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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Sorry this is late.
Yog said:
It models a god. A minor god, but a god. A spirit, if you are more inclined to call it that. It should be natively capable of magical manipulations. We get that through hedge magic merit to model it getting access to sorcery. This was discussed.
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It models a servitor spirit.
A fairly weak one at that, by World of Darkness standards; its a sturdy gaffling, but still a gaffling.
We're not talking a Jaggling-tier spirit like a Nexus Crawler or Nihilarch.

Being made of magic and magic stuff doesnt make you natively capable of magical manipulations.
Else HITMarks would be invincible.

Yog said:
I'll get back to you on that later.
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Fair.

Yog said:
Holden, from all looks, really disliked craft, yes. Yet his system still allows for it, and under it, you still can do some silly things.

And there's nothing about constructs being unable to attune splendors / prodigies in the rules. As long as you have access to some manner of power, you seemingly can attune them.
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He explicitly denied them the ability to attune by refusing to include any Arcana feature that allowed it.
There's a reason why fomor in WoD have the option to be designed with a power that gives them Gnosis so they can attune Wonders and Fetishes.

Yog said:
17 dice with 2 DC reduction was in the update before that.
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WoG IIRC is that she wasnt pushing yet.
Yog said:
You pulled this out of your ass. Entirely.
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Mab is queen and commander of the Court whose raison d'etre is defending reality against the rabid hordes who want to destroy it.
She literally fought a desperate military campaign to ascend to the position of Queen in this AU.

She has been doing the job of defending the Outer Gates for a thousand years.
Did you think she was specced for diplomacy?

Yog said:
You can attach multiple Arcana to the same keystone. Like our spirit binders do in-story. And have each Arcana attune one splendor.
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No you cant.
You dont get to defray costs of multiple Emanations by using the same expensive/emotionally significant keystone for all of them.
Its an apparent balance point.

Yog said:
You are underestimating exalted side of the story. Again.
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No, you are underestimating the rest of the setting.
Again.

Yog said:
That's wrong. You can stain living bone. Nothing I know of biology says it shouldn't.
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Thats fish bone.
Not human, not even mammalian. The tissues are different.

Yog said:
Tooth tattoos are a thing. A stupid thing, but a thing.
Edit: on bone disdoloration, there's also this. You can color bone at least yellow, green and black.
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I didnt even know tooth tattoos were a thing. TIL something new; thanks.

Nevertheless?
According to your link, they are either painted on decals(normal paint, with the duration thereof) or drilled in to the enamel with carving instruments.Neither are tattoos the way skin tattoos are.


Antibiotic mediated discoloration of bone is a thing.
Teeth, I think, is permanent, if used at the wrong part of developmental growth. Bone is temporary, as far as I can recall, because bone is continuously remodelled for the duration of your mortal life. Neither is a tattoo, or any organized form of art.

Bone has living cells within it, unlike enamel, and even healthy bone is constantly being remodelled.
There's a reason I said its implausible at best.
 
I feel that it's important to mention that every god in Exalted was a created being likely using the same methods Molly is using now.
 
DragonParadox said:
I don't think linear magic is the merits of other splats, pretty much everyone gets that in one form or another. Avatars are special in WoD, sorcery is not, just like how minor talents are all over the place in Dresdenverse and full wizards are rare.
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Artemis1992 said:
Hede-Magic is a minor splat though, those are generally open to other greater Splats.

For example an Exalt can never Awaken as a Mage, or shift as a Werewolf, but they can use Hedge Magic and they can use Kinfolk-Rites.Likewise a Werewolf or Mage can never become a Vampire and retain what he had before, but they can be Ghouled and profit (and suffer) from that.

Or any Mage can be Kinain, but never a full Changeling.
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Im sleepy, so this will be short.
But there's a reason why Arcana get to break the dice caps at chargen that no other splats get to. Noob mages, and even werewolves and vampires, dont get the legal option to come out of chargen with one or more Attributes at 9.

Its much the same thing with the Mage constructs that Holden drew inspiration from: the HITMarks and Victor clones and the like, some of whom can have starting stats as high as (Attribute)10 and Soak 20.
None of them get magick though.

