from Outsiders wasnt obvious either until Ebenezar tried to kill him. And of course I've mentioned Vittorio multiple times.

I find it quite plausible that such power can be hidden until its actually called up to be used.
IIRC, the RPG had at least one mortal character that was built like that.
BronzeTongue said:
There's being risk averse and then there's being too cowardly to make seriously advantageous plays. If it could have taken Mab that easily it would have.

The two cases we have data on are Leansidhe and Maeve. The former got hit by taking - then using - a contaminated artifact of significant power, and the latter was an emotional mess tempted into letting it in for the ability to break the rules imposed on her. That suggests that it can't just infect a sprite and have it tag a major fey to ride around.

Nemesis is really good at hiding, but there are limits on that and it's not playing in the little leagues. It's also not really that helpful, because there are almost no cases where buffs that extreme can be used without ruining the utility of an asset.
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We're talking about different things.

I wasnt talking about Nfesting Mab(as in, Im not sure its possible to Nfest that Queen), I was talking about killing her.
Disrupting Winter's chain of command and leaving them leaderless or with a newbie in the top job. Creating a further opening for Nemesis and its allies to act.

It declined to take the shot. Which makes me wonder.

Artemis1992 said:
One good trick doesn't make a viable combat build.
This might well have been a long-prepared ritual to be used in a specific time and place.
We would ignore it and kill him by Charm-based fiat.

And also,this was clearly something Whampir-flavored specific to Vittorio, not a generic power Nemesis-pawns get. He clearly used vampiric emotion-mastery as the basis for creating it, probably with Nemesis-boosted Lore.
Doesn't mean Justine could use it.

In fact it is an example of what DP said, with Nemesis giving power according to what the pawn already has, comparable to the Ring.

A great power or ritual, but based in Vittorio's own nature and skill with Presence and Dominate disciplines.
Like the lesser Walker giving Skavis with his pre-existing skill at Chimerstry the highest power of that discipline at the party, if you remember.
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It wasnt a ritual.
He had no expectation to fight an expeditionary force here, or have to deal with Dresden.

Lash was very specific that this was an Outsider attack, not a Whampire-flavored specific.
She even referred to having felt something like it before.
Then a look of almost childish resentment came over her face, and she looked over one shoulder before turning back to me. "I…" She shook her head and said, very softly, wonderingly, "She… doesn't deserve you."
Deserved or not, the fallen angel wasn't getting me. Not ever.
Lasciel squared her shoulders and straightened. "You're right," she said. "It is my choice. Listen to me." She leaned closer, her eyes intent. "Vittorio has been given power. That is how he can do this. He is possessed."
I wished I could have raised my eyebrows. Possessed by what?
"An Outsider," Lasciel said. "I have felt such a presence before. This attack is drawn directly from the mind of the Outsider."
Gosh, that was interesting. Not relevant, but interesting.
"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth—because of why you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
What the hell was she talking about?
Thud-thump : 1:26.
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
Which didn't make any sense. Outsiders were all but immune to magic. It took power garnered only from centuries of study and practice, wielded by the most powerful wizards on the planet, even to slow them down.
"Strange, then, don't you think, that you defeated one when you were sixteen years old?"
What? Since when? The only serious victory I'd had over a spiritual entity when I was that young had been when my old master had sent an assassin demon after me. It hadn't turned out the way DuMorne had been hoping.
Lasciel leaned closer. "He Who Walks Behind is an Outsider, Harry. A terrible creature, the most potent of the Walkers, a powerful knight among their ruling entities. But when he came for you, you overthrew him."
True. I had. It was all still a little blurry, but I remembered the end of the fight well enough. Lots and lots of kaboom, and then no more demon. And there was a burning building.
Thud-thump : 1:25.
"Listen," Lasciel said, giving my head a little shake. "You have the potential to hold great power over them. You may be able to escape the power now held over you. If you are sure it is what you want, I can give you an opportunity to defy Malvora's sending. But you'll have to hurry. I don't know how long it will take to throw it off, and they are almost upon you."
After which, we were going to have a long talk about my mother and these Outsiders and their relation to the Black Court and exactly what the hell was going on.
Lasciel—Lash, rather—nodded once and said, "I will tell you all that I can, Harry."
Then she rose and stepped past me and toward the oncoming ghouls and Vitto Malvora. Her clothes made a slow, soft rustle as she stepped away from me, and Marcone's stopwatch went thud —
Tick, tick, tick…
For just a second, no more than a heartbeat or two, I remained impaled on that horrible pike of psychic anguish. Then an odd sensation fell over me, and I don't know precisely how to describe it, except to say that it felt like stepping from brutal, burning sunlight into a sudden, deep shadow. Then that horrible pain eased—not much, but enough to let me suddenly move my arms and my head, enough to know that I could act.
So I froze in place.
 
