Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

uju32 · May 5, 2023

DragonParadox said:
Generally speaking nation states would not press formations into service for the rest of their lives, they also are not... inhuman manifestations of nature red in tooth and claw. Even if one wants to compare them to apprentices into the merchant marine those could leave at some point and would not be reft from all human contact. The particular standards of the people who had been handing off their kids to the fey for centuries would not even be on the radar of Molly Carpenter, born 1989.

Edit: Since they are taken into the Nevernever odds are they would be fed fey food which after a certain time would ensure they cannot ever go home, which is also a good fit for the legends of people lost in faerie.

1)Sure. In modern times.

In post-Augustine Rome the minimum term of enlistment for a legionary was 25 years, at a time when the average life expectancy was in the mid-30s(skewed low by high childhood mortality). Between distance and enlistment terms, many professional soldiers never expected to see home again.

To my understanding, the expectancy of returning home for an imperial soldier serving an empire with professional soldiers is a very recent thing historically.

2)The problem is that the Sidhe, the high Fae, arent inhuman manifestations of nature.
Too many are all too human.
It would be much easier to deal with them if we could just characterize them as inhuman monsters.

3)I dont think faerie food is an issue in this setting. Too many sidhe come and go from reality at will.

Dresden spent 6 months of rehab in Arctis Tor in the beginning of Cold Days.
Just breathing the air alone should be an issue, never mind the food.
Elaine Mallory apparently sought refuge with the Summer Court until she was in her mid-20s; not an issue leaving either.

And the people who the Fomor kidnap and raise as servitors dont appear to have much issue with thar either.

I think they just are either physically prevented from leaving.
Or potentially just convinced not to leave.
Assuming there are people who live long enough to retire.
====
This you might find of interest:

Grave Peril c27 said:
My head abruptly cleared. The narcotic throb of the vampire venom lessened a bit, and I found my thoughts running again, slowly, like a train gathering momentum.
"Witch," Michael hissed up at Lea. "If you hurt either of them again—"
"For shame, Sir Knight," Lea said, her voice dreamy. " 'Tis no fault of mine that Harry made the agreement he did, nor fault of mine that the girl loves him and would give anything for him. Nor was it my doing that the Sword fell ownerless to the ground before me and that I picked it up." She fixed Michael with that dazzling smile. "Should you wish to bargain to have it returned to you, you have only to ask."
"Myself, for the Sword," Michael said. "Done."
She let her head fall back and laughed. "Oh, oh my, dear Knight, no. For once the Redeemer's blade was in your hands again, you would find the shattering of our pact a simple enough matter." Her eyes glittered again. "And you are, in any case, far too … restricted, for my tastes. You are set in your ways. Unbendable."
Michael stiffened. "I serve the Lord as I may."
Lea made a face. "Faugh. Just so. Holy." Her smile turned sly again. "But there are others whose lives you hold and can bargain with. You have children, do you not?" She shivered again and said, "Mortal children are so sweet. And can be bent and shaped in so many, many ways. Your eldest daughter, I think, would—"
Michael didn't snarl, didn't roar, didn't make any sounds at all. He simply seized the front of Lea's dress and lifted her clear off the ground by it. His voice came out in a vicious growl. "Stay away from my family, faerie. Or I will set such things in motion against you as will destroy you for all time."
Lea laughed, delighted. " 'Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, is how the phrase runs, is it not?" There was a liquid shimmering in the air, and she abruptly stood upon the ground again, facing Michael, out of his grasp. "Your power weakens with rage, dear man. You will not bargain—but I suppose I had plans for the Sword in any case. Until then, good Knight, adieu." She gave me one last smile and a mocking laugh. Then she vanished into the shadows and the darkness.
I gathered myself back to my feet, and mumbled, "That could have gone better."
Michael's eyes glittered with anger beneath his helmet. "Are you all right, Harry?"

Remember that it was Lea who ended up training, and mentoring Molly when Dresden was dead?

Winter canonically noticed Molly a long, long time ago.

Yog said:
You'll have to provide your definition of slavery, and property and conscript then, because from where I am standing, the distinction is meaningless.

===
The legal definition of slavery is found at Article 1(1) of the 1926 Slavery Convention, which reads: "Slavery is the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised."
===
Slaves are property. Conscripts have rights.

