- Location
- Seattle, Washington
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We should never have bought NWS.
Coming back to this, because it bugged me, so I went back to check.
Compare:
Death Masks
When the Denarians chose to go after Harry at the beginning of the book to take him off the table one way or the other, they sent Ursiel in solo to ambush him in an alley. Ursiel didnt initially even bother to bring up his magic resistance at the time, he didnt cast any magic, and Harry only survived because Act of God.
Small Favor
When the Denarians went after Ivy the Archive?
They devised a magical trap and containment cell, field tested it, and got the personal help of Lucifer Morningstar himself to help power it. They then lured her into position at the Shedd Aquarium, sprung the trap to prevent her escaping or drawing on magic, and dropped almost 20x Denarians on her in close quarters. AND piped gas through the ventilation system.
===
Same guys in both books.
Different responses to different perceived threat levels.
If we keep walking around the setting feeling like Ereshkigal unchained from the Underworld, the response protocols are going to be very different than anything Dresden has faced to date, and rather towards the Archive end of the scale.
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We've gotten use out of it in the past, but I don't think anyone feels the need to aggressively press his buttons just yet.
I don't care if he is suspicious afterwards, thats his job i just need him to let us cleanse the council.
Its not a waste if it frees like one of the biggest factions from enemy infestations.
It is a hypothetical to illustrate my point yes .
Because it was the showdown between one of the biggest factions. Winter and summer and odin vs formors.
Yeah i am fine with that, lets beat satan and win that war instead letting the denarians torment humanity forever.
If we can kill caine we can kill satan. Hell we don't even need anything that outrageous, if the eye of balor can kill angels if hit than they aren't that tough.
I am sure the wizards can be directed to channel their paranoia at actual traitors instead of hypotheticals.
We can tho, a citizens miltia was a significant force in battlegrounds, we can certainly do better than that.
We don't have the infrastructure now of course so thats a good point but that should be our first priority next month.
No it rests on that we can mitigate what actions they take.
Its all about preprations. If we give the time for the denarians to come to us, they will be much more prepared for us. But if on the other hand we jump them in italy or wherever they can't seriously hurt the things we care about because we have the initiative. Same with the black council. If we let them fester and summon and send outsider against us then ita hard to fight them. Instead if we lead midnight spec ops raids against them while they are not perpared for it then it is much easier to dismantle the black council.
We have to do first strikes if we want to minimize damage.
Sure they can do prep to get deadlier. But notice the other common factor in that. The enemies took the initiative and laid traps. It doesn't matter what knowldge they have if we don't give them a time to act and lay those traps. We have to take the initiative instead of trying to hide from enemies that are going to learn about us anywy.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
It's not even about pressing his buttons it's about getting an extra clue about him. We have already paid for ATB and Empathy exalancy we might as well use the charm that is boosted by both of those.
Our use of NWS on Isabella has been informative for our every interaction with her.
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BoredMan
It seems there was some brain damage after all
Dude.
If he's suspicious of us why the hell would he allow us to "cleanse" the WC? You aren't making any sense right now.
Again it would be a waste because we could manage it without Winter vouching. We haven't even tried yet. Nor is Winter's word of much value in this case because most of their motives aren't the same as the White Council's. It wouldn't hold nearly as much weight to human wizards as you are assuming.
It was a misleading one.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We have used it exactly once.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
IIRC we used it on Nemesis and Isabela.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Right twice and we don't regret either time. But we don't seem to want to use it even when we have already paid for all the bonus buffs. Right now we get 5 successes easy.
the winter favour for vouching for us. Thats why i mentioned it.
And if mab tells the merlin that we are telling the truth, he will belive her. If nothing else than to avoid a war with winter.
How is it misleading. If we tell the merlin about the traitors and say we want to help him. He either doesn't belive us or he does belives us.
If he belives us than having such a potent diviner helping capture and investigate traitors is invaluable so we will likely get an actions.
If he doesn't belive us than we burn a favour and make him accept our help anyway.
BoredMan
It seems there was some brain damage after all
In your original comment you said if we tell Merlin then next turn we can start cleansing the WC. That is misleading because it is extremely unlikley that the, centuries old wizard set in his ways, would move that fast forgoing all concerns and allow us to start doing that "next turn".
If we burn a favor from one of the most established and powerful factions in the entire setting it won't be for a fucking maybe. I can promise you most people in this thread will fight you on that.What the hell does "make him accept our help" mean? You seem to think we can bully Merlin without consequence.
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I think people understand that i am not the qm amd as such my word is not what it will happen. So i assumed i don't need to add that. It was a general statement not a specific plan.