uju32 said:
Lash was very specific that this was an Outsider attack, not a Whampire-flavored specific.
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But. From your own quote:
This hideous, paralyzing brew of everything darkest in the moral soul was what he had poured out, as the Raith administered desire, the Malvorans gave fear, and the Skavis despair. Vitto had gone beyond them all. He had taken all the worst of the human soul and forged it into a poisonous, deadly weapon.

I'd say for all practical purposes in this quest it's much easier to define as a vampire-power siuped up through the possession.
 
Artemis1992 said:
But. From your own quote:
This hideous, paralyzing brew of everything darkest in the moral soul was what he had poured out, as the Raith administered desire, the Malvorans gave fear, and the Skavis despair. Vitto had gone beyond them all. He had taken all the worst of the human soul and forged it into a poisonous, deadly weapon.

I'd say for all practical purposes in this quest it's much easier to define as a vampire-power siuped up through the possession.
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Yup.
Dresden's opinion on the threat.
Then Lash contradicts him from her own memories.


There's a reason why people avoid using Nemesis name IC, for fear of drawing its attention. Even Fae royalty are careful, for other people's sake, if nothing else. There have to be risks associated with it.
Which speaks to empowerment of agents as a long known threat

They wouldnt be a threat if you could sense said empowerment while the agent here to murk you is a mile off.
 
uju32 said:
Yup.
Dresden's opinion on the threat.
Then Lash contradicts him from her own memories.


There's a reason why people avoid using Nemesis name IC, for fear of drawing its attention. Even Fae royalty are careful, for other people's sake, if nothing else. There have to be risks associated with it.
Which speaks to empowerment of agents as a long known threat

They wouldnt be a threat if you could sense said empowerment while the agent here to murk you is a mile off.
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I still don't believe Nemesis works in these terms.

He stays hidden in his pawn, controlling it and drawing information are its primary purposes.

Acting outside of what the possessed being is supposed to be able to do is already a failure-state as it makes identifying the posession easy for people who could never notice Nemesis through his perfect magical hiding.
It's like a spy revealing they have a gun on them, if they were supposed to impersonate someone harmless, the mere presence of the gun blows the game (not in America maybe, but let the metaphor stand).

Giving his possessed powers beyond their supposed nature endangers Nemesis' plots in general, using them even more so and either should make detection easier.

Keep in mind with agents like Fey nobility or vampire elders Nemesis can bring a lot of power to bear without risking exposure, because these are already powerful beings and everyone expects them to have all kinds of powers and tricks.
Juicing up the human by comparison should bf much harder to do without risking notice and if anyone notices the empowered human they might suspect something weird is going on even if they can't percieve Nemesis.
 
uju32 said:
I dont agree.

This is apparently the Outsider specialty; hiding themselves and their power until its actually being used. Lord Raith's magic immunity which he apparently bargained for from Outsiders wasnt obvious either until Ebenezar tried to kill him. And of course I've mentioned Vittorio multiple times.

I find it quite plausible that such power can be hidden until its actually called up to be used.
IIRC, the RPG had at least one mortal character that was built like that
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You're conflating things.

For one thing Nemesis is the stealth specialist, we have no reason to believe the outside as a whole works the same way. For another, hiding where something came from isn't the same as hiding that it exists.

The White King is a major player who doesn't exactly have someone looking over his shoulder and is expected to be powerful. If you're looking around and see he's got some bullshit going on but can't see the type it wouldn't particularly surprise or alarm past the baseline level for people like him being powerful in the first place.

People like that also need less work to be useful. Filling in a weakness or synergizing with what they have takes less power to achieve a stronger result.

