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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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DragonParadox said:
A mortal threat in that they might be able to inflict some lethal wounds before being turned into red mist, also the alternative is to let Joe the mortal dodge just as well against a vampire with Celerity 4 as against another human and that is much, much more problematic from a mechanical standpoint in WoD and in Dresdenverse alike since it makes super-speed far less useful against mortals, of which there are a lot more of them Exalts.

It should also be noted that a Circle of Exalts is a lot more powerful than the sum of its parts, it's almost midnight for me and I do not have time to write up an example so the best I can do is point you guys to this channel of people including the creator of the supplement playing it (He's in City of the Bull God). They use the multiple action rules with each Dodge or Parry counting as its own action.

Anyway given the very late hour over here I'll talk more about this in the morning.

Good night guys.
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Although those guys say that if you are forced to parry before your turn comes up in the initiate then that's your action and are on the back foot for the turn even if you have powers that allow you to turn one action into more actions you can't use them because you have already used your action that turn. Which is why initiate is so important.
 
TheGrape said:
Wow. Considering Shintai doubles her speed again, Molly might have to worry about the environmental damage caused by her breaking Mach 1 if she's not careful.
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Molly does not need to worry about negative effects from moving too fast.

As a rule if a charms says you can do something you don't care about the physics unless the charm says you do, though physics can be used for stunt fodder. Charm effects generally operate on the principle of "it just works because I say so".

Damage output in not affected by movement speed.
 
uju32 said:
2)Joe the mortal doesnt operate under the same rules as Joe the Exalt.
Note that in ExWoD, mortals dont even have lethal soak unless they are wearing armor.
Meantime, Exalts soak Agg with Stamina iirc; they certainly soak lethal.
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This has nothing to do with soak though, how multiple actions work relative to parry and dodge is independent of what you are, if it worked like that it would have to work like that for everyone. Murphy fighting the Red King could parry/dodge every single one of his super speed attacks as easily as the last no matter how many he throws up. This is not a rule for Exalted, if you want Exalted exceptions to the rule on multiple actions then you guys should get a charm or other form of magic that does that
 
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Speaking of charms, the one roll I'm curious about is how well Steel Skin did in its first combat activation. How high was our soak for the battle?
 
DragonParadox said:
This has nothing to do with soak though, how multiple actions work relative to parry and dodge is independent of what you are, if it worked like that it would have to work like that for everyone. Murphy fighting the Red King could parry/dodge every single one of his super speed attacks as easily as the last no matter how many he throws up. This is not a rule for Exalted, if you want Exalted exceptions to the rule on multiple actions then you guys should get a charm or other form of magic that does that
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Do you see my post on this? I think there's an argument to be made for the rules as intended allowing you to make one defensive roll against a group, but requiring "sequential" ones within the same turn.

So Murphy would make one defensive roll against the red king and say a duke attacking at the same time, then reduced for every bonus attack on the same turn.

The multi attacker rule basically just makes being attacked by multiple opponents at once the same as making the worst defensive roll of an equal sized set of attacks from a single source under this interpretation.

Exalts being able to ignore that as the book already specifies would set it up so you can't overwhelm them with waves of mortals. You need the supernatural mojo to operate at super speed or to hit them with a single source of damage significant enough to break their defenses.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Do you see my post on this? I think there's an argument to be made for the rules as intended allowing you to make one defensive roll against a group, but requiring "sequential" ones within the same turn.

So Murphy would make one defensive roll against the red king and say a duke attacking at the same time, then reduced for every bonus attack on the same turn.

The multi attacker rule basically just makes being attacked by multiple opponents at once the same as making the worst defensive roll of an equal sized set of attacks from a single source under this interpretation.

Exalts being able to ignore that as the book already specifies would set it up so you can't overwhelm them with waves of mortals. You need the supernatural mojo to operate at super speed or to hit them with a single source of damage significant enough to break their defenses.
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That might make sense for extras, or groups of same-ish enemies.
But actual full NPCs will all have different initiatives and attack in different ways.

It makes some sense that you can duck under the spears of some guards with one Dex+Athletics roll.
It would not make sense that you can parry for example Lady Eiko clawing at you and one of her minions trying to shoot your back at once.
 
