Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Its too risky, even the smallet ill-intent will activate the protection or one of the mortal doing something stupid will make Molly suspicious and even then if Mab sent a creature of darkness by mistake we would have noticed. Due to that and the surprise Mab have at the beginning of the meeting meaning that she isnt spying on us constantly, that she used a charm to find the most suitable gift for us from her reserves.
Mab uses Harry as an Emissary in part because he isn't bound to Winter.
Which lends him certain advantages, in addition to
And her ability to scry people at range has been explicitly demonstrated in canon.

I flat-out guarantee that she's been keeping tabs on us.

Especially in Chicago, which is infested with Fae, both Fae aligned with the Courts and Wyldfae.
Remember that Dresden was able to raise a militia of a quarter million Wyldfae to defend Chicago in Battle Grounds; for comparison, Chicago's RL population is around 2.8 million.
I dont really like the stunt, but thats a question of style.
Im more concerned about the idea of not naming Nemesis; this is a situation where we want her to be very clear what we're referring to.

...
Do you think there is any chance that Winter lets us out of their sight, assuming they believe out words? I imagine we're leaving this meeting with her in one way or another and not coming back for quite some time. Dad or Harry be damned.

I'm not saying we don't do this but... yeah... I think we'll be vanishing off of the face of the earth for a fair few turns.
Nemesis is not a secret to those in the know.
The events around Mab becoming Queen aren't that long ago for the immortals of the setting.

Those who know what's up realized as far back as Book 4 Summer Knight what it would have taken to make Aurora betray Summer like that, even if Dresden was too ignorant to realize it.
And they have some idea why the Leanansidhe is in confinement.

And in canon, in the immediate aftermath of Cold Days, Mab didn't throw all the humans and fae who were witnesses into confinement.

Besides, we're guests, guaranteed by Mab and Winter's guarantees.
Mab would sooner eat her own tongue than break her word.
 
Don't know if it works for Cauldron. It has to use used by someone without power. So one of our younger siblings seems like the target. Stop them from being abducted by fletches. Which is likely the idea Mab had in mind.
Cauldron has plenty of kids related to their members.
We've met some of them.

And nobody is fucking with our underage siblings anyway.
Even the Denarians have generally left Michael's family alone.
There's a reason for that.
 
Any chance we happen to have a stylistics genius in the Jade Dogs?
Maeve has style.
I dont really like the stunt, but thats a question of style.
Im more concerned about the idea of not naming Nemesis; this is a situation where we want her to be very clear what we're referring to.
It's explicit that naming it attracts its attention. And I am saying "not use its name". I don't want an infected to port in, kneel and proclaim their allegiance to the heir of Yozi in front of Mab. It's not a high chance (I expect it serves Neverborn instead), but I don't want to risk it.

@DragonParadox what would Molly be rolling to refer to Nemesis without mentioning it by name and be understood? Expression? Subterfuge? Or will it just work? What would Mab roll to understand us?
 
Which is kind of funny because Lydia isn't what I would call good. I mean yeah she has sympathy for the dead and she values her friends, but push comes to shove she still got her morals from one of the Old Gods, directly and by reading material plus the kind of tutors he hired. If someone gets into a legitimate deadly feud with her Lydia would treat it like it's 60 AD and she is queen of the Iceni.
Thats entirely appropriate for the supernatural world actually.
Dresden probably wouldn't see much wrong in that kind of response, depending on who the target is.
After all, Harry is the guy who introduced himself to the Winter Court by freezing and shattering some dude who spoke out of turn.

I mean, Lydia's direct celestial upgrade is some kind of Abyssal lookalike. Of course she's not exactly good.
Less Abyssal, more Liminal.

It's explicit that naming it attracts its attention. And I am saying "not use its name". I don't want an infected to port in, kneel and proclaim their allegiance to the heir of Yozi in front of Mab. It's not a high chance (I expect it serves Neverborn instead), but I don't want to risk it.