That is not the same as being able to give a mortal the Captain America treatment and then hide the height and muscle you added. There's nothing to hide behind.

Also worth noting that Lord Raith's magic immunity* isn't exactly all it's cracked up to be. It didn't help with that death curse, or stop his daughter from hollowing him out.

I'm not denying that Nemesis can enhance people, or that those enhancements are dangerous, just that it can pump whatever it likes into whoever it likes with virtual impunity.

* He also got it from something other than being a Nemesis host. Some other outsider being able to contrive the ability to make this sort of deal once isn't evidence that Nemesis can do it at will. I'd speculate that the trade off for its speciality probably makes it very bad at this relative to whatever offers those sort of deals.

Otherwise why wouldn't it have repeated the trick with other servants that it was planing to use against wizards, or try making its fey immune to iron? It's not like it hasn't twisted fey against their fundamental nature before with Maeve's ability to lie, and when things went hot that would have been a valuable strategic advantage.

uju32 said:
We're talking about different things.

I wasnt talking about Nfesting Mab(as in, Im not sure its possible to Nfest that Queen), I was talking about killing her.
Disrupting Winter's chain of command and leaving them leaderless or with a newbie in the top job. Creating a further opening for Nemesis and its allies to act.

It declined to take the shot. Which makes me wonder
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Mab isn't a pushover, and she has fought at the gates before. Being able to survive Outsiders at their most obvious implies that the stealth boosts of Nemesis probably aren't enough to be the deciding factor here.


uju32 said:
They wouldnt be a threat if you could sense said empowerment while the agent here to murk you is a mile off.
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That isn't what makes it a threat in the first place, not really.

Nemesis's ability to kill is secondary to its ability to disrupt and degrade the people and institutions that are guarding reality. Stirring up wars, taking advantage of vulnerable moments, sowing paranoia and distrust between allies, that kind of thing.

Almost all of its plans are based on getting things already in reality to work against each other instead of trying to do something more direct.
 
Nemesis certainly doesn't have the ability to abaritrly empower hosts however it wants well hiding the changes. That is just stupid and would mean it had no need to infiltrate. What it almost certainly can do is use it's vast knowledge to help hosts take full and complete advantage of any powers they already have.

Vampires get higher level disciplines. Humans learn kung fu. Wizard learn dangerous spells.

Nemesis and the Denarians seem to mostly be the same type of threat.
 
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fictionfan said:
Nemesis certainly doesn't have the ability to abaritrly empower hosts however it wants well hiding the changes. That is just stupid and would mean it had no need to infiltrate. What it almost certainly can do is use it's vast knowledge to help hosts take full and complete advantage of any powers they already have.

Vampires get higher level disciplines. Humans learn kung fu. Wizard learn dangerous spells.

Nemesis and the Denarians seem to mostly be the same type of threat.
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Humans can also learn black magic, that is more up Nemesis alley than the kung fu. Worth keeping in mind everyone is at least a bit of a talent and while many of those abilities are too weak or specialized to make use of even in a human lifespan HWWB does not have to care about that as he hot houses it to fruition

Edit: Good night guys.
 
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[X] Find and speak to Katherine

It's possible that just by speaking the names of the nemesis hosts to Michael we have sabotaged them. Because logically speaking nemesis kind of has to be able to hide itself from the White God as well or the plot doesn't work. Especially with Knights actions directly helping it without them so much as getting a gut feeling.

Letting the existence of Nemesis continue is very anti free will.
 
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Arc 11 Post 7: Snake of a Different Coat
  • Threadmarks
    • Snake of a Different Coat ​

    3rd of January 2007 A.D.

    Much to your surprise Katherine Campbell has not fallen off the edge of the world as far as official records are concerned. A quick search is enough to discover she is now the head of an environmental NGO called Green Tomorrows, which at least according to its website is working towards 'a sustainable future and a circular economy'. It even got some grant money from the government. Dad recognizes some of the affiliates as being fronts for Summer Court interests, so at least at first glance it looks like she hasn't made the Choice at all. While they might play at it from time to time a full blooded faerie would find functioning in mortal society long term difficult to say the least between the demands of their nature and the presence of iron. There is a lot of iron in New York City...

    "So much for dealing with this on a weekday," you mutter under your breath. "I could go along I guess, pass by water... I don't think taking the Ways would be a good idea."

