Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
- Location
- Germany
I suspect a Yozi or even a group of 3rd Circles could just reshape reality to accept theit full power.
Uplifting the world a little bit to bear them seems like an infinitly lesser task compared to carving reality and permanence out of the Chaos in the first place.
The Primordials are not just any gods or demons, they are a set of definitions and physics that is fully capable of overriding weaker reality around them.
COMMENTARY
1)Turns out that dragging a member of law enforcement around has Consequences.
People who are accustomed to being in charge have issues when the boot is on the other foot. Especially when the field commander is a 17-year old girl in tattoos, piercings and ripped jeans.I cant think of any other reason why she would choose to have this conversation here and now, on the street in front of the hotel where the akuma are staying.
I wonder if this is previewing problems for when we murder the Minister of Hell in the face.
Murphy has seen Molly fight, and glow while doing so, but she hasnt seen Molly in shintai, has she?
2)Murphy literally saw Arctis Tor and the scale of the aftermath of a battle there just four months ago.
She got a glimpse of the size of the returning armies of Winter. She got mindfucked by Papa Raith. I would have thought that she would have accumulated enough experience to know better about poking the Night People.
Apparently not, if she's proposing escalating a situation where there's 8-9 lesser akuma with unknown preparations in a hotel that may have in excess of 60 civilians in current residence.
3)And I do resent the implication that we did this to show off.
Those are very much fighting words, which explains why Dresden is wheedling.
This is very much reminding me of Book 1-3 Murphy, and I dont like it.
I mean, I like you Karrin, but you're pushing it.
4)Sunrise on 3 October is 7.35AM. We need to get a move on.
5)Aside from whatever Murphy might or might not choose to say to the Library people, the fact is that as things stand, she does not have data security. There's nothing preventing her getting mindfucked and interrogated by Blampire, Whampire, Rampire, fey, demigod or demon. Nothing besides the implied threat of retaliation by Dresden, and by extension Molly.
We literally just had Tuzi interrogated by akuma about what we said, and that incident has a direct line leading to Adam's death just two hours ago or so.
That is very fresh in Molly's memory when Murphy is demanding full disclosure.
Molly flubs her Empathy roll. Badly. Ugh.
And then Murphy manages to roll 10 successes on a 6 dice Willpower roll.
I would be impressed if it wasnt so inconvenient.
White blond women are apparently Molly's social kryptonite.
- Location
- Germany
After those she kinda learned that she can't do that much about the supernatural world.
Now, with th backing of the Library, she has gotten some confidence back and thinks she can play with the big boys.
She can't, even if the Library had far deeper reserves of skill and power than we've seen so far, but it's hard to explain that to someone with a limited perspective.
When Murphy gets really stubborn (Like say rolling 10 successes on 8 dice for willpower) she tends to default to 'book 1-3 Murphy'. Also the fact that she now has some magic support behind her maker her more assertive. Last but not least these are just eight akuma, not the armies of winter, the people with you outnumber them.
[X] Refuse to explain (Will damage your relationship with Murphy)
Yeah no not until we have taken over.
Yeah no not until we have taken over.
[X] Plan Kept in the Dark and Fed on Bullshit
-[X] Explain some of the reasoning involved in why you want to keep this secret.
-[X] [Stunt] Molly takes a breath and looks Murphy in the eyes, her full attention on her and the seriousness of the issue.
—[X] "I'm not doing this to show off, or playing fast and loose with the law or basic decency for my own convenience" she says in a voice full of quiet confidence. "I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with this stuff from your end, when so much of the supernatural world looks down on mortals and treats them like mushrooms."
—[X] With something almost like a sharp grin, she continues "I've been in the thick of it for essentially no time at all and already I'm impressed by the way you haven't shot someone for giving one 'beyond mortal ken' too many"
—[X] "So I realize how big a request it is when I ask you to trust me here. No plan survives contact with the enemy, and the reason I want to avoid the details isn't because I don't trust you or respect your position. It's because something big just changed and just speaking about it could ruin things."
—[X] Swallowing the impulse to conceal weakness, Molly plows forward "I'm going to ask that you let this go, for now, because I don't know precisely who or how many people it will be the difference between life and worse than death for yet. Just that it's more than one and I haven't had time to figure out where all the wrong ears are or how loud of a whisper would set them off"
A little wordy, but I think this hits the salient points. Murphy's issue is in part that mortals are treated like ignorant children. People involved in the supernatural reflexively keep secrets and conceal when they are ignorant of things. Which often gives the impression that they're running a con they won't share because it'd mess with their profit margin.
Something that isn't helped by the fact that that's actually what's happening a lot of the time.
Demonstrating that we actually sympathize and respect her position, and the reason we're hiding is because we don't and can't know what's safe yet for ourselves or others could go a long way to defusing the resentment.