@DragonParadox what would Molly be rolling to refer to Nemesis without mentioning it by name and be understood? Expression? Subterfuge? Or will it just work? What would Mab roll to understand us?
Citation?
Because that wasn't true in canon. Furthermore, Nemesis is what its known by as a substitute for its name.
Its a Walker; it has a name.
 
Okay.
Cold Days c30
Titania didn't turn to face me. Her voice was weary. "My heart tells me that all things end." She paused. "But this thing I will tell a Winter Knight who believes in freedom: You must learn greater discretion. The power you have come to know and fear has a name. One should know the proper names of things."
She turned and walked toward me. My body told me to run like hell, but I told it to shut up, that my legs were shaking too hard anyway. Titania leaned up onto her toes and whispered, very close to my ear.
"Nemesis," she breathed. "Speak it carefully—or it may hear you."

I blinked. "It . . . it what?"
With that she turned and began walking away. "Fare thee well, wizard. You say that people should be free. I agree. I will not shackle you with my wisdom. Make your choices. Choose what the world is to be. I care not. There is little light left in it for me, thanks to you."

This is a neutral venue, and we're in the presence of the Queen of Winter.
And specifically, of her privacy wards/spells. Wards strong enough to stop the Fallen Angel Anduriel from spying on conversations in her presence.

This place is as secure as it can be made, short of the Mothers or an Angel directly taking a hand.
We can speak freely here.

Besides, Molly personally has nothing directly to fear from Nemesis.
Cant possess her, and attacking her is not going to work very well when she can either fly or stab you with an Agg blade.
 
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I don't think we know that Mab has a mobile anti-scrying/Intellectus aura around her.

If Titania had to whisper it directly into the ear to avoid Nemesis hearing its name being spoken, on top of all the defences she has as Mab's peer, then us relatively loudly speaking it out loud is presumably problematic.
 
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Okay.
Cold Days c30


This is a neutral venue, and we're in the presence of the Queen of Winter.
And specifically, of her privacy wards/spells. Wards strong enough to stop the Fallen Angel Anduriel from spying on conversations in her presence.

This place is as secure as it can be made, short of the Mothers or an Angel directly taking a hand.
We can speak freely here.

Besides, Molly personally has nothing directly to fear from Nemesis.
Cant possess her, and attacking her is not going to work very well when she can either fly or stab you with an Agg blade.
Thanks, I was actually ready to concede, because I couldn't find this quote. Still, an important point is that we are not just someone. We are an Infernal Exalt. Our voice echoes. Even in Mab's presence, even under an angel's wards, this time I prefer to fail on the side of caution in this. The element of surprise is paramount here.

At worst, we should be rolling 6 dice (Manipulation + Expression + WHWH + 1 die stunt) to convey what we mean. At best, it's subterfuge, and Molly uses excellency. I think we can reasonably expect 1 success at least.
 
I don't think we know that Mab has a mobile anti-scrying/Intellectus aura around her.

If Titania had to whisper it directly into the ear to avoid Nemesis hearing its name being spoken, on top of all the defences she has as Mab's peer, then us relatively loudly speaking it out loud is presumably problematic.
She explicitly does.
Skin Game chapter 44
Skin Game chapter 44: Dresden and Odin said:
Normally, Mac's does a brisk trade, but today there was a sign on the door that read: CLOSED FOR PRIVATE PARTY. A second sign hung inside the door, a wooden one, into which the words ACCORDED NEUTRAL TERRITORY had been neatly burned. It meant that the establishment was officially neutral ground under the guidelines of the Unseelie Accords, what amounted to the Geneva Convention of the supernatural world. Mab had written the Accords, and their signatories defied them at peril of the antipathy of the supernatural establishment and, worse, her personal displeasure.
One corner of the sign was scorched and cracked, which had happened in a battle with Outsiders, who weren't very civic-minded.
Mac, bald, lean, and silent, stood behind the bar in his usual crisp white shirt and spotless apron. When Mab entered, he put down the rag he was using to polish the wooden bar, and bowed at the waist, somehow giving the gesture an accent of courtesy rather than obeisance.
"Barkeep," Mab replied, and inclined her head considerably more deeply than she had to Nicodemus a few minutes before. "May your patrons be prosperous and honest."
Mac, as a rule, rarely uttered multi-syllables. Today, he said, "May your scales always return to balance."

