Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

Winged One · Nov 19, 2023

Baughn said:
On a potentially unrelated note, I'm not going to warn you if you vote for something that would harm or kill a character, except if one of the people making the decision—or otherwise present, and able to intervene—would be able to tell that it isn't a good idea. Noting this down in advance, just in case.

Hm. Is Amu's dad going to refuse us if we attempt Scoop and Run? Is the part of Amu that Dia became able to tell when something's not fixed properly?

Baughn said:
I'll be treating that as an extended roll with a target of three, for stabilisation. Crafting, essentially; Amu needs to get all the significant blood vessels sealed up, and resolve any other significant damage. That is to say, she'll keep rolling until she has three successes, and however long that takes is how long it takes.

What's the roll interval(actually, I think I forgot the system term for how long each roll in an extended roll takes), and does Amu know how many attempts she has before Saaya dies?

Alright, Amu's Wits+Medicine+Biokinesis+Dia comes out to 4 if we're rolling with no untrained ability penalty, so on average it'll take us 2 rolls to stabilize and another 1 to get to the point that Amu thinks is healed.

Baughn · Nov 19, 2023

Winged One said:
Hm. Is Amu's dad going to refuse us if we attempt Scoop and Run? Is the part of Amu that Dia became able to tell when something's not fixed properly?

Very unlikely, and theoretically yes but not practically. Amu can't be Su *and* Dia, at least under normal circumstances, plus Dia is tapped out for now.

Winged One said:
What's the roll interval(actually, I think I forgot the system term for how long each roll in an extended roll takes), and does Amu know how many attempts she has before Saaya dies?

Saaya isn't going to die. As for the roll interval: Six seconds, for psionic healing of this sort. It's slapdash and essentially only converts lethal damage into nonlethal, but that's already pretty good for combat time.

There are approximately half a dozen conditions under which it wouldn't work. You've hit none of them.

Arguably you can treat it like repeated use of a charm.

Winged One said:
Alright, Amu's Wits+Medicine+Biokinesis+Dia comes out to 4 if we're rolling with no untrained ability penalty, so on average it'll take us 2 rolls to stabilize and another 1 to get to the point that Amu thinks is healed.

In principle you can add willpower to that, at one per roll, but she'd be nastily exhausted afterwards. Or two, if you want her to completely collapse.

You would in fact incur a 1 dice untrained penalty.

-and yes, there are uses of biokinesis where you wouldn't. For instance, making cookies.

Quine · Nov 19, 2023

Baughn said:
Some people are considering splitting Saaya's treatment up:

I'll be treating that as an extended roll with a target of three, for stabilisation. Crafting, essentially; Amu needs to get all the significant blood vessels sealed up, and resolve any other significant damage. That is to say, she'll keep rolling until she has three successes, and however long that takes is how long it takes.

For what she described as "healing" (which definitely isn't, but would certainly give Saaya a good head start on that), she'll need five successes.

Sounds like we need a stunt, then. (Stunts do work for this, right?)

Baughn said:
Very unlikely, and theoretically yes but not practically. Amu can't be Su *and* Dia, at least under normal circumstances, plus Dia is tapped out for now.

I suppose the Dia-based stunt ideas aren't going to work, then.

Baughn said:
Saaya isn't going to die. As for the roll interval: Six seconds, for psionic healing of this sort. It's slapdash and essentially only converts lethal damage into nonlethal, but that's already pretty good for combat time.

By the standards of any conventional medicine, that's incredible. I wonder how it stacks up to how SMT healing spells will work here, though.

Spending an extra 6-ish seconds to go from what Amu thinks of as "stable" to what Amu thinks of as "healed" is a lot quicker than I expected. It's enough time for the situation to meaningfully change - for example, enough time for the demon to kill someone - but still far quicker than I expected.

Baughn · Nov 19, 2023

Quine said:
Sounds like we need a stunt, then. (Stunts do work for this, right?)

If you can think of a good one, certainly. (Of course it'll only apply once.)

Quine said:
By the standards of any conventional medicine, that's incredible. I wonder how it stacks up to how SMT healing spells will work here, though.

