Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

BronzeTongue said:

Why go this far with it? They're not total incompetents, they just place too much trust in some people.

Sharing something that hints at how we draw power from learning things that are true and secret is a lot less risky than hinting at the crown and avoids a lot of associated complications with pointing fingers.

Even outright sharing that particular ability isn't that much of leak relative to the potential gain here. I don't like sharing things, but intelligence sharing between potential allies sometimes requires steps like this to establish credibility of the data. We wouldn't be giving all the data we have, but as long as what we do give us true and was received from that source it's not really lying to them.

He's a lot more likely to trust that, because it sounds almost plausible. Information spirits like Bob do get direct strength from knowing things beyond what they can be used for after all. Something older and stronger than them that works similarly isn't particularly crazy.

Once the thought is planted he'll likely start actually looking, which should lead him to finding the traitors himself. Even if he doesn't as long as he believes we believe it we get some leeway on our evasiveness.

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I wouldlike to give less (because I recognize that in this situation the less we give, the more plausible it is for Merlin). But I don't see how we can. Ideally we'd sort the list of all leaks, and discard all the people not in position to affect the outcome of our hunt, all the grunts who wouldn't be told anyway about this before they are called to action, etc. But we just don't have the foci for it. So, I am doing what I think is the next best thing - using subterfuge excellency (our least used favored ability), blaming a divine spirit of betrayal (it's plausible that he might have scrying abilities related to the concept of betrayal), and trying to sell that we have been investigating for a while.

I am trying very hard to hide the crown while still giving White Council useful intel. The reasons I have for this are:
1) We are both on the side of humanity. That matters
2) Dresden is very much in trouble right now for concealing shitton of stuff he really, really should have reported. This covers for him a bit
3) We are likely to run into political trouble with WC soon, better to butter them up.

How would you suggest I do this? I am open to suggestions.

Yog said:

I wouldlike to give less (because I recognize that in this situation the less we give, the more plausible it is for Merlin). But I don't see how we can. Ideally we'd sort the list of all leaks, and discard all the people not in position to affect the outcome of our hunt, all the grunts who wouldn't be told anyway about this before they are called to action, etc. But we just don't have the foci for it. So, I am doing what I think is the next best thing - using subterfuge excellency (our least used favored ability), blaming a divine spirit of betrayal (it's plausible that he might have scrying abilities related to the concept of betrayal), and trying to sell that we have been investigating for a while.

I am trying very hard to hide the crown while still giving White Council useful intel. The reasons I have for this are:
1) We are both on the side of humanity. That matters
2) Dresden is very much in trouble right now for concealing shitton of stuff he really, really should have reported. This covers for him a bit
3) We are likely to run into political trouble with WC soon, better to butter them up.

How would you suggest I do this? I am open to suggestions.

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For what it is worth Harry did not sound very worried about what would happen to him for concealing that information, whether that is because he knows the Merlin can't do anything to him over it or he would prefer not to be a warden anymore or something else Molly cannot say, there is a limit to what even Exalted socials can do with a few words spoken in haste.

[X] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2

While both sides have good arguments, I feel like this is risk worth taking, we might just be able to obfuscate our intel source while emphasising its importance and reliability if we go all in with our Excellencies. Fundamentally, my instinct is to at least try to reach out rather than withhold, although that might sometimes be more trouble than its worth.

Yog said:

How would you suggest I do this? I am open to suggestions.

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Pretty much how has already been discussed. Attribute it to our secret verification ability if necessary and stick to Gorfel's testimony for the moment.

I get where you're coming from, but it's worth noting that just moving faster on our end doesn't necessarily move the council faster, and the less plausible our claim the less likely they are to do something about it.

Haste isn't speed and all that rot.

It's not like the Merlin is going to walk out of this meeting and start spying on or executing people on the list, they're old friends and subordinates and we're and unknown who screams arch demon on vacation on every respect save association. For all he knows the point is to cast suspicion when the council can least afford any infighting.

He's more likely to try intermediate verification steps to justify invasive screening, which is time consuming and relies on someone making a visible mistake.

The more plausible our suspicions are the more progress we make in getting him to trust us when we name names.

So we start here by planting the idea and get him to the same step he'd go to in either case, but with more engagement on his part. Then we follow up with more information and work through the problem as we establish credibility.

We can also slip the list to Ebenezer while we do this with the council as a whole so he can play emergency brake. While we lead the horse to water in a way that will incline it to drink he can keep an eye on the problem children to catch any of their major plots.

If they do try something and the most paranoid council member just happens to catch them then the whole process ends in our favor right there.

We really need more of a stunt when we get the plan figured out.

