Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

TonedMite said:

Yeah, she can 'just' play all manner of fuck-fuck word games, which if she pushes it far enough, can get her close enough to the same result. Linguistic drift, among other things, could be used against us. As could picking and choosing what definitions of a word, even if said definition is not in common use any more or perhaps never was in *common* use, playing games with intent/manipulating others into doing stuff to hurt us without 'technically' any intent to do us harm (say, if she mentally formats it as 'defence of reality' like almost everything else she does), and many other things that I'm probably not thinking of at 8 in the morning.

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This keeps coming up, and it's worth noting that this never happens in canon with any fey deal we get any details on.

The fey will rules lawyer you on exact phrasing, play implication games, try to leave vague clauses in that let them manipulate their obligations, and dozens of other tricks.

What they don't do is go "ha ha, I was speaking 14th century English and therefore inverted the meaning of this critical clause".

There are a few possible reasons for this. It might be that they can't. That the same rules that stop them from lying compel them to speak in an understandable local language and dialect so that they can't do something like "invent" a language that sounds just like English or whatever, but has some critical semantic differences that let them lie to your face.

This would be a reasonable assumption, since we know the courts are designer organisms built for the gates and that their bindings are made to facilitate using them for that purpose.

It could also be that they're simply smart enough not to do this, because trying stuff like this would absolutely burn their ability to make deals.

They fey have to do a lot of business with a lot of people to stay in operation, they can and do play like contract lawyers but they can't play like sore losers.

Yog said:

Again, I think I was misunderstood. Let's do this point by point. My opinion is:
1) Mab is capable of making deals where both parties objectively benefit
2) Mab is fundamentally incapable of trusting anyone and always expects betrayal
3) Mab is wholly dedicated to her mission / goal / function, to the point where calling her a paperclip maximizer is, while not strictly correct, isn't totally wrong either
4) Outside of her mission-related actions and behavior, Mab is, at best, a broken nearly insane woman worthy of pity. At worst she's a sadist actively deriving pleasure from suffering of others.
5) Because of point 2, any deal Mab makes (barring exceptional circumstances where she is forced to act otherwise) has to benefit Mab no less than the other party. So, for example, if we gain X units of "power" out of a deal, Mab also has to gain X or more units of power out of said deal. To do otherwise would be to make herself more open to betrayal than she was prior to the deal, and to risk her mission / goal / purpose. Because she expects everyone to betray her and can't trust anyone.

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I don't really agree with this characterization of her, or of the implications you're drawing.

Firstly, she isn't human and hasn't been for a long time. Playing arm chair psychologist is a mistake because Sidhe do not think like or have the same needs as mortals even if they're close in a lot of ways. Treating her as mentally broken and pitiable woman with godlike power is an excellent way to underestimate and misunderstand what she can and will do, which is often a fatal mistake.

Secondly, it's objectively false that Mab can only offer bad deals. She says she doesn't trust people, but she effectively replaces that with her trust in other's motives and interests.

A fundamental part of doing business is finding what the relative value of the available goods/services are and trading things that each party values more than what they gave up to get them.

What she will do though is get the absolute most she can for her money, and be unapologetically ruthless about it.

If she couldn't do that the Accords wouldn't exist, and she couldn't effectively operate in the favor economy of immortals.

For your proposition to be true and canon to look the same she'd have to be able to stomp on most of the world's face and make them like it. Mab is very skilled at all kinds of things, has either the strongest or one of the strongest supernatural nations, and significant personal power; none of it would be nearly enough to make something like that work.

If she tried Winter would bleed influence like a stuck pig until the Mothers stepped in, her own nobility ate her alive*, or other powers got together and pressured the court (politically and militarily) into a settlement.

We don't have to like Mab, she is a monster in a lot of significant ways, but treating her like she's whatever mix of mentally incompetent and scary that is needed at the moment to justify throwing hands with winter is a mistake.

* Possibly literally. Winter doesn't play around.

Edit: minor tweak to fix run on sentence.

Edit: autocorrect

Yog said:

If not for the inviolable and absolute nature of exaltation that laughs at puny remains of Sorcery, yes, SCE as written should remove exaltations from mortals.

Mantles are definitely akin to spirits. They are a type of power / non-corporeal entity with their own minds that apempower and affect their bearers.

What is a difference between a fomori bane and a mantle? Between a whampire hunger and a mantle?