What is more important use of the favour than cleansing the white council. Like it seems massively important to me.
And yeah we can bully him. He understands that what winter vouching for us means and that he has to swallow his distrust because the worlds super power is vouching for us.
Its like if england rebukes the US if they point out people in their country that are russian spys. Like sure they may conduct their own investigation but they sure as hell can't not act on it. Not if they want to use the ways afterwards. Because they would be insulting mab for not beliving us.
BoredMan
It seems there was some brain damage after all
You aren't listening. What I've been telling you is, we can deal with the WC without burning a favor at all. It's not required and would be better leveraged somewhere else.
Your doing it again. Your assuming Aurthur will think or will act in a certain way with no basis for your claims.
You think Mab will just be over his shoulder making sure he acts as if he believes us after the fact? Why would Mab care what he does with that information?
Also the US and England have been allies for years so your comparison doesn't make sense.
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That's ridiculous, he has no reason to trust or believe in our assertions.
Civilian militias that mostly died messily and occasionally killed meaningless adds you mean?
Tell me, what exactly could we deploy that would have stopped Broken Seeker from taking our muggles? Preferably something that wouldn't be met with a delegation from the Library backed by the National Guard.
First strikes against all of reality isn't a viable plan. It's probably not even viable against all the most critical groups at the same time, and if we start on something like this they're going to notice and act.
This isn't a clever hack, it's suicidal.
Yes thats fine. I am saying its an option we have if he doesn't belive that we are telling the truth.
Yes i am assuming he has some competency in managing his emotions. I could be totally wrong, but we won't know if we don't try.
Yes because we are spending a favour so presumably she gives a shit about ensuring it happens.
Yes he does, harry can vouch for us or we can give him proof its not an insurmountable challange. We literally have a knight of the cross vouching for us. He has reasons, it may not be enough but its definitely reasons.
A dozen cyber guys would shred him.
Like if i stat them using hitmarks for the Technocracy they would wipe the floor with him and they look human on top of it so no real issues of with it. Maybe people from our hell won't be as inconspicuous but its not a big deal either way. If wizards and vampires can exist and hunt humans openly i sincerely doubt the loc will want to fuck with us. Like they can't handle the fucking red court vampire squads and those are bush league tiers compared to hitmarks.
No but its possible against the two groups that are the real problem. The denarians and the black council. Those guys are ultimately the only ones that have the magical skills to take us down. Everyone else we can do what we are doing now.
They are already going to act. Like they aren't going to ignore us or something. I am willing to bet they are already brewing plans against us. Its not like the white council doesn't know about us or the red coat or any random fae.
So is waiting for them to spring their trap.
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
- Location
- Brazil
You know the Council trusts any kind of faerie, Winter or Summer, just how far they can throw them right? They can't lie and they must keep their promises of course, but they are literally the example of rules lawyers in the DF universe.
Not to mention Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, isn't known for making moves with less than five different objectives.
The point is not that he will suspect later, he will immediately suspect us when he finds out. And if he suspects us in the beginning he will never let us approach the council, his comrades of centuries and the people he must protect, to "cleanse" the traitors without considering it an act of war. And he would be right about that.
Even if we manage to do this without him or the other blocking nodes, the entire White Council will just consider us a very dangerous enemy faction, which has killed several of its members and will never trust our claims of information.
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What are you talking about? The Denarians were nowhere in Battlegrounds.
Satan's reaction:
You are under a severe misapprehension about the current balance of power.
An Angel, even a Fallen one, is a mindbogglingly powerful entity in the Dresdenverse.
They are the kind of entity that can, and did kill a man with seven words a la Scion from Worm. A Fallen unbound from its Coin would pink mist us trivially. And Lucifer Morningstar is an Archangel. A peer of Uriel and his brothers.
The strongest enemy statted in ExWoD are like 3rd/4th generation Antediluvians, and they are supposed to be encounters for a mature Circle of Celestial Exalts.
Caine isnt even there let alone an unbound Fallen angel.
Uriel personally came to our home to warn us not to try to keep a Coin in our Hell specifically because it would give Lucifer enough of a loophole in the rules to break us and our soul like a twig.
Im sorry, but this proposal is horrifically out of touch with the setting as portrayed.
Lol.
Respectfully, no offence, but that is hilarious. Wizards are people too, and an uncomfortable number prioritize their own comfort and power over principle.
There was a sizable contingent of wizards whose response to the war breaking out was to try to throw Dresden to the Reds as appeasement, and he was essentially threatened into acting as Mab's Emissary in Summer Knight.
