Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
I don't trust the Sun to use this to harm the Jungle rather than help her.
[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.
[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.
- Location
- the internet
Touching this whole situation seems unwise. She has an idea of more of the truth than the people actually involved but she couldn't tell anyone anyway. She promised Ji Rong so she's not even telling CRX. for LQ, who's all about sincerity, it would be a fine line to walk. Thats not the only reason either, the whole thing is messy, complicated and we've got more than enough on our plate already.
You guys understand that this vote isn't about getting the rituals for sure, right?
It's about asking Dzintara to give them to us. To which she is going to say no.
Because, as she just explained, she doesn't trust the Empire's ability to keep agreements and is still dubious about the the Western Territories.
So asking her now, as if we hadn't been listening to her concerns, it's just going to result offensive.
This is like the couple Emissaries of the Seared Lands coming now and asking us to give the Han's geomancy before the Summit.
It would give the impression that they are trying to secure some benefit as contingency in the case of a fall out during the Summit. If we agreed, we would be worried that they would try so hard to make the Summit suceed as they coould.
That's the impression we are going to give.
Geomancy, rituals, astronomy, history and so on; all these kinds of knowledge are a bargaining chip for both sides, and so they should be discussed during the summit itself. Right now is enough to express the WT's possible interest in them. We don't even know if they would actually be interested, btw. In which case all this is moot. The WT may be perfectly content with stubbornly adhering to their method (kill anything that gets too close) instead of using outsider's rituals. In that case, we are risking upsetting Dzintara over no benefit whatsoever.
Ling Qi just said that stablishing a mutually recognized arbitray system is going to be the core of the Summit discussions.
One of the roles of such system will include negotiating and managing the exchange of culture and knowledge. Under the MoI watchful approval, of course.
This is not something Ling Qi should be requesting now without the other's players input. This is a matter for the Summit itself.
It's about asking Dzintara to give them to us. To which she is going to say no.
Because, as she just explained, she doesn't trust the Empire's ability to keep agreements and is still dubious about the the Western Territories.
So asking her now, as if we hadn't been listening to her concerns, it's just going to result offensive.
This is like the couple Emissaries of the Seared Lands coming now and asking us to give the Han's geomancy before the Summit.
It would give the impression that they are trying to secure some benefit as contingency in the case of a fall out during the Summit. If we agreed, we would be worried that they would try so hard to make the Summit suceed as they coould.
That's the impression we are going to give.
Geomancy, rituals, astronomy, history and so on; all these kinds of knowledge are a bargaining chip for both sides, and so they should be discussed during the summit itself. Right now is enough to express the WT's possible interest in them. We don't even know if they would actually be interested, btw. In which case all this is moot. The WT may be perfectly content with stubbornly adhering to their method (kill anything that gets too close) instead of using outsider's rituals. In that case, we are risking upsetting Dzintara over no benefit whatsoever.
Ling Qi just said that stablishing a mutually recognized arbitray system is going to be the core of the Summit discussions.
One of the roles of such system will include negotiating and managing the exchange of culture and knowledge. Under the MoI watchful approval, of course.
This is not something Ling Qi should be requesting now without the other's players input. This is a matter for the Summit itself.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.
Edit: switching to abstaining, not sure anymore on my preference here
Edit: switching to abstaining, not sure anymore on my preference here
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- Location
- CA
1) If she says no, she says no. If she takes offense, then she takes offense while this is still a personal, small-scale communication, where it can be addressed. We even have Jaromila present, who might mediate any such minor conflict.
2) If asking is an indication that Ling Qi has given up on the wider summit and is trying to get smaller benefits, then it makes her actions nonsensical, because she's an Expression cultivator who has taken the lead and repeatedly talked about how and why this is important. Secretly believing otherwise would require a lot of lying. If this ask is a transparent sign that she's attempting to bail out, then we're assuming that our Twisted Pines counterpart thinks that she is both a master liar while simultaneously ALSO being completely transparent in her motivations. If she currently views Ling Qi with that degree of utter contempt then it really doesn't matter what we do or say from here on out, does it?
