Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
The point isn't necessarily how physical the overt transformation is as I see it.
A Bakemono is still a fusion of human and bane spirit. It's explicitly spiritual symbiosis or parasitism depending on the setup, and from the last few chapters it's apparently distinct enough a union that you can still identify distinct targets to social inside of one of them.
Charms could change that but if they didn't come out in roughly the same pattern then they aren't really the same sort of being, and the intent of the charms is to make Bakemono.
A red vampire converts the human into something else, body and soul.
You can separate oil and water, but you can't unbake a cake.
… I wasn't really trying to suggest improvements. I wanted to underline why it was a bad idea to try this.
DF supernaturals live for exploiting things like this. The question isn't what the best or neutral case for a device going off is like, it's what an intelligent enemy will do when they find out about this and exploit it.
Consider what our last fight would have been like if we'd been running around like that and the greater Akuma figured out how to trigger it and interrupted our Shintai transformation or something.
I'm not completely against using it, just trying to play it all the time and being so obvious about it.
A better idea for intermittent field uses like this would be to carry around cyber devil claymore explosive equivalents*.
From the outside they have any number of explanations, some of which are stupid but few to none of which imply we're drawing power from them just sitting there.
Personal equipment would draw eyes like Nicodemus' magic noose, and give people the thread to tug to exploit it against us.
We wouldn't be able to use it all the time, but I honestly think it's stretching things too much to try.
* If we want to get real fancy, build them into RC drones so that cyber devils can be instructed to autonomously mine buildings by landing at the exits as we go inside.
Maybe.
I think the issue would be that the fallen have the socials to make a diff 9 check to convince them, and if forgetting the bond doesn't break it the coins can probably still one ring themselves back to their bearers.
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Auto corrupt.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Debatable to say the least. I know it wont amount to anything but ill vote to save the xp anyways on principle.
[X] No, trust that the exorcism will work
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Also while in thoery this might be a good ritual to have in our pocket in practice how often will we be willing to spend 5 Essence on something that will only maybe work? I honestly don't see people voting to use it even when it is an option. It's too expensive.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We have a high enough Intelligence + Occult, and have Occult as a key ability, that we have a 95%+ chance of it working even without stunts, Excellencies, or difficulty reducers (I did the math), and there is nothing that the subject of the ritual, or anyone else, can do to stop it if we complete the ritual and succeed on the roll (which, again, better than 95% chance). And it works on any form of possession, including Nemesis infection, with no way for the spirit to resist the exorcism itself no matter how powerful it is, because the difficulty is set no matter what is being exorcised. That's a lot more than it maybe working. That just works.
But bad faith surrenders are okay. Cassius basically did that, and given how easy it is for Harry to just summon his coin at will if he wanted to it seems likely that the reason he didn't immediately get it back was because his partner decided he was a bad investment.
Great chance in this case is more near certainty.
She'd be taking 10 dice of lethal at DC 6, and can't soak it. Which is roughly equivalent to double tapping with a heavy pistol or getting caught in SSB's AoE mode.
Based on the dice calculators I'm using she's got a ~72% chance of at least 4 damage, a ~57% of at least 5, and a ~27% chance of taking at least 7.
Even assuming kids don't have a reduced health track, she's still more likely than not to nearly hit the end of it if she doesn't die on the spot.
With the right lab setup we can get it up to 22-25 dice, depending on if our specialty applies, at difficulty 4. Which is just hilariously overkill for almost anything you could be trying to do.
Catching up.
And we know nothing about what went on between them in the interim; its been whispering in her ear for a lot longer than we've been here.
I just didnt think the mechanics suggested we could reliably pull off Legendary success levels in this situation.
But that was my reasoning.
The text on Chi balance on Page 81 of Kindred of The East explicitly repeats the same thing as on page 13: paralysis not torpor.
Torpor/Little Death is due to either
=zero chi
=losing all their health levels to bashing/lethal damage but still having chi in their body, which kicks out their souls from their body for several days until their body can regen at least 1 Chi point to heal 1HL.