At this time, he was apparently the youngest wizard on the White Council.
So again, the White Council is generally a force for good in this setting.
But, its also a human organization, with human members. And if you think that an organization with human members is not going to immediately focus on the walking infohazard who can expose their secrets, you havent been paying attention to people.
A citizen's force buffed by the War charm-equivalent of Winter Knights and Baron's banners, and supported by two Knights of the Cross. Against an aquatic army with zero experience fighting on land, and whose commander was off pursuing grudges rather than leading her troops.
Whose leader explicitly had no interest in fighting intelligently, but more in crushing people's will.
Seriously, come on.
And? How does NWS help us here? Can do is not should do.
We have an allowance of 4m of Essence we can spend in a scene before we begin to glow with green fire, and Naked Wicked Souls costs 1m to use. That is 1m we can spend on an Excellency, or a Crown question as necessary.
We have better things to spend that Essence on in this situation.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I don't know how it will help. I don't know what we will find at the very least it will give us an insight into a formative moment in Merlin's character. However that is always going to be the case with NWS because if we already knew what we would find there would be no point in using it. In which case we should not have bought the charm.
I will mention that I was against buying the charm for exactly that reason.
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No. You have no idea what you're talking about.
As in, you think these guys would shred a naagloshii:
HIT Mark IX – "Iron Bob"
Almost immediately obsolete, the bulky HIT Mark VIII – which returned to the "big heavy weapons platform" design of older models – proved to be too massive, vulgar and unreliable for widespread deployment. Even so, teams of Iteration X and Void Engineer specialists co-opted the framework and many of the parts from the Mark VIII to create the huge and deadly HIT Mark IX.
These monstrosities are exceptionally vulgar but incredibly lethal. Sometimes, they're the only things that will work. And so, if a team of Technocratic operatives discovers an exceptionally dangerous threat – like the gateway to a particularly hellish Realm, or an attack by several dozen werewolves – the best response may involve sending in the deadliest option possible… and that's the Mark IX. Standing almost seven-and-a-half feet tall, this model weighs over 300 kg (roughly 600 lbs); has a plasma cannon mounted inside each arm; and resembles a massive bodybuilder (male or, rarely, female) with the 'roided-out physique of a hardcore iron man… hence its nickname, "Iron Bob" (or, for female models, "Dolly Steel").
Attributes: Strength 10, Dexterity 3, Stamina 10, Charisma, 1, Manipulation 1, Appearance 2, Perception 4, Intelligence 1, Wits 2
Abilities: Alertness 3, Brawl 3, all Skills & Knowledges 3, save the usual exceptions.
Willpower: 5
Health Levels: OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, -5, Terminated
Armor Rating: 5 (15 soak dice, total)
Attacks/ Powers: Twin IR-Mark Plasma Cannons (damage 8, range 100, capacity 200, inflicts aggravated damage; can perform the automatic fire, multiple shots, three round bursts, and two-weapons maneuvers, with no penalty for using two weapons); large claws (13 dice, lethal damage); and usual capacity to use normal human-sized gear and hypertech. The large size of Mark IX units, however, means that firearm trigger-guards must be modified to fit the huge fingers of the HIT Mark unit; without such modifications, most guns are too small for a Mark IX to employ. (Even then, they easily break such weapons by squeezing the triggers too hard; on a botched roll, the gun gets broken.)
Outside Technocratic facilities or Realms, Mark IX units are Paradox magnets. The moment a Mark IX unveils its plasma cannons in a typical Earth consensus environment, count that HIT Mark as having an immediate eight points of Paradox… and the Cannons are, of course, vulgar Forces/ Prime Effects. Even without the plasma cannons, a Mark IX in combat is clearly too strong and tough to be human. Each turn a Mark IX fights in clear view of Sleeper witnesses, it gains one point of Paradox.
A Mark IX that loses its last Health Level automatically self-destructs. Technocratic technicians can also set one to self-destruct if it's captured or incapacitated. Normally, this self-destruct function just melts and fuses all internal components; however, a technician can also cause the Mark IX to explode, inflicting 8 dice of lethal damage upon everyone within four yards of the Mark IX.
Countermagick: 4 dice of Primium countermeasures.
Image: As mentioned above, this HIT Mark looks like a refugee from a '90s comic book… but probably taller.
Roleplaying Notes: HIT Mark smash!
Almost immediately obsolete, the bulky HIT Mark VIII – which returned to the "big heavy weapons platform" design of older models – proved to be too massive, vulgar and unreliable for widespread deployment. Even so, teams of Iteration X and Void Engineer specialists co-opted the framework and many of the parts from the Mark VIII to create the huge and deadly HIT Mark IX.