[X] Yog

I think another important thing to shoot for in this meeting is to establish some sort of follow up association. It doesn't really matter specifically what the details are so much as it does to allow for some exposure and familiarization.

Have a grand old time murdering vampires with the wardens or trading reagents with the council's alchemists are both equally valid ways of accomplishing that.

It's stuff like this that helps cement a working relationship rather than leaving us in the "scary outsider who drops unpleasant information on us and then runs away" camp. Which is unfortunately a good description for a number of unpleasant spirits who're usually trying to mess with you somehow when they play this game.

[X] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2

We should at least tell Merlin why we can't trust the WC with jack shit.
[X] Plan Softer Information Control

Yog said:

1) We are both on the side of humanity.

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You can't really say that when a good portion of them are working with the Black Council or the Reds. What you mean is, "A fraction of the White Council are on the side of humanity".

Big difference.

Back again.

Yog said:

Leaving aside how she's Maeve's sister, which would exempt her from most rules, is she actually a magic user at all?

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Pretty sure she has the capability.
I cant think of a quote off the top of my head, though.

Yog said:

Valkyries aren't human. They are akuma equivalents of Odin, divine messengers elevated from humanity. And their number is below 20.

Our humans are, well, humans. They are using human magic, if one of vastly different tradition from those present on Earth. They are going to be an issue with White Council.

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That isnt true.

Dresden doesnt call her out as inhuman.
Whatever Odin did with and to them, it didnt change their humanity.
In canon, she's a scion. She essentially confirms that she's a scion when Dresden asks:

Heorot said:

SEVERAL HOURS AND doctors later, Gard and I wound up back at the pub, where the beer festival was winding to a conclusion. We sat at a table with Mac. The Braddocks had stammered a gratuitous number of thanks and rushed off together. Mac's keg had a blue ribbon taped to it. He'd drawn all of us a mug.
"Night of the Living Brews," I said. I had painkillers for my shoulder, but I was waiting until I was home and in bed to take one. As a result, I ached pretty much everywhere. "More like night of the living bruise."
Mac rose, drained his mug, and held it up in a salute to Gard and me. "Thanks."
"No problem," I said.
Gard smiled slightly and bowed her head to him. Mac departed.
Gard finished her own mug and examined the cast on her arm. "Close one."
"Little bit," I said. "Can I ask you something?"
She nodded.
"The grendelkin called you a Geat," I said.
"Yes, he did."
"I'm familiar with only one person referred to in that way," I said.
"There are a few more around," Gard said. "But everyone's heard of that one."
"You called the grendelkin a scion of Grendel," I said. "Am I to take it that you're a scion of the Geat?"
Gard smiled slightly. "My family and the grendelkin's have a long history."
"He called you a Chooser," I said.
She shrugged again, and kept her enigmatic smile.
"Gard isn't your real name," I said. "Is it?"
"Of course not," she replied.
I sipped some more of Mac's award-winning dark. "You're a Valkyrie. A real one."
Her expression was unreadable.
"I thought Valkyries mostly did pickups and deliveries," I said. "Choosing the best warriors from among the slain. Taking them off to Valhalla. Oh, and serving drinks there. Odin's virgin daughters, pouring mead for the warriors, partying until Ragnarok."
Gard threw back her head and laughed. "Virgin daughters." She rose, shaking her head, and glanced at her broken arm again. Then she leaned down and kissed me on the mouth. Her lips were a sweet, hungry little fire of sensation, and I felt the kiss all the way to my toes—some places more than others, ahem.
She drew away slowly, her pale blue eyes shining. Then she winked at me and said, "Don't believe everything you read, Dresden." She turned to go, then paused to glance over her shoulder. "Though, to be honest, sometimes he does like us to call him Daddy. I'm Sigrun."
I watched Sigrun go. Then I finished the last of the beer. Mouse rose expectantly, his tail wagging, and we set off for home.

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She and her sisters are a thing, and noone bugs them when, say, they use lethal magic to boobytrap a storage locker.
So no, once again, the White Council knows fully well when to butt the fuck out with magic users of human ancestry.
They pick their fights.

BoredMan said:

We should at least tell Merlin why we can't trust the WC with jack shit.
[X] Plan Softer Information Control

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I provided the quotes upscreen.
Langtry knows they have traitors. Most senior wizards do.

They have suspected this since Simon Petrovich got murdered in the middle of his defenses at the beginning of the war.
They had confirmation since most of the Wardens got slaughtered around Halloween last year in a trap that required massive systematic leaks of Council secrets, and almost killed the Senior Council.