=or getting hit with some magics, which induces it for some time
2)That does not appear to be true for ExWoD.
There's charms in the Infernal charmset for making a bakemono and reversing the process.
Red Court vampires are not really comparable to fomor IMO.
There is no WoG as to their nature, but the hints we are given
Suggest that Reds might have the memory of the person they originally were, but either the person was transformed into something else, or that the hunger demon thing has kicked them out of their soul.
The closest thing there is in the Dresdenverse to fomor are Whites.
DC6 is Standard difficulty. DC7 is Challenging. DC8 is Difficult. DC9 is Extremely Difficult.
And then degrees of success range from bare pass 1 sux, to 5 sux for Legendary levels of success.
This was a situation where we had to intimidate a demon of Kakuri that wasnt already intimidated by us killing a greater akuma, or the presence of a Sword. At least, not intimidated enough to flee without trying to damage the kid out of spite.
It was characterized as being the sort of thing that would normally require a capital S Saint, and we are still an E2 Infernal.
I dont think it was ever reasonable to assume that we would need less than Legendary successes, possibly multiple Legendaries in order to pull this off. And I didnt like our odds of rolling that.
Moot point now, but that was my reasoning at the time.
Interesting that Molly keeps thinking of Lash as Lasciel, despite having the Occult to know better, and the importance of names.
I would have thought she would have started using a different name to distinguish the Fallen and its Shadow, even if just inside her own head.
Loling at Mouse's approval here. Dresden must be feeling ganged up on.
A little surprised that exorcism is being ruled as not being in Amoracchius' portfolio.
I certainly recall Agatha in Grave Peril got murked by Amoracchius. And Amoracchius did kinetic banishment of the demon that Kravos summoned back when he was alive. And Michael certainly tried to exorcise Corpsetaker in Lydia, but just rolled badly.
Maybe its just not seeing the need to do so.
Between Forthill, Molly and Michael, any or all of them should be able to exorcise the demon without bringing in the Sword.
I do wonder how we managed to get Chicago to give custody of a minor child to a church priest with no escort.
Chicago's old boy networks acting to our benefit for once?
So a fallen tengu? One of the Hsien, once upon a time.
So failure.
Not surprising; there was always a significant chance of failure in attempting to do this.
But its worth remembering for the future, that DC7 is a 40% chance of success on a single dice roll.
A little surprised that consecrated ground didnt count for an extra DC modifier or dice bonus of its own.
But those are the breaks I guess.
I wonder if Usum came up with that Occult insight on his own, or if Someone's people nudged him?
Uriel has always favored the light touch, and its entirely possible that talking to/nudging a spirit doesnt count as per the Rules.
Certainly, Molly might not have the greatest Per + Awareness, but this is her home church where she attends regular service, and she hasnt felt that the church atmosphere like that before.
There's watchers about.
Hmm. Health potions are currently 4.8 hours to cook up a pair simultaneously.
It should be entirely within Molly's capabilities to drive back to Harry's place, make a pair of health potions, then come back to the church.
Alternatively?
Just go back and pick them up, stunting that she spent part of October 4, the day after the battle, making some just in case some of the Jade Dogs or Lydia needed it. Or that Harry did.
If its not out yet by the time she returns, she exorcises it. Extreme prejudice.
That means the akuma were bound at Harry's place for all of October 4, which means Molly would have been onsite for most of the day just in case. Enough time for Molly to have cooked up extra health potions, just in case.
You cant spend unlimited amounts of WP in a turn.
The demon saw/perceived us; I have my doubts about whether the girl did.
And we know nothing about what went on between them in the interim; its been whispering in her ear for a lot longer than we've been here.
I just didnt think the mechanics suggested we could reliably pull off Legendary success levels in this situation.
But that was my reasoning.
1)No, you are mistaken.
The text on Chi balance on Page 81 of Kindred of The East explicitly repeats the same thing as on page 13: paralysis not torpor.