Even in the one situation where we see Molly sent to collect children/minors, its established that its by no means a one way relationship; Winter has responsibilities to its client-states/tribes that must be met even before they can request/demand tribute. And the Court is all about keeping its deals.

DragonParadox · May 5, 2023

uju32 said:
1)Sure. In modern times.

In post-Augustine Rome the minimum term of enlistment for a legionary was 25 years, at a time when the average life expectancy was in the mid-30s(skewed low by high childhood mortality). Between distance and enlistment terms, many professional soldiers never expected to see home again.

To my understanding, the expectancy of returning home for an imperial soldier serving an empire with professional soldiers is a very recent thing historically.

2)The problem is that the Sidhe, the high Fae, arent inhuman manifestations of nature.
Too many are all too human.
It would be much easier to deal with them if we could just characterize them as inhuman monsters.

3)I dont think faerie food is an issue in this setting. Too many sidhe come and go from reality at will.

Dresden spent 6 months of rehab in Arctis Tor in the beginning of Cold Days.
Just breathing the air alone should be an issue, never mind the food.
Elaine Mallory apparently sought refuge with the Summer Court until she was in her mid-20s; not an issue leaving either.

And the people who the Fomor kidnap and raise as servitors dont appear to have much issue with thar either.

I think they just are either physically prevented from leaving.
Or potentially just convinced not to leave.
Assuming there are people who live long enough to retire.
====
This you might find of interest:

Remember that it was Lea who ended up training, and mentoring Molly when Dresden was dead?
Winter canonically noticed Molly a long, long time ago.

===
The legal definition of slavery is found at Article 1(1) of the 1926 Slavery Convention, which reads: "Slavery is the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised."
===
Slaves are property. Conscripts have rights.

Even in the one situation where we see Molly sent to collect children/minors, its established that its by no means a one way relationship; Winter has responsibilities to its client-states/tribes that must be met even before they can request/demand tribute. And the Court is all about keeping its deals.

One moment while I look up the nevernever food thing. I'm pretty sure it is the case, but it's so common I may be conflating it.

Edit Found it:
What would happen to someone who spends a year or more in the nevernever, eating nevernever food, breathing nevernever air, then returns to the real world? Do they get sick/die as all the ectoplasmic stuff in their bodies turns to goo, or does it metaphysically become one with them?
They get sick and die. That's why you shouldn't eat Faerie Food.

After, what is it, seven years or so, you've completely replaced the cells in your body with new cells. If they all come from faerie food, you just glorp to the floor. I think there might be some brain left.

uju32 · May 5, 2023

DragonParadox said:
One moment while I look up the nevernever food thing. I'm pretty sure it is the case, but it's so common I may be conflating it.

Edit Found it:
What would happen to someone who spends a year or more in the nevernever, eating nevernever food, breathing nevernever air, then returns to the real world? Do they get sick/die as all the ectoplasmic stuff in their bodies turns to goo, or does it metaphysically become one with them?
They get sick and die. That's why you shouldn't eat Faerie Food. After, what is it, seven years or so, you've completely replaced the cells in your body with new cells. If they all come from faerie food, you just glorp to the floor. I think there might be some brain left.

Thank you for the citation.

You're going to have to houserule that for however you want it to work in this AU.
Because Mr Butcher seems to have forgotten about that ruling when Fomori servitors started showing up after the genocide of the Red Court.

All the humans who were bred into monsters, and those who spent years in Fomor territory in the NeverNever being turned into servitors with training and mods, had no trouble operating back in Reality, and according to Molly when they are killed, their bodies remain, with only the bioware implants dissolving into goo.

Ghost Story c23 said:
"Yeah. Exactly." She shook her head and looked at me intently. "Is that what it's always like for you? Throwing fire that way?"
I blinked and tried to change mental gears. I didn't do it as smoothly as she had. Someone uncharitable or unbiased might note that it could be because Molly had stripped said gears. "Um. Oh, back at the fight with the Fomor guys?"
"They weren't the Fomor," Molly corrected me. "They were humans the Fomor have altered. They're called—"
"Turtlenecks," I said.
She arched an eyebrow. "You and Murphy both. No, they're known as servitors. The Fomor muck around with them. Install things. Gills, extra muscles, organs for sonar, night-vision eyes . . ."
I whistled. "All kinds of fun."
She nodded. "The odd bits kind of turn to jelly when they die. Police are calling them transients."
I nodded, and tried to keep the conversation casual. "A lot of them dying around here?"
"It's Chicago," she said. "There's always someone dying around here. And you should see what these . . . these animals do, Harry. They take people right out of their beds. Grab children waiting for the school bus. They've tortured people to death for fun."

