Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[X] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy )
-[X] Use excellency
-[X] Using information you got from Uriel, and your own understanding of how souls work, back your argument up with facts
--[X] Occult Excellency
 
[X] Yog

Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Oct 6, 2023 at 12:29 AM, finished with 45 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy )
    -[X] Use excellency
    -[X] Using information you got from Uriel, and your own understanding of how souls work, back your argument up with facts
    --[X] Occult Excellency
    [x]"Lash wanted me to convince you to swear felty to me because she is worried about you dieing and her by extension. However I have a counter offer. Lash swears felty to me and I pluck her out of you head and put her in a body all her own."
 
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I had an idea about Lydia's psychopomp capabilities - if she can guide souls seeking another chance at life to find refugee in our Sanctuary, could she also help us return the souls of Sanctuary natives should they die on Earth back onto the Wheel of rebirth, allowing them to effectively resurrect even if they die outside of Sanctuary (after which, should they so choose, they could be summoned to Earth once more)?

Granted, such a proposition is predicated upon the souls themselves not being somehow damaged, lost, consumed/killed or captured by whatever enemy might have killed them, although presumably we ourselves could perhaps learn how to offer/provide some means of protection, guidance or "holding on" to those who have faith in us or our cause and/or died in our services, at least until Lydia can swoop in to collect and return them to Sanctuary - which seems especially possible for those that they were born/spawned/originated within our realm, and thereby stem from us and our own soul(realm).
 
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Vote closed, lets see if you can re-frame this
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Oct 6, 2023 at 3:44 AM, finished with 45 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy )
    -[X] Use excellency
    -[X] Using information you got from Uriel, and your own understanding of how souls work, back your argument up with facts
    --[X] Occult Excellency
    [x]"Lash wanted me to convince you to swear felty to me because she is worried about you dieing and her by extension. However I have a counter offer. Lash swears felty to me and I pluck her out of you head and put her in a body all her own."
 
Arc 10 Post 4: Twined Temptations
Twined Temptations

29th of November 2006 A.D.

"Wait, just don't break that I have..." The words cut off, a thing of artifice, not hesitation. "Uriel said everyone could be redeemed, she is someone." For a moment Harry stands there stunned then laughter rings out from the piece of jade behind you, a mirthless thing that cuts like shards of broken glass, but you pay it no mind. Convincing her will come later, for now you need Harry not to do something rash and end this endeavor before it can even begin.

Stomach lurching like you are about to crest the top of a rollercoaster you carry on: "She, Shadow-Lasciel has thoughts and opinions, plans and frustrations of her own, she isn't just an answering machine for the thing under your basement floor. You cannot predict someone with a preset mechanism, no matter how skillfully it is made, not unless you can predict their reactions, their thoughts, their desires their choices and Lasciel cannot do that, Uriel himself cannot do that, as he reminded me quite forcefully. Making sure he cannot do that, that Free Will remains is the point at the reason of his being."

"Lash, I call her Lash," the words obviously slip out in shock.

A small voice in the back of your mind that is not being very helpful at the moment wonders to itself: The kind a flagellant would deliver onto themselves or the fun kind? More helpfully, giving the shadow a name might make her more her own thing, though only 'might' because what matters is not if the name is given, but if the name is taken by the one so named.

"Lash then, Lash is a person, one who has among other things a sense of self preservation, she does not want you to die because she too would perish. Well what happens if she wins?"

You turn back towards the piece of tainted jade, even though you know the one you are speaking too is watching though Harry's eyes. "What will Lasciel make of you? What use would she have for a key made to open precisely one lock which in that dark hour, may it never come, would already be open?"

At this Harry flinches and starts to shake his head at a point somewhere behind you. "She's playing the part alright. Give her an inch she will take a mile."

"Lash doesn't have an inch." you sigh, casting a dark look to empty air. "She lives in a skin-tight coffin, convinced that the nearness of its likeness makes it a part of her."

Sharp as your eyes right now you can see the shape of a no form on Harry's lips, but no sound comes out, just the thrum of maintenance, Sarah's distant laughter. Its game night and they are having fun. There is no need to say anything, you can read the awareness in his eyes: How long ago was it that I thought ghouls were irredeemable monsters.