Torpor/Little Death is due to either
=zero chi
=losing all their health levels to bashing/lethal damage but still having chi in their body, which kicks out their souls from their body for several days until their body can regen at least 1 Chi point to heal 1HL.
=or getting hit with some magics, which induces it for some time
2)That does not appear to be true for ExWoD.
There's charms in the Infernal charmset for making a bakemono and reversing the process.
Red Court vampires are not really comparable to fomor IMO.
There is no WoG as to their nature, but the hints we are given
Butcher, Jim. Grave Peril (The Dresden Files, Book 3) (p. 309). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The closest thing there is in the Dresdenverse to fomor are Whites.
My dude, as you will notice from my math, I was more generous than the QM, because I capped my DCs at 9 instead of 12.
DC6 is Standard difficulty. DC7 is Challenging. DC8 is Difficult. DC9 is Extremely Difficult.
And then degrees of success range from bare pass 1 sux, to 5 sux for Legendary levels of success.
This was a situation where we had to intimidate a demon of Kakuri that wasnt already intimidated by us killing a greater akuma, or the presence of a Sword. At least, not intimidated enough to flee without trying to damage the kid out of spite.
It was characterized as being the sort of thing that would normally require a capital S Saint, and we are still an E2 Infernal.
I dont think it was ever reasonable to assume that we would need less than Legendary successes, possibly multiple Legendaries in order to pull this off. And I didnt like our odds of rolling that.
Moot point now, but that was my reasoning at the time.
COMMENTARY
Interesting that Molly keeps thinking of Lash as Lasciel, despite having the Occult to know better, and the importance of names.
I would have thought she would have started using a different name to distinguish the Fallen and its Shadow, even if just inside her own head.
Loling at Mouse's approval here. Dresden must be feeling ganged up on.
A little surprised that exorcism is being ruled as not being in Amoracchius' portfolio.
I certainly recall Agatha in Grave Peril got murked by Amoracchius. And Amoracchius did kinetic banishment of the demon that Kravos summoned back when he was alive. And Michael certainly tried to exorcise Corpsetaker in Lydia, but just rolled badly.
Maybe its just not seeing the need to do so.
Between Forthill, Molly and Michael, any or all of them should be able to exorcise the demon without bringing in the Sword.
COMMENTARY
I do wonder how we managed to get Chicago to give custody of a minor child to a church priest with no escort.
Chicago's old boy networks acting to our benefit for once?
So a fallen tengu? One of the Hsien, once upon a time.
So failure.
Not surprising; there was always a significant chance of failure in attempting to do this.
But its worth remembering for the future, that DC7 is a 40% chance of success on a single dice roll.
A little surprised that consecrated ground didnt count for an extra DC modifier or dice bonus of its own.
But those are the breaks I guess.
I wonder if Usum came up with that Occult insight on his own, or if Someone's people nudged him?
Uriel has always favored the light touch, and its entirely possible that talking to/nudging a spirit doesnt count as per the Rules.
Certainly, Molly might not have the greatest Per + Awareness, but this is her home church where she attends regular service, and she hasnt felt that the church atmosphere like that before.
There's watchers about.
Hmm. Health potions are currently 4.8 hours to cook up a pair simultaneously.
It should be entirely within Molly's capabilities to drive back to Harry's place, make a pair of health potions, then come back to the church.
Alternatively?
Just go back and pick them up, stunting that she spent part of October 4, the day after the battle, making some just in case some of the Jade Dogs or Lydia needed it. Or that Harry did.
If its not out yet by the time she returns, she exorcises it. Extreme prejudice.
The raid and everything happened on October 3. The Librarians showed up for the akuma on October 5.
