Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

2)It doesn't actually say she damaged Winter. Just that she loved her children enough and was sufficiently strong willed that she got the Winter Queen Mantle to shift. Just a bit. You know, like Winter Lady Molly has done in canon by using Winter to deliver Christmas gifts to Chicago, or Mab delivering personal gifts to Dresden's daughter Maggie.

Winter is capable of some nuance if you know where to look for it. Santa Claus is Winter as well.
And given that Bob got this tale at second hand from Fae nobles, its entirely possible that important details are wrong.
It's pretty obvious that this change in the Mantle is what allowed her to keep Maeve as the Lady, despite her being very bad at the job, even long before the Nemesis infection.

It was mentioned that she had been neglecting her duties for centuries before that, right?

A purely rational Queen would have replaced her ages ago.
That is weakening Winter.
 
It's pretty obvious that this change in the Mantle is what allowed her to keep Maeve as the Lady, despite her being very bad at the job, even long before the Nemesis infection.
It was mentioned that she had been neglecting her duties for centuries before that, right?


A purely rational Queen would have replaced her ages ago.
That is weakening Winter.
No it is not.
Canon Maeve was a little over two hundred years old. Her father was an Austrian music composer.
We know she had been neglecting some of her duties, but we have no idea how long and when it started.

Furthermore, unilaterally killing another Queen is not something that Winter does lightly.
Not to mention that, surprise, the Winter Knight is usually the person who would have to do that sort of thing, and the current Winter Knight is a traitor. If she killed him without an immediate replacement, one of the Queens would have to select his replacement.

Nemesis Maeve might get the opportunity.
 
No it is not.
Canon Maeve was a little over two hundred years old. Her father was an Austrian music composer.
We know she had been neglecting some of her duties, but we have no idea how long and when it started.
Okay, but definitly long enough for canon-Molly to have a significant backlog of unfullfilled duties, right?
That's at least what I remember from some people here talking about the situation.

Furthermore, unilaterally killing another Queen is not something that Winter does lightly.
Not to mention that, surprise, the Winter Knight is usually the person who would have to do that sort of thing, and the current Winter Knight is a traitor. If she killed him without an immediate replacement, one of the Queens would have to select his replacement.
Killing a Lady is definitly something Mab can do, if she isn't doing her part for Winter in general.
There's no need to involve the Knight into that.
 
1)Literally her saving Winter from corruption and the earth from a major apocalypse.
If that isn't her greatest triumph, its up there in the top ten.


2)It doesn't actually say she damaged Winter. Just that she loved her children enough and was sufficiently strong willed that she got the Winter Queen Mantle to shift. Just a bit. You know, like Winter Lady Molly has done in canon by using Winter to deliver Christmas gifts to Chicago, or Mab delivering personal gifts to Dresden's daughter Maggie.

Winter is capable of some nuance if you know where to look for it. Santa Claus is Winter as well.
And given that Bob got this tale at second hand from Fae nobles, its entirely possible that important details are wrong.


3)That is not true.
Maeve was not Mab's first Winter Lady. We don't know what happened to her predecessor; whether in this AU or in canon.
The Winter Lady Mantle definitely did not drop on Maeve as a baby.

Nor was Maeve's infection her fault; she was targeted, same as the Leanansidhe was targeted.
Mab would feel no guilt there either.
An I reading a different update from you?
"Mother and maiden died at the Hands... er tentacles... multi-dimensional limbs of the Outsiders," Bob collects himself, the moment's levity at your expense fading from his voice at the gravity of what he recounts. "Only the Lady's Mantle escaped and it found Morgana for she was the most skillful in sorcery and boldest in war but uneasy did it rest upon her shoulders for though she had never known a man in the strictly physical sense Merlin her lover was sired by an incubus and possessed the power to join with her in soul and in mind." He stops for a moment. "One strange turn begat another for from that joining Morgana-not-yet-Mab fell heavy with child, children in fact twins. One is Meave, now Winter Lady and one is Sarissa whom I last knew as a cup bearer many centuries ago."