Once we do have a way to do it safely we should share, but I want more than the wards for that. She needs something to help protect against supernatural assault and we need a better idea of what sort of divinations are likely to get pointed in her direction.
Yeah.
Even worse, Molly is well aware of the White Court infiltration of the US government via those papers she got from Agent Greene's computers, which means she has good reason to suspect that the Whampires are probably not the first, or the only faction to have tried something like that.
Even if Murphy is secure and sends information up the chain, there's literally no way Molly can vouch for or vet everyone she may be reporting to.
Thought as much.
Maybe we should send her cyberdevil-captured video footage of Eiko in Demon Shintai and point out there's another 9 people there that could do lesser versions of the same thing. And another 9 plus potential reinforcments in South Works.
She really needs to meet a Minister of Hell to recalibrate her threat scale drastically.
I suspect she hasnt really thought through some of the other implications of the Library being so circumspect about this stuff either.
All in all, I'd rather antagonise her than risk getting people killed.
Relationships can be repaired. Dead people cant.
- Location
- Terror Australis
I really don't think we should torpedo our relationship with Murphy over a minor risk of damage to a complete monster. Murphy is frankly far more important than Eiko.
The Masquerade and attendant customs of keeping people in the dark about everything exist primarily to shield predators and abusers from consequences for their behaviour. I really don't think it is a good idea to follow those customs.
Murphy is an intelligent responsible adult she should have the right to make informed decisions about things.
The Masquerade and attendant customs of keeping people in the dark about everything exist primarily to shield predators and abusers from consequences for their behaviour. I really don't think it is a good idea to follow those customs.
Murphy is an intelligent responsible adult she should have the right to make informed decisions about things.
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- Location
- Germany
If there's even a small chance of this working then much more than Eiko can be on the line.
Flipping a Yama King would improve the lives and afterlifes of many thousands, possibly millions of people.
As for Murphy, if she needs convincing we could just tell her her darkest secret right now, no preptime. That's what her stubborness is worth against someone with the right power.
- Location
- Terror Australis
There isn't any actual plan though. This is just letting Eiko go and hoping maybe she will do something positive, eventually maybe. Not telling Murphy has an immediate actual cost, as opposed to telling her which maybe has a possible cost.
Actively sabotaging our relationship with Murphy just because of a minor risk to Eiko is a bad idea.
Actively sabotaging our relationship with Murphy just because of a minor risk to Eiko is a bad idea.
That's a fair enough position, but it wouldn't be minor harm to Eiko if this got out.
Emma-O own her soul and can compel her to do whatever he wants, to accept without resistance anything he does to her body or soul.
a plot to manipulate and reshape him from an Akuma is the sort of thing he'd use that access to invent and practice with entirely new forms of torture and debasement just for her, then he'd stop screwing around and get mean about it.
Even discounting the good that success might bring that's a hell of thing to call down on someone.
I'm reluctant to do that unless we really need* to, even if the target is an enemy. If we were going to screw her that hard I'd prefer to just erase her soul instead.
* And I really mean need here. I'm not sure what it'd look like, but any legitimate reason to do this would have to be functionally unavoidable and involve some truly horrific alternatives.
Let me reframe this for you: We are playing for regime change in a major Hell.
Millions of Po souls in torture for thousands of years. Hundreds or thousands of people per year impacted in the material world by Kakuri's schemes. It doesnt matter what Eiko has previously done, just like it doesnt matter what a cartel hitman has previously done if he's willing to flip and cooperate.
Those are the stakes.
Relationships have been damaged and recovered. In this very setting, Murphy canonically beat Dresden up illegally before having him arrested and thrown in jail in the book Fool Moon on trumped up murder charges. She's a close friend of his now, and helped him murder a bunch of Black Court vampires and their human thralls about two years ago.
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- Location
- Terror Australis
Except we aren't actually playing for those stakes. There is no plan, no scheme, no organisation, no actual idea how anything could be achieved. The potential rewards are great yes, but the chance of actually managing anything are so low that they don't actually outweigh the very real costs of not risking "The Plan".
You seem to think Eiko is actually likely to achieve anything and what we know about both her past and Emma-O indicates that it is incredibly unlikely to matter at all.
Preserving a lottery ticket from some risk is not worth damaging relationships.
You seem to think Eiko is actually likely to achieve anything and what we know about both her past and Emma-O indicates that it is incredibly unlikely to matter at all.
Preserving a lottery ticket from some risk is not worth damaging relationships.
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- Location
- Germany
We don't even have much of a relationship with Murphy, we barely know her.
And if she continues trying to bring her policework or the Library into our personal matters I don't imagine we'll ever build a good relationship.
Ultimatly Murphy hasn't been an important character so far and I'm very okay with not being friends with her.
You're not wrong, and I certainly have no intention of voting to cooperate with what Eiko actually asked to do, but this does give us a line to attempt our own plan going forward.