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This is ExWoD, not Ex2. Shits a little lowerpowered here.
Even back in Creation, Sorcery wasnt guaranteed to work against shit like raksha, or some of the more powerful demons.
Next you'll argue that SCE can exorcise the Swords of the Cross. Or a Denarian Coin.

Furthermore, its worth remembering that Ancient Sorcery is not some Exalt-only prerequisite. In Exalted 2E any mortal sorcerer, a lot of gods, and some demons could learn and cast Sorcery. With Holden flattening this out in ExWoD, anyone with Occult 3 and access to Essence can cast it.

Abyssals, Lunars, Sidereals, Dragonbloods, Exigents, Liminals, Alchemicals.
But also Dragons, powerful gods and spirits, Yama Kings, naagloshii.
Wizards.

We could teach this to Dresden by RAW if he has Occult 3; certainly Lydia can learn any of them.Hard to cast, but she can learn.


Mantles are characterized as receptacles of power and purpose; they arent alive any more than a computer algorithm is, and most definitely arent spirits. Maeve would not have been walking around for at least five years with a Nemesis infection allowing her to subvert a basic precept of being Fae if the Mantle was alive and sapient, or even sentient.

If Mantles were spirits, there would be no need for the various holders of the Mantles; they'd just direct themselves.

Yog said:

Their threat is implicit to everyone who knows of the gates. It's formulated as "everything we do is to better protect the gates, if you are opposing us, you are endangering reality". That makes them allies with those who know of the gates. For those who don't It's "we are extremely cruel, vindictive and are allies with a lot of other powers. Do you want to be on our side or opposed to us?"

Winter's political power is very much based on threats and perceived military powe

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Your definition of threats doesnt meet the reasonable person threshold.
I mean, thats the equivalent of saying that every military veteran with firearms at home is implicitly threatening their neighbors everytime they have a conversation. Or that any big fit dude is implicitly threatening violence when they make a request.

Literally if anyone accepted this paradigm of yours, we would have to discount soft power as a thing in the setting altogether.

Artemis1992 said:

I was assuming we would perma-kill her as soon as we got her out of the human host?
After all she called our threats a bluff, we have to make a point here. And it even keeps with our promise to mom, nobody will know what happened here, except for Emma-O noticing that yet another spirit did not return, so no new information for anyone.

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Im not assuming that we get the opportunity to do so.
In Exalted 2E, all the Banishment spells, if successful, would punt the target back to their realm of origin, instead of leaving them free to roam the mortal world, or even to try to repossess the victim. I assume this might do something similar.

DragonParadox said:

As she understands it yes, the text of the ritual is similar to what Arwan used in some regards only without the transfer part and a lot more firmly worded. That said it would not work on an immortal and Molly does not know how hard it would be for say Titania to re-knight Fix if he were exorcised against his will.

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Here's the problem with that ruling:
This is Ancient Sorcery. Its not gated by Exaltation or Essence level or nature, just by access to Essence and knowledge.
If we didnt take the Brigid's Heir Merit, we would have been finding the spells with wizards and monsters and the like.

Any of the big players, or even a lower player with the right knowledge, can cast it.

Mortals could cast it with access to a Dragons Nest or some sorcerous item that stores Essence. This ruling essentially raises the question of why Nemesis and similar Outsider types, or the Yama Kings closer to home, havent been fucking with Winter and Summer by teaching mortal agents and turning them loose.

Also worth noting that once we draw this ritual, the Archive will know it.

uju32 said:

Furthermore, its worth remembering that Ancient Sorcery is not some Exalt-only prerequisite. In Exalted 2E any mortal sorcerer, a lot of gods, and some demons could learn and cast Sorcery. With Holden flattening this out in ExWoD, anyone with Occult 3 and access to Essence can cast it.

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I think that was rebalanced here. It's the same reason that we know that the calibration gate spell will go through any and every defense against it. DP gave Ancient Sorcery some buffs to make it worth the 10 exp to buy.

Our prior discussions on how to teach people it have implied that doing so is complicated and is more about authority than simply power and knowledge.

Mantles are probably not a valid target in most circumstances, but that's a matter of being a valid target and not power.

Edit:

Here are some relevant posts:

DragonParadox said:

My thoughts are that you should not try to use ancient sorcery to try to beat the Merlin in a wizard duel, but those things it does it does to a inescapable extent, like the above mentioned kicking a Fallen out of their host by main force. To put it in programing terms you have root access to reality, but it it though a legacy system that has been mostly overwritten.