Spending an extra 6-ish seconds to go from what Amu thinks of as "stable" to what Amu thinks of as "healed" is a lot quicker than I expected. It's enough time for the situation to meaningfully change - for example, enough time for the demon to kill someone - but still far quicker than I expected.

It's roughly the difference between "Saaya is bleeding a lot, coughing up blood and unable to stand", "Saaya is stable but still horribly bruised, with a lot of internal damage", and "Saaya has no damage I'm able to recognise as such and/or fix."

Just to triple-repeat that: She sure as hell will not be in good health afterwards, but fixing all the apparent, structural damage still gives her a far better starting point.

Winged One · Nov 19, 2023

Baughn said:
You would in fact incur a 1 dice untrained penalty.

Oof, I don't remember the botch odds on a dice pool of 3, but I'm pretty sure they're higher than I'm comfortable with.

Quine · Nov 19, 2023

Winged One said:
Oof, I don't remember the botch odds on a dice pool of 3, but I'm pretty sure they're higher than I'm comfortable with.

9.1%. With the Su bonus and biokinesis boosted to 2, we'd have a dice pool of 4 after the penalty, which takes the botch odds down to 6.71%. (Botch odds on a pool of N dice are 0.6^N * (1 - (5/6)^N). This comes from 0.6^N for the probability of rolling nothing higher than a 6, and 1-(5/6)^N for the probability of rolling at least one 1 given all rolls were less than 7.)

Vanguard_D · Nov 19, 2023

[X] Plan Scoop and Run

PistachioCookies · Nov 19, 2023

Quine said:
I suppose the Dia-based stunt ideas aren't going to work, then.

I can think of a Su-based one, that compares the chemical complexity of organic honey to the chemical complexity of human blood, without actually using the words "chemical complexity" due to having zero actual knowledge of Medicine.

It would be a mixture of metaphor involving honey being the lifeblood of bees, keeping them alive through winter and assumed background knowledge of its healing properties being impossible to replicate with fake honey made of corn syrup and sugar, boosted by Su's innate knowledge of honey's healing properties in the first place. Amu would be using Remake Honey on her and visualizing it either becoming more blood and lung tissue for Saaya, or "feeding" the existing tissue to make it regrow and fill any holes.

Not sure it would be worth 2 dice, but I'd think it'd be worth 1.

Quine said:
So putting those together, the "Scoop and Run" plan should look like

This comes with its own drawbacks.

A public hospital might take the Humpty Lock off Saaya when examining her, which could be problematic. Moreover, Manticore is still out there and if they are a government conspiracy may well have easy access to public hospitals and hospital records. Their own experiments might have been conducted in some entirely isolated private medical facility... or they might just have been conducted in a public one, just in a secure part sealed off from the public. I do not feel safe sending our Humpty Lock away from Amu to sit in an unguarded location.

Tsumugu Hinamori is also there for a reason. If it was urgent, sending him all the way to a public hospital might not be a good idea, assuming he doesn't just refuse to go there outright, without first doing what he came here for.

Simon. Andersen · Nov 19, 2023

[X] Plan Scoop and Run

I don't had any other idea, and there really isn't any good options in this crise.

Winged One · Nov 19, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
I can think of a Su-based one, that compares the chemical complexity of organic honey to the chemical complexity of human blood, without actually using the words "chemical complexity" due to having zero actual knowledge of Medicine.

It would be a mixture of metaphor involving honey being the lifeblood of bees, keeping them alive through winter and assumed background knowledge of its healing properties being impossible to replicate with fake honey made of corn syrup and sugar, boosted by Su's innate knowledge of honey's healing properties in the first place. Amu would be using Remake Honey on her and visualizing it either becoming more blood and lung tissue for Saaya, or "feeding" the existing tissue to make it regrow and fill any holes.

Not sure it would be worth 2 dice, but I'd think it'd be worth 1.

Write it out, then. I don't seem to be getting it right when I try making votes myself...

PistachioCookies · Nov 19, 2023

Yeah, no, I really don't like the idea of public hospital. Keeping Tsumugu busy is a good idea, but not telling him to bring her to a public hospital. Too much risk of them trying to remove the Humpty Lock.

