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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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[X] You can afford to be a little late, try to defuse the situation
-[x] [Stunt] Harry the people here walk alongside the spirits. They would have spent centuries working together before even thinking of making the jump to melding.
-[x] Empathy Excellency.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
The proper name is good enough.

Wondering how much the WC will be willing to pay for a list of our war spirits, they can summon to aid in the war.
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We should probably give them a discount on that one, but set it up so that it isn't obvious what we're doing.

The WC is highly likely to be squeamish about those sort of deals, so we don't want to scare them off or discourage using our services at scale. Once they're more comfortable with us we can introduce more premium services that we charge more for.

If we can actually work out exports being able to supply reagents and magical paraphernalia will probably be our highest grossing business with them.

Even discounting actual enchantment, being able to order custom built mundane objects to use in their work without hiding what it's for would be very nice.

A staff etched with exactly this sort of silver with a specific set of runes, ritual tools made from the same material right down to the hunk of ore, that sort of thing.

Our people are also supposed to be good alchemists if that part of the background made it in. Even with the shelf life issue being able to hand out health potions to the Wardens would be valuable.
 
On our next trip here we should probably bring the documents for the Unseelee Accords for all the local Lawmasters to look over, signing such a thing should definitely be done with the input of the Fivefold Courts.
 
powergoat said:
On our next trip here we should probably bring the documents for the Unseelee Accords for all the local Lawmasters to look over, signing such a thing should definitely be done with the input of the Fivefold Courts.
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We should do that, but I'd put it further down the list. This next bit should basically just be a meet and greet, we'll need time to actually explain the outside world to them.

A few trips dedicated to getting them up to speed before we talk about signing anything with anyone would be useful.
 
BronzeTongue said:
We should do that, but I'd put it further down the list. This next bit should basically just be a meet and greet, we'll need time to actually explain the outside world to them.

A few trips dedicated to getting them up to speed before we talk about signing anything with anyone would be useful.
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Fair, an internet database plus whatever books on Magic, Monsters, and Faerie we can spare… Lydia would probably be willing to lend our some of her collection for them to make copies of, especially if they trade some of their own manuscripts on the Wheel and the concepts behind the Rituals of Endings.

On that note, while Necromancy doesn't exist in the Fivefold Courts, might a 'new' type of dark magic/ Law exist- 'Thou May Not Twist The Wheel Of Another', for a path of magic that can do things such as lengthen the time spent before reappearing after death, shorten that time for a cost of not healing fully or properly, twisting where people who die end up, linking the wheels of two beings together as one- there is precedent in how the prison keeps people in its cells, and it would make sense as a Dark, Rare, and Very Illicit magic in the courts, at least when using on others.
 
powergoat said:
Fair, an internet database plus whatever books on Magic, Monsters, and Faerie we can spare… Lydia would probably be willing to lend our some of her collection for them to make copies of, especially if they trade some of their own manuscripts on the Wheel and the concepts behind the Rituals of Endings.

On that note, while Necromancy doesn't exist in the Fivefold Courts, might a 'new' type of dark magic/ Law exist- 'Thou May Not Twist The Wheel Of Another', for a path of magic that can do things such as lengthen the time spent before reappearing after death, shorten that time for a cost of not healing fully or properly, twisting where people who die end up, linking the wheels of two beings together as one- there is precedent in how the prison keeps people in its cells, and it would make sense as a Dark, Rare, and Very Illicit magic in the courts, at least when using on others.
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We can probably just use a cyber devil to copy all those books without physically borrowing them, but in general that'd be a good move.

On the necromancy thing; I'm skeptical about it being possible to disrupt the wheel that way. It's an exaltation backed process with specific parameters. The prison is different, but it was written into those rules from the start.

A wizard or sorcerer trying to fiddle with that directly would be arm wrestling the infernal shard for a soul, which sounds like a spectacularly unhealthy idea to me.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if trying regular necromancy inside the FCF is a bad plan. The Wheel might just run your ass over, back up, then do it again if you infringe on its domain too far.
 
BronzeTongue said:
On the necromancy thing; I'm skeptical about it being possible to disrupt the wheel that way. It's an exaltation backed process with specific parameters. The prison is different, but it was written into those rules from the start.
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I would disagree- The wheel is a natural law of the realm, an alternative imposition of physics, and is baked into the realm, but isn't the result of a constant and active expression of Infernal Power, it is the state of things. Trying to alter it on any grand scale would be neigh impossible, but a sorcery path that can shift the wheel slightly for individuals seems feasible as any overturning of the natural order through magic. It also fits that a new hell realm will have a brand new type of Dark Magic to replace the one that is lost by the lack of death, it feels very thematic.
 