3) This isn't something that's going from everyone to everyone, it's a small-scale trade from group A to group B of goods which have essentially no use to groups C through Z. There's no reason it should be brought up at the main table, because it doesn't concern 90% of the players there EXCEPT insofar as it can be used as a political bludgeon to advance their own causes. Bringing it up there makes something this small-scale less likely to happen, not more, because it makes it so much more entangled in the rest of the politics. If we were trying to use it as political theater then it might be useful at the main table ("look! Twisted Pines and the Sun are being reasonable and acting in pursuit of mutual gain and cooperation!"), but so far as I'm aware we're focused on doing this for practical reasons, so we want to keep it simple.
[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.
[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.
I don't find the argument that we should pass on the issue now because it's definitely going to piss people off convincing. Or even coherent, really. If it's the kind of thing that's definitely going to piss people off, we don't want it unfolding raw in our damn summit. That's genuinely a dumb strategy. Especially because we've chosen to allow Imperial parties to conduct meetings with White Sky parties without our supervision. We're handling scheduling, we're not going to consistently attend to offer our expertise in mediating talks.
End of the day, Ling Qi doesn't want conflict between the Sun and the Tangled Pines, and she does want to minimize risks of it. If we think there isn't a big risk of Zmeya escalating tensions one way or another, then we should pass on the matter. If we think the topic is very likely to be contentious, then we should weight in now to preemptively course correct.
Passing on it now is explicitly the decision that Ling Qi doesn't think the matter is a big deal overall. Rejecting the opportunity here on the grounds that it's too big a deal is incompatible with Ling Qi's thought processes. It simply doesn't make any sense.
End of the day, Ling Qi doesn't want conflict between the Sun and the Tangled Pines, and she does want to minimize risks of it. If we think there isn't a big risk of Zmeya escalating tensions one way or another, then we should pass on the matter. If we think the topic is very likely to be contentious, then we should weight in now to preemptively course correct.
Passing on it now is explicitly the decision that Ling Qi doesn't think the matter is a big deal overall. Rejecting the opportunity here on the grounds that it's too big a deal is incompatible with Ling Qi's thought processes. It simply doesn't make any sense.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.
[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.
Or we can look at it from another angle.
The Sun are involved and prominent in the summit, that much is clear at this point. We wouldn't have had the word count on the Sun/Western Territory like we have if that wasn't the case. But what's it connected to? Narratively, I mean; how are we engaging with it?
The Sun plot isn't a great match for the Imperial politics plot, because we don't know the deal with the Sun in the Imperial court, or with their allies the Jin, right now. There's room for something with the MoI maybe, but... we don't actually want to promote the idea that the MoI should be cracking down on provinces for their strange dealings with foreign cultural concepts. We also don't want to carry water for the Sun. We also can't share the most critical information we have. Plot goes nowhere useful.
The Sun plot doesn't work with our Internal provincial politicking because we don't know anything about the relationship between the Meng and the Sun, which is the only clan we know might actually have one, and who has an interest in how things shake out at the Wall, being relatively close to them.
The question of Western Territory and Tangled Pines is different. It's fresh. We're getting information on and from both sides. There's issues in the middle of them that affect us. We don't really have a lot of tools to affect those goings on, but there's actually a story happening that's accessible to us since we know about it! That's better than the Sun plot stuff has anywhere else, so far. So I don't think it makes a lot of sense to pass on that too.
If we ignore everything the Sun are adjacent to, it either defeats the purpose of their involvement or it'll screw us over in some way to justify their presence. Neither is great, really.
A wise man once said, "Do the thing!" and I think that's the best option here.
The Sun are involved and prominent in the summit, that much is clear at this point. We wouldn't have had the word count on the Sun/Western Territory like we have if that wasn't the case. But what's it connected to? Narratively, I mean; how are we engaging with it?
The Sun plot isn't a great match for the Imperial politics plot, because we don't know the deal with the Sun in the Imperial court, or with their allies the Jin, right now. There's room for something with the MoI maybe, but... we don't actually want to promote the idea that the MoI should be cracking down on provinces for their strange dealings with foreign cultural concepts. We also don't want to carry water for the Sun. We also can't share the most critical information we have. Plot goes nowhere useful.
The Sun plot doesn't work with our Internal provincial politicking because we don't know anything about the relationship between the Meng and the Sun, which is the only clan we know might actually have one, and who has an interest in how things shake out at the Wall, being relatively close to them.
