Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
The vote I am at (no MMP, and Lydia gets Hunter's bolt) might not win, but I am satisfied with it. It's a good vote.
Overall, if we vote for MMP, I can see it being used, as long as we take precautions and are clear of what it is. I would prefer not taking it, but it's not a big red button for me.
I mean, as long as it's only done for fledgelings, I can see the argument that "you like me a bit more, and get to get vampire powers without killing anyone" is a moral choice in the situation.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
My only issue is that the response for how are we going to feed kut current minions is......we will think of something.
This for a -1 on the DC. When the Empress Aura did not get this much flak.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
[x]Null
This is from the ruling on ghouls. I don't have time to dig it up, but they eat more MMP grubs than what it measures out to be a single serving.
That's a matter of perspective, and in particular your opinion on narrative-mechanic interactions.
DPE is a difficulty reducer, but it does it by projecting an image to people. The reduction comes from a reaction to getting a look at what you're dealing with.
MMP works by altering their mental states to make them more compliant to our wishes.
Mechanically they both come down to difficulty reducers of various strengths, but what they actually do in the story itself is different.
Saying they're the same is sort of like saying getting shot and being set on fire are the same as long as they deal the same amount of lethal damage.
At lot of stuff in this area falls into a sort of grey zone, but there's a gradient to it instead of a single monochrome blob.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
DPE - The Infernal garbs herself in hellish authority; all lesser wicked things are like writhing worms or mere grains of sand cast before her, and instinctively recognize this imbalance.
System: Whenever the Infernal deals with a lesser creature of darkness than herself, she permanently reduces the difficulty of all social actions (including the activation roll of powers to suborn the will of such creatures) by two.
The charm literally lowers the difficulty of mindcontrol attempts by 2. I don't know how much more clear it can be.
System: Whenever the Infernal deals with a lesser creature of darkness than herself, she permanently reduces the difficulty of all social actions (including the activation roll of powers to suborn the will of such creatures) by two.
The charm literally lowers the difficulty of mindcontrol attempts by 2. I don't know how much more clear it can be.
The fluff we've used in every activation of the charm has been about displays of power or nature that demonstrate something to the target that impacts their opinion.
As to the secondary effect; that doesn't really say anything definitive about the primary. MiM gives you a filling meal for all targets and flays apart the souls of some specific types of target when you activate it. TTC makes you faster at crafting and can also be actively used to generate tools from nothing. There's a relationship, but a charm can do multiple related things without them all being actually identical in function.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
DPE -
Cause intense fear reaction towards Molly.
Is permanent.
MMP -
Cause mild/vague loyal feelings towards Molly.
Is permanent.
But DPE does -2 and supports mindcontrol effects/attempts.
MMP stops at a mild/vague greatful/loyal feeling.
Just because DPE is hitting the CoD over the head with a base ball bat does not make it any less of a "Mindcontrol" effect as MMP.
Cause intense fear reaction towards Molly.
Is permanent.
MMP -
Cause mild/vague loyal feelings towards Molly.
Is permanent.
But DPE does -2 and supports mindcontrol effects/attempts.
MMP stops at a mild/vague greatful/loyal feeling.
Just because DPE is hitting the CoD over the head with a base ball bat does not make it any less of a "Mindcontrol" effect as MMP.
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Or when they seduce them, or strangle them or....
Really, Solars and mountains have a long and complicated history.
Important detail, yes, let me just:
[X] Say goodbye
-[X] Offer training and equipment instead
-[X] STUNT: "Believe me. I know the feeling. I really do. I grew up with it, even. I won't provide a magical immediate solution right now, not when you are so angry and not thinking clearly. What I will provide, however, are the means. I'll talk to some people, arrange training in how to fight, provide equipment if you want it. And if, by Christmas, you still want to keep fighting, we'll discuss the topic again. I might have something by that time".
[X] Plan Authority is Asskicking
There, no longer fence sitting.
Just to point out, it's not just fear. It's frar and awe. It's a general social dc adjuster. Molly rolling Leadership to inspire troops would also get the bonus, for example. As would Molly calming a frightened fledgling whampire.
DPE is more like seeing someone dressed up like the Devil's own defense attorney as we've used it in the quest. It hasn't modified emotions directly, it's given off the spiritual equivalent of a signal flare for those with the eyes to see and understand it. Or as DP's described it, a loudspeaker constantly blasting at max volume.
MMP is a permanent change to someone else's mind to make them more loyal. They aren't the same thing at all.
If they were, then having done something once and realized there were implications we hadn't thought through once doesn't mean we should keep doing the same thing over and over again.
I don't think your conception of DPE is accurate, but it's not a good argument for your point either way.
This is all independent of the more practical concerns I've raised previously about this on an implementation and PR level.
The impact on the people eating maggots isn't exactly impossible to detectable, and it's been pretty well established that a -1 difficulty reduction is actually decently significant as an effect. If it gets out it has serious potential to mess with stuff like future recruitment.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Yeah no. Just our Presence is enough to cause people to grovel before us. So it is very much comparable. Both effect only interactions people have wigh Molly.
As for the rep, we do not loose and if we fully disclose what rating it does and not force people to eat it.