To me this seems so long term that it wouldn't necessarily even be an immediate priority, just something we sink actions into slowly as we grow our resource base until we get strong enough to move on something.
Eiko is still an important asset in that, since she represents ongoing inside access for as long as she can stay hidden.
That aside, my other post still applies.
I think that if we were going to be this loose with Eiko's half baked plot right out of the gate we should have double tapped with a spirit killer to make sure she wouldn't be around to suffer the consequences.
It's "only" one person, and she is a monster, but it still seems suspect to me to bring that reprisal down on her to avoid social issues with a new friend of ours. Especially when we can thread the needle other ways.
Killing her directly, or even setting her up to be killed by someone else, is one thing. What Emma-O would almost certainly do is something entirely different.
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- Location
- Terror Australis
To be fair I am not actually super invested in Murphy, but treating Eiko as an innocent who needs dedicated protection just because she might someday decide to maybe stop being a complete monster is a rather bad idea.
Also this is a really minor risk to be taking. Far less of a risk than all the nasty stuff Eiko is going to be doing in service to Emma-O really.
Also this is a really minor risk to be taking. Far less of a risk than all the nasty stuff Eiko is going to be doing in service to Emma-O really.
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From my perspective it's less that she's an innocent in need of protection than the general idea that even the damned don't deserve literally anything you do to them.
They used to hang horse thieves and cut the hands off of pickpockets. Committing a crime doesn't mean it's just to do whatever you like to them.
Eiko is substantially worse than that, but so is what we're talking about.
Maybe we will end up damning her to mega-hell, but if we do it should be for a more compelling reason or a less avoidable mistake.
Point of order:
The Masquerade, such as it is, exists to protect Humanity as much as the supernaturals. You just have to take a look at the multiple panics of the last couple decades, from McCarthy in the 1950s, to Satanism in the 1980s to gay people in the 1990s to trans people now, to figure out how much damage humanity would do to itself.
Murphy is a CPD police lieutenant; she doesnt get to make decisions of theological and geopolitical import.
Im fine letting her make decisions of personal risk; not so much with decisions impacting potentially hundreds of thousands, or millions, of other people .
Yes we are.
We literally just made contact ten minutes ago. We already have an information conduit.
Expecting there to be anything more complicated at this time is, I submit, an unreasonable expectation.
Even if Eiko had come forward with all that, plan + scheme + organization, we would spend the next six months going over it with a fine tooth comb just out of general suspicion.
Having to work it up from base principles suits us.
EDIT
Also, what Artemis said. Murphy helped save our life at Arctis Tor, but she is ultimately Harry's friend, not ours. She's part of his supporting cast, not ours. Having a good working relationship is something we want, but its not essential.
Ditto friendship.
The Better Chicago Alliance didnt have to like or trust Marcone or Lara Raith to depend on them after Changes.
She doesnt have to be an innocent for us not to be cavalier about her soul.
Adam certainly wasnt, and we're going to make an example of the greater akuma for his death.
And you'll notice that we've never really asked what Lockjaw and Bones had to do when they were serving the Red Court in Chicago.
- Location
- Terror Australis
While I understand your point, she is almost certainly damned to mega-hell anyway. Unless we permadeath her or we win the lottery and Emma-O is redeemed (or killed). Her soul is the property of Emma-O, when she eventually fails him significantly or dies she will be damned to kakuri and Emma-O attentions regardless.
Eiko is a fool that is chasing a pipe dream. Emma-O has had chances for redemption better then anything Eiko could ever even conceive of, nothing Eiko does will ever matter. That being said her thinking of Molly as potential contact that can help her, will make killing Emma-O easier when the time comes to start dealing with the Yama Kings.
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- Location
- Germany
Yea, her plan would propably need someon wiling and capable of doing the impossible to have a decent chance of success.
Too bad nothing like that exists on this world, there are no Exalts around and there's no overgod-style deity highly invested in free will and redemption.
I guess she's just doomed.
- Location
- washington
Though being honest I don't see it happen after all dp gave a fucking white court vampire something like a 7 dot ability it wasn't even the head of their respective house. So there is that.Once we do get that charm (and somehow a nuke), there's nothing stopping Molly from strolling into the Winter Court and making Mab swear a laundry list of concessions. What's Mab gonna do, not swear and get a first-hand taste of a human SUN? Once you have enough power, you don't have problems with your enemies. You have dead enemies and people who try not to be a problem for you.
Much like how Mab apparently set up the Accords 20-30 years ago on account of being the biggest cat on the block, once Molly hits a certain level she can set up her own Accords (without blackjack or hookers) and everybody's gonna wanna be signing on to those, because what Mab's capable of with the full Winter Court backing her is not remotely comparable to what Molly will be capable of, in a cave with a box of scraps