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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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A_Somebody said:
I'm confused about what your specific complaints are now.

You started complaining that Molly hasn't changed the setting enough.

Multiple people pointed out several things Molly has done that are impactful--both of the direct murder kind and the social kind.

You dismiss her social achievements as being meaningless (Cauldron) and that the killy stuff is also unsatisfying since it's just preserving the status quo. You amend your initial complaint to specifically reference that she hasn't made as big of a splash as Dresden

People then point out how Dresden has been in this for muuuccchh longer. Even then his broader social impact isn't really that much larger than what Molly has done in months and most of his achievements are focused on killing shit that seeks to disrupt the status quo (by killing people)

Your response is that's its okay for Dresden since he's the "chosen one" but not for Molly? I'm seriously scratching my head here. I'd think you viewing Dresden as a chosen one would mean your expectations are higher, not lower
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My point was not that their meaningless that they don't matter to the greater world or even chicago. They could all die and the city would move on. I said its not fair for most at least cause harry may as well be the chosen one for how much hes saved. I'm complaining its been a real god damn year and if we disappeared today the setting would not be all that different without us. A few wizards would survive, some things would have consequences in about a decade in the winter court, Chicago would never know or care. I just want to do more and I'm a bit tired we haven't been after an entire real life year we've not even completed minor projects or change. We could do a lot lot more than we have. We've done a decent bit of murder. I want more.
 
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A_Somebody said:
I'm confused about what your specific complaints are now.

You started complaining that Molly hasn't changed the setting enough.

Multiple people pointed out several things Molly has done that are impactful--both of the direct murder kind and the social kind.

You dismiss her social achievements as being meaningless (Cauldron) and that the killy stuff is also unsatisfying since it's just preserving the status quo. You amend your initial complaint to specifically reference that she hasn't made as big of a splash as Dresden

People then point out how Dresden has been in this for muuuccchh longer. Even then his broader social impact isn't really that much larger than what Molly has done in months and most of his achievements are focused on killing shit that seeks to disrupt the status quo (by killing people)

Your response is that's its okay for Dresden since he's the "chosen one" but not for Molly? I'm seriously scratching my head here. I'd think you viewing Dresden as a chosen one would mean your expectations are higher, not lower
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As I said, firefrog doesn't care about the facts (which were explained by several people) he has a narrative and is trying to sell it, even if his reasoning twists like a preztel to justify it.
 
Azais said:
As I said, firefrog doesn't care about the facts (which were explained by several people) he has a narrative and is trying to sell it, even if his reasoning twists like a preztel to justify it.
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You didn't even reply to my comment about you bullshiting a comment about dp saying I'm wrong. Which is not even what he said you just made shit up. Murders not fucking change to the setting its helpful for a select few people.
 
firefrog600 said:
You didn't even reply to my comment about you bullshiting a comment about dp saying I'm wrong. Which is not even what he said you just made shit up. Murders not fucking change to the setting its helpful for a select few people.
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I cannot say your feelings on the matter are wrong without sounding overbearing, but I do think the subject has run its course for now. If you want Molly to do things that are more obviously impactful well the quest is not going anywhere. You guys can vote on it
 
DragonParadox said:
I cannot say your feelings on the matter are wrong without sounding overbearing, but I do think the subject has run its course for now. If you want Molly to do things that are more obviously impactful well the quest is not going anywhere. You guys can vote on it
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thats fair I don't like the made up comment they made though of something that never happened. Like you literally mentioned which supernatural world and that individuals would care about things if we perfectly explained things. What the fuck does that have to do with the greater world or disagreeing with what I said? People would probably also say we've made a difference when we say we've saved peoples lives. My whole comment was about the setting not people. We've murdered and we cured a couple people. Dresdens arguably done more in some books than we've done for the world good and bad. We can do the exact same thing we just haven't yet. Given I'd argue that we've done as much as dresden did in some books. Like I'd argue some of what we've done would be important as the first and second book on a small scale which those books were more about. Its perfectly fun and all I just am hoping we can do more for the setting this whole conversation started with me mentioning for the greater setting we haven't done much and maybe the hell can do something about it. We've pulled buffy style adventure and I'm not sure I like that as the main thing for this quest.
 
[X] Both

DragonParadox said:
I would say 'ask IC', but Molly isn't quite at the point of shouting that at the heavens. :V
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No, not shouting at the heavens. Just some simple prayer. Her prayers would just be scaling to the level of events in her life.

DragonParadox said:
What you are describing would fill books.
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Maybe we should start with the little girl who has read all the books then?

DragonParadox said:
Put a person in front of Molly, friend or foe and she will dissect their intimacies, manipulate their desires and turn their hopes to her own ends.
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Sounds like useful skills for delegating to competent people we can trust.