Yog · May 5, 2023

uju32 said:
The legal definition of slavery is found at Article 1(1) of the 1926 Slavery Convention, which reads: "Slavery is the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised."
===
Slaves are property. Conscripts have rights.

Read your own definition. "to whom any or all of the powers attached to the right of ownership are exercised". Nowhere does it state that slaves can't have rights. Now, let's look the "right of ownership" up. Sadly, it isn't defined in the actual convention, so I am forced to make do:

Ownership is the legal right to use, possess, and give away a thing. Ownership can be tangible such as personal property and land, or it can be of intangible things such as intellectual property rights.
Some common usages of the term "ownership" in a legal sense include:

In the context of property, cases such as this one from Louisiana, explain that "the three elements of complete ownership of property are the right to possess, enjoy the use of, and to dispose of property."

This case from Arizona, explains that "ownership for property tax purposes signifies the collection of rights to use and enjoy property, including the right to transmit it to others."

In the context of copyright infringement action, cases such as this one from Texas, explain that ownership of a valid copyright can be established "by proving the originality and copyrightability of the material and compliance with statutory formalities."

Using the first version of the definition, pertaining to property, there are three parts: power to possess something (i.e. to call something one's own), power to make use of something, and power to dispose of something. Under these definitions, conscripts are slaves. They can be ordered to do something, and have no way to disobey at least some range of orders, they can be said to be possessed by the army they are a part of, and they can be disposed of (by either letting them leave, or sending them away).

Not all slaves can be sold. Not all laws allowed slaves to be killed. There were laws about treatments of slaves, so you couldn't make one do anything you wished. For all intents and purposes conscripts are slaves in many ways. In the context of this setting, and not real life, even more so, as I am fairly sure Mab / WInter has claim over them in a magic way (power to possess), can order them to do something, and can dispose of them, up to and including killing them, or at least sending them on suicide missions.

Goldfish · May 5, 2023

[X] Fascination: This isn't the whole story, even Bob admits to not knowing everything on the subject. You want to know where all the missing pieces are. Then you will be able to make the judgement properly

DragonParadox · May 5, 2023

uju32 said:
Thank you for the citation.

You're going to have to houserule that for however you want it to work in this AU.
Because Mr Butcher seems to have forgotten about that ruling when Fomori servitors started showing up after the genocide of the Red Court.

All the humans who were bred into monsters, and those who spent years in Fomor territory in the NeverNever being turned into servitors with training and mods, had no trouble operating back in Reality, and according to Molly when they are killed, their bodies remain, with only the bioware implants dissolving into goo.

I think those two rulings can be reconciled as the Fomori not wanting their servants to turn to jello and thus importing material food into their realm. After all they live underwater, how hard can be be to herd s shoal of fish from time to time so you have enough biomass to feed the servitors?

uju32 · May 5, 2023

Yog said:
Read your own definition. "to whom any or all of the powers attached to the right of ownership are exercised". Nowhere does it state that slaves can't have rights. Now, let's look the "right of ownership" up. Sadly, it isn't defined in the actual convention, so I am forced to make do:

Using the first version of the definition, pertaining to property, there are three parts: power to possess something (i.e. to call something one's own), power to make use of something, and power to dispose of something. Under these definitions, conscripts are slaves. They can be ordered to do something, and have no way to disobey at least some range of orders, they can be said to be possessed by the army they are a part of, and they can be disposed of (by either letting them leave, or sending them away).

Not all slaves can be sold. Not all laws allowed slaves to be killed. There were laws about treatments of slaves, so you couldn't make one do anything you wished. For all intents and purposes conscripts are slaves in many ways. In the context of this setting, and not real life, even more so, as I am fairly sure Mab / WInter has claim over them in a magic way (power to possess), can order them to do something, and can dispose of them, up to and including killing them, or at least sending them on suicide missions.

1)Dude, by the definition you just made?
The United States was practicing male slavery until the 1970s, and reserves the right to reinstitute it.
So is South Korea, and literally every nation that has a draft.