I think the only ones I can recall who got magick are ATLAS Units getting 5-10 Rank 1 rotes, and they are explicitly made with an enslaved and brainwashed Mage/Magick-user as a central part of the weapon system.
I assume that in Dresden Files, the Fomor were using the talents they kidnapped for much the same thing.
 
uju32 said:
Im sleepy, so this will be short.
But there's a reason why Arcana get to break the dice caps at chargen that no other splats get to. Noob mages, and even werewolves and vampires, dont get the legal option to come out of chargen with one or more Attributes at 9.

Its much the same thing with the Mage constructs that Holden drew inspiration from: the HITMarks and Victor clones and the like, some of whom can have starting stats as high as (Attribute)10 and Soak 20.
None of them get magick though.

I think the only ones I can recall who got magick are ATLAS Units getting 5-10 Rank 1 rotes, and they are explicitly made with an enslaved and brainwashed Mage/Magick-user as a central part of the weapon system.
I assume that in Dresden Files, the Fomor were using the talents they kidnapped for much the same thing.
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The thing is Mage draws a very thick line between Hedge Magic or linear magic and Magick. You can learn linear magic as a member of other plats.
 
uju32 said:
He explicitly denied them the ability to attune by refusing to include any Arcana feature that allowed it.
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You are reaching. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
uju32 said:
Mab is queen and commander of the Court whose raison d'etre is defending reality against the rabid hordes who want to destroy it.
She literally fought a desperate military campaign to ascend to the position of Queen in this AU.

She has been doing the job of defending the Outer Gates for a thousand years.
Did you think she was specced for diplomacy?
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Well, yes. As any ruler with a millenium of experience is ought to be in order to be at all successful.
uju32 said:
No you cant.
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Citation needed. In fact, based on how Emanations can use our kingdom as a keystone, I would argue it's entirely expected to have multiple emanations using the same keystone. You don't expect an exalt to be limited to only one bound spirit servant, do you?
uju32 said:
Fair.
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Here, I think:
Yog said:
It occurs to me that Form of Hero's Shadow splendor property in principle allows for silly broken template stacking. Create a splendor, attach arcana (emanation) to it, like I did with ring AI. Then use Form Of Hero's shadow Adornment with Emanation being the anchor. At least the first level of stacking should be possible. And then you could possibly repeat the cycle. With fascination area of effect splendors you could get some silly stuff quickly.

The ways to counter this would probably be to limit the stack by the dot value of the splendor at the base of the stack (so, if we start with a 4 dot splendor, the maximum stack would be splendor-emanation- 2 splendors attached to the emenation), and to make the destruction of one part of the stack destroy all of it. And probably require more and more resources for stacking, or increasing the difficulty.
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DragonParadox said:
Yep, stacking hits diminishing returns, that said this is the magic of the Age of Legends (or what is left it it at least), you can make some pretty damn powerful allies with it if you pay to have them usable by a non-Exalt.
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There have been clarifications since then (splendors can't be used as Arcana Keystones), and I'd like to ask @DragonParadox for some more, if it isn't too much of a bother:

1) Can multiple Arcana use the same keystone? My personal thought that it would depend on a keystone - a random pebble would be a no go, but a 5 dot prodigy could probably support multiple Emanations. Obvioulsy our Kingdom can support more than one bound spirit.

2) Can living beings, either natural or artificial work as keystones for Arcana? Existence of Spirit Binding in our Courts strongly points to this being the case, but I'd like a confirmation, if possible.
 
Yog said:
Well, yes. As any ruler with a millenium of experience is ought to be in order to be at all successful.
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I'm not so sure about that.
She is very much used to talk from a position of power, I doubt soft diplomacy would be her forte at all.
Intimidation though for sure.

And that sort of manipulation that is as much based in Intelligence as straight socials.

But yeah, in her millennium as a Queen she's likely done more talking than fighting.
 
Artemis1992 said:
I'm not so sure about that.
She is very much used to talk from a position of power, I doubt soft diplomacy would be her forte at all.
Intimidation though for sure.

And that sort of manipulation that is as much based in Intelligence as straight socials.