Artemis1992 said:
That might make sense for extras, or groups of same-ish enemies.
But actual full NPCs will all have different initiatives and attack in different ways.

It makes some sense that you can duck under the spears of some guards with one Dex+Athletics roll.
It would not make sense that you can parry for example Lady Eiko clawing at you and one of her minions trying to shoot your back at once.
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Why not? Exalts don't take multi attacker penalties, which is the same as saying it isn't any more difficult to defend against one opponent than many.

For people will smaller dice pools it barely makes a difference, but an exalt burning essence is throwing around 20 dice of divine glory at the problem. Being highly improbable isn't exactly a deal breaker for them.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Why not? Exalts don't take multi attacker penalties, which is the same as saying it isn't any more difficult to defend against one opponent than many.
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And that is all that means, it doesn't mean it is easier to defend against multiple attacks.

Also an Exalted can easily defend against a whole bunch of attacks in one turn while using an excellency, they just need to use a total defense action and thus give up their normal opportunity to attack to do it. If they have a counterattack or extra attack charm they can even blenderise enemies while doing so.

The scene long reflexive defense charms are rated at five dots for a reason.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
In a way this has the opposite problem, where super speed is even more vital because whoever shows up with it immediately murders anyone without it.
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I mean, that's a perfectly correct way of modeling super-speed? If you have a fight between two opponents able to hurt each other, and only one has super-speed, the one with it wins, no contests, nothing beats someone being able to react and attack you before you do anything.

In fact:


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XhyHyDyBhoM
 
DragonParadox said:
As the lesser Akuma come forth to collect their mistress what message do you wish to send to Emma-O by this act?

[] Write in
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Okay, am I the only one who actually saw this part of the update, because literally no one has even tried to make a write-in for this and just argued about the other vote. And this is arguably the more important of the two votes.

I already posted what I wanted pretty soon after the update, but I don't have the energy to put it in an elegant write-in right now, so I'll just quote myself:
bengalqueen said:
I want a strong theme to this message of "touch what is mine and lose the arm you poke with." Along with a warning that the next group of his servants to harm someone under our protection will be slaughtered to a man facing the same fate as the greater akuma will. And a warning of what that fate is, death beyond what his master can recover him from.

Also, that if he continues to push his luck too far, we'll start coming on hunting missions specifically to hurt him and his, so no getting cute with the exact terms of the wording. We're not Fey, we judge by intent, not exact terms and legalese.
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Aeondrac said:
And that is all that means, it doesn't mean it is easier to defend against multiple attacks.

Also an Exalted can easily defend against a whole bunch of attacks in one turn while using an excellency, they just need to use a total defense action and thus give up their normal opportunity to attack to do it. If they have a counterattack charm they can even blenderise enemies while doing so.

The scene long reflexive defense charms are rated at five dots for a reason.
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The example given with the rules as written is of a character defending against two attacks with one action and doing other stuff. That seems pretty clear to me.

That context fits the rules better in that it basically applies the worst penalty from a sequence of X attacks to a simultaneous assault by X attackers.

Doing it the other way gives multi attackers mechanical benefits of a speed enhancer and group attacker advantage at the same time without paying for it.
 
In terms of theme, remember that most regular vampires won't have Celerity, and for those that do is costs a blood point per action.

When it comes to Wan Kuei, it's a bit different, as Black Wind is more efficient, but comes with the downsides of making both the shadow soul roll to activate a Demonic discipline and a wave soul roll not to frenzy every turn, alongside the issue that most non-elder Wan Kuei will only have three or four dots of demon chi to fuel it, which will take a couple of days to regenerate.

For a non-elder, non-akuma Wan Kuei, doing what Eiko did would usually burn right through their demon chi after two turns. We'd just have to weather the whirlwind and then she'd slow back down.

Akuma are different because they can't enter shadow soul, can have much higher P'o ratings and so more demon chi, and can and probably would be given the investment that allows them to refill their demon chi once per night.
 