Her mouth quirked at the corner and she said, "Flatterer."
He smiled and nodded to me. "Harry."
"Mac. I haven't had good food in months. Though, uh, I'm a little short on funds. I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a sandwich and a beer today."
He nodded.
"Thanks."
Mab turned to the table nearest the door and gave me a look. It took me a beat to realize what she wanted, and to pull out a chair for her. She sniffed and sat down, folded her hands in her lap, and stared at nothing in particular, dismissing the rest of us from her world as thoroughly as if she had entered a locked room.
My contact was waiting for me at a table in the back corner, and I walked over to join him. He was a big man by every definition of the word, tall and strong and solid, with a barrel for a chest and a smaller keg of a belly to go with it. His hair and beard were white and silver, though the rosy smoothness of his cheeks belied any indication of old age, and his eyes were blue and bright. He wore a chain-mail shirt and hunting leathers, and a long, hooded red coat trimmed in white fur hung from the back of the chair beside him. A simple, worn-looking broadsword hung at his side, and a large, lumpy leather sack sat on the floor beside him, as natural there as a mail carrier with his bag.
"Sir Knight," he said.
"You're here as Kringle, seriously?" I asked him.
Kringle winked at me. "The Winter Knight called for me in his official capacity as an agent of the Winter Court. Mab has the right to summon Kringle. If she'd called for Vadderung, I'd have told her to get in line."
Donar Vadderung was the name of the CEO of Monoc Securities, a corporate security interest that provided information and highly skilled specialists to those with a great deal of money. Vadderung had access to more information than anyone I knew, except maybe the Senior Council of the White Council of Wizardry-only he was a hell of a lot smarter about using it. He was also, I was reasonably certain, Odin. The Odin. Or if he wasn't, he could do an awfully good impersonation. Oh, and also, he was Santa Claus.
Vadderung is a complicated guy.
"But you and Kringle are the same person," I said.
"Legally speaking, Kringle and Vadderung are two entirely different people who simply happen to reside in the same body," he replied.
"That's just a fiction," I said, "a little game of protocol."
"Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom one does not get along famously well. It can be tedious, but generally is less trouble than a duel would be."

Mac set a couple of his homebrewed beers down on the bar. I rounded them up and returned to the table, putting both bottles out in the middle. Kringle chose one, nodded to the chair across from him, and I sat.
"To start with, I'm going to assume you know everything I do," I said.
His eyes wrinkled at the corners as he took a drink. "That seems wise."
I nodded and sipped my own. Wow. Mac's beer is an excellent argument that there is a God, and that furthermore, He wants us to be happy. I savored it for a couple of seconds and then wrenched my mind back to business. "I want to float some thoughts at you and see if you think they're sound."
"By all means."
"First," I said, "Nicodemus is after something powerful. I don't know what it is, but I do know that if I can get him to tellus what he's after, it's going to be a lie. He'd never let anyone know his true goal if he could help it."
"I concur," Kringle said.
I nodded. "He'll assemble a crew. Some of them will be his people, and some of them will be outside specialists, but I'm pretty sure at least one of them is going to be a plant-they'll look all independent but they'll have one of those Coins on them and one of the Fallen whispering in their ears."
"I would consider that a high probability," Kringle said.
"Third," I said, "he's going to betray me at some point along the line. He's proactive, and obsessed with control, so he'll be the one who wants to stick the knife in first. He knows the limits Mab has placed on me, so he'll want to do it after I've gotten him to wherever he wants to go, but before we finish the job, to guarantee him the first blow."
"Also sound reasoning," Kringle said.
"Dammit," I said. "I had hoped I was wrong about something. If I'm to follow Mab's rules, my options are limited."
Kringle's eyes went to the slender figure at the table by the door. "May I offer you a word of advice, based purely upon my knowledge of the Queen's nature?"
"Sure."