But yeah, in her millennium as a Queen she's likely done more talking than fighting.
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I would agree that Charisma is her dump stat. Manipulation and Appearance definitely aren't, and neither are Leadership, Intimidation, Subterfuge, and probably others.

We don't actually see Mab do much fighting in canon, she's predominantly a manipulator and strategist, not a from-the-front commander.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 1, 2023 at 6:30 AM, finished with 68 posts and 13 votes.
  • [X] Plan Home Improvement
    -[X] [Harry] Magic-resistant home appliances from the courts, and some tomes on magic fit for general consumption
    -[X] [Harry] Boots and socks
    -[X] [Bob] Magically-resistant computer with high-speed internet access paid for a year and a day for Bob
    -[X] [Bob] Romance novels, from the Brass Courts or from Earth
    -[X] [Mouse] A seta-style remote drone adapted not to require implants (a wearable harness, if possible, controller if not) for Mouse
    -[X] [Mouse] Custom dog bed for a Big Boy
    -[X] [Mouse] Write In: Dog Collar of Thumbs: Dog collar that grants the wearer superhuman manual Dexterity. +2 dice to all Dexterity rolls that involve non-combat manipulation of objects and the environment. In addition, a successful Willpower roll at DC6 will activate a 1-yard range telekinetic ability using the wearer's physical traits for 1 scene or 1 hour, whichever is longer.
    [X] [Mouse] A day at a spa in the Courts where he'll be treated as a sophont
    [X] Plan High Tech Home Improvement
    -[X] [Harry] Magic-resistant home appliances from the courts, and some tomes on magic fit for general consumption
    -[X] [Bob] Magically-resistant computer with high-speed internet access paid for a year and a day for Bob
    -[X] [Mouse] A seta-style remote drone adapted not to require implants (a wearable harness, if possible, controller if not) for Mouse
    -[X] [Mouse] Custom dog bed for a Big Boy
    [X] [Bob] Romance novels, from the Brass Courts or from Earth
    [X] [Harry] Magic-resistant home appliances from the courts, and some tomes on magic fit for general consumption
    [X] [Harry] Boots and socks
    [X] [Bob] Magically-resistant computer with high-speed internet access paid for a year and a day for Bob
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Acolyte said:
Can we get the fetish charm next so we have an actually useable crafting system.
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The crafting system is perfectly usable.

The problem is that we haven't actually gotten the opportunity to apply it yet, and the conversation has been focused on attempting to exploit weird edge cases, half of which rely on ignoring aspects of the system entirely.

To give an example, we can make a prodigy for cheap right now that mostly solves our aura problem, or completely remove it for some higher costs. We can build all sorts of useful tools to make mages of all stripes better, and equip our minions with items that make them significantly more effective. Weapons, armor, utility tools like goggles that let you see through walls, all sorts of things.

It's just that we're not talking about that stuff, we're talking about making 12 layer cakes entirely dependent on loophole abuse. Pretending like the system is useless simply because it can't infinitely stack bonuses via recursive demon timeshares, instantly reformat people into whatever skill set we want, or replicate exalted grade functions for free, is silly.

Prodigies == anything regular magic items can do, and a few things they can't, with a price set by level of plot disruption.

Splendors == rule breaking hacks that have an even higher cost and more complications to use.

Edit:

Alratan said:
The Infernal charm can make a fetish from any spirit, the spell can only make fetishes from weak spirits.
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That's not how it reads to me:

argent miraCle Binding
This spell works exactly as the Rite of the Fetish found on page 213 of W20, save that the sorcerer rolls Wits + Occult against difficulty 9, and the binding it- self occurs over the course of a ritual lasting for (Fe- tish's rating) hours, during which time the sorcerer must spend (Fetish's rating × 3) Essence. As a result, this spell is almost always performed in a Dragon Nest.
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devil-reFining Cauldron (••••)
The Exalt may craft an item suitable for habitation
by a wicked spirit, and then dissolve a Bane or devil until it is ready to be poured into the prepared vessel.
System: This Charm allows the character to create fetishes (see W20, page 221). The character must first craft the item that is to serve as the physical substance of the fetish, and must do so entirely by herself. Then, the Exalt uses this Charm to bind a spirit into the fe- tish. This may be done either with the spirit's willing cooperation, or after battering it until it has been re- duced to 0 Essence and then suspending its dissolution for 24 hours by reflexively spending 1 Essence. Such a "suspended" spirit swirls about within the Exalt's anima until either bound into a fetish, or until the suspension ends, at which point the spirit finishes discorporating.
To bind a spirit into a prepared vessel, the Exalt must retire to a ritual space and spend (Fetish's rating) hours and (Fetish's rating x 3) Essence binding the spirit and object together. Because of the high Essence cost of this Charm, it is most easily performed within Dragon Nests.
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They both tell you to go look at the base rules for how they work crafting wise, same that the charm only works on devils/wicked spirits and applies a 24 stasis period on unwilling targets.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
They both tell you to go look at the base rules for how they work crafting wise, same that the charm only works on devils/wicked spirits and applies a 24 stasis period on unwilling targets.
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They don't. One tells you to look at a specific rite for creating fetishes on page 213, which is limited to weak spirits. One refers to the general rules for fetishes on page 221, which doesn't include the limitation.
 
Tsotate said:
The spell works like the Rite of the Fetish from W20, so it can make any fetish in the book, just like the charm.
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That's incorrect. The charm can use any bane or devil to make a fetish as it doesn't function like the Rite does. The spell can only turn weak spirits into a fetish as it does function as the Rite does.
 
So, in further thoughts on how to f*ck Nemesis's operation up, and place Mab into even more debt to us. We have a tool to defend against Nemesis (2 dot possession-protection splendors) and a tool to exorcise Nemesis (the exorcism charm). We can't (for now?) make a tool to exorcise it that we can give out, but Mab has means to do so on her own, if far more slow and inefficient ones. We now need a tool to detect Nemesis.

It takes 5 successes to even start seeing things, 10 to be sure. That's not something we realistically can do, I believe.
DragonParadox said:
OOC: With your total of -4 to all perception rolls from ATB and BSM you took what would have been DC 9 down to 5. Even with that it would have taken 5 successes to tell there was anything there, 10 successes to where Molly would be sure she was not imagining things because she knew it was there and 15 to the point where you could trigger a charm on it. Guessed what you rolled.
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That's actually a very tall order for what we can make. The best I could come up with was this:
The Splendor manifests in the world as an enchantment embedded in a specific person present at the time of its summoning, chosen by its owner. If it has no other Form Element, then it appears as a mark like a tattoo somewhere on the infected individual's body. Wherever they go, so too goes the Splendor. If it has a physical Form Element, then it appears in the infected individual's possession, and will always return to them at the beginning of each scene even if thrown away, left behind, or given away. If its physical Form is something immobile like a tree, then the targeted individual is going to find that tree wherever they go for the duration of the Splendor's manifestation.
If the Splendor is an Adornment, then this Element allows its benefits to be enjoyed by the person to whom the Splendor is attached, even if they're not its owner and not attuned to it. Even if they're not Exalted at all.
This Splendor defines a rigid certainty and imposes it upon existence.
When used in an Adornment, define a specific roll of (Attribute) + (Ability) and a specialty that it falls under. When the user makes such a roll, she cannot botch and cannot fail regardless of the difficulty. No matter what, she always generates at least one success. If this roll is opposed by another character, Invincible Assertion instead adds two bonus successes.
When used in a Fascination, define a specific roll of (Attribute) + (Ability) and a specialty that it falls under. Under circumstances defined by the Splendor, such rolls cannot fail in its presence, and always generate at least one success. If such a roll is opposed, it adds two bonus successes.
This Element may be incorporated into a Splendor more than once.
This Element can only be part of an Adornment.
The Splendor grants the user one bonus dot of one Attribute, chosen at the time of its creation. This Element may be incorporated into a Splendor more than once, but no individual option can be picked more than twice. No option can raise an Exalt's rating above 5 dots unless the Splendor is rated 4 or 5 dots. No option can raise an Exalt's rating above 6 dots unless the Splendor is rated 5 dots.
One of the Splendor's snares or benefits is particularly wicked or potent. Modify one roll associated with the Splendor by increasing or decreasing its difficulty by two, or modify one value associated with activating or resisting its effects (such as the number of points of Willpower that must be spent to shake off a Beautiful Lie) by two.
+2 dice from Perception +1 guaranteed success on perception, no botching, -2 DC. Assuming 10 dice initial dicepool (5 Perception, 5 whatever), DC9, and 1s subtracting successes, we get an average of 2.2 successes. Assuming now 12 dice, DC7, 1s not substracting successes +1 bonus success, the average success count increases to 7.6. 8.6 if a willpower point is spent for additional success.