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DragonParadox said:

I mean it will work, that is kind of Ancient Sorcery's thing, it is limited on what effects you can pry from the maw of ages but it has primacy. The thing is it will produce a Lasciel fetich soul outside of Harry and outside the Coin, it's exorcism not banishing from whence it came, so once it is out of Harry the spell has done it's job. If you did it to a full Fallen inside its host it would return to coin but metaphysically Lash belongs in Harry's head until he picks up the coin or he dies... or she dies as she did in White Night. If you unbind her from that with Sapphire Circle Exorcism Usum's best guess is she would be loose in the world as a spirit.

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DragonParadox said:

Mortals, like plain old vanilla humans? No, non-Exalted supernatural beings, maybe. The thing is unlike mortal magic Ancient Socery starts from the premise of 'I have authority over this thing of my own intrinsic nature' and then continue with *hacks the N patches ago source code of the universe*. Putting power behind one of those things as a mortal wizard will kill you, both might just write you out of existence. Now could some unseen genius have found a way around that technically... again maybe. It would take a lot of time, a lot of skill and no small amount of luck.

It is not something you guys should even anticipate teaching a mortal.

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BronzeTongue said:

I think that was rebalanced here. It's the same reason that we know that the calibration gate spell will go through any and every defense against it. DP gave Ancient Sorcery some buffs to make it worth the 10 exp to buy.

Our prior discussions on how to teach people it have implied that doing so is complicated and is more about authority than simply power and knowledge.

Mantles are probably not a valid target in most circumstances, but that's a matter of being a valid target and not power.

Edit:

Here are some relevant posts:

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Thank you for the citations.
That suggests vampires might be able to learn. Or bakemono. Maybe even a mortal with a patron thats providing Sponsored Magic.
I wonder whether a Denarian, or an Outsider-possessed mortal would do.

BronzeTongue said:

Firstly, she isn't human and hasn't been for a long time. Playing arm chair psychologist is a mistake because Sidhe do not think like or have the same needs as mortals even if they're close in a lot of ways. Treating her as mentally broken and pitiable woman with godlike power is an excellent way to underestimate and misunderstand what she can and will do, which is often a fatal mistake.

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Mab truly believes that the mantles / elder and more powerful members of fae courts get to change who and what new mantle holders are. The most likely explanation for that is that she herself was changed in such a manner. That's pitiable.

uju32 said:

Next you'll argue that SCE can exorcise the Swords of the Cross. Or a Denarian Coin.

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Almost certainly yes, actually. Assuming the coin and the sword are actually man-made, damn yes SCE should be able to exorcise them. Same as it should be able to evict Bob from its skull. The issue with that is that it'll leave an unbound (fallen) angel standing near its former vessel.

uju32 said:

We could teach this to Dresden by RAW if he has Occult 3; certainly Lydia can learn any of them.Hard to cast, but she can learn.

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It has been stated repeatedly when asked - Dresden can't use Ancient Sorcery. He doesn't have the correct permissions for that, it's not a matter of power.

uju32 said:

I mean, thats the equivalent of saying that every military veteran with firearms at home is implicitly threatening their neighbors everytime they have a conversation. Or that any big fit dude is implicitly threatening violence when they make a request.

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The second example yes, depending on other factors, every interaction can be considered to be an implicit threat. If said dude was antisocial, and spent time in jail for murder, or spent his time butchering stray dogs and walking around wearing their entrails as a cap, then damn yes, I would consider each and every of his request to be backed by an implicit capability for sudden and overwhelming violence.

Winter is known to be able to ruler lawyer a lot of things, is known to be cruel, vindictive, very powerful and very sadistic. Given that, yes, it's reasonable to assume that most, if not all interactions with Winter carry a threat of violence in them at a merest provocation.

If you want an example of soft power, use summer, or, better yet, use Uriel the galaxy buster. When an angel asks you to do something, you do it without thinking about their amazing galaxy busting power. You are welcoming them in their home not because to do otherwise would be to open yourself to attack by them due to slighting them, unlike winter.[/QUOTE]

uju32 said:

Thank you for the citations.
That suggests vampires might be able to learn. Or bakemono. Maybe even a mortal with a patron thats providing Sponsored Magic.
I wonder whether a Denarian, or an Outsider-possessed mortal would do.

