Thats so stupid tho, there literally millions of adult humans trained for war that you can just hire for money, there is literally no need to send any children there. Ita fucking stupidity. Mab dies for it.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Ya'll know you're not going to convince each other that you're right and they're wrong, right? This isn't the first time in the quest this debate has happened, it's not even the third, IIRC. You can cite whatever canon information you want, make whatever arguments you want, appeal to logic, argue that it's morally reprehensible, etc, etc, etc. I've yet to see anyone admit their opinion has changed on the subject.
At what point do you just call it a day and stop talking past one another? Hopefully it will happen before the debates go from spirited to contentious and salty.
Or ya'll can just carry on. I doubt I'm the only one here who has just started scrolling past those posts.
At what point do you just call it a day and stop talking past one another? Hopefully it will happen before the debates go from spirited to contentious and salty.
Or ya'll can just carry on. I doubt I'm the only one here who has just started scrolling past those posts.
- Location
- Germany
It's a mix of things.
There's always a majority of players not really involved in any debate and I don't want to leave points that some people make unadressed in hope of having even the least bit influence on those.
And on the other hand these debates are kinda relevant for our behaviour towards Mab in the near future.
This is not just theory, we actually have to interact with the powers in question.
And voter's belief of how dangerous/important/powerful or even evil Mab is will influence the actions we take this very month.
Hypothetical.
As for the debates, it is important to note that this is actually a very good way for both sides to refine their own ideas, it is a natural human behavior that exists for a reason, just like emotions and even biases, they can break down due to the fact the environment changed too fast recently, but they still are anchored in actually having benefits.
Here's a video on the subject.
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ELDER ESSENCE MINIMUMS Charms running from Essence 1 to 5 are detailed on page 184 of Exalted. Charms having Essence minimums from 1 to 5 encompass the complete array of effects for which the Solars were given purpose. Having conquered chaos and ascended to rulership of Creation, Solars expand to represent a purpose for which there was no design. Charms beyond the Essence minimum of 5 suggest a force for which there is no peer, and a measure for which there is no call. In short, these effects equip the Solars with a new array of effects of such magnitude and scope that there could be no known reason. Beyond this point, Solars transcend humanity, expand their notice beyond the core of existence, bargain with incomprehensible forces, and build new worlds—if only to have more to conquer. Charms with an Essence minimum of 6 leave behind worldly miracles—the Exalt now engages in the work of gods. Her power redefines her standing among the Exalted, and it is on the back of these wonders that an Age may be built. Charms with an Essence minimum of 7 depict the authorial primacy of one who knows no value she cannot change and no limit she cannot reach. These miracles leave marks on the world that last for untold generations, each application a legend unto itself. The holy might contained by these Charms evoke such awe and terror that the Celestial Exalted look upon them with shocked remove. Charms with an Essence minimum of 8 touch the very foundation of the universe. The Solar lays hands upon the forces of the very cosmos, and they recognize in her Essence a peer. Charms with an Essence minimum of 9 affect all the heavenly glory of the sun unbound. Solar power expands almost beyond the capacity of the world to contain it. What is the possible purpose of such great and terrible power? Charms with an Essence minimum of 10 denote powers beyond those which forged the universe. Not even the Primordials fully understand Essence 10; at this level of effect, the intellects which defined existence find themselves in the position of discovery. What challenges even the Primordials, a Solar may come naturally to grasp and engender: power beyond all reason.
I doubt it. Humanity has come a long way, but every bit of progress can be stripped away with the equivalent of a cantrip by anything capable of magic.
There's also the matter of how physical law doesn't apply the same way in the nevernever. The deeper you get the less likely it is for technology to work. The outer gates aren't a friendly place for this sort of thing.
The best evidence of that would be the fact that no one uses modern weaponry there. Senior council members who use guns on earth don't bother carrying them at the gate, and the fey aren't setting up machine gun nests.