Now, working further, it's not hard to make an arcana with basic perception 7 (2 uses of superior mind), favored whatever ability at 6 dots (Divine Favor ability) and acute senses (-2 DC for Perception rolls) . A 2 dot arcana would suffice, I think. Maybe a 3 dot one. So, that's a maximum of 15 dice, -4 DC, 1s don't subtract, +1 guaranteed success. Assuming initial DC as 9, average success count is 12.5, enough to reliably detect Nemesis.

It would be a very hard build, but it might be possible.

And yes, I'll stop with these. We should probably concentrate on cleaning out spies from White Council first.
 
@BronzeTongue I understand that the system as it stands is usable. But could you not call making interesting things that are powerful loophole abuse please. Also prodigies are literal garbage except for that one usage of aura hiding the path of Enchantment is better in every way.
 
@Yog
Molly: you know how I got one of the jawas that set of Naruto comics.
Harry: yeah.
Molly: there was this set of overpowered eyes that allowed you to see directly into pretty much everything.
Harry: okay?
Molly: so I made a pair and put them in my head.
Harry: What?!
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 1, 2023 at 6:30 AM, finished with 68 posts and 13 votes.
  • [X] Plan Home Improvement
    -[X] [Harry] Magic-resistant home appliances from the courts, and some tomes on magic fit for general consumption
    -[X] [Harry] Boots and socks
    -[X] [Bob] Magically-resistant computer with high-speed internet access paid for a year and a day for Bob
    -[X] [Bob] Romance novels, from the Brass Courts or from Earth
    -[X] [Mouse] A seta-style remote drone adapted not to require implants (a wearable harness, if possible, controller if not) for Mouse
    -[X] [Mouse] Custom dog bed for a Big Boy
    -[X] [Mouse] Write In: Dog Collar of Thumbs: Dog collar that grants the wearer superhuman manual Dexterity. +2 dice to all Dexterity rolls that involve non-combat manipulation of objects and the environment. In addition, a successful Willpower roll at DC6 will activate a 1-yard range telekinetic ability using the wearer's physical traits for 1 scene or 1 hour, whichever is longer.
    [X] [Mouse] A day at a spa in the Courts where he'll be treated as a sophont
    [X] Plan High Tech Home Improvement
    -[X] [Harry] Magic-resistant home appliances from the courts, and some tomes on magic fit for general consumption
    -[X] [Bob] Magically-resistant computer with high-speed internet access paid for a year and a day for Bob
    -[X] [Mouse] A seta-style remote drone adapted not to require implants (a wearable harness, if possible, controller if not) for Mouse
    -[X] [Mouse] Custom dog bed for a Big Boy
    [X] [Bob] Romance novels, from the Brass Courts or from Earth
    [X] [Harry] Magic-resistant home appliances from the courts, and some tomes on magic fit for general consumption
    [X] [Harry] Boots and socks
    [X] [Bob] Magically-resistant computer with high-speed internet access paid for a year and a day for Bob
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Arc 10 Post 32: Gifts Abound
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    • Gifts Abound ​

    20th of December 2006 A.D.

    Thankfully most of the shopping you have to do is in Sanctuary, from the City of Scrolls books of Romance, for a friend you insist, from the City of Fountains appliances and conveniences invested with adventurous newly Kindled SUTRAs as well as a spacious bed designed for a sapient quadruped. For Mouse's collar you buy midnight blue ink-bark, flexible as leather and bright green and red feathers like a quetzal's, but these are not taken from slain birds, they are traded fairly from the gild-snatchers, a uniquely talkative and dexterous inhabitant of the eastern jungles, perfect for your purposes. After popping back to Chicago to ask Augustus and Sarah to buy a computer while while they are out doing the shopping for the Last Station you step back into the Palace, back into the laboratory.