Makes sense.

Necromancy also goes against the natural order in the normal world, but you don't have to butt heads with the White God each time you use it, right?
 
powergoat said:
I would disagree- The wheel is a natural law of the realm, an alternative imposition of physics, and is baked into the realm, but isn't the result of a constant and active expression of Infernal Power, it is the state of things. Trying to alter it on any grand scale would be neigh impossible, but a sorcery path that can shift the wheel slightly for individuals seems feasible as any overturning of the natural order through magic. It also fits that a new hell realm will have a brand new type of Dark Magic to replace the one that is lost by the lack of death, it feels very thematic.
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This is accurate, not every instance law in this realm is enforced with the power of the Exaltation defending itself. If Harry were to levitate a rock the Exaltation would not smite him for altering the law of gravity so yes it is possible to alter and warp the workings of the Wheel and it generally goes... badly. But and this is important, unlike necromancy this is a power sink not a power source, you do not gain anything from trying to get someone to come back sooner or forcing conception beyond the bounds of the Wheel, you get tragedy and monsters, but no armies of the dead.
 
Only real use for necromancy I could see for the FCFF is to retrieve a mortal soul, that died outside of the realm. And return them to the hell to be reborn. Permanent death would put off the majority of humans, Tocatli, Gurvel, from venturing out.
 
DragonParadox said:
Oh sure, I meant relative to the several hundred million gurvel.
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That's fair.

On the other hand, those prone to get excessive implants might be disproportionate represented amongst the elite, amongst top scientists, thaumaturges, artists, lawyers, sportsmen, etc, so might be more socially prominent (but also likely to hide the side effects).

Cementing the loyalty of the elite is also particularly useful - as is the fact that they are likely to notice the side effects have vanished; and so take advantage by getting even more cybered.

DragonParadox said:
Well the colour that is most associated with Molly's shintai is nuclear-hatefire-green, though the Jades might call copyright infringement. They might call copyright infringement on quite a few things come to think about it, especially if you start awakening the Po of mortals and teaching them Demon Arts. :V
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And if those mortals start coming back as Wan Kuei…

powergoat said:
The Brass Court would also work, it's not a Color but neither is Jade technically. The Grey court on account of all the cyborgs might also work?
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My headcanon is that the default metal colour for the cyberware is brass.
 
DragonParadox said:
But and this is important, unlike necromancy this is a power sink not a power source, you do not gain anything from trying to get someone to come back sooner or forcing conception beyond the bounds of the Wheel, you get tragedy and monsters, but no armies of the dead.
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So nasty stuff, but not the kinda thing that could ever spawn a Realm wide threat on its own. Maybe something like this?
Path of the Wheelbinder
1 Dot - Feel The Wheel: Trace the karmic lines to get an idea of when and where a recently dead being will revive
2 Dot - Push The Wheel: Shove a recently dead being deeper into the wheel, lengthening the time they take to return.
3 Dot - Turn The Wheel: Change the place a recently dead being would reappear in in the next cycle
4 Dot - Pull The Wheel: Hasten the return of a recently dead being, at a cost of incomplete healing and a chance of negative mutations.
5 Dot - Grasp The Wheel: Bind a beings wheel in a long term manner, tying their karma to a place or state in which they will continually revive in.

A theoretical '6th Dot' would be altering the wheel in an area to pull off stuff like the Prison, stuff that is firmly in the realm outside of Mortal skill and in the power of the Exalted'

Perhaps a non-dark version of this path which a Sorcerer only uses the magic on themselves, still can be risky, but a 'Wheeldancer' sorcerer who can freely alter how they revive is a good counterpoint as well.
 
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Alratan said:
That's fair.

On the other hand, those prone to get excessive implants might be disproportionate represented amongst the elite, amongst top scientists, thaumaturges, artists, lawyers, sportsmen, etc, so might be more socially prominent (but also likely to hide the side effects).

Cementing the loyalty of the elite is also particularly useful - as is the fact that they are likely to notice the side effects have vanished; and so take advantage by getting even more cybered.
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Maybe if the downsides where only physical, but given that severe mental issues can also result from overuse, I doubt that too many of those you mentioned can pull it off.
What does it help if a good implant helps you in you job, when you are burned out after a few years of insomnia and paranoia?