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From the context I don't think it's a simple thing they can learn from a book, or that is necessarily something that works in an all or nothing way.

You need to have a relevant form of authority, significant power, and access to screw with mostly overwritten laws of reality.

The last is a good reason to think even most gods can't figure it out alone, because it requires deep lore that just isn't around anymore to learn.

The first is a good reason to think that even with the lore most people wouldn't be able to use just any spell. Molly is a green sun princess; she technically has authority over everything by the rules of ancient sorcery since her exaltation was granted it from the gods as a solar and from the Yozi as an infernal.

Exaltations operate on no take backs rules with power, so good luck getting that license to manipulate reality back after you've handed it out.

Arawn might be able to use his authority over death and some lessons from us on the old rules to cast something like Iron Shade Binding, but I don't think he'd implicitly have the credentials to use Impervious Sphere of Water.

For supernatural critters I think it'd depend on their lineage and position.

Black court vamps might be able to cast death AS for the same reasons Arawn could, but what right would a white court vampire invoke to do the same?

Things like that would go a long way towards explaining why effects like this haven't already been partially dug up and used to dramatically alter the setting before we even showed up.

The right mix of power and authority doesn't always line up for the stuff any one person can actually get knowledge of.

Depending on what "starborn" is (especially in this mixed setting, where it can mean anything and everything, including "was destined to be a sidereal if not for the black vault interfering"), Dresden might actually be able to cast binding and exorcism charms. It's not very likely, but possible.

BronzeTongue said:

The right mix of power and authority doesn't always line up for the stuff any one person can actually get knowledge of.

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Naagloshii might be using Awakened eye of the Dragon in its home territory, or something similar.

Yog said:

Depending on what "starborn" is (especially in this mixed setting, where it can mean anything and everything, including "was destined to be a sidereal if not for the black vault interfering"), Dresden might actually be able to cast binding and exorcism charms. It's not very likely, but possible.

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I'm leaning towards probably not since he's still a mortal, but maybe.

Yog said:

Naagloshii might be using Awakened eye of the Dragon in its home territory, or something similar.

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That I could see being possible, but not actually in practice. Ancient sorcery is some pretty deep lore, and if something like a Naagloshi could get access there are a lot of people with better reach who would arguably be able to do the same.

It'd make more sense if the modern powers are invested in studying and exploiting the modern rules. Or at least ones from the more recent iterations of reality.

I could see them having something to get a similar buff, but one with limits more in tune with how the world currently works.

BronzeTongue said:

From the context I don't think it's a simple thing they can learn from a book, or that is necessarily something that works in an all or nothing way.

You need to have a relevant form of authority, significant power, and access to screw with mostly overwritten laws of reality.

The last is a good reason to think even most gods can't figure it out alone, because it requires deep lore that just isn't around anymore to learn.

The first is a good reason to think that even with the lore most people wouldn't be able to use just any spell. Molly is a green sun princess; she technically has authority over everything by the rules of ancient sorcery since her exaltation was granted it from the gods as a solar and from the Yozi as an infernal.

Exaltations operate on no take backs rules with power, so good luck getting that license to manipulate reality back after you've handed it out.

Arawn might be able to use his authority over death and some lessons from us on the old rules to cast something like Iron Shade Binding, but I don't think he'd implicitly have the credentials to use Impervious Sphere of Water.

For supernatural critters I think it'd depend on their lineage and position.

Black court vamps might be able to cast death AS for the same reasons Arawn could, but what right would a white court vampire invoke to do the same?

Things like that would go a long way towards explaining why effects like this haven't already been partially dug up and used to dramatically alter the setting before we even showed up.

The right mix of power and authority doesn't always line up for the stuff any one person can actually get knowledge of.

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white court don't even have normal magic or 99% of them don't at least.

firefrog600 said:

white court don't even have normal magic or 99% of them don't at least.

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That was my point; just being a supernatural creature doesn't necessarily give you authority on the scale of ancient sorcery.

As far as anything in canon indicates, the white court doesn't have a big sponsor the way the black court (and technically red court) does.

They're far from the only ones too.

BronzeTongue said:

That was my point; just being a supernatural creature doesn't necessarily give you authority on the scale of ancient sorcery.

As far as anything in canon indicates, the white court doesn't have a big sponsor the way the black court (and technically red court) does.