    The hall is a perfect pentagon of marble and black glass, all along it threaded brass in arcane patterns as ancient as the palace, the pedestal at the center long recognized as 'holy' though its greater purpose was only unveiled when once you took a moment to think 'where might a laboratory be'. One by one you tap glyphs upon each wall, at shoulder height precisely, they start to hum, or purr perhaps, like some titanic feline woven from a nap and in the darkness glow like eyes of jade upon the slab, the table in the center.

    Upon it now you set a block of pure white marble, not Parian, nor yet Penteleic, a fact which Lash pretended to be huffy about, but you are no fool, you can see the gleam in her eyes as she beholds plain Danby Marble from Vermont. Distantly you wonder what the quarry workers who pulled their from the earth would think of the purpose to which you are setting it. Then the vents open a blast of chill air and the pneumatic chisels descend like some mechanical spider from the ceiling obedient to your will.

    Brass upon stone sparks, the path of each one measured, each strike a note in the song, each motion a step in the dance: hands and feet, arms and legs, each one is in time revealed, always with an eye to the plan, always with a hand on the stone to feel the vibrations. At some point you find yourself humming along deep in your chest then singing to no mortal key the song of metamorphosis.

    From stone where they carved, the shapeless given shape.
    Stone was broken and souls unspun, bound beyond escape
    Clay was molded, set to flame
    Nameless then were given name    ​

    Like some priest from Pharaoh's day, you carve the organs, each in part and set them in their proper place with cunning latch and artful gears. From gold you spin her hair on arcane loom that burns with crimson heat, each wing you carve so fine a cut that light might pass though them, feathers light enough to catch the wind and fly. At last her eyes you carve of polished jade, lidded silver that in them the world's beauty be reflected.

    ***​

    Date Unknown

    Statue and mirror in hand you make the translation and briefly panic when you realize you are not sure what day it is. "Clippy day and hour please."

    "18:30 PM 12.23.2006"

    Huh I've been working for seventy five straight hours now. After the brief surge of pride comes the panic, you had not called in for more than three days. "Yeah Dad, I'm OK, I was just working on the other side and I got... distracted."

    "Molly, you're OK?" Now it's time for guilt at the worry you hear in his voice and then some worry of your own when he adds: "Your mother wants to talk to you."

    "Sure, put her on." In the silvery depths of the mirror Lash's eyes dance with mirth at your tone.

    "What have you been doing?" she asks, syllables growing heavier in a way you know all too well.

    The words come unbidden. "Getting a present ready."

    She sighs, clearly weighing the pros and cons of having a argument this close to Christmas about Christmas. Luckily she seems to feel the latter outweigh the former "You are getting home tonight, right?"

    "Yes, I'll finish up here at... midnight." Another word you had not meant to say, but somehow it feels right to end the rite then not as Christmas, but one full turn of the heavens before, a day to be filled as she feels fit.

    You can hear the phone shift against her hair as Mon shakes her head. "I almost miss the times when it was just parties."

    "Love you too Mom," you say answer, a little cheekily maybe but with rock solid sincerity.

    Turning back to the mirror you ask Lash if she wants anyone here. She does, so you ring up Burny who's in Harry's duster pocket. For once he's out, though there are other people there is definitely does not sound like a party. Oh right, you remember, he plays Dungeons and Dragons with those guys from the University of Chicago, the 'Alphas'. You turn the phone towards the mirror...

    "Want to come to my birthday party Harry?" the shadow of the Fallen calls loudly, eliciting a whole bunch of snickers and leading questions on the other side.


    What other Christmas presents do you want to get?

    [] Write in

    OOC: I was going to make the vote if you get Harry to witness what is about to happen, but that is not really Molly's decision, it's Lash's so instead let's finish up Christmas planning and then we can have the rite from Harry's point of view. Who knows, he might even learn something.
     
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