    Lash, who had been looking over your shoulder at Clippy for the information all the while shakes her head in disbelief. "Why do you care if it's a weekday? Why on Earth are you still in school?" When you give her a dirty look for asking that with Dad right there she just rolls her eyes. "You clearly do not need either the education they are imparting or an institutional babysitter. Hell if you drop out it will make a better story for the newspapers when you 'invent' holographic technology, powered exoskeletons and rail guns."

    "I think you mean tabloids," you snipe back.

    There is an idea though. You decide to check for any articles about Katherine in the papers. Looks like she had been arrested following a 'wild party in Manhattan' and investigated, but not convicted on drug charges. September Third... that's the date of Bacchanalia, the festival that had given modern parlance a word for indulgence and debauchery. Fortunately the aftermath was lurid enough that there are plenty of pictures among them a trio of live snakes and a large gold plated egg that had been smeared with something red. A few of the outlets claim it was blood, though the NYPD later clarified that it was in fact red wine.

    "Go back to the egg thing," Tiffany says, to you or Clippy you are not sure. "That's not just Dyonisian, it is Orphic, the primordial Egg from which Necessity is said to be born in the form of a serpent, but there aren't supposed to be two snakes, well not unless they are worshiping Aphrodite Urania, but I do not think all the drink and merry-making is celestial love. Wait, one of the snakes is white and the other is black. What was the white one?

    "An albino King Brown Snake," you report, curious to see where this is going.

    She nods, unsurprised. "Those eat other snakes, it certainly looks big enough to do it compared to the other one. Orphism is about rebirth but not through consumption. Someone's been rewriting sacred rites to their own use again," her voice takes on an almost singsong quality. "Naughty little trespasser. It brought the World Eater into this, Nidhogg, Apophis, take your pick. My guess is that instead of freeing the celebrant of gross material life though symbolic death this rite was probably about freeing the world thorough destruction, a way to call things that seek to bring down the walls of reality. It's... wrapping new names around old horrors to make up for those that have been consigned to forgetfulness. Of course it would not pull things through, not yet, it takes more than a drunken frat party to bring forth even the least of Outsiders. But if you have someone of deep faith and tainted insights involved you would get a sign or two... transubstantiation is a favorite one since it fits so well with pervasive Christian beliefs of what a miracle is, wine into blood. As the power of the rite fades it turns back into wine no harm, no foul as far as the mortal authorities are concerned."

    "Except now everyone at that party knows something is out there," you finish. "Casting seeds far and wide." You pause. "What did you mean about old names being forgotten?"

    "Oh, you don't know?" Lash stops. "Technically it is going to upset an organization broadly opposed to the our common enemies if say anything more. Personally I think it is going to do more good than harm for me to explain since you might remember something out of the long dark of ages and speak it too loudly otherwise, but the choice is yours."

    "Who... what organization?" you ask eagerly.

    "That is part of the thing that would upset them to be spread around," Lash says, a grimace sitting ill on her beautiful face.

    You glance at your dad, but he only shakes his head looking worried.

    What do you say?

    [] Yes you want to know the secret Lash knows, though not in a Starbucks

    [] No, it does not seem relevant to the matter at hand, go to New York to continue the investigation into Katherine (Willpower roll DC 8 required)
    -[] Rendered Villain Dispersal, alone
    -[] Risk the Ways

    [] Write in

    OOC: So you know how the Oblivion War is a thing, well the other side gets to play as well.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • [X] Plan Following the Urge
    -[X] Yes you want to know the secret Lash knows, though not in a Starbucks
    --[X] If certain forces are listening, let the words be spoken where they cannot be easily heard. Hear the revelation inside your kingdom
    --[X] And you want to be prepared to receive the knowledge. Use occult excellency, BSM, and, if you can, CCC to process the words Lash speaks
    -[X] Crown uses
    --[X] Use current Starbucks scene as a focus to learn membership list of the organization that Lash is speaking about
    --[X] Use the recording of what Lash speaks about inside our kingdom as a crown focus to learn the list of all traitors to the organization she speaks about.
    --[X] Then destroy the recordings beyond any hope of reconstruction

    So, do this inside our kingdom so we are not heard, use excellencies and difficulty adjusters to understand what she says, use the recordings as a focus for maximum Intel (anyone got any better idea on what to ask about?).