Sneaking a look at him its clear that Harry is flummoxed, not that you look much different in all honesty. It feels like the tail end of a Dan Brown novel, only actually real and terrifying to know, but Bob is not done.

"Many of the Sidhe lords and ladies know about the blood bond, though not the name of their sire as for decades after taking up the Mantle of Queen Mab would not speak of where the Lady's Mantle had gone until one dark Samhain they arrived at court, assumed to have been the daughters of some mortal of little note. Some whispered that Mab had kept the Mantle of the Lady frozen in place until she could offer it to her daughter, others that she had killed the Lady so that her daughter might inherit, but the wise and the learned dismissed such talk. All know the heart of winter is frozen and uncaring."

A skull cannot smile, but as the light's of Bob's eyes grow brighter and the runes upon his vessel sharper you get a distinct sense of smug satisfaction. "The wise and the learned were wrong. When Morgana stood at the foot of the Stone Table the Mantle of Queen in her hands, not yet upon her shoulders she would not surrender her love for her daughters. As one molding hot iron with her bare hands Morgana-Who-Became-Mab changed the Mantle of Winter ever so slightly so that her love of Meave and Sarissa might be preserved."
In this quest, Mab, in the process of ascending to Winter Queen, meddled with Winter Lady mantle. She changed the Mantle of Winter, so it would go to Maeve, instead of to the recipient most suited for it. Maeve became Winter Lady several decades after Mab's own ascension, and Mab didn't have any other Ladies during her reign.

As a result, Mab got Maeve as a Winter Lady, the job she turned out to be absolutely unsuited for. To the current Mab this would be her greatest shame, I feel.
Not. Actually. True.
If you looked up what you can do by perceiving a person's aura, you would KNOW its not true.
I just can't pull up the copies of the cited spots in V20; Im not home.

You can tell if a vampire has committed diablerie.
You can distinguish between Vampire, Baali, Fae, Fallen and Nephandus. You can tell when a Vampire is Dominating another Vampire. You can perceive demonic possession of a vampire by looking at its aura, even though they are already undead.

Its well established that you can perceive nuance in a person's aura just fine, even if they are a CoD.
Thats how Karmic Sight works in V20, and how apparently Mages use Prime as a sensory modality in M20.

===
Furthermore, Justine, a vanilla human who is Thomas Raith's girlfriend and Lara Raith's personal assistant?
Mother of Harry Dresden's nephew?
ALSO canonically infected by Nemesis

And also a vector for Infection of multiple power blocs.
From the White Court to our personal financial manager.
And almost successfully used to destroy Demonreach.

===
We don't need an excuse to justify looking at Mab's daughter and the fourth most powerful person in Winter after Mother Winter, Mab and the Leanansidhe. If we could justify looking at a random bartender in a supernatural dive bar in Chicago, we can justify looking into Maeve quite thoroughly.
You do know that Hellscry Chakra doesn't actually necessarily perceive auras of people? We have been over this. The text says, and I quote
she can behold the sub-
tleties of their anima and learn their current emotional
state, as well as some clues about their nature. If you
wish to embellish this with aura colors and the like, a
chart can be found on page 136 of V20.
Perceive some clues about their nature. Not "completely understand the nature of their condition". So, we might be able to discern a whampire from a blampire, probably. Detect Nemesis possessing a vanilla human. Detect nemesis possessing a winter fae mantle holder? Much less certain, and would almost certainly take like double legendary success on DC9 roll or something like that.

You are overselling the charm. By a lot.

