Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Social is not mindcontrol/reading.

So I am not understanding where Mab will find out comes from.

Mab has to know or fish for those secrets for Subterfuge to be rolled.

Am I missing something?
Social is not (usually) mind control / mind reading. But it is being able to read people. Mab will be trying to read us when we talk to her. Mab is smart. If we display anything that might seem suspicious, she'll pull on that thread. We absolutely can't allow our Crown to become known to Mab, or for her to discover that we know the juicy, juicy secret Bob told us. So, either we have to completely avoid all topics related to Maeve, and our knowledge in general (and absolutely avoid learning what Mab is trying to tempt us with before the meeting), or chances are, she'll notice that we know if the topic of the discussion comes to it.

Basically, when talking to Mab, I want to be at least at •••• Expert: Deep-cover agent level. Better yet at ••••• Master: You're the very last person anyone would suspect.
 
It is not mindreading. At worst, Mab suspects a few things but she will not Magic the info on our Crown from Molly's mind.

I repeat, thd worst that will happen is she knows we know something but not what.

Especially if we keep quite or change the subject.
 
It is not mindreading. At worst, Mab suspects a few things but she will not Magic the info on our Crown from Molly's mind.

I repeat, thd worst that will happen is she knows we know something but not what.

Especially if we keep quite or change the subject.
We were able to figure Mac's angelic nature based on nothing but how clean he was with two degrees of legendarity. Let's see how likely Mab is to roll a legendary success against us:
Currently:
Probability of winning, if Mab's 1s subtract successes, %Probability of winning if Mab's 1s don't subtract successes, %
Equal DC=73249
Mab rolls at DC 64967
Mab rolls at DC 56682
Currently, Mab is as likely to enjoy a legendary success in learning our secrets when trying to read us as we are to oppose her ability to read us. Worst case scenario (she has a -2 DC adjuster, and her 1s don't subtract successes) she's virtually guaranteed to succeed legendarily. What about double legendary? I.e. "this guy is an angel because he's clean" success?

Probability of winning, if Mab's 1s subtract successes, %Probability of winning if Mab's 1s don't subtract successes, %
Equal DC=7713
Mab rolls at DC 61526
Mab rolls at DC 52844
Worst case scenario essentially leaves us at a coin toss for Mab making the kind of logical leaps and observations we made there. This is plenty enough to deduce existence of the crown, and probably to realize we have used it on her previously, which would be more than enough offense to immediately attack us.

Now, what happens if we upgrade subterfuge to 5?
Probability of winning, if Mab's 1s subtract successes, %Probability of winning if Mab's 1s don't subtract successes, %
Equal DC=72032
Mab rolls at DC 63349
Mab rolls at DC 54967
Mab is more likely than not to draw a legendary success against us only in the worst case scenario. What about double legendary?
Probability of winning, if Mab's 1s subtract successes, %Probability of winning if Mab's 1s don't subtract successes, %
Equal DC=737
Mab rolls at DC 6815
Mab rolls at DC 51728
A decrease from 1/2 to 1/3.

Make no mistake - the talk with Mab is a far harder and more dangerous ordeal than the fight against Emma-O forces was.
P.S. Also, corrected math in the perception tables (forgot to tick off "we subtract 1s" from the occult and empathy rolls."
 
I do not know how to be clearer so let me put it like this.

Say Molly Blotches. Say Mab rolls 10 sux.

Mab still will not know what Mollg knows. What she gets are hints on what Molly knows. Strings of questions to ask but not answers.

Rollins 10 Sux DOES NOT give answers in a social stituation like it does for Awareness or occult or so on. All it reveals is that you are hiding something and points you in the direction.

To add more to this, Harry has meet Mab multiple times in the series. Yet not once has Mab suspected that he has had Bob with him. Keep in mind that he has had Bob since he was a teen.

Mab is good, but Mindreader she is not.
 
Yes, the quote says exactly that,

Nemesis is built to overcome things in current Creation, i.e sight and other detection.

@DragonParadox has also gone on record to say charms do what they do and "If an exalted says no, it means no, for better or for worse".

So, given that Nemesis is a CoD, it shows up in Hellscry. Given we can roll 5+ sux on the roll, we will be able to see that something is wrong at the minimum.

But lets Clarify this. @DragonParadox would Hellscry work as intended against Nemesis or will Nemesis juke it like it does on sight?