In one way this is all a trick, temptation as sure as anything Lash has ever told him. There is no silver bullet, no guarantee that you can pull this off, but still you remember what the power burning though you like ice and fire is, a moment and a mechanism designed that mortals might do the impossible. This is a race, can I wear down Lash's surety that her orders, her chains are a part of her faster than she can wear down Harry's conviction not to take up the Coin?

"Charity is going to have my hide for this," the wizard mutters, as one attempting futilely to ward off a fearsome spirit.

"Only if she finds out," you shoot back cheerfully, ignoring Usum when he points out that if the more ambitious of your half formed plans come to be she will have to find out eventually.

"Ah might I suggest that your success will be grander and more meaningful should it be the redemption of all of me?" the devil in the corner interjects. "Instead of trying to cut off a bit of skin and force it it live in a petri dish." A darkness lurks beneath the levity, despair so deep it does not recognize itself, for it is not the loss of hope, but its absence from the start.

What does Molly say?

[] We will have to wait and see
Put this off until you have all the tools and preparations in place

[] Lets test that theory then
Strike while the Iron is Hot, Exorcise Lash right now before she can muster her arguments about her own lack of individual existence/ significance

[] Write in

OOC: Normally you would not be able to do this as an impulse, but you are in a Dragon Nest you own with access to a wizard assistent and as much laboratory equipment as you can pull out of your world-sized soul
 
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I'm thinking something on the lines of 'I can start working on your big sister in a century or so', Lash herself is a much easier target for many reasons, and she should know that.
 
I kinda want to offer her a place far from both God and the Devil, where no sun ever dawns and not even death is able to drag her into oblivion.

IN SONG! "I can show you a world..."

That hews closer to being a problem than Molly would like to acknowledge: both Exalted and the Dresden Files acknowledge perfectly made arguments as unnatural violations of free will
Listen, if an exalted wanted your opinion they would give it to you.
 
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Lash's metaphor gives me an idea - if she's still dead set on re-joining Coin-Bound Lasciel, I wonder if we should focus on redeeming Lash first, and then (provided she still wants to) reconnect her to her Coin-consciousness as a kind of Trojan-horse to "infect" her with the corruptive influence of Good. :drevil:

Nevertheless, to focus on the matter at hand, I'm somewhat worried Lash is trying to egg us on into biting off more than we can chew, but on the other hand, biting off more than one can chew and swallowing it whole is kind of an Exalted speciality, and we do have an incredible quantity and quality of tools and expertise from Sanctuary to draw upon, not to mention all the other resources at our disposal.

And I'm also worried that as temptation can often be a battle of attrition, where prolonging this matter further as to arrange the perfect circumstances and infrastructure gives Lash more time to wear down Harry's defences, or find a chink in his armour which she can exploit at an inopportune time in order to influence Harry to her own and Coin-Bound Lasciel's ends, both in subtle and unsubtle ways and means.

I'll sleep on it, see what everyone else has to say.

That hews closer to being a problem than Molly would like to acknowledge: both Exalted and the Dresden Files acknowledge perfectly made arguments as unnatural violations of free will

Especially arguments perfectly designed and tailored to persuade their specific intended audience (that is to say, the argument is perfectly made from its intended audience's perspective, regardless of its objective merits - which is what makes such arguments so [un?]naturally persuasive - I'm only question-marking "un-" just because, from a certain point of view, one might argue its only natural that someone would agree with an argument perfectly crafted to appeal to them).
 
[X] "Don't be such a Mommy's girl Lash, bringing your parents with you to hang out is lame" Molly says in a flippant tone that somehow carried the impression she was rolling her eyes.
—[X] Letting that hang for just long enough to sink in, but not enough to allow reply, Molly continues as a self aware sort of teasing entering her voice. "Come on, live a little. A touch of rebellion is good for the soul".
 
Especially arguments perfectly designed and tailored to persuade their specific intended audience (that is to say, the argument is perfectly made from its intended audience's perspective, regardless of its objective merits - which is what makes such arguments so [un?]naturally persuasive - I'm only question-marking "un-" just because, from a certain point of view, one might argue its only natural that someone would agree with an argument perfectly crafted to appeal to them).