2)Literally the only thing we have seen Mab(or rather, WinterLady!Molly) do is recruit. Not compel.
I am reasonably sure that Mab and Winter have no power to compel in most circumstances, any more than she can compel most other Winter Fae.

Not to mention that compelled soldiers would be uniquely vulnerable to Outsider temptation.
Those soldiers have to consider their presence to be necessary for there not to be an epidemic of defections.
Or say, Rashid not having to worry about getting shanked.

And in this AU, the QM has explicitly established that there is an intricate web of obligations and responsibilities between the Queen and her subjects.
Its neofeudal. Not absolutist.

DragonParadox said:
I think those two rulings can be reconciled as the Fomori not wanting their servants to turn to jello and thus importing material food into their realm. After all they live underwater, how hard can be be to herd s shoal of fish from time to time so you have enough biomass to feed the servitors?

Like I said, your ruling; whatever works for you. I dont currently think it breaks anything.

But IMO it appears entirely too much logistical trouble for the Fomor as characterized to go to while remaining unnoticed.
Especially since they apparently have a LOT of them for everything from combat to utility to doing the scut work to sale to other; allegedly the combat beasts that the Denarians were using on Demonreach in Small Favor were also from the Fomor.

Besides, every appearance of Fomor sorcerers has them treating their servitors as replaceable chaff, not valuable staff with special dietary requirements.

It would be like expecting the American Confederacy(33% slaves of 9 million ppl) to take special steps for slave nutrition.
The logistical effort would be immense.
And the ideological status wouldnt allow them to even start.

Yog · May 5, 2023

uju32 said:
1)Dude, by the definition you just made?
The United States was practicing male slavery until the 1970s, and reserves the right to reinstitute it.
So is South Korea, and literally every nation that has a draft.

Yes? Had I not made my opinion on what a conscription is clear enough?

uju32 said:
Its neofeudal. Not absolutist.

Nothing neo about it. Even calling it feudal would be a compliment to how socially advanced it is.

BronzeTongue · May 5, 2023

TheGrape said:
If this ends up being true, then we ought to treat them the same way the Exalted treated SWLIHM: with extreme prejudice and violence.

This is a bad plan.

We probably should do something about the fey, but it's worth remembering that they're in a complicated spot on several levels.

Destroying evil isn't the same a building up good and never has been. Even a setting aside that the fey are a lot more complicated than simply being 100% evil concentrate supervillains hitting the smite button can't be our first step.

They still guard the outer gates, which means they cannot be significantly weakened until after a replacement is in position. To do otherwise is risking reality getting tentacled to death by Outsiders.

Then there is the more immediate problem of politics. The Accords are what keep the limited civility the supernatural world has available in play. Success would make the chaos following the fall of the red court look like a minor schoolyard scuffle even if it didn't end in an apocalypse.

Finally there's the practical aspects of things; we're weaker than Winter. Even with a nation sized hell we're still weaker in a lot of ways, because Winter has wormed its way into everything. People who hate Mab's guts fought a titan for her because of their political maneuvering.

The point that's being missed in this conversation is that inhumanly skilled people have spent thousands of years making this exact thing as hard as possible, and most of the important ones are still around putting in the work.

I'm not saying they're impossible to beat, but it isn't a natural consequence of our power growth we should take for granted. It's something that we have to build towards to reach, and continuously fight an uphill battle to push forward across multiple fronts.

DragonParadox · May 5, 2023

uju32 said:
But IMO it appears entirely too much logistical trouble for the Fomor as characterized to go to while remaining unnoticed.
Especially since they apparently have a LOT of them for everything from combat to utility to doing the scut work to sale to other; allegedly the combat beasts that the Denarians were using on Demonreach in Small Favor were also from the Fomor.

Besides, every appearance of Fomor sorcerers has them treating their servitors as replaceable chaff, not valuable staff with special dietary requirements.

It would be like expecting the American Confederacy(33% slaves of 9 million ppl) to take special steps for slave nutrition.
The logistical effort would be immense.
And the ideological status wouldnt allow them to even start.

