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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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Erebeal said:
I think we go no here for a number of reasons.
  1. Renxiang has already gone with it and we'd need a good reason to say otherwise, which frankly I don't think we have.
  2. Momentum: it ties in with the immediate concerns about negotiating with the Meng that have just been raised
  3. The safety concerns I don't feel are that significant. Ultimately while yes, the Xiangmen facilities are "safer" no-one has really raised this as a major issue. Moreover, it must be noted that we're only third realm, and if we're able to handle the Starlight Labyrinth then investigating any materials under the supervision of the Fourth Realm Astronomer Wu should be relatively safe.
  4. I don't know if the "Meng like this" and "MoI like this" aspects are really balanced here. It feels like this gives more of a bonus for the Meng that also ties directly into the question of negotiations over the use of this facility, while for the MoI it's just a general sense of idk slightly better vibes about us from us playing things slightly safer and more conservatively? Or maybe, since what was actually raised was that the MoI had expressed some interest with the implication that this could help us getting access to the Xiangmen labs, it would involve them doing us a favour. Getting people to do you a small favour is a legitimate way of getting them to like you more but I'm also not sure how much it helps us right now.
  5. Timing: the ultimate thing is that the impact of this on the immediate future is limited since this isn't something we'd be looking at until after the summit. At least with the Meng it's something that we could plausibly bring up when we're talking to them in terms of opportunities for developing the facilities here and bringing us all more prestige. With the MoI though? I don't see any reason why it would help us in the here and now, though obviously managing our relationship with them is also a long term thing that will continue beyond the summit. Like what are we going to say? "oh we're going to be getting some star stuff to investigate in a few months but don't worry we'll be sending it to the Capital because we care about safety!" Seems weird.
So yeah, overall I think the update is very much slanted to making just go with it as the obvious path forward.
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To be frank in terms of balance we keep taking options that will piss of the ministry or at best, only slightly appease them. I went through the last 10 pages or so of story updates and on the project as far as I can see we have only one action that has resulted in ministry approval: our choice to bend the general's proposal, where we rolled the success to make the ministry approve (slightly according to the vote description).

By contrast, we kept their advisor at as much arms length from the project as possible. We voted for shared construction. We voted for the knowledge exchange last vote which we knew would anger them.

I feel keeping throwing the Ministry bones where possible is important. . I would much rather have some built up credit (or at least less defecit) with the Ministry so we can further push things elsewhere. Especially since I expect that we will continue to push back against the Ministry's preferred course of action in future votes. Particularly on the actual outcomes of the summit, where I believe we will need to actually push harder.

Edit: To be clear, we did have some positive interactions with the Imperial Ministries (including the MOI in a limited/arms length way) when we found out Yan Renshu was alive but I don't think it has too much bearing our our project.
 
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Humbaba said:
I feel keeping throwing the Ministry bones where possible is important. . I would much rather have some built up credit (or at least less defecit) with the Ministry so we can further push things elsewhere. Especially since I expect that we will continue to push back against the Ministry's preferred course of action in future votes. Particularly on the actual outcomes of the summit, where I believe we will need to actually push harder.
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I understand that, but I frankly just don't see this as a good or useful bone to throw them. It doesn't feel like something that will really earn us that much cred, and also is unlikely to actually help us in the immediate future. It could be a small boon in our long term relationship but probably wouldn't help us with the actual summit right now.
 
Ultimately I don't think there's any way to actually get the MoI on board with our goals, which makes any concessions past the bare minimum (to prevent them from being disruptive) somewhat pointless.

Figuring out that topping point is Renxiang's job. ;)
 
Tbf we also haven't had the chance to make our best play yet which is agreeing that a limited foreign quarter to keep contacts under control and from mingling too much is good.

and also gives us a monopoly on international diplomacy and trade as well :V
 
Pretty sure a good way to gain a great deal of Ministry approval would be inviting groups to set up Sects within The Wall. The Sect system is an Imperial institution and should insulate the Empire from Southern barbarian influences, not to mention that the Ministy of Integrity seems to have some degree of influence over the Sects themselves.
 
Humbaba said:
To be frank in terms of balance we keep taking options that will piss of the ministry or at best, only slightly appease them. I went through the last 10 pages or so of story updates and on the project as far as I can see we have only one action that has resulted in ministry approval: our choice to bend the general's proposal, where we rolled the success to make the ministry approve (slightly according to the vote description).

By contrast, we kept their advisor at as much arms length from the project as possible. We voted for shared construction. We voted for the knowledge exchange last vote which we knew would anger them.

I feel keeping throwing the Ministry bones where possible is important. . I would much rather have some built up credit (or at least less defecit) with the Ministry so we can further push things elsewhere. Especially since I expect that we will continue to push back against the Ministry's preferred course of action in future votes. Particularly on the actual outcomes of the summit, where I believe we will need to actually push harder.