Winter does make mistakes, but they aren't so stupid that they'd fail to pick up on potential tools. They certainly aren't shy about stealing other ideas from mortals.
A broken masquerade, properly handled, would be good for making mortals more capable of defending themselves but it isn't a cure for all ills.
For this specific problem Molly's hell is a better solution. Our own demon planet should be more than enough to let us slip into their role and then displace them politically.
That way we can force reforms without causing a supernatural world war or getting earth tentacled to death.
Which we should at least start before the masquerade falls if we can manage it, because trying it afterwards is going to be significantly more complicated due to the mortal world melting down.
It's unlikely that Winter is actually sending the kids they take into battle after two weeks of boot camp. Because that's just stupid; they've been fighting for ages and expect to be fighting for ages more, training their troops until they're at their maximum potential is a basic planning thing.
Winter is cruel, callous, and sadistic. They're at best an organization that needs serious reforms* but anything outright obviously stupid is suspect to me.
Unlike a human autocracy, Winter's highest focus is directly on their stated goals. Mab values literally everything below her duty because she isn't capable of doing anything else.
On the hiring millions of adults thing; that's only been an option post Industrial Revolution, and money probably isn't going to cut it.
I'm pretty sure that once you go past the gates you aren't allowed to go home again unless you're a mantle bearer with special resistance to Outsider memetic hazards.
This isn't meant as a defense of what they're doing, just as a clarification on what exactly they should be accused of. Winter sending sixteen year olds out to stab outsiders with swords after a quick hit of magic and two weeks of training is a waste of everyone's time independent of any moral judgement.
Taking them to brainwash for four years or so before sending them to kill their enemies at least makes sense even if it's still horrible because making and using indoctrinated slave-soldiers is self evidently awful.
* In the sense that some of their leadership needs killed so they can reform into better people through the next mantle bearer. See redcaps and Meave.
Its not, fae act stupid and petty all the time. Look at literally anything in the books, its not pragmatic poltical animals. It's cruel vindictive fucks.
Since they are still kidnapping children, when we know its really easy to indoctrinate adults just as easily, when there are millions of people that come pre trained is stupid.
Ergo winter is a continued threat to existence due to their incompetence at holding the gate. They die for that as well.
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Cruel vindictive fucks when they're playing politics or actively trying to mess with something. Winter fey are real bastards when you're fighting them, but that isn't representative of their entire civilization.
Remember that when the gods fell they fey kept the gates. If they were so blatantly wasteful as this whole thing is the Outsiders would have skullfucked reality by now.
Arc 6 Post 28: Faces of Hell
Faces of Hell
3nd of October 2006 A.D.
There are practical reasons to look for J, you remind yourself, he is the one who is meant to claim your power once you are dead and if there is anything you know about that power is that it's not easily herded to the whims of others. But first your own people...
***
Old train tracks crisscrossing each other though the withered grass like serpents, trash piled beside gratify painted walls, the gash of gang signs, the fades lines of abstract art that might in some other world have graced the immaculate walls of a museum, guarded with glass and artifice. No birds roost here and ships by make their way up the river uncaring, or, of late, with urgency they do not understand. Pipes open over the churning waters, eyes into blackness peering. There, behind the steel girders a hatch, like the mouth into the same darkness opening, though the sun is looking in through the broken window just above....
Twenty feet down on a ladder missing every third step, it looks like a bomb shelter, though only the shape of the room and the stains on the wall remain to show where the furnishings had once been, a tunnel leading east, black as pitch but to your eyes unveiled by the very presence of the akuma who move through it, hands twitching, eyes wide in terror... Why?
As you fly on, a presence unknown, unknowable, you see other other shafts, piles of refuse below them, some reeking of rot. Faces stare with dead eyes back up at the sky. None of them familiar, none of them mine. You hate yourself for the surge of relief you feel. A pair of glasses broken lies next to the blood-caked head of an elderly woman... they do not glitter
Light has no dominion here, you realize, though you cannot make sense of the spell as the wind of your own rage pushes you on not down the tunnel but though a pipe leading on to the east. It's just large enough for an adult to crawl through, though the bloodstains on every ridge tell the tale of how painful it must have been to to squeeze through. On the other side chained to the wall of an old cistern you recognize the faces of the original Jade Dogs, a filthy as they had been when you had first met, each one chained to the wall... all looking up to another pipe in the far wall, though what might lay behind if you do not know for what is not the question you asked.
