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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
[X]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."
 
Some relevant bits from Uriel if we bring stuff he said into this discussion:

Arc 9 Post 4:
"Therein lies the flaw in the flaw, the answer to your question Margret and what the Fallen have most likely not contemplated and yet which may be. Mortal minds are not empty parchment upon which blackened signets are pressed. The law of reciprocity holds, as the shadow speaks so may it be spoken to, as it tempts so may it be tempted. As for what would happen if you were to free such a shade from the mortal whom they are meant to tempt I know not what would come to pass."
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Arc 9 Post 5:
"Some have fallen away from their purpose less than others.No one is truly irredeemable save that one who thinks himself so and will not be swayed." There is just a moment hesitation there, an inflection even more flat than usually and in dark eyes a light of sorrow born. It is not hard to guess who he is thinking of, daunting yes, but not hard.
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fictionfan said:
I am accurately saying that Molly has been modifying Lash proto soul and giving implications that might stop Charity from thinking that we have incarnated a demon.

It also makes redemption a bit easier if Tiffany believes it.
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We made a body with a something like a Po soul in it. That Po soul was different in that it was a mechanical construct without the will, instincts, or typical features of a Po soul. It existed to facilitate connecting Lash to a body.

Lash herself is different than a typical Hun soul in that she's self contained; a sliver of an Angel and not a mortal fragment. She was a person before she had it, and the soul she got wasn't supposed to have any sort of will to interact with her.

These are, as far as I'm aware, established facts about what we did. The philosophical argument about differences in experience aside, I don't see how any of this translates to Molly having directly modified Lash the person in the manner you imply by saying we made a most of her soul.
 
[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one

Uh, guys. Crazy idea, but how about we don't give Charity an ulcher, okay?
 
Possible argument to convince Charity Lasciel doesn't fully deserve the title of Demon without soul metaphysics: Denarian Shadows are as mutable as humans are, and 2 years in Harry's brain is a lot of time for changes. This is the logical conclusion of the idea that the only people who are irredeemable are those who believe themselves so. A rogue shadow, choosing to turn against their progenitor.
 
BronzeTongue said:
We made a body with a something like a Po soul in it. That Po soul was different in that it was a mechanical construct without the will, instincts, or typical features of a Po soul. It existed to facilitate connecting Lash to a body.

Lash herself is different than a typical Hun soul in that she's self contained; a sliver of an Angel and not a mortal fragment. She was a person before she had it, and the soul she got wasn't supposed to have any sort of will to interact with her.

These are, as far as I'm aware, established facts about what we did. The philosophical argument about differences in experience aside, I don't see how any of this translates to Molly having directly modified Lash the person in the manner you imply by saying we made a most of her soul.
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From what DP has said, previously Lash was using Harry's Po soul to perform the metaphysical/psychological functions you need a Po soul for, but now she has one of her own.

If she needed to use Harry's back when she didn't have a body, then presumably that means she does actually need a Po soul in order to think/feel. That suggests it's not just an empty shell to wire her into a body, it provides her with some part of mind, just as it does for a human.

She wasn't previously self contained, she was an imprint on Harry's (Hun?) soul linked to his Po, that we carved off to make a newly independent entity formed from soul stuff that was originally part of Harry. We then took that new entity and grafted a synthetic Po soul to it and implanted it in a highly magical body.

As far as I can tell, Lash was essentially Harry having a very complete case of multiple personality disorder, with part of his soul artificially remoulded to form the secondary personality. We then did an operation like separating conjoined twins to split off that part of him.
 
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fictionfan said:
Lash was never self contained that is why she always needed a container.

Now she is self sustaining.
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Alratan said:
From what DP has said, previously Lash was using Harry's Po soul to perform the metaphysical/psychological functions you need a Po soul for, but now she has one of her own.

If she needed to use Harry's back when she didn't have a body, then presumably that means she does actually need a Po soul in order to think/feel. That suggests it's not just an empty shell to wire her into a body, it provides her with some part of mind, just as it does for a human.

She wasn't previously self contained, she was an imprint on Harry's (Hun?) soul linked to his Po, that we carved off to make a newly independent entity formed from soul stuff that was originally part of Harry. We then took that new entity and grafted a synthetic Po soul to it and implanted it in a highly magical body.

As far as I can tell, Lash was essentially Harry having a very complete case of multiple personality disorder, with part of his soul artificially remoulded to form the secondary personality. We then did an operation like separating conjoined twins to split off that part of him.
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Then why was she a person for the purposes of "anyone can be redeemed"? why did we make the argument she was to her when transplanting her?

Did she stop when we put her into a mirror, despite all signs showing her to be unchanged?


Your arguments functionally posit that we were wrong and she was right from the start. She wasn't a person, just an image pretending to be one, and this whole endeavor was a pointless exercise in self gratification.
 
BronzeTongue said:
She wasn't a person,
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This is opinion. Personhood is always opinion regardless of the nature of soul mechanics. Just like you can't get an ought from an is. A person is whoever other people decide is a person and can be completely arbitrary. The nature of souls doesn't change that.

After all we live in a world where by all evidence souls don't exist and yet we are people.
 
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[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
[X]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."
 
BronzeTongue said:
Then why was she a person for the purposes of "anyone can be redeemed"? why did we make the argument she was to her when transplanting her?

Did she stop when we put her into a mirror, despite all signs showing her to be unchanged?