And again this year in June when they had to pull forces from a winning battle to go save a secret White Council training camp from Red Court and Outsider attack, which weakened their forces enough that the Red King and some of his army were able to escape a trap that the White Council and Summer Court had caught them in.


Do remember that he is obliged to deny this to any outsiders.
In canon, they didnt admit that Peabody was a traitor because they worried about how it would look to the rest of the supernatural world; so they just covered it up.

Flaunting White Council secrets while being a known associate of Dresden puts Harry under the microscope as possibly blabbing Council secrets.
Thats just a bad plan.

For everyone who wants to give some information to the Merlin instead of shooting ourself in the foot by deciding to be a wall when we already are suspect, we really should consolidate or approval vote, because the multitudes of variations are hurting us right now.

Edit:

And to lead by example:

[x] Yog

[x] Myrix

Nyarky said:

Adhoc vote count started by Nyarky on Sep 2, 2023 at 11:43 AM, finished with 116 posts and 26 votes.

• ---

  11 people have voted

  [X]Plan Information Control
  -[X] No, you know there are high placed traitors in the White Council, keep the secret of your plans even if it means you have to stonewall him
  --[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council traitors before the meeting

  • uju32
  • OctarineShrike
  • Goldfish
  • Quest
  • Vanguard_D
  • TheGrape
  • Azais
  • tenchifew
  • LightLan
  • Tsotate
  • 恐Drake

  7 people have voted

  [X] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2
  -[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council leaks in regards to Red Court
  -[X] When meeting Merlin ask for a private meeting, no bodyguards, to discuss sensitive issues
  --[X] Empathy excellency to sell having reservations- as much as he has reasons to distrust you, so you have reasons to be suspicious. But you are willing to talk.
  -[X] In private put your money where your mouth is and show yourself to be a friend of the Council.
  --[X] Ask that Merlin not share it with people you list until after possible leaks cannotaffect the outcome of the plan. Or he can give them different information to check who is actually leaking and verify your Intel. It's his organization, he knows best. If he does share the information regardless your request, ask he at least monitor the possible leaks to confirm your Intel.
  --[X] Give him the list of leaks
  ---[X] Subterfuge excellency to disguise your source as a result of investigation, mixed with information you got from a naagloshii, mixed with your own divination.
  ---[X] Do not claim that this information is necessarily perfectly accurate
  -[X] Etiquette Excellency for the whole meeting.

  • Yog
  • Yzarc
  • Nyarky
  • the DragonBard
  • Negentropy
  • Luca Nox
  • myrix

  6 people have voted

  [x] No, you know there are high placed traitors in the White Council, keep the secret of your plans even if it means you have to stonewall him

  • tenchifew
  • LightLan
  • Tsotate
  • 恐Drake
  • KonradC
  • Modus_Tollens

  4 people have voted

  [X] Plan Softer Information Control
  -[X] No, you know there are high placed traitors in the White Council, keep the secret of your plans even if it means you have to stonewall him
  --[X] Empathy excellency to sell having reservations - you have reasons to be suspicious of possibility of leaks
  --[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council leaks in regards to Red Court

  • myrix
  • Yzarc
  • BronzeTongue
  • BoredMan

  2 people have voted

  [X] Plan "Limited Gift Giving"
  -[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council leaks in regards to Red Court
  -[X] Give the list of leaks to Merlin. Explain how you did you due diligence when preparing for an ambush as a reason you have the list.
  -[X] Put your money where your mouth is and show yourself to be a friend of the Council, after extracting the promise that the information won't be leaked
  -[X] Excellencies as needed to sell this: Subterfuge to explain the source of the list, Empathy and Etiquette for the introduction, etc.

  • ImBuda
  • FactorySmith

  1 people have voted

  [X] Yes, put your money where your mouth is and show yourself to be a friend of the Council

  • Klaus Wulfenback

  1 people have voted

  [X]Plan Information Control
  -[X] No, you know there are high placed traitors in the White Council, keep the secret of your plans even if it means you have to stonewall him

  • Sanguine Son

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For everyone who wants to give some information to the Marlin instead of shooting ourself in the foot by deciding to be a wall when we already are suspect, we really should consolidate or approval vote, because the multitudes of variations are hurting us right now.

Edit:

And to lead by example:

[x] Yog

[x] Myrix

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Literally, repeatedly pointed out since July of 2022:

DragonParadox said:

You would need to know what the Accords are first, but after that sure you can ask questions about it as a concept. That said you might want to get your mundane and generally available info first so you do not blow variable subject intelectus on it

Because Usum is a demon and certainly not above paranoia when it comes to gatherings of sorcerers who might want to use him (or in this case you) it should also be said: The Crown will probably scare the hell out of a bunch of people high up in the Council, especially as they have no way to a make you waste questions since they cannot see you using it to check. The moment you lay eyes on them their most shameful secrets are at your fingertips... and I mean that literally. "What is the Merlin's monst shameful secret?" is a valid question

So maybe do not share that widely is the demon's suggestion.