Also with regards to the 15xp part, keep in mind that this is a mortal ability and not an exalted one. One that acts like a charm and can be learned by anyone. That is why it is priced so much, because it is universal.
We have all sorts of edge cases where conflict is possible, and exalts aren't the only people with absolute effects. We're in a different age here, where stuff like time travel is possible even when the strongest exalts of the age of legends couldn't do that with a thousand years of prep. The sight is one of those things.

That aside, Hellscry Chakra specifically doesn't tell you what sort of CoD someone is even if it does tell you they are one. You have to roll to get details about them from their aura.

Since you have to roll for it checking stuff like domination isn't an absolute effect, and if it can be resisted things that are specialized in hiding should be better at it than things that aren't.

So even if we accept your premise it still doesn't perfectly detect nemesis, since most people we want to check already register as CoD.
 
Hypothetically, if I were to remove the extra dot of Subterfuge from my plan in favor of spending that XP on buying an additional dot of Alertness or Awareness, which of those abilities do ya'll see as more helpful for us? IIRC, Alertness is more about noticing mundane threats and general stuff in our surroundings, while Awareness is more geared toward noticing supernatural shenanigans?
 
None without an Excellency. 5 dice with 1s reducing sux are not reliable.
 
Last edited:
None without an Excellency. 4 dice with 1s reducing sux are not reliable.
In fairness, we do have that -2 diff on awareness from demonic guide. It's not a replacement for excellency or the ability to ignore 1s, but it does mean we do better with it than pure dots would otherwise indicate.

@Goldfish if you were to change your plan that way I think that awareness would be the way to go for that reason.
*checks again*
No it wouldn't. Read the text of the Charm again; the passive effect is viewing Dragons Nests, and the active effect is paying 1WP to see across the Gauntlet into the NeverNever, or to view the chimerical aspect of reality.

The Will did not have the metaphysical mass to affect Dragons Nests passively, so it wouldn't have pinged on EDS.
If they had successfully fucked with the leylines, that should have been noticeable, but just their existing in the general areawas demonstrably not enough to distort the flows of power.

Furthermore, EDS has a range of Essence* miles; at Essence 2, that's 2 miles.
If we were never within 2 miles of its location, EDS would never have never noticed, even if it was massive enough to distort Dragons Nests.

If the naagloshii stays away from Dragons Nests, EDS is unlikely to ping its presence
Given its metaphysical mass, it will probably see it though.
I am actually getting ahead of myself here; we've had charms get effects more in like with their description than their system text, and seeing dragon nests is really lame for a 3 dot charm that is supposed to show you the true nature of reality. We don't have a ruling though, so any supposition of more on my part is empty.

That said, dragon nests are ley line convergences and the jade ritual was a persistent change to the leylines in their area. I think there's good odds that viewing the emanations of dragon nests would be the same thing as seeing the ley lines, and therefore being able to detect when someone has been screwing with them.

So in that specific case I don't think it's a leap.

Detecting wards and similar seems like it should fall here, but that isn't actually explicitly laid out in the charm.

Calling Hellscry Chakra a mood ring is explicitly doing it a disservice, because that's in no way what it is.
It would be like calling Essence-Dissecting Stare a compass.

Furthermore, even the emotional aspect of the charm is the sort of thing that has significant applications in both social and combat situations, when you can see what a person actually feels even if they have the most pokerface of pokerfaced that ever pokerfaced.

Not to mention that there are multiple entities in this AU here who use emotion as a vector for feeding, for influencing others, or just as a direct mental attack.
Being able to see that happening allows for early warning.

Fair enough, though I still doubt it's general utility with the limits it currently operates under.

I provided citations from Mr Butcher that the Sight is explicitly not infallible.
And the QM confirms that Nemesis is designed to evade the Sight.
Worth noting that nemesis is a wild exception to the rules. Everyone else from Angel down we see in the series had to stop a wizard from looking by interrupting their attempt to draw on the sight. To all evidence they can't ward against it even if the truth seen by wizards isn't the same as getting a full list of objective fact.

The Dresden Files does have some places where it stacks up with the other settings in this crossover, it's annoying when they get disregarded because there aren't a half dozen splats detailing how it works mechanically.