I hope our people can take the long view, that a relativly short period of enhanced abilities is rarely worth the long-term cost.
It's a bit like doing serious amounts of cocaine, it might "keep you sharp" or whatever you want from it for a while, but in the long term you are propably a wreck if you can't moderate the intake.
And unlike drugs you can't stop using an implant quite so easily. I suspect without a powerful excorcism you can't stop at all without dying.
 
DragonParadox said:
This is accurate, not every instance law in this realm is enforced with the power of the Exaltation defending itself. If Harry were to levitate a rock the Exaltation would not smite him for altering the law of gravity so yes it is possible to alter and warp the workings of the Wheel and it generally goes... badly. But and this is important, unlike necromancy this is a power sink not a power source, you do not gain anything from trying to get someone to come back sooner or forcing conception beyond the bounds of the Wheel, you get tragedy and monsters, but no armies of the dead.
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Isn't the hell itself a charm though? It's literally carved into Molly's soul just like the others are, and exists as part of her path as an infernal toward Yozi/primordial enlightenment.

I wouldn't expect it to smite people for doing anything nominally unnatural, if only because magic counts as a natural force to it no different than making an object fly with rockets or something, but directly contradicting it on the placement of souls is a lot closer to direct opposition to its function.
 
BronzeTongue said:
but directly contradicting it on the placement of souls is a lot closer to direct opposition to its function
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My read, and the thinking I had when making that simple path right above, is that Wheelbinders aren't directly contesting the wheel itself, but more like tricking and lying to the wheel about the details of the beings that are passing through, saying 'this person is deeply connected to x' or 'this fella is going to need a long time before returning to recover properly' in a metaphysical sense, kinda like putting a false layer of metadata over someone's soul. In no way could they directly oppose the wheel, and do something like stop someone from returning, but the week is a force not an intelligence, so wihile making the river flow upstream is unviable bending the currents is.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Maybe if the downsides where only physical, but given that severe mental issues can also result from overuse, I doubt that too many of those you mentioned can pull it off.
What does it help if a good implant helps you in you job, when you are burned out after a few years of insomnia and paranoia?

I hope our people can take the long view, that a relativly short period of enhanced abilities is rarely worth the long-term cost.
It's a bit like doing serious amounts of cocaine, it might "keep you sharp" or whatever you want from it for a while, but in the long term you are propably a wreck if you can't moderate the intake.
And unlike drugs you can't stop using an implant quite so easily. I suspect without a powerful excorcism you can't stop at all without dying.
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Thing is, dying is just taking a sabbatical.

And if our Cyber-Thaumaturgists are good enough at it, like WoD's Pentex bane binders, they can probably influence the taints you end up if.

For example, taints like substance dependency on tailored drugs to prevent rejection are manageable, as, for the elite or even upper middle classes, psychological ailments that can be managed with psychoactive drugs or more magic from therapist-sorcerers with the right Paths of their own.

For the upper classes who can afford support staff, managing quite a few taints might be worth it to maximise their performance.
 
Alratan said:
Thing is, dying is just taking a sabbatical.

And if our Cyber-Thaumaturgists are good enough at it, like WoD's Pentex bane binders, they can probably influence the taints you end up if.

For example, taints like substance dependency on tailored drugs to prevent rejection are manageable, as, for the elite or even upper middle classes, psychological ailments that can be managed with psychoactive drugs or more magic from therapist-sorcerers with the right Paths of their own.

For the upper classes who can afford support staff, managing quite a few taints might be worth it to maximise their performance.
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The problem is that attuning things makes them follow you through the wheel, and cybernetics like this probably count.

If mental mutations are a possibility then immortals might be even more cautious about them than they'd otherwise be on the basis that they're one of the few consequences that could follow them forever if they get bad enough to stop them from recognizing the problem.
 
Alratan said:
Thing is, dying is just taking a sabbatical.

And if our Cyber-Thaumaturgists are good enough at it, like WoD's Pentex bane binders, they can probably influence the taints you end up if.

For example, taints like substance dependency on tailored drugs to prevent rejection are manageable, as, for the elite or even upper middle classes, psychological ailments that can be managed with psychoactive drugs or more magic from therapist-sorcerers with the right Paths of their own.

For the upper classes who can afford support staff, managing quite a few taints might be worth it to maximise their performance.
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You might be underestimating the negative effects I think?