As to Justine - we have no reason to active Hellscry chakra in her presence.
I AM being fair.
His own quote says, and I quote:
Literally convincing people by playing on their emotions is explicitly stated.
Earth-Destroyer is just wrong.
Ok, so the full descriptions are:
Empathy
You understand the emotions of others, and can sym-
pathize with, feign sympathy for, or play on such emo-
tions as you see fit. You are adept at discerning motive,
and might be able to discern when someone's lying to
you. However, you may be so in tune with other peo-
ple's feelings that your own emotions are affected.
• Novice: You lend the occasional shoulder to cry on.
•• Practiced: You can sometimes literally feel someone else's suffering.
••• Competent: You have a keen insight into other people's motivations.
•••• Expert: It's almost impossible to lie to you.
••••• Master: The human soul conceals no mysteries from you.
Possessed by: Social Workers, Parents, Actors,
Psychologists, Detectives, Seducers, Mediums, Best
Friends
Specialties: Emotions, Insight, Motives, Gaining Trust
Expression
This is your ability to get your point across clearly,
whether through conversation, poetry, or even in 140
characters or fewer. Characters with high Expression
can phrase their opinions or beliefs in a manner that
cannot be ignored (even if their opinions are misin-
formed or worthless). They might also be talented ac-
tors, skilled at conveying moods or communicating
emotion with every gesture. Additionally, this Talent
represents your ability for poetry, creative writing, or
other literary art forms. For many elders, Expression
is the subtle art of crafting a satirical epigram capable
of socially crippling one's longtime rival. For younger
Kindred, Expression may well be the key to convinc-
ing thirty stake-wielding Anarchs to converge on the
Sheriff's private hunting ground with the right text
message. You can choose a specialty in Expression,
even at less than 4 dots.
• Novice: Your talent has matured past rude poetry on notebook paper.
•• Practiced: You could lead a college debate team.
••• Competent: You could be a successful writer.
•••• Expert: Your work is Pulitzer material.
••••• Master: Steve Jobs asks you for input on his next mobile device.
Possessed by: Actors, Writers, Poets, Politicians,
Journalists, Web Personalities, Rabble-Rousers
Specialties: Acting, Poetry, Fiction, Impromptu,
Conversation, Social Media

Empathy is overwhelmingly about reading and understanding others, with a mix of "use emotional appeal". Expression is overwhelmingly about convincing others and transmitting the message you want transmitted.
 
And the curse was never active anyway, as they never successfully diverted the leylines anyway
The curse was an existing magical effect on the leylines, that was how Harry was able to target and invert it. It didn't go off, but it was still there.

Everyone else?
Even the Leanansidhe has made it clear that even thinking about wrong sort of information can be a vector for harm, intentional or otherwise. Why bother if there's a good chance it might break the looker's mind?
That's supposition.

What we know is that it's never defeated on screen, and that no one implies it's possible or even tries to directly oppose it however strong they are. Nemesis beating it comes from reasonable inference, but the books treat it as functionally absolute in any context it comes up in regardless of who is in the scene.

It's a book series, so there isn't as much explicit definition as if it came with a splat book, but taking the track that no one bothered because they didn't care to try is deliberately taking the weakest possible conclusion for something DF presents as consistently strong and relevant.

When Dresden tried to summon Lea during Dead Beat and Mab showed up in her place, her casual speech when summoned literally shakes the earth.
Note that most of those were conditions where she was meeting Harry on his own business or someone else blew up the rules first.

A three degree temp drop falls in the subtle category even though it's AoE, a mantle of burning eyes doesn't.

Edit: words
 
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An I reading a different update from you?

In this quest, Mab, in the process of ascending to Winter Queen, meddled with Winter Lady mantle. She changed the Mantle of Winter, so it would go to Maeve, instead of to the recipient most suited for it. Maeve became Winter Lady several decades after Mab's own ascension, and Mab didn't have any other Ladies during her reign.

As a result, Mab got Maeve as a Winter Lady, the job she turned out to be absolutely unsuited for. To the current Mab this would be her greatest shame, I feel.

The fey lords thought Meave became Winter Lady later because that is when she showed up and because 'obviously' Meave could not have been born prior to her mother taking the Lady's Mantle. What seems more likely is that Mab trained both her daughters in secret before introducing them to court so they would not spill any secrets and so the timeline made sense.
 