Your arguments functionally posit that we were wrong and she was right from the start. She wasn't a person, just an image pretending to be one, and this whole endeavor was a pointless exercise in self gratification.
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Not at all. We just defined person very liberally, in a way that would, arguably, mean that the different identities of people with dissociative identity disorder* are each a person in their own right, but that's something we're fully at liberty to do.

The definition of what makes a person isn't something there's a strong philosophical consensus on.

* assuming it exists
 
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[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
[X]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."
 
[X] Write in - To the core of things - I don't think you understand what it means when I say I can make things mom. She was trapped, out of options, so I made a new path, something new, a first in all of time. What comes next... Well, that comes down to choice, to free will. I think this family knows more than most how important that is.

[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
 
[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
[X]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."

We'll have to keep her close. We can't count on divine providence right now, not for her due to her unique placement on the gameboard. Her position is debatable and there even being a debate gives the other side wiggle room. But we have people who are both capable and already have large enough targets on their asses that they don't have to fear additional danger.

We'll need more though. Little Nicky is sure as hell going to be coming and we just don't have the capacity to protect everything we need to protect even if we, personally, beef ourselves up enough to meet the man himself head on. If he can't win a straight fight he will cheat, picking at anything exposed in order to manufacture an opening.

Ultimately she is going to need to be a part of our defenses rather than just something to be protected. Hopefully she remembers enough.
 
I don't really see the point in going into detail. She's not likely to understand the metaphysics behind it and she might not even want to.
 
[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
[X]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."
 
[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
-[x][Stunt] "You know how I described Greater Akuma as souls with parts taken out and new parts put in? A ship of theseus. Well what the Yami kings do to twist and pervert I can use to make people whole. Maybe the process's original use back when the Hells were actually places of rehabilitation."
 
Later when it is found that the Yami kings can't duplicates this feat.

"That sounds like a Skill Issue"
 
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fictionfan said:
This is opinion. Personhood is always opinion regardless of the nature of soul mechanics. Just like you can't get an ought from an is. A person is whoever other people decide is a person and can be completely arbitrary. The nature of souls doesn't change that.

After all we live in a world where by all evidence souls don't exist and yet we are people.
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You turned around to make that point pretty sharply from your previous line of argument about us building her up as a new one.

To be honest this sounds like nonsense to me, with a ladle of "it's fuzzy" on top to distract from it.

Yes there is a grey area, but you've been making strong and specific claims about Molly's actions and what they mean that contradict what we know happened and then swapping the support out for your claims to fuzziness without actually changing them.

Even if the definition of personality/sapience is arguable at some level I don't think that specifically supports the claim that Molly made a majority of Lash's soul and that this constitutes gifting her personhood. Which is what it looks like you are writing in.

Alratan said:
Not at all. We just defined person very liberally, in a way that would, arguably, mean that the different identities of people with dissociative identity disorder* are each a person in their own right, but that's something we're fully at liberty to do.

The definition of what makes a person isn't something there's a strong philosophical consensus on.

* assuming it exists
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That never seemed like the implication anywhere to me. The WoG we got from DP referred to her as a sliver of an Angel even when she was in Harry's head.

The philosophy here is a lot less speculative when this is also a field of engineering.
 
BronzeTongue said:
You turned around to make that point pretty sharply from your previous line of argument about us building her up as a new one.

To be honest this sounds like nonsense to me, with a ladle of "it's fuzzy" on top to distract from it.

Yes there is a grey area, but you've been making strong and specific claims about Molly's actions and what they mean that contradict what we know happened and then swapping the support out for your claims to fuzziness without actually changing them.

Even if the definition of personality/sapience is arguable at some level I don't think that specifically supports the claim that Molly made a majority of Lash's soul and that this constitutes gifting her personhood. Which is what it looks like you are writing in.
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I actually edited the stunt halfway through the discussion when I realized that I was making the same mistake.
 
Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Nov 4, 2023 at 12:00 AM, finished with 69 posts and 23 votes.
  • [X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
    [X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
    [X]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."
    -[x][Stunt] "You know how I described Greater Akuma as souls with parts taken out and new parts put in? A ship of theseus. Well what the Yami kings do to twist and pervert I can use to make people whole. Maybe the process's original use back when the Hells were actually places of rehabilitation."
    [X] Write in - To the core of things - I don't think you understand what it means when I say I can make things mom. She was trapped, out of options, so I made a new path, something new, a first in all of time. What comes next... Well, that comes down to choice, to free will. I think this family knows more than most how important that is.
    -[x][Stunt] You take on a lecturing tone "The soul is more complicated than this, but for the layman view it is composed of two parts. The Po soul with animates the body and includes instincts and the Hun soul which holds higher thoughts..." You trail off "Actually you don't need a soul anatomy lesson. The important part is Tiffany was not created by Lashiel to be a complete soul more a parasite using it's host own drives and reasoning to tempt them. In a sense I incarnated her, but really I had to build most of her soul from the ground up. Not really any harder than making a god out of some anthropomorphic personification. Today is Tiffany's birthday."
    -[x][Stunt] "You know how I described Greater Akuma as souls with parts taken out and new parts put in? A ship of theseus. Well what the Yami kings do to twist and pervert I can use to make people whole. Maybe the process's original use back when the Hells were actually places of rehabilitation."
    -[X] Stunt:
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Oh because it is important to say: I was totally wrong about building in a weakness into the body. With the lore of flesh it would be stupid move.
 
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