Nemonowan said:
Damn, Charity really doesn't like Harry, does she?
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uju32 said:
So if he's dreading Charity's cookies, she deliberately made him a bad batch.
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I read that as the cookies were great, but Harry has only been lucky enough to have them once.
Those are completely opposite readings. DragonParadox?
 
firefrog600 said:
thats fair I don't like the made up comment they made though of something that never happened. Like you literally mentioned which supernatural world and that individuals would care about things if we perfectly explained things. What the fuck does that have to do with the greater world or disagreeing with what I said? People would probably also say we've made a difference when we say we've saved peoples lives. My whole comment was about the setting not people. We've murdered and we cured a couple people. Dresdens arguably done more in some books than we've done for the world good and bad. We can do the exact same thing we just haven't yet. Given I'd argue that we've done as much as dresden did in some books. Like I'd argue some of what we've done would be important as the first and second book on a small scale which those books were more about. Its perfectly fun and all I just am hoping we can do more for the setting this whole conversation started with me mentioning for the greater setting we haven't done much and maybe the hell can do something about it. We've pulled buffy style adventure and I'm not sure I like that as the main thing for this quest.
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I suspect the point is something like this: in the hypothetical world of perfect transparency where everyone knew everything you did and everything Dresden did as well as the implications of all those things Molly be doing pretty well by comparison. Just to give an example if an ancient Finnish god of the oceans were tear itself fully into reality in Cleveland it would cause as much if not more immediate mass death than the Darkhallow because unlike Cowl it would keep killing people until either the population has left the area or sufficient blood sacrifices have been instituted.

This is meant as an explanation not criticism

Anaja said:
I read that as the cookies were great, but Harry has only been lucky enough to have them once.
Those are completely opposite readings. DragonParadox?
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You are right on that one, the cookies are good, Harry got them only once because Molly grabbed a couple and then 'realized she was not hungry' and left them on the table next to him.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I suspect the point is something like this: in the hypothetical world of perfect transparency where everyone knew everything you did and everything Dresden did as well as the implications of all those things Molly be dong pretty well by comparison. Just to give an example if an ancient Finnish god of the oceans were tear itself fully into reality in Cleveland it would cause as much if not more immediate mass death than the Darkhallow because unlike Cowl it would keep killing people until either the population has left the area or sufficient blood sacrifices have been instituted.

This is meant as an explanation not criticism
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Totally fair I do think its still a lot of same old though not much of anything dresdens not done yet. Definitely good deeds offhand you written down any consequences of said actions? Cause I'm fairly sure beings like cowl and their allies had plans and such which you know might end even worse now that ones dead. Like for example I'm not sure killing nicodemus is a good idea the dude seems like he has some greater goal and I'm not even sure its necessarily something pure evil. Have you made any suppositions what said goals are cause I'm fairly sure its not rule the world or anything like that?
 
Ok, was there a visible change on global scale?
As of one update ago it could be argued that no, there wasn't.

But, as I said, it was one update ago.
Taking "King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell" very much is a global change, even if it will go unnoticed by the muggles, the powerful people will know that things changed forever.

And Molly was/is a baby Exalt. One who had her powers for just half an year, and Exalted under three points of Essence do not really have the tools to invoke global changes.

This said, like pointed out by multiple people before, in this half an year Molly made changes comparable to Harry, a senior wizard being at it for twenty years, and her father, a Knight of the Cross, being at his calling for decades as well. Not too shabby for the meantime, I would say.

Edit:
It was not meant to be funny, by the way.
 
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firefrog600 said:
Totally fair I do think its still a lot of same old though not much of anything dresdens not done yet. Definitely good deeds offhand you written down any consequences of said actions? Cause I'm fairly sure beings like cowl and their allies had plans and such which you know might end even worse now that ones dead. Like for example I'm not sure killing nicodemus is a good idea the dude seems like he has some greater goal and I'm not even sure its necessarily something pure evil. Have you made any suppositions what said goals are cause I'm fairly sure its not rule the world or anything like that?
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Sure, but at the point where you are trying to guess what the bad guy would do with the power up he did not get any kind of collective predictive capacity breaks down. A hypothetical audience would not know how much they have been saved if that makes sense.
 
tenchifew said:
Ok, was there a noticeable change on global scale?
As of one update ago it could be argued that no, there wasn't.

But, as I said, it was one update ago.
Taking "King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell" very much is a global change, even if it will go unnoticed by the muggles, the powerful people will know that things changed forever.

And Molly was/is a baby Exalted. One who had her powers for just half an year, and Exalted under three points of Essence do not really have the tools to invoke global changes as well.