Flaring your anima banner is about the same as Mab dropping the temperature when she shows up; a passive manifestation of Power use, but nothing more than that. IIRC, she did this at the Museum.
Showing a gun? Would be manifesting our demonsword, or going into shintai as a flex.
Perhaps that metaphor went too far, but I meant it more in the sense of showing it in a holster than pulling it out to wave around.

Anima is a passive, but it's also very flashy. Almost everyone on the supernatural side has a high visibility power use mode, and they tend to try avoiding using it at this sort of thing.

Mab's cold aura is more like DPE in that it's noticeable, but not obviously a sign of exertion itself.

If we've got to do it to avoid a loss then we have to do it, but there is a statement being made if we show up at what appears to be maximum burn mode against someone who isn't.
4 essence. We can spend 4 essence before flaring our anima. IPM with willpower, ATB also with willpower, and then excellencies. If we have budget for it, NWS just as Mab is leaving.
Anima control doesn't let us spend 4 motes without flaring, it causes us to flare on the 4th mote spent in a scene instead of the 3rd.

Anima Control
The Exalt's anima is restrained until they have spent 4 Essence in a scene
 
I am actually getting ahead of myself here; we've had charms get effects more in like with their description than their system text, and seeing dragon nests is really lame for a 3 dot charm that is supposed to show you the true nature of reality. We don't have a ruling though, so any supposition of more on my part is empty.
To be fair, everyone else has exactly the same as a 1 dot charm. Infernals just suck at this.
 
Vote's pretty close and since this is a level up it's rather significant as well. I'll keep it up until tomorrow
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 8, 2023 at 2:31 PM, finished with 162 posts and 22 votes.

  • [X]Plan Inquisitor
    -[X] Molly (20 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
    --[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X]Ox-Body: 3xp
    -[X]Reserve/Leftover: 1xp
    [X] Plan Secret Agent Molly
    -[X] Molly (21 XP)
    --[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Subterfuge 4 (3 XP)
    --[X] Alertness 1 (3 XP)
    --[X] Awareness 1 (3 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    [X]Plan Attack and Defense
    -[X]Molly: 19xp
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
    --[X]Subterfuge 5: 7 XP
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X]Ox-Body: 3xp
    --[X] Occult 2: 2xp
    [X] Plan Minions are Magic
    -[X] Molly (22 XP)
    -[X] Inner Devils Unchained (••••) - 12xp
    -[X] Empathy 5 - 4 XP
    -[X] Subterfuge 4 - 3 XP
    -[X] Mocking Murmurs Retort (•) - 3xp
    --[X] Lydia (8 XP)
    --[X] Righteous Lion Defense (•) (3 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    --[X] 2 XP Carry over
    [X] Plan Social Awareness
    -[X] Molly (22 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Subterfuge 5 (3+4 = 7 XP)
    --[X] Awareness 2 (5 XP)
    --[X] Seeing is Blindness (6 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    [X] Plan Social Expression
    -[X] Molly (20 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Subterfuge 5 (3+4 = 7 XP)
    --[X] Expression 2 dots, 5 XP
    --[X] Expression excellency, 4 XP
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    [X] Plan Today And Tomorrow
    -[X] Molly (21 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
    --[X] Bloodless Murk Evasion (9 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
 
@DragonParadox Forgive me for bothering you, but I just had a thought about a possible focus for one of our Mab questions.

Do we still have any of the clothes we were wearing when we were abducted? And if so, would they be a strong enough focus to ask why the girl wearing them was taken? Or some variation of that question that a more clever quester then I might devise?

I hope I'm not repeating something that was asked earlier in the thread, I haven't finished going through all 1420 pages worth of posts yet, but of the questions we wanted asked about Mab before the meeting that seemed the most important, and I thought we might be able to come at it from the other end, especially as I don't think Molly knows in character that Mab herself had anything to do with her abduction, unless I've missed something?
 
[X] Plan Secret Agent Molly
Do we still have any of the clothes we were wearing when we were abducted? And if so, would they be a strong enough focus to ask why the girl wearing them was taken? Or some variation of that question that a more clever quester then I might devise?
Oh, that's a good question! And a very clever idea. We should have at least the boots. And Charity's warhammer might also work (as a tool used to rescue us).
 
@DragonParadox Forgive me for bothering you, but I just had a thought about a possible focus for one of our Mab questions.

Do we still have any of the clothes we were wearing when we were abducted? And if so, would they be a strong enough focus to ask why the girl wearing them was taken? Or some variation of that question that a more clever quester then I might devise?