Based on the timeframes given, I don't feel "fully healing" Saaya is going to be much worse than Stabilizing anyway. Kukai has a plan currently in the works to try and fight the thing and by Amu's estimate, Tadase can probably hold out for at least 3-4 minutes (just not as long as 5). We can afford to spend 6-12 extra seconds to do a "full" healing and avoid the immediate need for hospital.

Biokinesis probably isn't the worst spend of our XP either, since we're dealing with the Scavengers who are involved with drugs in some way and there is no way we are getting Medicine trained up enough in time to deal with any issues related to the drugs they may have.

I'm going to vote for transforming, full healing, passing Saaya to Tsumugu and rejoining the fight. Stunted for the healing using transformation + Remake Honey + mental visualization based on past experiences. The transformation may cost 1 WP, but we're gearing up a fight anyway, so it's got to happen at some point, might as well get some benefit out of it for the healing (I assume the bonuses we get from transforming are separate and stack with the guaranteed +1 in healing from Su).

[X] Plan: Glue Saaya Back With Honey
- [X] Upgrade Biokinesis: Spend 2 XP.
- [X] Heal Saaya fully.
- [X] Transform and use Remake Honey on Saaya.
-- [X] The mental picture of Saaya that you hold is one torn apart, damaged and missing bits. Once upon a time, there had been another picture of someone cherished that you had seen torn, damaged and missing bits - a precious photograph of your mother that your father had tucked away in an old magazine, accidentally donated. When you'd found it again, you and Yoru had fought bitterly over it, leaving in tatters by the end. But Amulet Clover had managed to fill the gaps, mend the holes. Honey heals, honey revitalizes. Honey keeps bees alive throughout winter. Like the blood running through a person's veins, no cheap fake made of corn syrup can compare to the true thing - and Su makes the best honey of them all. Imagining Remake Honey's life-giving fluid spreading throughout the fraying edges and damaged gaps you see in your image of Saaya, you envision the same mending process taking place here and now, as you had done with that paper photograph of your mother before. It may not have been your real mother then, but paper is the flesh of trees and that paper had carried her spirit within in. Now, as before, you seek to heal a flesh that likewise carries within it the spirit of someone you refuse to see die.
- [X] Carry Saaya to Tsumugu and tell him to keep her safe and make sure nobody removes the Lock.
- [X] Rejoin Kukai and Nadeshiko to fight.

Simon. Andersen · Nov 19, 2023

[X] Plan: Glue Saaya Back With Honey

Winged One · Nov 19, 2023

[X] Plan: Glue Saaya Back With Honey

DarkN0va · Nov 19, 2023

[X] Plan: Glue Saaya Back With Honey

waito_x · Nov 19, 2023

[X] Plan Scoop and Run

Quine · Nov 19, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
This comes with its own drawbacks.

A public hospital might take the Humpty Lock off Saaya when examining her, which could be problematic. Moreover, Manticore is still out there and if they are a government conspiracy may well have easy access to public hospitals and hospital records. Their own experiments might have been conducted in some entirely isolated private medical facility... or they might just have been conducted in a public one, just in a secure part sealed off from the public. I do not feel safe sending our Humpty Lock away from Amu to sit in an unguarded location.

Pretty much agreed, although I suppose posting the fixed "Scoop and Run" vote as a vote may have given a different impression - that was just the easiest way to make sure other people could vote for it properly.

PistachioCookies said:
(I assume the bonuses we get from transforming are separate and stack with the guaranteed +1 in healing from Su)

I don't think so. Let's check. @Baughn?

Baughn · Nov 19, 2023

Quine said:
I don't think so. Let's check. @Baughn?

The transformation itself is a use of illusion, and does the things illusion does, mostly to do with survivability. You get a couple of perks from it - cold and heat resistance (though it's fall right now), a slight increase in general durability (even though it covers less skin—don't question it), and of course the all important magical girl look, including "attacks" such as Remake Honey.

Really though, it's the same thing as simply pulling one of your charas up front. It costs 1WP to do so; it still costs 1WP to also transform, because the change in appearance isn't the part that costs willpower; it's the mental change required in order to do so.

You could in fact pull off the appearance without paying any willpower toll. Just, then it would be a pure visual illusion.

If you recall, you paid 1WP for Dia's appearance. You'd pay 1 more to switch over to Su, but get a point of biokinesis out of it, as well as access to her transformation mode if you want it. For direct combat, Ran would be best.

