Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

With our backdoor channel with Ji Rong, I would actually want to get Rites and Wards effective at keeping them from work sites and give the information through that channel rather than have it be on the negotiating table. The biggest issue for Pines at the negotiating table is going to be about the sacred sites and they've already voiced how the Zmeya of 2 heads are mindless and their deaths in small numbers are fine especially if they pruned some jungle beforehand. This is something tangible we can bring to Ji Rong as we attempt to get reassurance that Western Territories won't be pushing up into The Wall and plundering sacred sites. Non-aggression is great, but Unity of Blades is all about finding camaraderie with soldiers fighting the same fight as you.

From what we talked about with the soldiery, they mostly care about living a good human life and fighting back The Sunflower Goddess. Passing over some Rites/Wards/Information to Ji Rong that can help guard the "small folk" from "nuisances" that are, importantly, not part of The Jungle is great. Exposing them to a culture whose foundational myth and sublime ancestor are Self-Sacrifice To Fight The Sunflower Goddess is something that many should resonate with. I think it's in the interest of long term goals to help connect Pines and Western Territories through the shared efforts of beating up the jungle. Dzintara immediately notices that you cannot defeat The Sunflower by the methods Western Territories are using, but that sort of debate is separate from minimizing friction between both groups that are fighting a common enemy. Especially if we can chill xenophobic attitudes towards them by portraying them as fellow fighters of The Jungle.

I'm a bit more ambivalent/negative about giving this information directly to Sun Liling though. We know how Ji Rong would treat the information, while I'm uncertain how Sun Liling would react. In Ji Rong's hands the information has a very good chance of doing good, and while he's not the best with words he'll at least know how to sell it to Liling and his people.

. . . assuming they'd want the information anyway. and I guess that's where the vote falters towards "let it go" for me. We have no guarantee that WT would want or use the information anyway. Rites and Wards will piss off the MoI if they find out, and the gains are somewhat nebulous.

Eh.
[ ] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.
Better to have more information than not. The vote is purely about whether we press for information, not about what we do with the information. I think this is an easy attempt at a win for one of our Imperial factions, and it's just asking right? How offended will they really get over simply asking?
-thinks about how their rune/geomancy works-
Hmm, might have compatibility issues anyway. Ah well. I'd rather ask than not.

[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.

We want the WT to be invested in not attacking the Sublime, the White Sky's sacred sites, and their sacred beasts. Giving them this small nugget about something they're all avoiding is a tiny amount of goodwill which would give us a lot, IMO. Plus, it seems the Twisted Pines may have some inaccurate info about the Zmeya, and this would be a good way to introduce it and calm any tempers before the actual summit. Again, a small piece of goodwill that can go far.

Plus, for all our background talks in preparation for the summit, there's always been SOME talk about what the other side wants beforehand so that we can come prepared and make things go smoothly. This shouldn't be different, IMO.

Plus, bringing the WT and the Twisted Pines will help both sides fight the Jungle and even help expose Shao's alliance with the Jungle, which is good, IMO.

Finally, any and all talk about pissing off the MoI makes no sense in this context since we're negotiating personal exchanges. Though it's secondary, the whole cover for the summit is a cultural exchange, and this can cover it. This also won't be the first time we'll have adapted "barbarian" rites and rituals to great effect too. Just look at Li Suyin, who's helping us fight an underground alliance using "barbarian" cloud tribe knowledge. Hell, even the Jin do it. Though it's more "Let's loot these ignorant savages who know not what they possess and build on it".

Also, @PowerLeca has brought up an excellent point about Thief of Names' possible limits as we go up, but I hope that when we finalise the art and as we eventually cultivate/master it, this limitation would go down. I also love that LQ is starting to realise the limitations of her Way, and what might make her break. She's not blind to them, so we can work around them or think of ways to make them strengths.

Also also, I love that meeting the White Sky has expanded access to other cultures by land, so the Jin/Xuan/rare Bai/Zheng explorer won't be the only people to know of them. We're connecting the cultivation world!!!

[ ] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.

The information on their ranges and habits is more of a Spirit Seeker approach, and that's not really the Sun's purview. But they live in the Jungle, so putting up wards and using protective rituals are already in their SOP. In this case, if we just hand them something they can neatly slot in, then they're more likely to treat the Sublime's territory as a part of the Jungle that's currently too dangerous to clear and leave it alone, rather than as a new problem which needs active managing.

Sometimes you don't need people's tolerance, you just need their disinterest. This is one of those times.

Aklyon said:

This is not our problem to push on. If the Sun want more info to fight with, they can negotiate instead.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The point, though, is if we have that info we might trade it to the Sun for other consessions to us.

Yes, having the rites to ward against the Zmeya would be a great boon for the WT.
The question is, why would Dzintara give them away now?

She has already made it perfectly clear that she isn't concerned about the pass. The sublime ancestor herself is hardly going to be at risk. She doesn't care about the lesser Zmeya being hunted, and the greater ones are safe unless the Sun makes a pretty big incursion, which she thinks would be foolish. Since no one under cyan can't even get close to the thorn brush, I agree that it sounds pretty unlikely.

So, why would she share anything for free? A "show of good faith" doesn't really cut it. She is going to want compensation of some kind, but, as of rigth now, we don't have any leverage to offer her anything.
Even attempting to get them now, asking for her to share her tribe's knowledge before we have proven our trustworthiness, is just going to put her in a bad mood. As if we hadn't listened to her concerns about the Empire's governing system. Its ability to uphold pacts and agreements in particular.

The know-how of the rituals should be exchanged inside the context of the resolution system we intend to implement in the summit proper next turn. Establishing proper channels of communications and clear conditions on how the rituals may be used.
That's how we can assuage the Pines that the knowledge won't be abused or exploited.
Personal connections are important, but this isn't the kind of knowledge Ling Qi should be managing and relaying on her own without supervision. Definitely not something we deliver to Ji Rong.
I feel this is the kind of underhanded "cultural contamination" the MoI would object to.

Just like we aren't going to give the Han's anti-cataclysm geomancy knowledge to the Seared Lands on a personal meeting by ourselves before the Summit itself. We are going to bring it up as a chip in the negotiations.
Why would Dzinatara do otherwise?

[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.

[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.

[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.

Ideally, we'd signal to Dzintara that the warding knowledge would be valuable to us now, and not expect any delivery until we'd haggled an exchange at the map table.

It's more efficient if we give them some time to gather the information for delivery after haggling.

I don't think Dzintara would begrudge anyone who wished to protect their people from some low-level ambient effects of the Sundering Vale, but I wonder whether the WT would value the knowledge even if presented favorably by Ji Rong.

[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.

Because remember - retaliating against endless attacks from a source they cannot defeat is how they got into their current mess to begin with.
They need ways to avoid being attacked or they're going to repeat history eventually and try to destroy the source.

[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.

[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.

I would prefer this sort of direct cultural exchange to not be done at the main table, MoI would hate it. In addition, I'm not sure Liling would go for it in her current state and we definitely don't want Pines and WT to start on an antagonistic foot.

We ended up making a joint place for the ducals to do negotiating with the territories of their own accord, right? I guess I can see the argument to use that channel instead of the main table or a fully back-channel

[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.

[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.

makes sense I guess. Though I was inclined to let it go, hopefully this'll help Ji Rong in some way.

[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.
[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.

[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.

[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.

We are almost certainly going to have things we want more. Let's avoid possible offense for now, since we noted that was a possible consequence of asking.

[X] Let it go for now, exchanges can be negotiated at the map table.