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The fey lords thought Meave became Winter Lady later because that is when sh showed up and because 'obviously' Meave could not have been born prior to her mother taking the Lady's Mantle. What seems more likely is that Mab trained both her daughters in secret before introducing them to court so they would not spill any secrets and so the timeline made sense.
Oh, so that's even worse. Mab basically turned Maeve into the current Archive, and also probably flubbed her upbringing pretty damn hard due to having to come to terms with her own new mantle at the time. Damn, I am actually sympathetic to Maeve now.

Yeah, I am absolutely sure this would be what NWS shows. It's a great sin both from the current Mab's viewpoint ("I compromised Winter out of sentimentality") and Morgana's perspective ("I ruined my daughter's life out of misplaced love").
 
Switching votes, even with my skepticism on HC it does have some uses, and it's better than wasting exp on one dot buys that won't do anything for us.

[X]Plan Inquisitor

Oh, so that's even worse. Mab basically turned Maeve into the current Archive, and also probably flubbed her upbringing pretty damn hard due to having to come to terms with her own new mantle at the time. Damn, I am actually sympathetic to Maeve now.

Yeah, I am absolutely sure this would be what NWS shows. It's a great sin both from the current Mab's viewpoint ("I compromised Winter out of sentimentality") and Morgana's perspective ("I ruined my daughter's life out of misplaced love").
This requires Mab to have the same perspective as you on events. NWS is about guilt and shame, if she doesn't think what she did is wrong then it won't show up, even if no one else agreed with her.

It also requires knowledge; it's possible Mab doesn't know that Maeve is compromised yet.
 
Well votes are not tied but very close.

People who did not vote for the top two options may want to reconsider.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on May 9, 2023 at 6:04 AM, finished with 209 posts and 27 votes.

  • [X] Plan Secret Agent Molly
    -[X] Molly (21 XP)
    --[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Subterfuge 4 (3 XP)
    --[X] Alertness 1 (3 XP)
    --[X] Awareness 1 (3 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    [X]Plan Inquisitor
    -[X] Molly (20 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
    --[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X]Ox-Body: 3xp
    -[X]Reserve/Leftover: 1xp
    [X] Plan Minions are Magic
    -[X] Molly (22 XP)
    -[X] Inner Devils Unchained (••••) - 12xp
    -[X] Empathy 5 - 4 XP
    -[X] Subterfuge 4 - 3 XP
    -[X] Mocking Murmurs Retort (•) - 3xp
    --[X] Lydia (8 XP)
    --[X] Righteous Lion Defense (•) (3 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    --[X] 2 XP Carry over
    [X] Plan Social Awareness
    -[X] Molly (22 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Subterfuge 5 (3+4 = 7 XP)
    --[X] Awareness 2 (5 XP)
    --[X] Seeing is Blindness (6 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    [X] Plan Social Expression
    -[X] Molly (20 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Subterfuge 5 (3+4 = 7 XP)
    --[X] Expression 2 dots, 5 XP
    --[X] Expression excellency, 4 XP
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    [X]Plan Attack and Defense
    -[X]Molly: 19xp
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
    --[X]Subterfuge 5: 7 XP
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X]Ox-Body: 3xp
    --[X] Occult 2: 2xp
    [X] Plan Today And Tomorrow
    -[X] Molly (21 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
    --[X] Bloodless Murk Evasion (9 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
 
Okay, but definitly long enough for canon-Molly to have a significant backlog of unfullfilled duties, right?
That's at least what I remember from some people here talking about the situation.
Long enough. But we don't actually know how long. It might have been a year, might have been five.
Or a century.

In canon, by Skin Game the Winter Court was just coming off a decade during which only Mother Winter and Mab were fully up and capable of doing their jobs.

The Leanansidhe and Maeve had been compromised by Nemesis. Winter Knight Lloyd Slade had been a traitor and either dupe or willing collaborator of a Nemesis scheme who was essentially imprisoned until Mab had a replacement and could afford to execute him without giving Nemesis a chance to have a hand in choosing his replacement.