You're not going to run out, but I suspect Amu will be sleeping like a log tonight.

Quickshot0 · Nov 19, 2023

I'll note that the 3-4 minute time frame Amu gives Tadase, is based on the assumption that nothing else goes wrong. You know, like the building coming down on him, which could happen considering parts already gave way. So if his part of the building goes, it's also possible he'd only have say a minute... or if another monster happened to come out and attack him, that too would be a problem.

So in that sense one can wonder if Tadase shouldn't need an evac sooner rather then later.

Basically I'm worried the fight will drag out long enough that something happens to Tadase who is left with possibly no support at all. I suppose one could join the fight and ask some one else to go get him as well though.

Quine · Nov 19, 2023

Baughn said:
The transformation itself is a use of illusion, and does the things illusion does, mostly to do with survivability. You get a couple of perks from it - cold and heat resistance (though it's fall right now), a slight increase in general durability (even though it covers less skin—don't question it), and of course the all important magical girl look, including "attacks" such as Remake Honey.

Really though, it's the same thing as simply pulling one of your charas up front. It costs 1WP to do so; it still costs 1WP to also transform, because the change in appearance isn't the part that costs willpower; it's the mental change required in order to do so.

If you recall, you paid 1WP for Dia's appearance. You'd pay 1 more to switch over to Su, but get a point of biokinesis out of it, as well as access to her transformation mode if you want it. For direct combat, Ran would be best.

You're not going to run out, but I suspect Amu will be sleeping like a log tonight.

So, to make sure I'm reading that right, transforming with Su does not boost biokinesis any more than just activating the Su mindstate, right?

Also, what did we spend the other point of WP on in 1.8? Was that the contested psionics cost?

Baughn · Nov 19, 2023

Quine said:
So, to make sure I'm reading that right, transforming with Su does not boost biokinesis any more than just activating the Su mindstate, right?

Also, what did we spend the other point of WP on in 1.8? Was that the contested psionics cost?

That's correct. Though it should make stunts easier. Lean into the magical girl nonsense, regardless of Amu's complaints!

Activating the Humpty Lock also costs willpower. Normally the benefits you get from that overlap with and supersede those from the Chara, so you'd only pay 1 for the combination, but Saaya was wearing it at the time… though fundamentally it's because the plan asked her to take every possible measure regardless of cost, and you paid for the superior outcome.

Give me an hour or two, I'll add all this to the character sheet.

PistachioCookies · Nov 19, 2023

Quickshot0 said:
Basically I'm worried the fight will drag out long enough that something happens to Tadase who is left with possibly no support at all. I suppose one could join the fight and ask some one else to go get him as well though.

There doesn't seem to be much we could achieve by abandoning the current fight to run over to Tadase. The possibility of something else coming out is only a "maybe" and if it doesn't, we don't have any currently known way to help him with the rift. We'd basically be running to him, only to call Lulu or something.

The immediate fight is something that we can actually help with, that we are likely to end faster than if we leave it purely to Kukai and Nadeshiko. We still won't have any known way to help with the rift even if we beat it before Tadase runs out of juice, but at least we know for sure there won't also be an angry bird-man-thing waiting outside when we have to haul his exhausted royal rear out of the building.

And if we take too long, Kukai and Nadeshiko probably wouldn't have done it any faster alone - meaning that unless we somehow came up with a miracle solution that allows Tadase to close the rift sooner, we'd just be running away with him from the rift, back to fight the demon anyway.

Baughn said:
You'd pay 1 more to switch over to Su, but get a point of biokinesis out of it, as well as access to her transformation mode if you want it. For direct combat, Ran would be best.

I thought you previously mentioned the transformation mode was a combination of both Ran and Su?

Baughn said:
Given that she isn't, what you get is something that amounts to all three others simultaneously. However, Amu's Dia side isn't all that useful in a fight, and you didn't pick the right boon to get any idea why. In effect she's still mostly asleep, and can't be woken up quickly.

So the transformation mode chiefly brings the Ran and Su facets to the forefront. Those are also the two most useful in a fight, or in the aftermath.