Keep in mind regular Formori have a lifespan of a few years and often go completly insane or dissolve their own stomach with their acid-glands or stuff like that.
Only one in several dozens of Formori is stable and long-term survivable I think.
Even a relativly controlled version of that is gonna be bad.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Keep in mind regular Formori have a lifespan of a few years and often go completly insane or dissolve their own stomach with their acid-glands or stuff like that.
Only one in several dozens of Formori is stable and long-term survivable I think.
Even a relativly controlled version of that is gonna be bad.
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Yep you have to roll incredibly well to last as a highly augmented Formori. They would take it for things like expeditions into the wastes, but probably just off themselves after getting back. But Molly power says nope to side effects, so their is going to be a revolution in the next year or so as suddenly high powered stuff is viable to give to everybody.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Isn't the hell itself a charm though? It's literally carved into Molly's soul just like the others are, and exists as part of her path as an infernal toward Yozi/primordial enlightenment.

I wouldn't expect it to smite people for doing anything nominally unnatural, if only because magic counts as a natural force to it no different than making an object fly with rockets or something, but directly contradicting it on the placement of souls is a lot closer to direct opposition to its function.
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Sure it is and Malfeas the City was Malfeas King of the Yozis, but if you were careful and clever you could flaunt his will even there, he did not watch every sparrow's fall. Also worth noting that Molly is a lot more into free will on a base level than the Yozis.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The problem is that attuning things makes them follow you through the wheel, and cybernetics like this probably count.

If mental mutations are a possibility then immortals might be even more cautious about them than they'd otherwise be on the basis that they're one of the few consequences that could follow them forever if they get bad enough to stop them from recognizing the problem.
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I'm not sure; but I don't think being possessed would follow your through the wheel. Otherwise all our population would be born as fomor whether they had cyberware or not.

Note that taints aren't permanent mutations. They're supernatural side effects of being possessed.

And they can be managed. That's part of what Pentex or a Devil Tiger demonologist does when it develops fomor creation techniques. For example, its psychic fomor are dependent on eating brains to stave off degeneration, but

There are reliably producible stable fomor variations that can live for centuries. You just need a lot of experience to know how to bind what type of bane to someone to create that particular variety.

The other interesting people out there may be devil children/fectori, if they exist in our Hell, the offspring of the right kind of devil/bane and a mortal. They're stable fomor.
 
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Being a fomori does not follow one through rebirth, indeed if you do something silly and install more than 5 gifts which is past the hard limit of the technology you die, messily and painfully and it will take you a long time to come back, but come back you will.
 
VOTE
[X] You can afford to be a little late, try to defuse the situation

RATIONALE
He's the local White Council representative, and a military commander.
He's also the first person that a lot of people will ask about their personal impressions.
Avoiding any misunderstandings is worth a short delay with meeting some officials.

Michael doesnt really have the information base to explain any changes; Molly is Occult 5, and he's not.



Not sure why people are so focused on convincing Dresden that this domain was forged from Molly's souls.
He's a wizard; they pride themselves on superior information in occult affairs, and that is an attitude that sticks.
Even when Molly was newly-Exalted, he had to soulgaze her for himself in order to be convinced

Give him information, and maybe a blank tablet when he's leaving the Hell as a piece of solid indigenous tech that doesnt evaporate into ectoplasm. Then let him do his own research.
Talk to Bob, talk to other oracular spirits, go to Edinburgh and consult the archives there, talk to Ebenezar.
 
uju32 said:
VOTE
[X] You can afford to be a little late, try to defuse the situation

RATIONALE
He's the local White Council representative, and a military commander.
He's also the first person that a lot of people will ask about their personal impressions.
Avoiding any misunderstandings is worth a short delay with meeting some officials.

Michael doesnt really have the information base to explain any changes; Molly is Occult 5, and he's not.



Not sure why people are so focused on convincing Dresden that this domain was forged from Molly's souls.
He's a wizard; they pride themselves on superior information in occult affairs, and that is an attitude that sticks.
Even when Molly was newly-Exalted, he had to soulgaze her for himself in order to be convinced

Give him information, and maybe a blank tablet when he's leaving the Hell as a piece of solid indigenous tech that doesnt evaporate into ectoplasm. Then let him do his own research.
Talk to Bob, talk to other oracular spirits, go to Edinburgh and consult the archives there, talk to Ebenezar.
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Michael does have very good diplomacy dice pools though, he would not focus on clearing up misunderstandings so much as keeping the magic people calm while they talk magic at one another.. If you want things cleared up yeah Molly is the better option hands down. I mean you could also leave Usum to deal with things, but he is kind of annoyed with Harry right now.
 
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