The charm literally says the eater will feel "Vaguely Loyal". That's it.
Exact quote.
We LITERALLY caused this to multiple we have met, so not exactly obvious.
Honestly, we could go on but I think that at this point let us agree to disagree.
As for the rep, we do not loose and if we fully disclose what rating it does and not force people to eat it.
The charm literally says the eater will feel "Vaguely Loyal". That's it.
Exact quote.
We LITERALLY caused this to multiple we have met, so not exactly obvious.
Honestly, we could go on but I think that at this point let us agree to disagree.
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I think I might leave this up until tomorrow. I do not want to close a vote this contentious at a single vote difference with the conversation still ongoing.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
The way to describe MMA is it satisfys every hunger both natural and supernatural, but it's like fairy food in that you will feel the ties of obligation eating it creates.
Or we don't mention it. I feel like talking about it will just cause problems all around. I don't expect a minis 1 DC to be at all detectable even if we spread it around all over the place.
Or we don't mention it. I feel like talking about it will just cause problems all around. I don't expect a minis 1 DC to be at all detectable even if we spread it around all over the place.
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- Location
- Who knows?
[X] BronzeTongue
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Really if you want to help people as a Infernal you kind of have to accept that helping people gives you power over them. It is kind of baked into all the Infernal charms. We can choose not to abuse that power, but for us trying not to gain power over people is about the same as not trying to help them.
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Having retired Rim and Hammer due to a lack of familiarity with Exalted to do it justice I decided to give another shot to a world and system I know quite a lot about. For anyone interested in Pathfinder 1E: Finding the Spark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Was doing a reread of the earlier chapters and found the part where Harry told us to avoid Undertown. Emphasis mine.
Harry was both very right about his warnings and completely wrong, in the most hilarious possible way, and I just wanted to share this so people can see the irony.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
The mold actually might have been a problem if we didn't auto pass survival checks. Guessing that there is a lot of unhealthy stuff down here. But we are the Transcendent Lord of Flies.
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The vote is tied, I'll leave this up overnight and we will see what Molly's powers have in store for her all of Chicago tomorrow.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
So wait, your position is that we should mind control people, not social them, that way they won't be responsible for any evil they do?
What about any good they do then? Are we robbing them of that too?
As someone else pointed out. Micheal would have things to say to about a "repentance via mind control" scheme.
As for equality, or lack thereof in our relationships. Equality doesn't have to be just about absolute power. It also has to do with the structure and dynamics.
Our minions are in a situation where they are highly dependent on us, Practically speaking they can't walk away without massive costs. So any offer we make to them has to made with that in mind.
It's not just about the power we have. It's about the power we have over the people in question.
Sure, but we can also pick our poisons. It's not like we haven't been successfully working on helping people with Mercy in Servitude.
But not all charms are made equally. Haven't seen many people arguing about the therapeutic uses of Crowned with Fury have we?
So figuring how to help people with the tools we have is a big challenge yes. But we shouldn't just throw up our hands and say it's inevitable. Don't pick the charms with too big downsides, and do use the ones we pick carefully. Think through the implications of various charms and how we can work around them.
I am strongly of the opinion that MMP is one of the ones with too big downsides that cannot be circumvented. Perhaps there are narrow stations where it could help more then harm. But if we only kept to them then we would only be using a fraction of the charm's power. It would be an incredible waste of exp to buy an 8 exp charm that we could hardly ever use.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Ok MMP gives a -1 to DC to social checks against those that eat it. How often do you except us to make social checks against our followers that aren't for their benefit. Are there any cases where we make a social check on our followers where we think that it would be better for them if it didn't pass?
Actually sort of wonder how that works with leadership checks. Those are certainly a social check, but leadership checks aren't about convincing people they are skilled leadership that brings good results. So when we lead people who have eaten it isn't just that they are inclined to follow our orders we become better at giving good orders.
I sort of wish that the training charm included rolls to allow for better results.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
I mainly want Alchemy so that next turn we can go into Harry's and start learning a different Path from Bob. Preferably either Fortune for even more difficulty adjustment hax to add to our current Exalted hax, Warding for the many various things we want to ward against, Healing to grab something that our native charmset straight-up doesn't have, or Hellfire to give us some ranged options better than the 0 ranged options we have now.
Basically there's a lot of ways we can fill out our toolset for big effect with Path Magic, and I want to get started down that road early so we don't lose another turn we can be using to pick up another Path for purchase.
Basically there's a lot of ways we can fill out our toolset for big effect with Path Magic, and I want to get started down that road early so we don't lose another turn we can be using to pick up another Path for purchase.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
Assuming that our wishes are automatically the best possible choice is a very very dangerous path. Having people resist us when we make a stupid choice can be very valuable.
Plus "For their benefit" can be ambiguous. Who's benefit, the individual or the group?
Lets take an example: Asking for volunteers for a dangerous mission or task.
Strictly speaking the mission may be to the benefit of the group. But at the same time it poses considerable risks to the individual.
Those that have been effected by MMP would be more likely to volunteer. But because their judgement has been compromised can we really say that they were volunteering on their free will?