So let me just get this straight: under the current rules, Amu DOES still have individual transformations for each Chara, that take 1 WP. And if she's already transformed, she takes 1 WP to switch to another one on the fly. If Miki is there, in addition to Spade, she can now also do a knock-off Amulet Fortune that doesn't usually have Dia in it, also for 1 WP.

If she's already "pulled one of the charas up front" to the forefront of her mind, untransformed, that isn't what she wants to transform to, she has to spend 2 WP to transform to the other.

Which chara does Amu have at the front of her mind currently? The end of the chapter would indicate Su, but you said Dia got awoken at some point. Is it Dia or Su?

Quickshot0 · Nov 19, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
There doesn't seem to be much we could achieve by abandoning the current fight to run over to Tadase. The possibility of something else coming out is only a "maybe" and if it doesn't, we don't have any currently known way to help him with the rift. We'd basically be running to him, only to call Lulu or something.

The immediate fight is something that we can actually help with, that we are likely to end faster than if we leave it purely to Kukai and Nadeshiko. We still won't have any known way to help with the rift even if we beat it before Tadase runs out of juice, but at least we know for sure there won't also be an angry bird-man-thing waiting outside when we have to haul his exhausted royal rear out of the building.

You seem to misunderstand my concern here, I'm not thinking about helping to keep the rift down though maybe some one could help with that. (Does anyone think there are particular benefits to doing this?)

Rather I'm concerned Tadase might die. As in, they're putting all their defensive power in to blocking the rift expansion, leaving possibly little to nothing for themselves. All while standing in a crumbling building that already has parts falling apart. As such I kind of wanted to evacuate him, so he doesn't die to random collapse. Does it even matter as much if the building gets wrecked more by the rift now anyway? Presumably everyone else is evacuated now... at least I'd hope so.

Still possibly some one else like Rima or so could help him out instead, it doesn't have to be Amu perse in that sense I guess.

Baughn · Nov 19, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
I thought you previously mentioned the transformation mode was a combination of both Ran and Su?

You… are correct. Yeah, definitely need to write this down before I end up writing something based on my apparently goldfish-like memory.

There's no cost for "switching" from Su to Ran, because you're not doing any such thing. Okay. This time I'm consulting my notes:

- Each Chara has a specific field of "interest", and you can only hold one "at the front" of your mind at any one time.

- Calling up _any_ of them costs willpower. Switching between them normally does not. Transforming in itself does not cost anything, but has the dependency of having the charas sufficiently awake. The cost for that is basically… it's visible.

- Any willpower payment described here is good for one scene. No more, no less.

- Dia is special; calling her up costs another point of willpower, and can only be done once per month at most, ideally less.

- Miki isn't here, but isn't otherwise currently special.

- The charas each boost some subset of your abilities, but it's thematic, not mechanical. Su's +1 to biokinesis only applies while trying to make food or fix people. (These are two different themes. Each also applies boosts in other places, as appropriate.)

- The Humpty Lock, if available, smooths out everything. Its +1 to everything boost overlaps, so it's just +1, period. It also cancels the WP cost for using a Chara at all, though not for the transformation mode, which is where my confusion was coming from. I spent a year working the numbers on the assumption you wouldn't give it away in the first arc.

- Additionally, with the lock you would have access to the fusion mode, which Amu now uses by default. Without it, she needs to swap back and forth mentally. Which she can do quickly enough that this is mostly just a narrative thing, without mechanical consequences.

I … think that should be accurate, but please poke me if I missed any other inconsistencies.

PistachioCookies said:
Which chara does Amu have at the front of her mind currently? The end of the chapter would indicate Su, but you said Dia got awoken at some point. Is it Dia or Su?

It's going to be Su, except in the unlikely circumstance you vote to ignore Saaya and leave. Dia already spent her battery.