That means the akuma were bound at Harry's place for all of October 4, which means Molly would have been onsite for most of the day just in case. Enough time for Molly to have cooked up extra health potions, just in case.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Honestly, we don't get any benefit to extra successes, anyway, since it either works or it doesn't. Just triggering CCC with a "Lock the room and don't open it under any circumstances until the exorcism is complete," which is a normal precaution to be taking with these sorts of things, brings the failure probability of the ritual down to just under 0.04%. Full setup with Excellency is overkill.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Thinking about this more it feels like double dipping. We were facing a high DC because of the difficulty of the task. And the rules are that any successes means that you have in fact succeeded at the task. The task in question being driving out the demon.
For this to require 5 success doesn't seem right. That would be both driving out the demon and cowing it into being our loyal servant. It would be different if the demon had successfully rolled more willpower success then we got, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
Have to admit, having a DC 12 does seem like it was already enough to show how difficult the task was supposed to be, the needing five successes is overkill, or at least it is unless this was an opposed roll and the QM didn't show the Demon's side.
Easy?No. Doable? Yes. See Death Rites, where Harry, Michael and Sanya cornered Snaky Boy in a motel room.
Or earlier in the same book, when Susan Rodriguez the half-Red literally beats Deirdre Archleone unconscious with an ironing board.
Sufficient force or preparation will do it.
Alternatively, Molly makes a Spell-Capturing Cord analogue to store a precast spell.
The same way linear sorcerers can hang a spell.
Exalted Craft is good for that sort of thing.
She's well on the way to becoming Earth's...not Sorcerer Supreme, but closer to a Dr Fate than a Dr Strange.
Forging an Eye of Agamotto as an instrument of office should be on the table.
But thats for the future.
I wonder if Crowned with Fury would work on possessing demons without affecting their hosts.If one is ruthless enough and you had said Nick as a prisoner without his demon... well Crowned with Fury is a thing and he would know quite a lot.
Just mind-control them and compel them to leave.
Wont work on big Names like Fallen or Nemesis of course.
But lesser demons? Ghosts?
Seem like fair game.
Its the QM's prerogative to require that especially difficult tasks require more than a bare success.
And this is up there on the difficulty rolls.
We were trying to intimidate a hostile, desperate demon into doing our will.
Into willingly going back to the Hells where it would be lowest of the low to be ordered about or tormented at will, with no freedom. Instead of up here on Earth where it gets to command a helpless girl around and noone is torturing it.
Every hour it spends up here is an hour its not spending in the Thousand Hells.
Its entirely possible it would brave Final Death as an alternative to being confined in Yomi Wan again.
Consider how much animus Usum bears towards Kakuri, for example.
If we werent who we were, we wouldnt even have gotten the opportunity to try the roll.
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The number of successes are because of what you were asking the demon to do (carefully and painlessly) extract itself from its host. Something more in line with its nature would have requires fewer successes. There is a reason why demonologists use spells, generally speaking you cannot just scare a demon into doing what you want even if it is something more in line with its nature.
We've gotten non-standard rewards before on things like the ward raising, so there's always the possibility that we get something like that.
If nothing else I'd hope that getting multiple break points of successes would at least throughly traumatize the thing we're casting out.
VOTE
[x] Reach out for the spark within, let it illuminate your path (-10 XP for this Arc; Gain Sapphire Ritual of Exorcism)
We need this spell anyway before Mab, and possibly before we meet Justine.
A reputation for keeping our word, for good and for ill, is very useful in the supernatural world.
Next time we make a threat, there'll be less laughter.
Not to mention that doing this in front of Father Forthill is certain to make its way up the lines to the clued-in portions of the Catholic Church and those they talk to, which translates to a certain amount of influence being thrown our way in the event someone needs a favor with regards to difficult/sensitive possession cases.
[x] Reach out for the spark within, let it illuminate your path (-10 XP for this Arc; Gain Sapphire Ritual of Exorcism)
We need this spell anyway before Mab, and possibly before we meet Justine.
A reputation for keeping our word, for good and for ill, is very useful in the supernatural world.
Next time we make a threat, there'll be less laughter.