They're far from the only ones too.

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At least they probably don't there might of been some big thing (relative to humanity) thousands of years ago when they pulled off whatever changed them. But, yeah pretty much just wanted to add that to the conversation.

On the chapter itself, this is one of those times where I really wish we could be a fly on the wall of Uriel's proverbial office.

He and the white god seem to know a decent amount about exaltations, but knowing that we have a specific merit to pick up that old school magic is a different animal.

Feels like describing original brand hell and the order of the universe as told in Malfeas' diary might be an oh shit moment for the guys currently running the show.

I honestly think that our getting the Exaltation was part of the White God's plan. At least in the sense that, once it became inevitable that an Infernal Exaltation would be unleashed, fate manipulation made sure that it would go to the best candidate, which was us. The circumstances of our Exaltation were a little too convenient for someone with such strong moral fiber to be simultaneously the perfect candidate at the time and right there when the Exaltation was unleashed, while in a perfect position to be influenced by a Knight of the Cross in our early days of Exaltation.

[X] I know a spell of exorcism, but I am going to need some time to brew the potions necessary for healing

bengalqueen said:

I honestly think that our getting the Exaltation was part of the White God's plan. At least in the sense that, once it became inevitable that an Infernal Exaltation would be unleashed, fate manipulation made sure that it would go to the best candidate, which was us. The circumstances of our Exaltation were a little too convenient for someone with such strong moral fiber to be simultaneously the perfect candidate at the time and right there when the Exaltation was unleashed, while in a perfect position to be influenced by a Knight of the Cross in our early days of Exaltation.

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Maybe. The white god is pretty bullshit, but this would be a very interesting plot for him, cause he doesn't usually go for the "bestow awesome cosmic power" solution. The knights are Uriel playing risky games and even they are limited in a lot of ways.

He's also not typically the sort to put you in a situation where you do what he wants or risk death.

It's possible, but it's worth taking considering Molly's take on this sort of thing:

DragonParadox said:

Coincidences do happen, you remember your dad telling you when you were a kid. if we try to see a direct sign from the divine in everything that happens pretty soon we will be trying to read the future in the flights of birds and if we have our necks craned up to look at the birds we might trip on the road we are walking.

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uju32 said:

Next you'll argue that SCE can exorcise the Swords of the Cross. Or a Denarian Coin.

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Sapphire Ritual of Exorcism can pry the angels out of the Swords or Coins, that is part of what the spell explicitly does boot spirits out of physical vessels and it has no limitations on the power of the spirit.

Now exorcising a Blackened Denarius is a terrible idea as it leaves the previously bound Fallen free to do the exact same things as it was already doing, only now it can wanderer around freely instead of being localised to the Coin, but it could be done.

BronzeTongue said:

Maybe. The white god is pretty bullshit, but this would be a very interesting plot for him, cause he doesn't usually go for the "bestow awesome cosmic power" solution. The knights are Uriel playing risky games and even they are limited in a lot of ways.

He's also not typically the sort to put you in a situation where you do what he wants or risk death.

It's possible, but it's worth taking considering Molly's take on this sort of thing:

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Yeah, but I meant that the planning only happened once it became clear that the Exaltation finding a new Chosen was, again, inevitable. Because it was found and taken to the dungeon of Winter, so it was going to get out sooner or later. And nothing sane sees the incoming possibility of a Solaroid Exaltation running loose and doesn't try to manipulate the outcome to some extent.

And I think the events of Arctis Tor were partially the White God's plan in canon, so it can't be really ruled out.

bengalqueen said:

And I think the events of Arctis Tor were partially the White God's plan in canon, so it can't be really ruled out.

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Weren't those hints about it being a broader plan related to someone putting a thumb on the scales to get Molly to consider using mind magic?

That is very, very, off brand for the white god. He might not protect people's free will all cases, but he doesn't set them up to have it violated.

BronzeTongue said:

Weren't those hints about it being a broader plan related to someone putting a thumb on the scales to get Molly to consider using mind magic?

That is very, very, off brand for the white god. He might not protect people's free will all cases, but he doesn't set them up to have it violated.

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could technically be humans free will to become monsters.
I mostly kid still not really sure why people think white court existence, red court, and such violates free will though. All of them have a decision until they don't. At which point their no longer human. Especially so for red court since its just one decision.

barring black court and outsiders though honestly the former could be connected to outsiders their at least something other.