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Usum suggested we keep mum about our ability to pull secrets out of the air.
Dresden has suggested we keep mum.
Bob has suggested we keep mum.

This isnt a "only traitors have to fear". Every wizard has secrets they dont necessarily want other people to know about.

Just consider Dresden, who has a Fallen Angel's Shadow in his head, owes Mab a couple favors and has a White Court vampire for a brother, and how he'd feel if someone with Molly's powers who isnt a girl he's known since she was in training bras was able to ferret that out by looking at him.

uju32 said:

Literally, repeatedly pointed out since July of 2022:

Usum suggested we keep mum about our ability to pull secrets out of the air.
Dresden has suggested we keep mum.
Bob has suggested we keep mum.

This isnt a "only traitors have to fear". Every wizard has secrets they dont necessarily want other people to know about.

Just consider Dresden, who has a Fallen Angel's Shadow in his head, owes Mab a couple favors and has a White Court vampire for a brother, and how he'd feel if someone with Molly's powers who isnt a girl he's known since she was in training bras was able to ferret that out by looking at him.

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THEN GIVE HIM SOMETHING ELSE.

It's not that complicated, this is a negotiation, you don't come here with an attitude that will make things worse if you actually want a positive relationship, and stonewalling is just that.

uju32 said:

Thats just a bad plan.

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If you are against providing a specific reason why we'll have to deny him by stonewalling if he would inquire, I would again ask you to edit in just a general softening to your plan, something like:
--[] Empathy excellency to sell having reservations
or even just
--[] Applicable excellencies
in general. It would not require flaunting anything, just inconspicuously alluding to something as you said WC and Langrey know.

It's straight up better for following reasons:

1. You said earlier that just a simple roll with base attributes would be enough, but it might not be, we are not somebody who looks trusting and reliable, as per the update:

DragonParadox said:

which would go a long way to making you look more reliable, all appearances to the contrary.

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There might be an uphill DC which would leave us with 0 successes fail, or we might get not the best result with little successes, like something might be contested or we would need more successes to not get some malus.

2. And it goes without saying that we would like the best possible relationship with the White Council, at least we would like to there be no distrust and animosity. And we are not starting from a neutral position, both our methods and we ourselves are not exactly trusted:

DragonParadox said:

"I shall be blunt as you were then, I do not trust it. A meeting should clear up certain irregularities in your deportment Mrs Carpenter."

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3. The opportunity cost is insignificant, we are at 12/15 essence, plenty to use some on an important one-time thing when we are not expecting any follow-up today.

So again, please uju, we are not losing anything by adding at least an excellency to smooth things over, why not do this? That's what we are Exalted for, to do things superhumanly better when they matter to us, and this matters.

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Edit:

uju32 said:

Usum suggested we keep mum about our ability to pull secrets out of the air.
Dresden has suggested we keep mum.
Bob has suggested we keep mum.

This isnt a "only traitors have to fear". Every wizard has secrets they dont necessarily want other people to know about.
Just consider Dresden, who has a Fallen Angel's Shadow in his head, and how he'd feel with someone with Molly's powers who isnt a girl he's known since she was in training bras.

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You are arguing past the info sharing plan here, it specifically says:

Yog said:

---[X] Subterfuge excellency to disguise your source as a result of investigation, mixed with information you got from a naagloshii, mixed with your own divination.
---[X] Do not claim that this information is necessarily perfectly accurate

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We do keep mum about ability to pull secrets out of the air, Yog's latest [] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2, which is the current most-voted info sharing plan, addresses these concerns.

Nyarky said:

For everyone who wants to give some information to the Marlin instead of shooting ourself in the foot by deciding to be a wall when we already are suspect, we really should consolidate or approval vote, because the multitudes of variations are hurting us right now.

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Why would we be shooting ourselves in the foot? Merlin doesn't go into that meeting expecting to gain anything (information, war help, alchemical regents) with us. This meeting is just for us to introduce to him and he ask if we know anything that has made a magical impact on seers before (and maybe not even that), that's all.

Among us, however, is people wanting to bombard him with offers that he would think were too good to be true or that would have very heavy accompanying prices (and he would be acting responsibly as the leader of the Council in this).

He is already neutral with us, thanks to our father, Uriel's guarantee, Ebenezar and our willingness to talk on neutral ground. Him remaining neutral is our goal, him thinking a little better of us is a good bonus, he will come hostile is a shot in the foot.