You might speak, offer comfort, but you have no voice, only eyes that see... too much. On through stone like it was air to one of the metal buildings that had passed though the hand of time best, the roof is still mostly blue, not rusted solid, the door is still intact, still locked. At the back on a sleeping spot of rags and blankets is Debora holding her baby as far away from the hollow eyed man, playing with the gun in his hand, pointing it now at her, now at at himself. Bakemono, you recognize him, and of that pittiful kindred also you recognize the girl giggling to herself in the corner.
Across the tracks there is another building, mostly intact and filled with far more furnishing beside, pots, pans an electric stove tossed in the corner, a hose leading out the window and in the air the lingering acrid smell of something foul to more than mortal senses, a place of ruin and ruin indeed it was still.
"Don't know... don't know... don't know where she's at..."
The bastards had nailed the vampires to the back wall by their left hand right grasping spasmodically at empty air as they beg for release even in death. But there is no mercy to be found in the dead hearts of their captors. Instead an akuma, one of three on guard, drags Abel by a collar closer closer to them. A look of mingled longing and disgust flashes upon the faces of the vampires, the demon driving them to the edge of frenzy. A tirade of curses from Dean mixes with Theodora's weeping and the crude laughter of one of the other guards s he kicks an unconcious Tuzi, in cat form, aside to watch the show that had been clearly been going on for hours.
***
"Molly, as you OK?" Your dad asks as the vision passes. That voice, the one he used when you would stand in the door of your parents bedroom not wanting to wake them up but also not wanting to go back to your bed and the nightmares sure to be waiting there, hits you like a hammer in the chest. Dad can't make these nightmares go away.
"Why? What do I look like?" you ask, blood rushing though your ears.
"Angry," dad replies carefully. "Like you've seen..."
"Angry is good," you cut him off. Once you are done explaining what you had seen and marking the places on the map no one has another word to say about how you might be feeling.
So with a sigh you set Clippy down and set your mind to seek out J, steeling yourself against some fresh horror. A fool and a liar he may be but he does not deserve...
Slice the skin of the world and lo you shall see him.
"He's in the Nevernever, in the open," you explain as the flash passes.
Lost 2 Essence -> Now at 6/12 (Questions)
Gained 2 Essence -> Now at 8/12 (Discovered the ward)
State of the Battlefield
Metaphysical Conditions
- The entirety of the battlefield counts as a Place of Desolation
- All enclosed or underground Buildings within Southworks warded against the sun, to take down the protection one of the walls or the entirety of the roof would have to be removed
Prisoners:
- Ghouls chained to the wall of an underground cistern which can be reached by going down a ladder, though a two hundred feet long tunnel and finally crawling through a thirty feet length of pipe, roughly twenty feet down from the surface to tunnel
- Deborah and her baby being kept at the back of one of the smaller buildings under Bakemono guard
- Dean, Theodora, Abel, Tuzi and the two vampires being tortured by Akuma in the largest remaining production building (and former meth lab)
How do you want to proceed?
[] Write in
OOC: I originally wanted to find maps of the place and work with those, but it turns out maps of specifically this industrial area of Chicago in the early 90s (when South Works shut down) are very hard to find and the larger scale maps are not useful, so I took some artistic liberties with the place
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- Location
- Germany
We did not spot our actual target.
I would prefer not to die in an ambush from the greater Akuma, that we know is stealthy as hell.
I would prefer not to die in an ambush from the greater Akuma, that we know is stealthy as hell.