These monstrosities are exceptionally vulgar but incredibly lethal. Sometimes, they're the only things that will work. And so, if a team of Technocratic operatives discovers an exceptionally dangerous threat – like the gateway to a particularly hellish Realm, or an attack by several dozen werewolves – the best response may involve sending in the deadliest option possible… and that's the Mark IX. Standing almost seven-and-a-half feet tall, this model weighs over 300 kg (roughly 600 lbs); has a plasma cannon mounted inside each arm; and resembles a massive bodybuilder (male or, rarely, female) with the 'roided-out physique of a hardcore iron man… hence its nickname, "Iron Bob" (or, for female models, "Dolly Steel").
Attributes: Strength 10, Dexterity 3, Stamina 10, Charisma, 1, Manipulation 1, Appearance 2, Perception 4, Intelligence 1, Wits 2
Abilities: Alertness 3, Brawl 3, all Skills & Knowledges 3, save the usual exceptions.
Willpower: 5
Health Levels: OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, -5, Terminated
Armor Rating: 5 (15 soak dice, total)
Attacks/ Powers: Twin IR-Mark Plasma Cannons (damage 8, range 100, capacity 200, inflicts aggravated damage; can perform the automatic fire, multiple shots, three round bursts, and two-weapons maneuvers, with no penalty for using two weapons); large claws (13 dice, lethal damage); and usual capacity to use normal human-sized gear and hypertech. The large size of Mark IX units, however, means that firearm trigger-guards must be modified to fit the huge fingers of the HIT Mark unit; without such modifications, most guns are too small for a Mark IX to employ. (Even then, they easily break such weapons by squeezing the triggers too hard; on a botched roll, the gun gets broken.)
Outside Technocratic facilities or Realms, Mark IX units are Paradox magnets. The moment a Mark IX unveils its plasma cannons in a typical Earth consensus environment, count that HIT Mark as having an immediate eight points of Paradox… and the Cannons are, of course, vulgar Forces/ Prime Effects. Even without the plasma cannons, a Mark IX in combat is clearly too strong and tough to be human. Each turn a Mark IX fights in clear view of Sleeper witnesses, it gains one point of Paradox.
A Mark IX that loses its last Health Level automatically self-destructs. Technocratic technicians can also set one to self-destruct if it's captured or incapacitated. Normally, this self-destruct function just melts and fuses all internal components; however, a technician can also cause the Mark IX to explode, inflicting 8 dice of lethal damage upon everyone within four yards of the Mark IX.
Countermagick: 4 dice of Primium countermeasures.
Image: As mentioned above, this HIT Mark looks like a refugee from a '90s comic book… but probably taller.
Roleplaying Notes: HIT Mark smash!
Dexterity 3, Brawl 3, Firearms 3? Perception 4 + Alertness 3? Against a veiled shapeshifting spellcasting nightmare? Really?
Seeker wipes the floor with them, and he doesnt even get scratched. If you put actual HITMarks on the field he mass-disables them with techbane or some anti-materiel spell. If you are just using the stats for people, then he gets gruesome.
We see Shagnasty tank the point blank fire of two of the strongest combat wizards on the Council in canon when he attacked the Raith manor. Without damage.
Your threat assessment is very badly off.
You could put ten times that number on the field and all you'd achieve is make him spend more time killing them.
When you have limited resources, you dont spend them on speculative exercises.
Furthermore, the Merlin is mortal. Mostly mortal dicepools.
We have ATB running for a scenelong Perception boost, and it synergizes with the Empathy Excellency we have running.
Right now, we have no need to use NWS, and actual demands on those motes.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Which is the exact reason I want to use NWS right now when we are almost certain to get at least 5 successes. It synergies.
I remember arguing with you about buying NWS. If it is a waste of an essanse in social situations why did we get it?
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1)And then we only have 2m left to spend for the scene on social Excellencies or Crown questions before flaring our anima.
Thats a bad plan.
2) We dont use Shintai in many of our fights; it doesnt make it useless.
We dont use Alchemy every day; its not useless.
We havent used Ancient Sorcery since we exorcised Maeve; its not useless.
The fact that we dont use a charm at every opportunity does not make it a waste of Essence or XP.
We use NWS when its necessary; we dont have to force it into every engagement.
And this is a negotiation, not an interrogation. We have no need to pry into the Merlin's shames, especially since we cannot articulate anyway it would help us in this situation.
Besides, NWS paid for itself in full when we used it on Nemesis. If we never used it again, it paid for itself right there.