Edit: To be clear, we did have some positive interactions with the Imperial Ministries (including the MOI in a limited/arms length way) when we found out Yan Renshu was alive but I don't think it has too much bearing our our project.
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This is a really good point and honestly, CRX doesn't seem like she feels that strongly about it.
It doesn't cost us much here to throw MOI a bone. If it seems like LQ is going to throw them under the bus at every turn, they're going to turn into a truly intractable enemy.
While it's true they were never going to be on our friends, we can't give them more reason to view her as the enemy. Then they'll really throw a wrench in the summit.
 
I'm with Erebeal on this. The research won't happen for...at least 2-3 turns? Because the possible Ith-ia hole takes more precedence imo, and completing two different exploration arcs together feels disjointed. And that's before adding the unpredictability of rolls, and how each may be split up over 2-3 turns.

It's not really immediate to the summit, when all of our current actions are for thr summit. The Meng option directly ties into the summit here, and we can pick things up later when we're doing our Weilu things and doing negotiations.

Here, we're throwing the MoI a bone here that...will probably not matter after the summit? Because they're only here to watch the summit and will leave until the next one unless we have one of them stay at our fief. The most probable is Jin Tae visiting from the sect. There's the problem of narrative engagement here.

This is also the first option that makes the Meng CONSERVATIVE faction favour us, instead of just the reformers.

And lastly, oth of them give a bonus. It's just one that gives less of a bonus. Actually, Glorious Oppression Mom is also interested, and sending them to her seat of power will make her make her first antimatter generator faster :p
 
Imugi said:
Pretty sure a good way to gain a great deal of Ministry approval would be inviting groups to set up Sects within The Wall. The Sect system is an Imperial institution and should insulate the Empire from Southern barbarian influences, not to mention that the Ministy of Integrity seems to have some degree of influence over the Sects themselves.
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I dunno how likely that is given the reduction in budget the Throne has be giving Sects in the ES. The whole reason Shenhua was able to find an in to influence things was she made up the funding shortage.
 
Erebeal said:
I think we go no here for a number of reasons.
  1. Renxiang has already gone with it and we'd need a good reason to say otherwise, which frankly I don't think we have.
  2. Momentum: it ties in with the immediate concerns about negotiating with the Meng that have just been raised
  3. The safety concerns I don't feel are that significant. Ultimately while yes, the Xiangmen facilities are "safer" no-one has really raised this as a major issue. Moreover, it must be noted that we're only third realm, and if we're able to handle the Starlight Labyrinth then investigating any materials under the supervision of the Fourth Realm Astronomer Wu should be relatively safe.
  4. I don't know if the "Meng like this" and "MoI like this" aspects are really balanced here. It feels like this gives more of a bonus for the Meng that also ties directly into the question of negotiations over the use of this facility, while for the MoI it's just a general sense of idk slightly better vibes about us from us playing things slightly safer and more conservatively? Or maybe, since what was actually raised was that the MoI had expressed some interest with the implication that this could help us getting access to the Xiangmen labs, it would involve them doing us a favour. Getting people to do you a small favour is a legitimate way of getting them to like you more but I'm also not sure how much it helps us right now.
  5. Timing: the ultimate thing is that the impact of this on the immediate future is limited since this isn't something we'd be looking at until after the summit. At least with the Meng it's something that we could plausibly bring up when we're talking to them in terms of opportunities for developing the facilities here and bringing us all more prestige. With the MoI though? I don't see any reason why it would help us in the here and now, though obviously managing our relationship with them is also a long term thing that will continue beyond the summit. Like what are we going to say? "oh we're going to be getting some star stuff to investigate in a few months but don't worry we'll be sending it to the Capital because we care about safety!" Seems weird.
So yeah, overall I think the update is very much slanted to making just go with it as the obvious path forward.
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Point 5 is also an issue after the summit. Turn around times are important. Scattered focus has been a pacing issue for some time. Post-summit yrs is going to be trying to shift around narrative structures to give more cohesive plotlines.

Significant time delays between discoveries and even starting followup probes or interactions, that also put the materials completely beyond our grasp, isn't ideal.

Yes here comes at the significant cost of ongoing timing and pacing headaches.
 
I feel like there's strong arguments on both sides for who should get the +Rep but "higher turnaround versus better bonuses to rolls" is a clear blowout for the better rolls, especially since this is a system where getting 100+20 gives you Result 120, not Result 100. That being the case...

[ ] Yes. Little enough is known, and the facilities at the capital are superior. She would like to get use out of any treasures sooner rather than later, but she would like to be certain of their safety even more. (Slower Turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, higher rolls for identification and safety. MoI likes this)

...I'm leaning this way.
 