    On the right - I am actually surprised that no one has commented about how Molly's palace inside her soul is resting in the jaws of twin snake-like Dragons, one of them black, and another light, emerging from an egg. I think we might get a chance to subvert the outsider culture to worship us instead. We fit the imagery and a lot of mythos. And repurposing it fits our redemption paradigm.
     
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    This was going to happen at some point. Though I thought we were already aware of who Lara works with but thinking back I don't think Molly was actually told at most Lara referenced them. Man that's so weird considering we've dealt with a Nemesis shard and a Walker already not to mention killed some unnamed Outsiders with Micheal and that other Council Wizard who's name I can't recall rn.

    [X] Plan Following the Urge
     
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    [X] No, you don't have to tell me
    -[X] Use the crown on the situation to get the answer so it won't be Lash's fault.
    -[X] Occult excellency as necessary

    Is that fine? :p
     
    Haha, as if we would turn down a chance to gain this knowledge in an IC manner.

    [X] Yog
     
    DragonParadox said:
    Snake of a Different Coat​
    3rd of January 2007 A.D.
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    COMMENTARY
    I have to wonder what happened to Katherine's sibling; two of them survived the Rawhead attack, but Katherine is the only one who is popping up.

    Oblivion War shit. Most definitely our business. Especially since both Thomas and Lara Raith are undercover Venatori.
    Well that would certainly light a fire under Titania's ass; she's old enough to remember the Titans, and presumably wants none of that shit back here.

    Not that there's a need to ask. Molly's Urge is Curiosity, after all.


    DragonParadox said:
    Lash does not seem to care if she is known to have told you, she is just asking you if you want to know.
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    Ah.
    If Lash cared, I would have said Molly should burn the scene as a focus to use the Crown to find out, then reply "Well, I know now." Just as a minor flex.

    Worth noting that if we write those names down anywhere, there's an elevated chance that Katherine runs into a True Venator cleanup squad. Oblivion War aftermath is one of those situations which is probably a use case for the Ancient Sorcery spell Corrupted Words or the charm Night Swallows Secrets.


    [X]Yog
     
    DragonParadox said:
    "Someone with a strong moral center that would carry over even beyond the Choice, with reasons to hate the Winter Court," you muse. "Certainly someone It would find useful, but there has to be more to it than that, the specifically faked Denarian activity to draw a response."

    "Create attachment, use it against you later, use her as a contact with the Holy Order perhaps that seems less likely, the inquisition is untrusting of fey no matter how fair," Tiffany mutters. "Or they were just testing if they could fake signs of the Fallen well enough to draw a Knight and the girl was a bonus."

    "A bonus..." At first you think dad was going to chastise her for being so cold about this, but his mind is elsewhere. "I felt something around the cabin, at the threshold, not fey glamor but faith entrusted with the care of the home. That's... I'd never encountered it so strongly in one of faerie blood."
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    Well, at the very least, Uriel must not have been happy at all about Nemesis managing to trick him into sending knights and now he knows who his summer hosts are.

    DragonParadox said:
    She nods, unsurprised. "Those eat other snakes, it certainly looks big enough to do it compared to the other one. Orphism is about rebirth but not through consumption. Someone's been rewriting sacred rites to their own use again," her voice takes on an almost singsong quality. "Naughty little trespasser. It brought the World Eater into this, Nidhogg, Apophis, take your pick. My guess is that instead of freeing the celebrant of gross material life though symbolic death this rite was probably about freeing the world thorough destruction, a way to call things that seek to bring down the walls of reality. It's... wrapping new names around old horrors to make up for those that have been consigned to forgetfulness. Of course it would not pull things through, not yet, it takes more than a drunken frat party to bring forth even the least of Outsiders. But if you have someone of deep faith and tainted insights involved you would get a sign or two... transubstantiation is a favorite one since it fits so well with pervasive Christian beliefs of what a miracle is, wine into blood. As the power of the rite fades it turns back into wine no harm, no foul as far as the mortal authorities are concerned."
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    And now the Archive won't be any fun with these moves either. If we can get her help, and I really think we can, we'll have another bridge to convince Titania.

    [X] Yog
     
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