"Mab moves in mysterious ways," he said, looking back at me with a grin. "Nasty, unexpected, devious, patient, and mysterious ways. I don't think she'd throw away a piece as valuable as you on a lost cause. Look for an opening, a weakness. It will be there."
"Have you seen this guy in action?" I asked. "Nicodemus Archleone is. . He's better than me. Smart, dangerous, ruthless, and experienced. All by himself, he'd be bad enough. I've never even seen him go to his bench. All the other Denarians whip out their Fallen buddies left and right, but Nicodemus, as far as I can tell, mostly uses his to chauffeur him around. I've got no idea what Anduriel can do, because Nick has never had to fall back on him."
"Perhaps that's because Nicodemus understands just as well as you do where true power comes from," Kringle said.
I arched an eyebrow at that. "Knowledge," I said. I thought about it, putting pieces together. "Wait. You're telling me that he doesn't use Anduriel in fights because Anduriel isn't a fighter."
"Any of the Fallen are absolutely deadly in battle," Kringle said severely, "even hampered as they are. But the Master of Shadows doesn't prefer to operate that way, no."
Nicodemus's control over the gang of superpowered lunatics was starting to make more sense now. "Master of Shadows. That's an old, old phrase for a spy master."
"Exactly," Kringle said. "Nicodemus knows very nearly as much as I do. Anduriel has the potential to hear anything uttered within reach of any living being's shadow, and sometimes to look out from it and see."
My eyes widened and I looked down at my own shadow on the table.
"No," Kringle said. "That's why Mab remains here, to secure this conversation against Anduriel. But you must exercise extreme discretion for the duration of this scenario. There are places Anduriel cannot reach-your friend Carpenter's home, for example, or your island, now that you have awakened it. And the Fallen must know to pay attention to a given shadow, or else it's all just a haze of background noise-but you can safely assume that Anduriel will be listening very carefully to your shadow during this entire operation.
Anything you say, Nicodemus will know. Even writing something down could be compromised."
"Hell's bells," I said. If that was the case, communicating with my friends would just get them set up for a trap. Man, no wonder Nicodemus was always a few steps ahead of everyone else. "I'm. . going to have to play the cards really damned close to my chest, then."
===
Titania is Fae. They are dramatic, especially when in this case she's trying to convince someone to be careful.
Communications and planning security are prerequisites for people in charge of planning Earth's defenses.
Else the enemy would devote time to spying on them.
===
Thanks, I was actually ready to concede, because I couldn't find this quote. Still, an important point is that we are not just someone. We are an Infernal Exalt. Our voice echoes. Even in Mab's presence, even under an angel's wards, this time I prefer to fail on the side of caution in this. The element of surprise is paramount here.

At worst, we should be rolling 6 dice (Manipulation + Expression + WHWH + 1 die stunt) to convey what we mean. At best, it's subterfuge, and Molly uses excellency. I think we can reasonably expect 1 success at least.
See above.

The Carpenter home is protected against surveillance. So is Demonreach. And Mab's presence does it as well.
Odin apparently couldn't guarantee securing his own conversations against that tier of power. At least, not outside his headquarters.


It frankly is a necessity that the commander of Earths defenses can protect her own planning meetings and communications from surveillance by the enemy.
Else she wouldn't be able to plan.

Besides, I'd rather risk Nemesis finding out that Molly knows than risking Mab misunderstanding us, where misunderstanding can have grave consequences.
 
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See above.

The Carpenter home is protected against surveillance. So is Demonreach. And Mab's presence does it as well.
Odin apparently couldn't guarantee securing his own conversations against that tier of power. At least, not outside his headquarters.