And just as Lea came back, Mab had to spend an entire year keeping Dresden's body alive and then nursing him back to health before unleashing him back on the world to settle a whole lot of scores.
And this doesn't even count the fact that there was a need for internal housecleaning of Nfested.

It makes sense that there's a lot of routine housekeeping that wasn't done because they were shorthanded at the top end.

Killing a Lady is definitly something Mab can do, if she isn't doing her part for Winter in general.
There's no need to involve the Knight into that.
Apparently not. There are Rules.

IIRC there are even political rules about Queens having limits on how much they can countermand each other's orders; that's how Maeve was able to timewarp the heart of Winter in Proven Guilty. And why Mother Winter didn't simply go over Mab's head and murderize Maeve herself.

The Knight is one of the few people who can get past the defenses of a Queen without brute force.

The ultimate expression of this was when Mab told Dresden to kill Maeve as his first job as Winter Knight in Cold Days, Maeve trying to get Dresden to kill Mab instead, and the Mothers deliberately not giving Dresden any orders one way or the other, just providing him with information about the stakes, letting him draw some conclusions about who was right and stepping back.

It even makes sense that whoever set up the Courts in their current form made it so Fae Royalty are not allowed to directly move against each other. It minimizes coup attempts, internal infighting and paranoia that might distract from defending the Outer Gates.

After all, Mothers, Queens and Ladies are not usually related to each other, nor do they have any requirement to like each other. Loyalties are not automatic.


Plus, if its true that in this AU Maeve is the daughter of Merlin?
In addition to maternal love by a mother for her kid? There would be strong pragmatic reasons why Mab as a Queen and Winter as a corporate agency would be willing to go to significant lengths to attempt to salvage her.

The daughter of a Winter Queen and one of the most powerful wizards in recorded history, himself the son of an incubus, would be a hilariously potent magical legacy and weapon for Winter to wield in its duties.
They would not write her off if they have any alternatives.

Look at canon. Mab spent six months keeping Dresden's body alive after he got shot at the end of Changes, and another seven months nursing him back to health at the beginning of Cold Days. And that's what she did for a single Starborn wizard; there were forty thousand Starborn born this cycle, so while uncommon, they could have sought others.

There's only two daughters of Merlin and Mab in this world. Their value would be much, much higher.
And would give Nemesis additional incentive to go after them.
 
The fey lords thought Meave became Winter Lady later because that is when she showed up and because 'obviously' Meave could not have been born prior to her mother taking the Lady's Mantle. What seems more likely is that Mab trained both her daughters in secret before introducing them to court so they would not spill any secrets and so the timeline made sense.
The fey lords thought
And here we see the dangers of regarding hearsay as unimpeachable information.

Information at second or third hand is not necessarily true, and even people who can't lie can be genuinely mistaken.
This is something to keep in mind.
And why you always want independent corroboration of bold claims.

The interesting thing here is that IIRC, Maeve and Sarissa are twins. Fraternal twins.
And if Mab raised two daughters in secret, there's no way to be sure they didn't have sibling(s).
Whether living or dead.
 
Could we compromise a bit? My issue with the leading plan is that one dot isn't enough to do much with either perception skill. We'll go a whole arc without the benefits we'd otherwise have for the exp. Awareness has buffs on it already though; two dots in it instead would be cheaper and have more noticeable benefits.
 
Could we compromise a bit? My issue with the leading plan is that one dot isn't enough to do much with either perception skill. We'll go a whole arc without the benefits we'd otherwise have for the exp. Awareness has buffs on it already though; two dots in it instead would be cheaper and have more noticeable benefits.
I will second this. My main issue is more the waste of taking 1 dots rather than not taking charms.
 
Could we compromise a bit? My issue with the leading plan is that one dot isn't enough to do much with either perception skill. We'll go a whole arc without the benefits we'd otherwise have for the exp. Awareness has buffs on it already though; two dots in it instead would be cheaper and have more noticeable benefits.
That's just one of my problems with it.