- Location
- Terror Australis
Some initial thoughts:
Well Deborah can probably be handled without heavyweights as basic bakemono aren't that dangerous, that is just normal hostage rescue.
Both the Ghouls and torture group will need muscle to take down the Vampires fast.
May need to use TTC to access the Ghouls as the choke point with the pipe is a major issue.
J is probably a softer target, but the Will of Kakuri may be hanging out with him as Wan Kuei don't have to worry about sunlight in the spirit world.
The Will of Kakuri could show up anywhere so Lydia, Molly or Gard should be with a given group in Southworks to be able to stall it in melee.
Maybe use TTC to Reach the Ghouls, have Harry and Gard take the torture barn and Lydia rescue Deborah, then regroup to evac hostages and grab J. While killing everything encountered of course.
Strongly suspect the Greater Akuma might be in the nevernever, if it has yin prana it could be dematerialised and pop out anywhere it wanted to ambush us.
Well Deborah can probably be handled without heavyweights as basic bakemono aren't that dangerous, that is just normal hostage rescue.
Both the Ghouls and torture group will need muscle to take down the Vampires fast.
May need to use TTC to access the Ghouls as the choke point with the pipe is a major issue.
J is probably a softer target, but the Will of Kakuri may be hanging out with him as Wan Kuei don't have to worry about sunlight in the spirit world.
The Will of Kakuri could show up anywhere so Lydia, Molly or Gard should be with a given group in Southworks to be able to stall it in melee.
Maybe use TTC to Reach the Ghouls, have Harry and Gard take the torture barn and Lydia rescue Deborah, then regroup to evac hostages and grab J. While killing everything encountered of course.
Strongly suspect the Greater Akuma might be in the nevernever, if it has yin prana it could be dematerialised and pop out anywhere it wanted to ambush us.
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Easier to forgive people when you don't see them being evil isn't it? But this is what Molly asked for, knowledge.
- Location
- washington
Outsiders are a memetic threat you can't just trust adults with it. Please stop assuming mab is stupid or needlessly cruel. It's so fucking annoying mab can't be needlessly cruel as word of Jim she simply does not have the needed parts for the most part.
Mab getting harry married after Murphys death that is political. Mab torturing slade that's a debt. Mab simply can't. If you're looking for emotional outbursts Titania can do that as she's supposed to represent stuff like passion. Other fae very much can have these things though. Also there are countless corpses at the gate literally countless and military training doesn't help when guns almost definitely don't work at the outer gates
Well then, those guys made at least one mistake, let's hope they did more.
Deborah and her baby are thankfully the ones that needs the least forces and are the least guarded, though I fear the Will knows that and hang out close to her to take her hostage if needed.
Ghouls... I want to know whatever they're looking at. It may be nothing it may be a problem, don't know,. They're also the most difficult to reach. No visible guards.
Torture scene is easier to reach than ghouls, but better guarded than Deborah, probably priority target due to limited time.
Frankly, J I don't care ab out right now, it's good having an idea where he is, but going to the nevernever is too much investment right now given the enemy has hostages.
Mab is fully capable of being (and perhaps even obligated to be) needlessly cruel when she wants to be. She just isn't impulsive about it like Titania may be.
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- Location
- Terror Australis
Edit: Missed a Valkyrie we have a Runecaster + Gard
Very Crude Plan
Current forces:
Molly, Harry, Gard, Lydia, Murphy, Michael, Valkyrie Runecaster
3 squads of 5 Einherjar Riflemen
1 Einherjar Heavy Weapon Squad (machine gun and mortar)
Tentative deployment
Lydia + Rifle#1 - rescue Deborah
Molly + Gard - rescue Jade Dogs (w/TTC) or Will of Kakuri response force
Harry + Michael + Murphy + Rifle#2 + Rifle#3 - torture barn
HWS - overwatch/fire support
Logic is to hit each group with enough force to outright kill the foes present fast and then reconolidate to fight the Greater Akuma wherever it shows up.
Lydia and soldiers can take down the bakemono without issue.