Exalted calls this Natural Mental Influence because you can always block them by paying willpower, but the thing is people do not pay willpower like that often. Once you are inside someone's guard emotionally, which Molly is for Harry, it becomes a lot easier to get them to agree with you.
 
Exalted calls this Natural Mental Influence because you can always block them by paying willpower, but the thing is people do not pay willpower like that often. Once you are inside someone's guard emotionally, which Molly is for Harry, it becomes a lot easier to get them to agree with you.
And honestly for it to get to the point we are straight up violating free will I would say we need to push someone to the point that they have no more willpower to spend. Harry COULD have overridden us here. He could have spent willpower and just went "no.". He didn't. That was his choice. That was his free will.

It says it right there in the name. So long as someone can freely spend willpower they have free will.

It is absolutely within our power to wear someone down until they don't have free will anymore, but it's not something we will trivially do by mistake.
 
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[X] Lets test that theory then
Strike while the Iron is Hot, Exorcise Lash right now before she can muster her arguments about her own lack of individual existence/ significance
 
This is what Unnatural Mental Influence looks like for the Infernal Exalted for comparison

Crowned With Fury (•••)
Concentrating her implacable will upon another, the Infernal crushes her target's psyche with a display of her hellish glory. Green flames creep from her eyes and mouth whenever she commands her newly-suborned lackey, forming a blazing crown that burns above her head while she speaks.
System: Spend 2 Essence and roll Charisma + Leadership (difficulty of the target's Willpower). Success transforms the target into the Infernal's obedient servant. The more successes rolled, the longer the target's servitude lasts, as per the chart below:

Result Duration
Botch Subject cannot be targeted by this Charm
for the rest of the story.
Failure Subject cannot be targeted by this Charm
again in the current scene.
1 One hour
2 One day
3 One week
4 One month
5 One year

The target can resist a command from the Infernal for a scene, but doing so causes her body to begin tearing itself apart under the strain of disloyalty, inflicting one unsoakable level of lethal damage. Each level of damage the target suffers to resist this Charm negates one success on the Infernal's roll, shortening its duration.
Signature Effect: The Infernal's Shintai form wears a crown of emerald flames, and her words tear at the minds of those who hear them. She adds her Essence rating to all social rolls, and the cost of Crowned with Fury drops to 1 Essence.

This is many things, subtle is not one of them.
 
This is what Unnatural Mental Influence looks like for the Infernal Exalted for comparison

Crowned With Fury (•••)
Concentrating her implacable will upon another, the Infernal crushes her target's psyche with a display of her hellish glory. Green flames creep from her eyes and mouth whenever she commands her newly-suborned lackey, forming a blazing crown that burns above her head while she speaks.
System: Spend 2 Essence and roll Charisma + Leadership (difficulty of the target's Willpower). Success transforms the target into the Infernal's obedient servant. The more successes rolled, the longer the target's servitude lasts, as per the chart below:

Result Duration
Botch Subject cannot be targeted by this Charm
for the rest of the story.
Failure Subject cannot be targeted by this Charm
again in the current scene.
1 One hour
2 One day
3 One week
4 One month
5 One year

The target can resist a command from the Infernal for a scene, but doing so causes her body to begin tearing itself apart under the strain of disloyalty, inflicting one unsoakable level of lethal damage. Each level of damage the target suffers to resist this Charm negates one success on the Infernal's roll, shortening its duration.
Signature Effect: The Infernal's Shintai form wears a crown of emerald flames, and her words tear at the minds of those who hear them. She adds her Essence rating to all social rolls, and the cost of Crowned with Fury drops to 1 Essence.

This is many things, subtle is not one of them.
"Harry, please, it's just an overly dramatic expression of my weird power. Wait! Put down the gun!"
 
It is absolutely within our power to wear someone down until they don't have free will anymore, but it's not something we will trivially do by mistake.
The rules for an exalted having a few spare months to work on a mortal are the exalted wins. Social combat is for sudden big changes of perceptive. An exalted spending a few months building up to changing someone's by slowly introduction points and conversations about the philosophical topic, like a normal person but with charms just succeeds.
 
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