The question of Western Territory and Tangled Pines is different. It's fresh. We're getting information on and from both sides. There's issues in the middle of them that affect us. We don't really have a lot of tools to affect those goings on, but there's actually a story happening that's accessible to us since we know about it! That's better than the Sun plot stuff has anywhere else, so far. So I don't think it makes a lot of sense to pass on that too.
If we ignore everything the Sun are adjacent to, it either defeats the purpose of their involvement or it'll screw us over in some way to justify their presence. Neither is great, really.
A wise man once said, "Do the thing!" and I think that's the best option here.
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Yeah there's basically no benefit to putting this off and futzing around with things here. We're in the middle of doing Sun/Pines related stuff. Let's just do the thing rather than messing around and putting it off so it has to be reintroduced and messed around with again next turn.
- Location
- The Space Between
[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.
Forming a working relationship with all of the Imperial provinces should be something we want in a perfect world, even though we don't live in a perfect world. Guo were too busy to send a representative, Jin chose not to (at least, outwardly), but everybody else did show up. When we see ways to engage with fellow ducals, we should at least make the effort.
This one specifically is building on the narrative momentum we already have going in regards to WT and Pines
Negotiations directly with Sun Liling are going to be . . difficult for the foreseeable future. We already have established a back channel with Ji Rong by doing him a solid, and this advances that. As fellow Imperials, as fellow street kids, as fellow commoner-talent retainers to heirs-that-will-have-to-overthrow-their-genius-family-heads, making a positive effort should be helpful to our long term political goals. This whole event is formative for our stepping onto the broader political stage, and that includes inter-provincial politics like working with WT.
We have inserted ourselves as a linchpin in Empire-PolarNation relations and if we want to get more buy-in we should get involved in as many projects such as these as we can reasonably carry. It will be a boon to both ourselves and Jaromila if we end up being point-contact for Empire-PolarNation diplomacy going forward, and help our two provinces at the same time. Now will the Pines and WT have an amicable/respectful relationship? Will GF and their corresponding Polar province even make contact? Who knows. But it's in our interest to attempt to facilitate that contact/buy-in.
This is an easy opportunity to present what WT might potentially find helpful away from Liling's whole . . . thing. The deal with Ji Rong already will make the Sun's presence at the summit much more manageable, this would be a way to further manage it or even turn it into a boon.
Forming a working relationship with all of the Imperial provinces should be something we want in a perfect world, even though we don't live in a perfect world. Guo were too busy to send a representative, Jin chose not to (at least, outwardly), but everybody else did show up. When we see ways to engage with fellow ducals, we should at least make the effort.
This one specifically is building on the narrative momentum we already have going in regards to WT and Pines
Negotiations directly with Sun Liling are going to be . . difficult for the foreseeable future. We already have established a back channel with Ji Rong by doing him a solid, and this advances that. As fellow Imperials, as fellow street kids, as fellow commoner-talent retainers to heirs-that-will-have-to-overthrow-their-genius-family-heads, making a positive effort should be helpful to our long term political goals. This whole event is formative for our stepping onto the broader political stage, and that includes inter-provincial politics like working with WT.
We have inserted ourselves as a linchpin in Empire-PolarNation relations and if we want to get more buy-in we should get involved in as many projects such as these as we can reasonably carry. It will be a boon to both ourselves and Jaromila if we end up being point-contact for Empire-PolarNation diplomacy going forward, and help our two provinces at the same time. Now will the Pines and WT have an amicable/respectful relationship? Will GF and their corresponding Polar province even make contact? Who knows. But it's in our interest to attempt to facilitate that contact/buy-in.
This is an easy opportunity to present what WT might potentially find helpful away from Liling's whole . . . thing. The deal with Ji Rong already will make the Sun's presence at the summit much more manageable, this would be a way to further manage it or even turn it into a boon.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
I expressed confusion in the discord and got this response
"Side things" being the side convos between main talks we said we'd just schedule for people.
Response isn't surprising I guess since that's how the vote frames things too, basically. Still, including it for maximum information.
yrsillar said:
"Side things" being the side convos between main talks we said we'd just schedule for people.
Response isn't surprising I guess since that's how the vote frames things too, basically. Still, including it for maximum information.