It frankly is a necessity that the commander of Earths defenses can protect her own planning meetings and communications from surveillance by the enemy.
Else she wouldn't be able to plan.

Besides, I'd rather risk Nemesis finding out that Molly knows than risking Mab misunderstanding us, where misunderstanding can have grave consequences.
we don't know a lot of this ic, and there are perfect effects, and Mab is a commander of Earth's outer defences, not Earth's counter intelligence. That's either Rashid, Titania (also Lily as Summer Lady can detect Nemesis on touch, and foolishly trusts Maeve to have the same ability, which makes me think that either Butcher goofed, or there's more going on as to why Nemesis can work), or Uriel.

And I am not that scared of misunderstanding here. I definitely do not want to use Nemesis's name.
 
we don't know a lot of this ic, and there are perfect effects, and Mab is a commander of Earth's outer defences, not Earth's counter intelligence. That's either Rashid, Titania (also Lily as Summer Lady can detect Nemesis on touch, and foolishly trusts Maeve to have the same ability, which makes me think that either Butcher goofed, or there's more going on as to why Nemesis can work), or Uriel.
We dont need to know it for certain to suspect that its impossible to spy on the vicinity of a Sword.

Mab is commander of Earth's defenses, and her court is at risk for infiltration.
If she couldn't secure her communications and councils against snooping by Nemesis and its minions, they would have an intelligence advantage against her.

Not to mention that Nemesis wouldn't keep trying so strenuously to get agents into Winter if it could simply spy on them from outside.

===
Lily CAN'T detect Nemesis by touch.

Maeve lied to her, and with Nemesis' help strung up some demonstrations to convince her she could, so she didn't realize those were sacrificial goats. Maeve is Nfested, and deceiving Lily that Mab is the Nfested one was a longterm play by Nemesis in order to dupe her into helping Maeve attack Demonreach.

Thats one of the reasons why its important to out Maeve now, rather than six years in the future.
 
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The primary difference here from Yog's plan is that Molly tells her what the name of the infection is.
That and a different tone to the stunt, which is a personal taste thing; Molly deliberately went with brash American "aint no royals here", so I am trying to keep the same.


VOTE
[X]Plan Brass Tacks
-[X]Tell Mab Winter has been infiltrated. Mention Nemesis by name and give the names of all the infected
-[X]Bring up Sapphire Circle of Exorcism as a treatment option
-[X]STUNT: You meet the Faerie queen's eyes across the table, blue meeting green, as you reach inside your jacket for a notepad and pen. "Before anything else, ma'am, I bring a warning, freely given, as one who lives on this side of the Gates. Nemesis" and there is absolutely no reaction in her face or the temperature of the room to the name "has found its way into your house, and has" you search for an appropriate word "infested senior members of your Court." You reach into your jacket for a notepad and pen, printing three names on paper, before tearing off the page and pass it across the table. "These. Your resources can undoubtedly confirm when you check." She takes the paper and stares at it for a long moment, before the paper flakes into dust. Then she meets your eyes again.
 
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Euphemism is a valid work around for talking about things who'll notice their names being said. I had thought Nemesis was one of those, but if it isn't we can be a lot more clear than referring to them as mutual enemies.

Even something as direct as "the Outsider Saboteur" would be unmistakably clear without being noticeable on a name level.


Though it's worth noting that saying anything other than Nemesis will signal that we know it can listen, can't stop it ourselves, and have no IC reason to strongly believe she can do anything about it, because Mab will almost certainly pay attention to those data points.

On some level that's arguably helpful in regards to hiding the true extent of the crown, but it's still something to be aware of.
 
Yeah.
Thats one other reason to use the name.

Im not advocating braggadocio or giving up intel advantages, but how you choose to refer to threats matters.
Refusing to even name the thing in a meeting with the Queen of Winter, whose job is to fight Outsiders, gives a very different impression from a matter-of-fact naming.