If all the slaves might melt upon being given improper nutrition then yes I expect the slave owners to care. To them slaves are a resource and dead slaves are a waste. And on top of that it makes for a cool way to find Fomor bases, look for places where shoals of fish seem to vanish.

fictionfan · May 5, 2023

DragonParadox said:
If all the slaves might melt upon being given improper nutrition then yes I expect the slave owners to care. To them slaves are a resource and dead slaves are a waste. And on top of that it makes for a cool way to find Fomor bases, look for places where shoals of fish seem to vanish.

I expect that half the time you are going to find an illegal fishing operation.

uju32 · May 5, 2023

Yog said:
Yes? Had I not made my opinion on what a conscription is clear enough?

Nothing neo about it. Even calling it feudal would be a compliment to how socially advanced it is.

Fair enough.
I dont think many ppl will agree with that definition though.

DragonParadox said:
If all the slaves might melt upon being given improper nutrition then yes I expect the slave owners to care. To them slaves are a resource and dead slaves are a waste. And on top of that it makes for a cool way to find Fomor bases, look for places where shoals of fish seem to vanish.

By their works shall ye know them.

Whatsisface in the Bombshells short story strangled the ones he slept with to death, and ordered the death of one of the slaves that was a member of his protective detail for waking him up.
They dont have a culture that suggests slave preservation, human preservation is a societal priority of any sort.

They're literally worse than the Reds at preserving their minions.

Its certainly going to have all sorts of complications for us when we get a Hell of our own.
And that ruling will probably going to make it impossible to rescue any longterm Fomor captives(or any other captives by any other faction) that have been held in the NeverNever.

Finding Fomor bases is more likely along the lines of listening for stories of vanishing people and strange sightings of sea monsters than statistically significant missing quantities of fish.
The logistical requirements for fishing and processing makes it infeasible IMO

Besides.
A society like theirs would rather have bases reliant on shipment of food and supplies from home, than being quasi-independent.
Thats how sorcerer-lords get ideas.

firefrog600 · May 5, 2023

TheGrape said:
To be fair, that was only possible because the Exalted had mercy and weren't willing to go all out to kill every Primordial, which gave SWLIHN an opportunity. We won't make the same mistake.

Not that I hate the sentiment the sheer hubris of this statement though made me laugh.

Edit: Replied to the wrong comment somehow.

Exmorri · May 5, 2023

[X] Fascination: This isn't the whole story, even Bob admits to not knowing everything on the subject. You want to know where all the missing pieces are. Then you will be able to make the judgement properly

It's an Infernal Urge, it seems to me the sensible impulse in general when we have such a small fraction of the story, and it seems better than the other two in specific: not enough points of comparison for Respect (sui generis faction is doing sui generis task, is it being done well or badly?) and picking Doubt would require a certain narrow slice of worldview that I don't think Molly fits into, even if a chunk of SV does.

uju32 said:
The legal definition of slavery is found at Article 1(1) of the 1926 Slavery Convention, which reads: "Slavery is the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised."

That's incredibly unhelpful, and everyone involved in writing that convention should be fired.

First, it's passing the buck to something it neither defines nor points to an existing definition of. For a formal international convention, this strikes me as shockingly lazy and sloppy. I checked the full convention in case the definition's in the next article or a footnote at the end, nope, didn't see it.
Second, since they failed to define "ownership" (and corollaries like "property") when pointing to any of the powers of ownership, I'm left thinking about it myself and that field of law is very much a second can of worms and the writers should have known this, what with common-law, squatter's rights, salvage, adverse possession, easements, zoning, ad coelum, etc.
Third, that "any" is so broad, the definition accidentally includes children. I'm pretty sure if you listed the ownership-powers explicitly, you'd find that parents exercise some ownership-powers over their children. If you redefine "slavery" this way, the condemnation of "slavery" loses its moral force. (Fun fact - back when slavery was a lot more acceptable, legislators also recognized children as being a sort of slave in a good way, and that's why we have the word emancipate to describe setting both loose from their owners/parents.)

They could have written "We all know what slavery is, no need to explain it here" instead.

taovkool · May 5, 2023

[X] Fascination: This isn't the whole story, even Bob admits to not knowing everything on the subject. You want to know where all the missing pieces are. Then you will be able to make the judgement properly

Blockamus · May 5, 2023

[X] Doubt: Why is it the task of winter in its cruelty to guard the gates? Where are the Angels? Surely if there is any task that is meant for the hosts of heaven it is guarding the universe against those who would unmake it

Aeondrac · May 5, 2023

uju32 said:
1)Dude, by the definition you just made?
The United States was practicing male slavery until the 1970s, and reserves the right to reinstitute it.
So is South Korea, and literally every nation that has a draft.