Alratan said:
In terms of theme, remember that most regular vampires won't have Celerity, and for those that do is costs a blood point per action.
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Per round of activation, not per action.
So a Vamp with Celerity 3 can get 3 action per bloodpoint.

Also all Whites and Blacks are pretty clearly superhumanly fast in DF, so that's how that would get modeled.
Reds are less fast AFAIK and the non-Akuma Jades are more careful about the Demon Arts, so there it's less common.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Per round of activation, not per action.
So a Vamp with Celerity 3 can get 3 action per bloodpoint.

Also all Whites and Blacks are pretty clearly superhumanly fast in DF, so that's how that would get modeled.
Reds are less fast AFAIK and the non-Akuma Jades are more careful about the Demon Arts, so there it's less common.
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In V20 celerity is a blood point per action. It makes sense to keep Black Wind one Demon chi per round given the additional limits on it and Wan Kuei's smaller pools
 
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Okay, nobody responded at all to my post, so I'm going to just do a write-in myself. At least then we'll have something.

[x] Plan a Poetic Message
-[x] Write in message to send to Emma-O:
-[x] You lean in close, a smile that is more a bearing of teeth. "Here is the message I want you to send your master, Lady Eiko: There once was a fool who called himself king of night eternal. He stole a piece of jade from a rival, and in his carelessness lost it, for he did not understand it. The piece of jade blossomed into a Green Sun, and the fool coveted its power, although it was not for him. He reached out his arm to try and steal its power for himself, but it had grown too great for him to take, and in his arrogance he had dared to harm those that the Sun had declared under her protection, so to punish him for his presumption the entire arm with which he had reached out was lost to him forever, except for a few weak fingers who were not directly involved in harming what the Sun protected, who were allowed to scurry back to their master as a warning. And the Green Sun declared to the fingers that if their master ever dared again to reach out and harm what she had claimed, there would be no fingers left to scurry back. And if the fool dared to flaunt her decree, to dance along the lines of her words while denying her intent, to play with technicalities and word games like the Fair Folk are won't, or to continually harass her people with only hands he wouldn't miss, the Green Sun would reach out herself. She would seek, and she would hunt, and she would burn that which the fool hadn't meant to reach out, in exactly the time and manner where she could hurt him the most, and continue to do so until either the fool learned his lesson, or he was so weakened by the Sun's burns that he was brought down by one of his ever-hungry rivals, and was no longer a threat to the Sun or her people. Do you understand my message, Lady Eiko?"
-[x] If she doesn't, strip away the metaphor in the most blunt and brutal way possible. Once she understands, send them on their way. "I have to go get my people back safely, and cremate an arm that doesn't yet know its dead."

Figured I'd re-use and tweak my poem from before. If anyone has something better, feel free to use it, or to tweak it however you want to make your own version. I really don't care about the loot vote, so do whatever.

Seriously, why am I the only one interested in this part of the vote?
 
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bengalqueen said:
TLDR
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The fact that you voted here is good, but this is way too long for it to have any chances of being voted for.

bengalqueen said:
Seriously, why am I the only one interested in this part of the vote?
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They seems to have gotten pretty distracted by the discussion on celerity that serves absolutely nothing at this point.

Seriously guys, DISCUSS THE VOTE, this is more important than a mechanic for a fight that is already finished.
 
I think the message to send is that

[x] Write in message to send to Emma-O:
-[x] We were prepared to negotiate in good faith, but that he's messed up that opportunity by attacking while we were waiting to do so. Still, we know mercy, and if he's prepared to surrender the akuma responsible to face our justice and pay reparations, we will consider if his offer is sufficient to halt hostilities here.

Over the top threats just make us look bad. We want to establish ourself as a power that other supernatural powers can negotiate with. This is a message to everyone else, not Emma-O, who is noted to be completely dishonourable. Molly isn't, and honour and keeping your word and to the conventions is valued in wider supernatural society.
 
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Nyarky said:
The fact that you voted here is good, but this is way too long for it to have any chances of being voted for.
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I was assuming people would name vote along with whichever loot vote they wanted, which is part of why I didn't include a loot vote. Would I be better changing the first line to a plan name to vote for?

Edit: added plan name for people to vote for
 
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