Wary of us he will stay anyway, as he is the centuries old leader of a supernatural power currently at war, the best way to improve our relationship with the Council is interactions over time, never all at once.

Azais said:

He is already neutral with us, thanks to our father, Uriel's guarantee, Ebenezar and our willingness to talk on neutral ground.

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In order: Probably doesn't' know about him, definitely doesn't know about him, the guy didn't tell him, that's not really a point for us, just not a point against.

He is borderline hostile because Harry didn't explain shit, his first impression is a phone possessed by a demon while he is investigating visions that makes people think the gates of hell opened, and we only told *we have a meeting with something dangerous, call you later*.

[X]Plan Information Control
-[X] No, you know there are high placed traitors in the White Council, keep the secret of your plans even if it means you have to stonewall him
--[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council traitors before the meeting
--[X]Bring Michael as an observer/guarantor

Why don't we bring Molly's Dad to the meeting?

myrix said:

2. And it goes without saying that we would like the best possible relationship with the White Council, at least we would like to there be no distrust and animosity. And we are not starting from a neutral position, both our methods and we ourselves are not exactly trusted:

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I'm actually curious what he meant by that @DragonParadox. Through our encounter with Ebenezar the council already believe that we are not within his judgment radius, so why would he ask for explanations of any of our behavior (whatever that may be) when our only interaction with anything to do with them is the Order of the Cauldron, who are lesser practitioners whom the council doesn't care about as long as they don't break the Laws, and our interaction with Harry, who as Warden Commander has no orders concerning us and is an adult wizard who can converse with any entities he chooses as long as he doesn't bring damage the council or break the Laws.

What is his reasoning for demanding explanations as if we should or as if we were under his authority?

Nyarky said:

In order: Probably doesn't' know about him, definitely doesn't know about him, the guy didn't tell him, that's not really a point for us, just not a point against.

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Ebenezar must have told him or the Council about us, it was the whole reason for our meeting with him at the beginning of the quest, so the Council wouldn't judge us for messing with mind magic.

uju32 said:

I provided the quotes upscreen.
Langtry knows they have traitors. Most senior wizards do.

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Knowing they probably have traitors and knowing they're senior council are different things.

More importantly, telling him we know gives context to why we aren't sharing much else with him.

I don't think a list of traitors is a good idea because it'll cause complications in our relationship and probably won't actually lead to real action faster than doing this a more subtle way, but stonewalling isn't helpful either.

myrix said:

If you are against providing a specific reason why we'll have to deny him by stonewalling if he would inquire, I would again ask you to edit in just a general softening to your plan, something like:

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We are doing this anyway.
Its a major conversation, and we routinely use Excellencies during those. There's no way we walk into a conversation with the Merlin of the White Council without having Hellscry Chakra + All Things Betray + Empathy + Etiquette Excellencies running.

Im loath to edit it in because it will mess up the vote tally.

myrix said:

You are arguing past the info sharing plan here, it specifically says:

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myrix said:

We do keep mum about ability to pull secrets out of the air, Yog's latest [] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2, which is the current most-voted info sharing plan, addresses these concerns.

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I am not. This is Yog's current vote:

-[X] When meeting Merlin ask for a private meeting, no bodyguards, to discuss sensitive issues
--[X] Empathy excellency to sell having reservations- as much as he has reasons to distrust you, so you have reasons to be suspicious. But you are willing to talk.
-[X] In private put your money where your mouth is and show yourself to be a friend of the Council.
--[X] Ask that Merlin not share it with people you list until after possible leaks cannotaffect the outcome of the plan. Or he can give them different information to check who is actually leaking and verify your Intel. It's his organization, he knows best. If he does share the information regardless your request, ask he at least monitor the possible leaks to confirm your Intel.
--[X] Give him the list of leaks
---[X] Subterfuge excellency to disguise your source as a result of investigation, mixed with information you got from a naagloshii, mixed with your own divination.
---[X] Do not claim that this information is necessarily perfectly accurate
-[X] Etiquette Excellency for the whole meeting.

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Wizards dont believe in Santa Claus.

We are pulling information out of the air and asking him to take it on faith.
Furthermore, the Merlin didnt plan on coming to Chicago until less than 24 hours ago. We somehow put that dossier together in that time and we literally have no explanation for how we came by it.

Can you not see just how alarming that capability is coming from an Infernal.

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LightLan said:

Why don't we bring Molly's Dad to the meeting?

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We are, arent we?
I cant imagine why we wouldnt bring him with us. Unless the White God sends him out of the city on a job or other.