[ ] No. In addition to potentially being a another bone to toss to the Meng, as a high profile project for their facilities here, you would rather receive results in a more reasonable time frame. (Faster turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, Smaller bonus for identification and safety. Reformer/Conservative Meng like this)

I'm all for self sufficiency. We should limit how much we rely on the capital.
 
[X] Yes. Little enough is known, and the facilities at the capital are superior. She would like to get use out of any treasures sooner rather than later, but she would like to be certain of their safety even more. (Slower Turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, higher rolls for identification and safety. MoI likes this)
 
[X] No. In addition to potentially being a another bone to toss to the Meng, as a high profile project for their facilities here, you would rather receive results in a more reasonable time frame. (Faster turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, Smaller bonus for identification and safety. Reformer/Conservative Meng like this)
 
This is simply the logical option set up by the update and what fits best into our plans and the story here.

"Yes" is loaded with bunch of keywords that play on voter concerns, but the vote itself isn't really a good way to address those issues.

[x] No. In addition to potentially being a another bone to toss to the Meng, as a high profile project for their facilities here, you would rather receive results in a more reasonable time frame. (Faster turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, Smaller bonus for identification and safety. Reformer/Conservative Meng like this)
 
[X] No. In addition to potentially being a another bone to toss to the Meng, as a high profile project for their facilities here, you would rather receive results in a more reasonable time frame. (Faster turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, Smaller bonus for identification and safety. Reformer/Conservative Meng like this)
 
[X] Yes. Little enough is known, and the facilities at the capital are superior. She would like to get use out of any treasures sooner rather than later, but she would like to be certain of their safety even more. (Slower Turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, higher rolls for identification and safety. MoI likes this)
 
[X] Yes. Little enough is known, and the facilities at the capital are superior. She would like to get use out of any treasures sooner rather than later, but she would like to be certain of their safety even more. (Slower Turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, higher rolls for identification and safety. MoI likes this)

Might as well get started on appeasing the secret police. Also, researching Things That Man Was Not Meant To Know has a tendency to blow up spectacularly, and I'd rather it happens in secure vault far away.
 
[X] Yes. Little enough is known, and the facilities at the capital are superior. She would like to get use out of any treasures sooner rather than later, but she would like to be certain of their safety even more. (Slower Turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, higher rolls for identification and safety. MoI likes this)

The ministry of integrity is cool and we should be better friends with orthodox imperial factions.
 
[X] No. In addition to potentially being a another bone to toss to the Meng, as a high profile project for their facilities here, you would rather receive results in a more reasonable time frame. (Faster turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, Smaller bonus for identification and safety. Reformer/Conservative Meng like this)
 
[X] No. In addition to potentially being a another bone to toss to the Meng, as a high profile project for their facilities here, you would rather receive results in a more reasonable time frame. (Faster turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, Smaller bonus for identification and safety. Reformer/Conservative Meng like this)
 
[x] No. In addition to potentially being a another bone to toss to the Meng, as a high profile project for their facilities here, you would rather receive results in a more reasonable time frame. (Faster turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, Smaller bonus for identification and safety. Reformer/Conservative Meng like this)

Oh well. Good arguments.
 
[X] No. In addition to potentially being a another bone to toss to the Meng, as a high profile project for their facilities here, you would rather receive results in a more reasonable time frame. (Faster turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, Smaller bonus for identification and safety. Reformer/Conservative Meng like this)
 
[X] No. In addition to potentially being a another bone to toss to the Meng, as a high profile project for their facilities here, you would rather receive results in a more reasonable time frame. (Faster turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, Smaller bonus for identification and safety. Reformer/Conservative Meng like this)
 
There just isn't really any reason to think that Yes would meaningfully help us with the MoI.

Firstly, whatever benefit we get from it won't materialise until far after the summit, so it doesn't help the concerns right now, has a lot of time to be disrupted by other things we do, and will probably be forgotten about by the time we actually get to it due to how much irl time will pass. We have no way of leveraging it now.

Secondly, it's just such a marginal effect. "The MoI has an ideological liking for imperial institutions getting cred over the nobility" and so they'd like this a little more is hardly going to be a big impact. It's not like we're giving them anything significant here. It has no relationship to any concerns about our judgement over foreign influence. Do you really think that if we've done anything they actually dislike that us doing this would shift their opinions meaningfully at all?
 
[X] Yes. Little enough is known, and the facilities at the capital are superior. She would like to get use out of any treasures sooner rather than later, but she would like to be certain of their safety even more. (Slower Turnaround on Labyrinth Loot, higher rolls for identification and safety. MoI likes this)
 
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