BronzeTongue said:

That I could see being possible, but not actually in practice. Ancient sorcery is some pretty deep lore, and if something like a Naagloshi could get access there are a lot of people with better reach who would arguably be able to do the same.

It'd make more sense if the modern powers are invested in studying and exploiting the modern rules. Or at least ones from the more recent iterations of reality.

I could see them having something to get a similar buff, but one with limits more in tune with how the world currently works.

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Naagloshii are supposed to be corrupted and rogue servitors of ancient native American divinity akin to valkyries. Depending on what their masters knew, they might also know something, or echoes of something. Of named characters, Odin is the most likely one to know some Ancient Sorcery.

Also, I'd like to point out that, if she somehow wasn't interested in us before this (what with the whole "invoke Perfected Principle of Consumption" event), Archive should be very interested in us right now, or will become once we write down the spell circle.

Aeondrac said:

Sapphire Ritual of Exorcism can pry the angels out of the Swords or Coins, that is part of what the spell explicitly does boot spirits out of physical vessels and it has no limitations on the power of the spirit.

Now exorcising a Blackened Denarius is a terrible idea as it leaves the previously bound Fallen free to do the exact same things as it was already doing, only now it can wanderer around freely instead of being localised to the Coin, but it could be done.

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Depending on how they interact, if we also have Devil-Refining Cauldron, and possibly Sinner Boiling Stare, this might be a viable strategy to get fetishes N/A. First SBS the fallen while they are still bound into the coin, then SCE it out, and finally DRC it directly into a newly prepared vessel.

Vote closed, looks like Father Forthil is not about to get an eyewitness account of the Demon City. Guess he still has a few more nights of nightmare free sleep in him

Yog said:

Naagloshii are supposed to be corrupted and rogue servitors of ancient native American divinity akin to valkyries. Depending on what their masters knew, they might also know something, or echoes of something. Of named characters, Odin is the most likely one to know some Ancient Sorcery.

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Yeah, but the age of legends was so long ago the world had to be remade; Possibly more than one at that.

Valkyries and divine messengers like that shouldn't have the depth of knowledge needed. If they did other people would too, and ancient sorcery has some setting breaking implications to it at scale. To make sense the explanation for how this works needs to describe why people haven't already flipped the board.

firefrog600 said:

could technically be humans free will to become monsters.

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What are you talking about? The thing I'm referencing is Molly's assault on Rosie and her boyfriend. Which was direct mind editing to control their behavior. The white god wouldn't have an Angel whisper that idea in someone's ear.

firefrog600 said:

I mostly kid still not really sure why people think white court existence, red court, and such violates free will though. All of them have a decision until they don't. At which point their no longer human. Especially so for red court since its just one decision.

barring black court and outsiders though honestly the former could be connected to outsiders their at least something other.

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Cause you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

The issue with balancing the books on free will in the Dresden Files is that it's inconsistent. Black court vamps can hold you down and lobotomize your soul until you're basically a flesh robot, and the white god's dudes won't do anything about it unless they happen to be around at the time.

Before you get into the whole thing about other people's choices and chains of consequences as you have before; I'm of the opinion that that stuff is irrelevant. If you can justify overtly taking someone's ability to make choices with that then you can justify anything, and you're no longer talking about free will as most people conceptualize it even if you're using the same term.

BronzeTongue said:

Cause you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

The issue with balancing the books on free will in the Dresden Files is that it's inconsistent. Black court vamps can hold you down and lobotomize your soul until you're basically a flesh robot, and the white god's dudes won't do anything about it unless they happen to be around at the time.

Before you get into the whole thing about other people's choices and chains of consequences as you have before; I'm of the opinion that that stuff is irrelevant. If you can justify overtly taking someone's ability to make choices with that then you can justify anything, and you're no longer talking about free will as most people conceptualize it even if you're using the same term.

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Yeah, it's weird. I think the minimal fix here is to interpret that the black court vamps outright murder people when doing that, and then create Renfields (quite literally flesh robots) from the corpse before it has time to rot. Free will doesn't protect you from getting killed, and the people who became Renfields are dead, the body is moving for nonhuman reasons.

This contradicts the books where Butcher says Renfields are still partly human under the Sight, but arguably Butcher also contradicts himself when saying becoming a Renfield is irreversible and incurable. "Mere" control would be curable.