Not to mention that doing this in front of Father Forthill is certain to make its way up the lines to the clued-in portions of the Catholic Church and those they talk to, which translates to a certain amount of influence being thrown our way in the event someone needs a favor with regards to difficult/sensitive possession cases.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Didn't realize it was that high. I'm game.
[x] Reach out for the spark within, let it illuminate your path (-10 XP for this Arc; Gain Sapphire Ritual of Exorcism)
Why?
No we don't, and I will vehemently oppose involving ourselves in Mab-Nemesis conflict until at least E4. And, besides, Ancient Sorcery exorcism is one of those "immortals of the setting will do everything they can to kill you", right up there with Murder is Meat and Crown of Eyes.
Because its one of the actual bargaining chips we can put on the table with her, and one thats in our interests to provide, assuming we know its necessary.Nemesis infiltration of the Winter Court is allowing weakening of the Outer Gates defenses; Mab's second in command has been in stasis for years because of this, and her daughter is Nemesis-infected.
Outsider activity is a Bad Thing for everyone who likes Reality intact enough that there's stuff to claim.
Even though there are people stupid enough to think they can use them without getting burnt; see the Red Court using Outsiders to attack the White Council.
1)We were already in it from Arc 1, when we stabbed a bunch of Outsiders to death with the Agg sword when defending Ebenezer McCoy.
Harry Dresden has been of intense interest to Nemesis since he was a teenager, and Molly is in his orbit. Thomas' girlfriend is either already possessed by Nemesis, or soon will be according to canpn, and he's Molly's financial manager.The plot to murder minor talents across the US, the one with Madrigal Raith and Vittorio Malvora has been in progress for at least six months, and it explicitly has Outsider backing, because Lash told us it did in canon before she died.
Its always been there, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
2)That is not true.
If it was, Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, son of Maggie LeFay and Malcolm Dresden, and Starborn magic user would have been murdered at 16, when he banished his first Walker.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Being able to purge Nemesis corruption is a big selling point for the Ancient Sorcery spell, but I wonder if it might be too valuable to Mab? We could go from an 'interesting curiosity with enough power to be useful as a pawn' to a 'strategic asset vital to the ongoing conflict against the Outsiders'. I
That's not necessarily a good thing.
That's not necessarily a good thing.
[x] Reach out for the spark within, let it illuminate your path (-10 XP for this Arc; Gain Sapphire Ritual of Exorcism)
Having the ability doesn't necessarily mean we have to say anything about it immediately. Especially since Molly doesn't know about nemesis or that any of the high Sidhe are compromised.
Just in case I forget, here's the citation, just after Dresden and his party got mindwhammied by a psychic attack:
However, the precursor serial murders of magical talents across the United States that culminated in the murders of members of Cauldron in canon started roughly a year prior, so around June this year.
And Outsider-possessed Vittorio Malvora and his ally, Madrigal Raith, are walking around in ad around our city at will.
I will reiterate:
The idea that we can ignore Outsider activity is a fantasy. The Outsiders will come themselves, or send their patsies.
If they have Mab distracted by internal troubles, they can focus on others. If they dont, they have to worry about her and her forces, which leaves them less attention for mischief elsewhere.
Its not a coincidence that the Red Court gave the Leanansidhe an Outsider-infected gift before the war started.
For reference, the events of White Night happened in May 2007 in canon, which is about 7 months awayWhite Night chapter 41 said:
However, the precursor serial murders of magical talents across the United States that culminated in the murders of members of Cauldron in canon started roughly a year prior, so around June this year.
And Outsider-possessed Vittorio Malvora and his ally, Madrigal Raith, are walking around in ad around our city at will.
I will reiterate:
The idea that we can ignore Outsider activity is a fantasy. The Outsiders will come themselves, or send their patsies.
If they have Mab distracted by internal troubles, they can focus on others. If they dont, they have to worry about her and her forces, which leaves them less attention for mischief elsewhere.
Its not a coincidence that the Red Court gave the Leanansidhe an Outsider-infected gift before the war started.
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- Location
- washington
I never said to get it I'm just arguing the false premise.