This said, like pointed out by multiple people before, in this half an year Molly made changes comparable to Harry, a senior wizard being at it for twenty years, and her father, a Knight of the Cross, being at his calling for decades as well. Not bad for the meantime, I would say.
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In fairness I didn't say what we've done is pointless the entire conversation was discussion about the setting or chicago as a whole. There's plenty of big changes I think we could make if we chose too within the next dozen or two updates. That'd be fairly quick. Probably not the best idea without some charms. I imagine we could gather a bunch of undertown together under our aegis, lay down ground rules, give things, etc etc. I do kinda want the wish charm for that though so we can offer things. Also you know I don't think mollys quite willing to go full war on the underground communities. Also maybe a thing or two down there that could kick our ass sure dp would have to make them up I can totally see them existing though.
DragonParadox said:
Sure, but at the point where you are trying to guess what the bad guy would do with the power up he did not get any kind of collective predictive capacity breaks down. A hypothetical audience would not know how much they have been saved if that makes sense.
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Oh probably was just curious if you've like written down greater goals for said villains I'm sure plenty of allies goals conflict. Also some are most definitely nemesis infected. Uh offhand you have any idea what would happen when we eventually cure a nemesis infected human cause I'm not sure their minds will be as intact as humans? Also like Nicky definitely has bigger aspirations than just villainy around the world he wants something.
 
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firefrog600 said:
Oh probably was just curious if you've like written down greater goals for said villains I'm sure plenty of allies goals conflict. Also some are most definitely nemesis infected. Uh offhand you have any idea what would happen when we eventually cure a nemesis infected human cause I'm not sure their minds will be as intact as humans? Also like Nicky definitely has bigger aspirations than just villainy around the world he wants something.
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Yes, villains have goals and for that matter so so NPC who are not villains. I have half a page written on Senior Council politicking to be expanded if you guys ever decide to poke that or if background rolls push you in that direction for instance.
 
firefrog600 said:
In fairness I didn't say what we've done is pointless the entire conversation was discussion about the setting or chicago as a whole. There's plenty of big changes I think we could make if we chose too within the next dozen or two updates. That'd be fairly quick. Probably not the best idea without some charms. I imagine we could gather a bunch of undertown together under our aegis, lay down ground rules, give things, etc etc. I do kinda want the wish charm for that though so we can offer things. Also you know I don't think mollys quite willing to go full war on the underground communities. Also maybe a thing or two down there that could kick our ass sure dp would have to make them up I can totally see them existing though.
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I… honestly do not understand how anything you have written here is in any way an answer to my post.
Not trying to be insulting here, I just really do not see any connection between my post and what you posted after quoting me.
 
tenchifew said:
I… honestly do not understand how anything you have written here is in any way an answer to my post.
Not trying to be insulting here, I just really do not see any connection between my post and what you posted after quoting me.
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fair fair I'm trying to convene my objections never been we've not done shit my objection was previously essentially I don't we've done much for the wider setting. I'd like more of that. The what I was quoting afterwards had nothing to do with you. Also as for it not being so bad never said it was its pretty nice what we've done for individuals I just want more than buffy style adventures.
 
anyone want to eventually poke the council? What do you think would happen if we pointed out whose nemesis infected in front of everyone?
 
Goldfish said:
I have a feeling the White Council will probably try to poke us before we poke them.
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I wonder how it'd even go down if we just walked in and used a question on the area of what are the true and false names of everyone infected by outsiders whose walked in these halls. Given we could ask for everyone whose worked for outsiders but there's enough level of separation between infected that basically anyone who serves an infected or summoned outsiders before would be counted.
 
DragonParadox said:
The charm you have is that charm, there just isn't enough Essence for it in this age of the world so it's running at lower power.
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How is the universe so large with such low essence anyhow? Also so many new alien species? As far as I know the age of legends world was objectively far far smaller right? Like in whitewolf you could at least say that maybe the universe isn't actually as big as it looks.

Edit: Didn't exalted have a plotline about the wyld eating creations land? By comparison this world is infinite times bigger?
 
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firefrog600 said:
How is the universe so large with such low essence anyhow? Also so many new alien species? As far as I know the age of legends world was objectively far far smaller right? Like in whitewolf you could at least say that maybe the universe isn't actually as big as it looks.
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We don't know how large the universe was before Primordial War. She Who Lives in Her Name, one of the Primordials the Principle of Hierarchy, mutilated herself at the end of the war, which caused 90% of everything to be removed from Creation. And by everything I don't mean "volume of space". I mean "90 % of concepts that make up Creation". Concepts like color, space, friendship, linear time (those obviously weren't removed, but I am just giving examples of the type of things that have been deleted).

In Gunstar Autochtonia, a canonical what-if where Sol surrendered to Theion, Spiral (Creation before the War) was at least galaxy-scaled.
 
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