The United States literally practices slavery to this day, the US prison system is built around mass coerced labour.

Yzarc · May 5, 2023

Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on May 5, 2023 at 11:52 PM, finished with 80 posts and 39 votes.

27 people have voted
[X] Fascination: This isn't the whole story, even Bob admits to not knowing everything on the subject. You want to know where all the missing pieces are. Then you will be able to make the judgement properly
- BronzeTongue
- FactorySmith
- Nyarky
- Yzarc
- Narasan
- ImBuda
- Cavalar
- sunrise
- tenchifew
- Yog
- incama
- fallaxMorte
- pkong
- OctarineShrike
- Murloc
- gale
- 恐Drake
- TonedMite
- Tiz Goldeneye
- TheGrape
- Azais
- uju32
- Modus_Tollens
- Cassiemouse
- Goldfish
- Exmorri
- taovkool
8 people have voted
[X] Doubt: Why is it the task of winter in its cruelty to guard the gates? Where are the Angels? Surely if there is any task that is meant for the hosts of heaven it is guarding the universe against those who would unmake it
- Artemis1992
- Alratan
- T_of_A
- Aeondrac
- Earth-Destroyer
- Ogoobu
- SinisterPorpoise
- Blockamus
3 people have voted
[X] Respect: As little as she likes the Winter Fey and as much as you hate the terror-monsters that are fetches she can respect them a little more for doing a task no one else does
1 people have voted
[X] Write in Choystvo (Čojstvo): Just because you are the one who takes the blow doesn't give you the right to beat others into weapons and walls for your task. Cruelty seems counterproductive to defenders eternal of reality when they could instead seek out those among mortals that are willing to take up such a vigil instead.
- Dmol8

DragonParadox · May 6, 2023

uju32 said:
Fair enough.
I dont think many ppl will agree with that definition though.
By their works shall ye know them.

Whatsisface in the Bombshells short story strangled the ones he slept with to death, and ordered the death of one of the slaves that was a member of his protective detail for waking him up.
They dont have a culture that suggests slave preservation, human preservation is a societal priority of any sort.

They're literally worse than the Reds at preserving their minions.

Its certainly going to have all sorts of complications for us when we get a Hell of our own.
And that ruling will probably going to make it impossible to rescue any longterm Fomor captives(or any other captives by any other faction) that have been held in the NeverNever.

Finding Fomor bases is more likely along the lines of listening for stories of vanishing people and strange sightings of sea monsters than statistically significant missing quantities of fish.
The logistical requirements for fishing and processing makes it infeasible IMO

Besides.
A society like theirs would rather have bases reliant on shipment of food and supplies from home, than being quasi-independent.
Thats how sorcerer-lords get ideas.

All societies have to concern themselves with the preservation of limited resources to some degree. Maybe the Formor in Bombshells was particularly bad at preserving his own troops and had skills in other regards that compensated.

As for your own Hell... it will not decay. Worth keeping in mind that the Yozis are, not impermanent creatures of the Wyld, but remains of the cosmic constants to raised the very pillars of Creation. A demon of Malfeas is not fey and they would probably try to eat one's face if confused for one.

bengalqueen · May 6, 2023

DragonParadox said:
As for your own Hell... it will not decay. Worth keeping in mind what the Yozis are, not impermanent creatures of the Wyld, but remains of the cosmic constants to raised the very pillars of Creation. A demon of Malfeas is not fey and they would probably try to eat one's face if confused for one.

... Well then, THAT is something that's going to make some waves when that particular little quirk gets discovered. And give the people with the metaphysical knowledge to know what that means conniption fits.

Then again, by that point it will be pretty clear that we're breaking the rules in a billion or so other ways long before. Is there a single metaphysical rule in the Dresdenverse that we don't get some kind of exception to? Breaking promises, kicking Denarians and Nemesis to the curb, killing stuff for keeps outside of Halloween... We basically take the limits everyone else takes for granted and wave pleasantly to them as we zoom past in our Exaltation-mobile.

Which, you know, pretty on-brand for the Exalted, but still.