I hope I'm not repeating something that was asked earlier in the thread, I haven't finished going through all 1420 pages worth of posts yet, but of the questions we wanted asked about Mab before the meeting that seemed the most important, and I thought we might be able to come at it from the other end, especially as I don't think Molly knows in character that Mab herself had anything to do with her abduction, unless I've missed something?

You have them and if Molly had still be mortal they would make a good focus, but as is they are more linked to Molly the Exalted, being the clothes she wore during her Exaltation than anything to do with Winter. Creative thought though.
 
Votes as they stand.

I will point out that getting alertness\awareness 1 at this moment is a huge waste. It literally does nothing to help with Mab and we have no Excellency so we roll 5 dice with 1s reducing sux.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on May 8, 2023 at 3:56 PM, finished with 169 posts and 23 votes.

  • [X] Plan Secret Agent Molly
    -[X] Molly (21 XP)
    --[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Subterfuge 4 (3 XP)
    --[X] Alertness 1 (3 XP)
    --[X] Awareness 1 (3 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    [X]Plan Inquisitor
    -[X] Molly (20 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
    --[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X]Ox-Body: 3xp
    -[X]Reserve/Leftover: 1xp
    [X] Plan Minions are Magic
    -[X] Molly (22 XP)
    -[X] Inner Devils Unchained (••••) - 12xp
    -[X] Empathy 5 - 4 XP
    -[X] Subterfuge 4 - 3 XP
    -[X] Mocking Murmurs Retort (•) - 3xp
    --[X] Lydia (8 XP)
    --[X] Righteous Lion Defense (•) (3 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    --[X] 2 XP Carry over
    [X] Plan Social Awareness
    -[X] Molly (22 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Subterfuge 5 (3+4 = 7 XP)
    --[X] Awareness 2 (5 XP)
    --[X] Seeing is Blindness (6 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    [X]Plan Attack and Defense
    -[X]Molly: 19xp
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
    --[X]Subterfuge 5: 7 XP
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X]Ox-Body: 3xp
    --[X] Occult 2: 2xp
    [X] Plan Social Expression
    -[X] Molly (20 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Subterfuge 5 (3+4 = 7 XP)
    --[X] Expression 2 dots, 5 XP
    --[X] Expression excellency, 4 XP
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
    [X] Plan Today And Tomorrow
    -[X] Molly (21 XP)
    --[X] Empathy 5 (4 XP)
    --[X] Perception 3 (8 XP)
    --[X] Bloodless Murk Evasion (9 XP)
    -[X] Lydia (9 XP)
    --[X] Hunter's Bolt (6 XP)
    --[X] Oxen Body (3 XP)
 
You have them and if Molly had still be mortal they would make a good focus, but as is they are more linked to Molly the Exalted, being the clothes she wore during her Exaltation than anything to do with Winter. Creative thought though.
I am guessing they fall under "exaltation can't see itself" issue as foci then?

Hmm... Would splattercon convention center be a good enough focus? The place Molly was kidnapped from (unless I am misrememering where it happened)?
 
I am guessing they fall under "exaltation can't see itself" issue as foci then?

Hmm... Would splattercon convention center be a good enough focus? The place Molly was kidnapped from (unless I am misrememering where it happened)?

Too far removed, if the convention was sill going on that would apply though. Molly could aim it at her house, specifically the tree house where the kids hid to ask about the fetches in particular though.
 
...Why are people voting for more than one plan though? Like does only the most recent vote made by a user get counted or does it just take all of them?
 
You have them and if Molly had still be mortal they would make a good focus, but as is they are more linked to Molly the Exalted, being the clothes she wore during her Exaltation than anything to do with Winter. Creative thought though.
I thought that might be the case, oh well, I did have a followup question prepared.
Hmm... Would splattercon convention center be a good enough focus? The place Molly was kidnapped from (unless I am misrememering where it happened)?
But Yog just asked it.

That being said, is it possible for us to come at this question from the mortal side of things still? Perhaps using as Yog said Charity's mace, or some other personal memento belonging to another member of our family to ask why their mortal daughter was taken? Or has the Exaltation burnt out every conceptual link that once existed to mortal Molly?
 
[X] Plan Minions are Magic

I think we need to ask what the plan behind Molly's kidnapping was so we know what Mab was trying to accomplish.
 
Back
Top