The Jade dogs don't seem to have any guards with them (unless the Will is hiding down there) so reaching them slightly slower by cutting though the ground is probably acceptable, going though the chokepoint is definitely a bad idea. Given it is close tunnel fighting either way guns aren't going to help much so melee combatants.
Molly and Michael are probably the only individuals with a decent shot at killing the Will of Kakuri and Molly at least is fast enough to reach anywhere quickly.
Harry and friends should be able to overwhelm by raw firepower with Michael running interference. Straight shock and awe tactics here.
The HW squad is best used to destroy any akuma that poke their heads out and move around the area as they have long range serious firepower.
Also Molly should go Shintai before combat starts as we will certainly be fighting the greater akuma here. While this will likely alert the will, we aren't going to successfully ambush it anyway.
Note I am assuming since Odin isn't stupid that the Einherjar have incendiary ammo and so shooting vampires actually works.
Very Crude Plan
Current forces:
Molly, Harry, Gard, Lydia, Murphy, Michael, Valkyrie Runecaster
3 squads of 5 Einherjar Riflemen
1 Einherjar Heavy Weapon Squad (machine gun and mortar)
Tentative deployment
Lydia + Rifle#1 - rescue Deborah
Molly + Gard - rescue Jade Dogs (w/TTC) or Will of Kakuri response force
Harry + Michael + Murphy + Rifle#2 + Rifle#3 - torture barn
HWS - overwatch/fire support
Logic is to hit each group with enough force to outright kill the foes present fast and then reconolidate to fight the Greater Akuma wherever it shows up.
Lydia and soldiers can take down the bakemono without issue.
The Jade dogs don't seem to have any guards with them (unless the Will is hiding down there) so reaching them slightly slower by cutting though the ground is probably acceptable, going though the chokepoint is definitely a bad idea. Given it is close tunnel fighting either way guns aren't going to help much so melee combatants.
Molly and Michael are probably the only individuals with a decent shot at killing the Will of Kakuri and Molly at least is fast enough to reach anywhere quickly.
Harry and friends should be able to overwhelm by raw firepower with Michael running interference. Straight shock and awe tactics here.
The HW squad is best used to destroy any akuma that poke their heads out and move around the area as they have long range serious firepower.
Also Molly should go Shintai before combat starts as we will certainly be fighting the greater akuma here. While this will likely alert the will, we aren't going to successfully ambush it anyway.
Note I am assuming since Odin isn't stupid that the Einherjar have incendiary ammo and so shooting vampires actually works.
We see Mab be pointlessly cruel constantly with her interactions with Harry in the books, she seems to love petty cruelty and dominance games. Jim can say whatever he wants but Mab absolutely behaves like a domineering sadistic tyrant, either she is literally incapable of not play acting or she really is just a cruel tyrant.
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- Location
- washington
Why are people arguing against word of jim?
Because we're not.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Not to mention any number of esoteric effects which would utterly shit on any conventional military forces.
As stated earlier, mind control, but also petrification, instant-death sorts of effects, soul-stealing effects, temporal and/or spatial warping, the list could go on.
- Location
- washington
I mean you are word of Jim she can't be? Don't get me wrong plenty of what she does is fairly objectively evil there isn't any real malice in it though.
Wrong:
Would someone in Mab's weight class be capable of taking a White Court demon out of a vampire?
Oh, absolutely. She could rip that thing right out of Thomas. Not that there would be much of Thomas left after she was done. Mab's not particularly gentle that way. It's possible that there might be some way to get out of it, maybe, but what fun would that be?
Oh, absolutely. She could rip that thing right out of Thomas. Not that there would be much of Thomas left after she was done. Mab's not particularly gentle that way. It's possible that there might be some way to get out of it, maybe, but what fun would that be?
An example of where Mab would be deliberately, needlessly cruel simply because it would be fun.
Mab is an evil, malicious creature. She's just currently a necessary evil because she's managed to get herself into a position where she's too big to fail.
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