I honestly think Hellscry Chakra is a time-critical resource.
And the fact that its tagged [SPOILERS] only makes me more interested in getting it before we meet Mab, given exactly what the metaplot of this universe is. We can't rely on the QM giving us the option to buy charms/spells in play on credit.

Its not that Im averse to Ability or Attribute increases.
Even Plan Inquisitor is spending 12/20 xp, or 60% of our available XP, on buying Perception 3 and Empathy 5.
I just think its a bad idea to leave HC on the shelf longer. Especially now.
 
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I honestly think Hellscry Chakra is a time-critical resource.
Not quite this but it has been bumped up to VERY important to get as Sight cannot find Nemesis infections and this is one of our only sure fire way to find out about that IC.

Even otherwise, it still helps with Mab and other CoDs.
 
Could we compromise a bit? My issue with the leading plan is that one dot isn't enough to do much with either perception skill. We'll go a whole arc without the benefits we'd otherwise have for the exp. Awareness has buffs on it already though; two dots in it instead would be cheaper and have more noticeable benefits.
I will second this. My main issue is more the waste of taking 1 dots rather than not taking charms.
We have to start somewhere, though, and we've been neglecting these aspects of Molly's build from the beginning. Yes, there might be more immediately useful choices, but this isn't just short-term planning.

There are just too many things happening around us that we cannot properly perceive because we've focused on combat prowess and survivability (admittedly, I was right there voting on those, too).

If we don't start now, when will we? After next arc? Whose to say we won't have yet another emergency that needs XP attention?
 
If we don't start now, when will we? After next arc? Whose to say we won't have yet another emergency that needs XP attention?
Then dump it in Awareness. Go 3 dots into that?

Because only puting one dots achieves literally nothing. It also locks us in it being useless for an entire story and has the risk that next turn we will NOT invest more into it due to time sensative stuff.

So go all in or not at all. Because there is a good chance, we will NOT invest more into it next spending turn.
 
The reason why I am pushing so hard against the one dots is also for META reasons. As I stated earlier, we are voting by Committee and have a number of threats and plot lines that are coming up. Heck, we have not even unlocked the Nemesis plot line yet, and have yet to resolve the Emma-O plot. Then there is the Odin plot line coming up.

I could go on, but my point is that we cannot afford to be wasteful on our XP spending. I am clarifying that I do not mind going all in on stats. But not a half baked approach as for the above reason, and for the fact that we are voting by committee AND for SYSTEM reasons, if we go 1 DOT in our stats, it will sit dead for an entire story and in the next spending turn, we may not even have the opportunity to raise it up to useable levels.
 
Okay, I'll drop Alertness in favor of further enhancing Awareness.

[X] Plan Secret Agent Molly
-[X] Molly (20 XP)
--[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
--[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
--[X] Subterfuge 4 (3 XP)
--[X] Awareness 2 (5 XP)
-[X] Lydia (9 XP)
--[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
--[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
-[X] 1 XP Banked
 
Okay, I'll drop Alertness in favor of further enhancing Awareness.

[X] Plan Secret Agent Molly
-[X] Molly (20 XP)
--[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
--[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
--[X] Subterfuge 4 (3 XP)
--[X] Awareness 2 (5 XP)
-[X] Lydia (9 XP)
--[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
--[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
-[X] 1 XP Banked
Err....I think you need to go back and edit your original post as it is messing up the votes.
 
That will always be the excuse not to get those dots.
We need the XP more elsewhere. If it's so important, why not go all in?
*points*
My plan is spending 12xp on raising Attributes and Abilities.
And I distinctly recall that we have regularly spent XP on raising Ability dots ever since our first meeting with Mab.
We've raised Etiquette to 5, and we're about to raise Empathy to 5; we've bought extra dots in Technology at a minimum that I recall.

People saying that we don't buy Ability dots are just not remembering correctly.

EDIT
I mean, do recall that this is literally the first turn we've been able to buy an Ancient Sorcery spell.
So its not like Abilities have been getting denied.
 
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