Not to mention that if Mab doesnt think she can hide information being discussed in her presence, then she'll urge caution.And that provides information on Mab's limits IC.
 
Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on May 31, 2023 at 11:35 PM, finished with 95 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Plan Icy plunge
    -[X] Share information
    --[X] Do Not mention Nemesis by name
    --[X] Give the names of all the infected
    --[X] Tell her of the Sapphire Ritual of Exorcism as an absolute way to non-lethally remove Nemesis from its victims
    -[X] STUNT: As you sit down across the table from Mab, the chill of Winter caresses your skin, not yours, but no less invigorating. It is a bit like jumping into icy water. It is nothing compared to what you are about to do and say. For a moment you are still, your breath held, the weight of infinite Fate an almost tangible binding, and then you look directly into her eyes, and with your words sever those binding threads: " Your Majesty, before we talk of anything else, before any trades can be discussed, I have a duty to fulfill, as a denizen of this Creation. Those under your domain have been taken by the ones I would name my enemies, and whom I know you also call such. It is within my power to shatter their chains without damaging the victim unduly. Know, that I will be doing so to them all, your Lady first and foremost. It is my hope, if not a request, that we cooperate in this, if nothing else "
    [X]Plan Brass Tacks
    -[X]Tell Mab Winter has been infiltrated. Mention Nemesis by name and give the names of all the infected
    -[X]Bring up Sapphire Circle of Exorcism as a treatment option
    -[X]STUNT: You meet the Faerie queen's eyes across the table, blue meeting green, as you reach inside your jacket for a notepad and pen. "Before anything else, ma'am, I bring a warning, freely given, as one who lives on this side of the Gates. Nemesis" and there is absolutely no reaction in her face or the temperature of the room to the name "has found its way into your house, and has" you search for an appropriate word "infested senior members of your Court." You reach into your jacket for a notepad and pen, printing three names on paper, before tearing off the page and pass it across the table. "Your resources can undoubtedly confirm when you check." She takes the paper and stares at it for a long moment, before the paper flakes into dust. Then she meets your eyes again.
 
@Yog Isn't it canon that Maeve tried to convince Lily that Mab was Nfested? That would imply that its actually possible right? In that case should we really not be telling her exactly what Winter is dealing with? We don't know how she'll approach the threat without the full picture, telling her what the threat actually is seems safer not more risky.
[X] Uju32
 
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@Yog Isn't it canon that Maeve tried to convince Lily that Mab was Nfested? That would imply that its actually possible right? In that case should we really not be telling her exactly what Winter is dealing with? We don't know how she'll approach the threat without the full picture, telling her what the threat actually is seems safer not more risky.
[X] Uju32
It IS canon that Maeve convinced Lily that Mab was Nfested, and tried to convince Dresden of the same thing in order to send him after Mab.

Maeve lied like a trooper once Nemesis gave her the ability to utter falsehoods.
And because she was Fae, and everyone knows Fae cant lie?
She got away with it.

However, we're looking at Mab right now with Hellscry Chakra, and we can tell she isn't touched.
Its just a much better idea to avoid ambiguities of any sort here.
 
Like every good drug dealer, the first one is always free :)

More seriously, Mab has a very long memory, for good and for ill.
Not demanding payment, even rejecting it, doesnt mean we won't see plot wise impact. Especially since we still have that Enemy(Winter) Background to buy off.
 
@Yog Isn't it canon that Maeve tried to convince Lily that Mab was Nfested? That would imply that its actually possible right? In that case should we really not be telling her exactly what Winter is dealing with? We don't know how she'll approach the threat without the full picture, telling her what the threat actually is seems safer not more risky.
Mab is smart. If she believes it's safe to ask for clarification of who "the enemy is", she can say "say its name", and Molly would answer. As mentioned before, she won't just attack. If she thinks there's a chance of misunderstanding, she can ask for clarification.

EDIT: And yes, it's possible for Mab and most likely Mother Winter to be infested, and it wouldn't surprise me if Uriel could get infested.
 
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