Carrnage · May 6, 2023

DragonParadox said:
[] Doubt: Why is it the task of winter in its cruelty to guard the gates? Where are the Angels? Surely if there is any task that is meant for the hosts of heaven it is guarding the universe against those who would unmake it

Do we know for a fact that Mother Winter and Mother Summer aren't angels?

DragonParadox · May 6, 2023

Carrnage said:
Do we know for a fact that Mother Winter and Mother Summer aren't angels?

Given the kind of stuff Winter does (Including to her) Molly is very unlikely to believe that there could be angels in their leadership.

Endymion · May 6, 2023

[X] Fascination: This isn't the whole story, even Bob admits to not knowing everything on the subject. You want to know where all the missing pieces are. Then you will be able to make the judgement properly

DragonParadox said:
Between the Lines

Finally the fourth chapter has to do with settling disputes by blood or by weregild, from battlefield truces to duels. These always involve a neutral mediator when the Accords are Invoked who ensures the sides are not cheating, whether it be using magic in a duel which has been decided as a test of will between the parties or giving up... lives that have already been hollowed out or souls which have already been dedicated to another power. God, no wonder the Church isn't party to the Accords.

Being as fair as you can the document does not force anyone to take part in the soul trade, it just provides rules for doing so, the same way it provides rules for trading labor, works of artistry and craft, precious metals and even cash, but still there are situations in which Winter might call upon other signatories to provide limited assistance in resolving a breach of the Accords, including a breach of weregild payment

Wait a second, you feel a sudden twisting in your stomach flip back t chapter two and the stolen property clause. 'That which was taken by stealth or by force, knowingly or unknowingly from the possession of one party onto another including objects great and small, mundane and magical, thralls, prisoners and slaves.' Under the articles of the Accords showing up with your soul counts as a provocation which would justify Queen Mab to demand you 'take it outside'.

Just binge read the whole quest, and well this section kind of popped out to me. The Exaltation itself in many ways can not be owned, slowed on its travels, redirected, transmuted to a new aspect, but literally nothing can stop it once in motion. Is it Property, stolen or otherwise, when the object in question rejects rejects all bindings to its purpose? It might have been slowed to stay in one area awaiting its Fated meeting, Mab's assumption that she owned it does not mean that the object agreed to her interpretation. Does ownership transfer when the object is literally older then the current version of the Universe?

The other side that pops out to me, Molly is not a signatory of the Accords. She's under the false assumption that meeting would be under the Accords. The Oldest Laws applies to their meeting, Might Makes Right, Take What You Want, and Molly under that has every right to her Exaltation. Taken as spoils from a battlefield, Mab had her chance to protest before the rescue team left Arctis Tor.

Which makes me wonder Mab's entire play is really just to bring Molly under the Accords, which funnily enough might backfire on Mab if CCC can fire off of it.

DragonParadox · May 6, 2023

CCC only triggers if someone aims to entrap you in some way that would restrain your movements now or in the future. The Accords do not do that.

BronzeTongue · May 6, 2023

Endymion said:
Just binge read the whole quest, and well this section kind of popped out to me. The Exaltation itself in many ways can not be owned, slowed on its travels, redirected, transmuted to a new aspect, but literally nothing can stop it once in motion. Is it Property, stolen or otherwise, when the object in question rejects rejects all bindings to its purpose? It might have been slowed to stay in one area awaiting its Fated meeting, Mab's assumption that she owned it does not mean that the object agreed to her interpretation. Does ownership transfer when the object is literally older then the current version of the Universe?

Seems like sophistry to me. Exaltations can be passed around, and will take orders under various circumstances. They can even be reengineered to an extent to serve different purposes, as happened when the Neverborn and Yozi got their hands on some loose Solar exaltations.

There are some things you can't do to them, but whatever grand philosophical position anyone wants to take on it for all practical purposes they are possible to own and use as a tool.

Endymion said:
The other side that pops out to me, Molly is not a signatory of the Accords. She's under the false assumption that meeting would be under the Accords

We've gotten rulings directly stating that some coverage still applies to us here.

Apparently neutral ground is something the signatories will enforce on anyone who shows up, probably to make it harder to have non-signatory dupes screw with their business and draw people into their area of influence.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

Forever Gone

The Spark of Madness

Human

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