PistachioCookies · Nov 19, 2023

Baughn said:
There's no cost for "switching" from Su to Ran, because you're not doing any such thing. Okay. This time I'm consulting my notes:

OK, so my revised takeaway from that now is:

Amu can "pre-load" all nearby Charas to the front of her mind, as a sort of invisible pre-transformation. If Dia is included, this costs 2 WP, otherwise it costs 1 WP and Charas stay pre-loaded for 1 scene.
Dia can only be pre-loaded once a month.
Pre-loaded Charas give you a +1 boost to actions (not skills) they specialize in. She can swap between the specialties of all pre-loaded Charas at no cost.
If Amu has pre-loaded her Charas, transformation costs no WP. Otherwise, transforming costs 1 WP, as it implicitly includes pre-loading the nearby Chara(s) necessary to transform.
Transforming gives an additional boost to actions reliant on resisting cold, heat and impacts (possibly more depending on what "durability" entails) and changes her appearance.
It also gives her access to stunt actions using her canonical special attacks (with implicit guarantee that those stunts will be worth at least 1 dice) and presumably any joint attacks that rely on those stunts (i.e. Platinum Heart Royale with Tadase).
If Amu has the Humpty Lock, it waives the cost of pre-loading... at the expense of Amu needing to pay 1 WP to use the Lock instead.

Now here's a couple of questions:

If a Chara is not nearby when Amu pre-transforms/pre-loads the rest (i.e. Miki), are they automatically included in the pre-load when they come nearby or does it cost more WP to include them in the pre-load?
Amu has 1 dot in Illusion naturally, without the Humpty Lock. Do implements conjured when transforming still end up tangible, or would, say, the Heart Rod just pass right through the enemy if she tried to use it since she only has 1 dot without the Lock? Or does transforming give the necessary boost to Illusion to make it tangible? And if so, does this boost only apply to implements conjured for stunts while transformed, or apply to anything that might use Illusion?
Is Amu currently capable of conjuring a working gas stove lighter when transformed, using Su/Amulet Clover's culinary specialization?

To confirm: Since Amu currently already has Su pre-loaded, does transforming cost no WP?

Baughn · Nov 19, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
OK, so my revised takeaway from that now is:

Accurate. Also, I may steal some of your wording.

PistachioCookies said:
If a Chara is not nearby when Amu pre-transforms/pre-loads the rest (i.e. Miki), are they automatically included in the pre-load when they come nearby or does it cost more WP to include them in the pre-load?

At the moment, there's no extra cost. This is likely to change as Miki goes through her character arc.

PistachioCookies said:
Amu has 1 dot in Illusion naturally, without the Humpty Lock. Do implements conjured when transforming still end up tangible, or would, say, the Heart Rod just pass right through the enemy if she tried to use it since she only has 1 dot without the Lock? Or does transforming give the necessary boost to Illusion to make it tangible? And if so, does this boost only apply to implements conjured for stunts while transformed, or apply to anything that might use Illusion?

Tactile illusions require 2 dots minimum. To make them, Amu needs to somehow acquire that; she can do so through the Humpty Lock, or by borrowing a Chara for which it's in-theme. For her own, it's the magical girl transformation that's the theme; Amu gets +1 in illusion because that's required to make the transformation work, but if she doesn't transform then it isn't required, and therefore won't be accessible. If you feel this sounds like the underlying system is too clever for Amu's own good, you aren't far wrong.

A different chara, such as for instance one specifically focused on illusions, might allow that without the transformation. However, the only non-Amu charas she can safely borrow are Eru and Iru, and even then it costs 2WP instead of 1. Neither of them actually have this ability, so it's a moot point.

PistachioCookies said:
Is Amu currently capable of conjuring a working gas stove lighter when transformed, using Su/Amulet Clover's culinary specialization?

Cute. Hmm.

Yes. Yes she can.

PistachioCookies said:
To confirm: Since Amu currently already has Su pre-loaded, does transforming cost no WP?

Strictly speaking she's in the middle of calling her up right now, but if we assume she does, then the additional transformation would cost no extra WP. Yes.

I never wrote any rules for what happens if you switch from Dia to some other chara; calling up Dia costs extra WP, but apparently I was assuming you'd be doing it while already in a transformation, as a sort of escalation... which isn't what happened this time. But going back to the underlying fluff, what's actually costing her is the stress of dragging up a persona at all, so-

No cost for switching from Dia to Su.

Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

Not the Simurgh

Healing-type writer

Healing-type writer

Not the Simurgh

Not the Simurgh

Not the Simurgh

The Multiversal Gamer

Healing-type writer

Healing-type writer

Healing-type writer

Healing-type writer