Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Haven't seen many people arguing about the therapeutic uses of Crowned with Fury have we?
I mean we could, but Crowned with Fury is primarily a combat charm that happens to allow for better results then killing the enemy. Just saying that Infernals charms made to help people have the added 'bonus' of giving us more leverage on them. We don't have to use it, but it always there. MIS is is anything more corrersive then MMP.
Assuming that our wishes are automatically the best possible choice is a very very dangerous path.
I mean we basically have to assume that or just stop playing. If you want safe become a hermit and never try and help anyone. Free will is hard to define because it doesn't actually exist in the real world and isn't defined in the Dresden files either.
 
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Actually sort of wonder how that works with leadership checks. Those are certainly a social check, but leadership checks aren't about convincing people they are skilled leadership that brings good results.
I would guess it would be about how in tune they are with us. How well they understand our orders and how well they also work with our other minions. If MMP effect is fluffed as our exaltation staking a certain small claim on our minions, then some magical resonances that result in better followed orders (more "follow the intent as it was actually meant" instead of "follow the order as given") can easily be explained.

Also, f*ck it.

[X] Plan Authority is Asskicking

I don't like alertness, but to hell with it. Lydia will get her magical kamehameha next turn. And we get to see what mutant white court vampires are. And probably get some Jade Court minions (because yes, they will take this deal, 110% guarantee).

Healing to grab something that our native charmset straight-up doesn't have
Harry and Bob are unlikely to be able to teach it, and it's covered by Alchemy anyway:
• A liquid that, when imbibed, removes minor Health Level penalties (through Injured) until the individual is wounded again or heals.
••• A salve which heals three non-aggravated Health Levels worth of open wounds in a matter of minutes. This must be applied by moonlight by one who loves the wounded. Each success creates one application of the balm.
••••• A regenerative powder that, when consumed, allows the user to heal damage very quickly (one level every other turn) for the duration of a story. As a side effect, the user sweats very heavily, smells like a caged beast, and may attract the attention of strange entities.
• Painkiller: a drink that will reduce dice pool penalties from injury by one level
• Speed-Healing: a "potion" that halves healing time for bashing and lethal damage.
•• Healing: In addition to the effects of Speed-Healing, this potion heals up to two bashing or lethal levels immediately.
••••• Regeneration: This powder is rubbed into wounds and will immediately start repairing them. The user will regain one Health Level per turn until the end of the scene.

Those that have been effected by MMP would be more likely to volunteer. But because their judgement has been compromised can we really say that they were volunteering on their free will?
Yeas, as long as we are upfront about the effect, and keep reminding them of it, actually.

-1 DC is not "they follow all our will". It's "they think better of us", and that's something I can live with in certain situations. If we are upfront about it.
 
I mean we could, but Crowned with Fury is primarily a combat charm that happens to allow for better results then killing the enemy. Just saying that Infernals charms made to help people have the added 'bonus' of giving us more leverage on them. We don't have to use it, but it always there. MIS is is anything more corrosive the
MiS doesn't alter their mind at all and is temporary. We have already made various plans for how to have MiS activate that are minimal invasive. Like opening a charity.
MMP is a permanent direct alteration.

I mean we basically have to assume that or just stop playing. If you want safe because a hermit and never try and help anyone.
No? We can course correct. We make a choice, we get feedback, we alter our choice.
Except MMP sabotages the "We get feedback" stage by making people more likely to go with our choice even if they would have objected or protested.

Yeas, as long as we are upfront about the effect, and keep reminding them of it, actually.

-1 DC is not "they follow all our will". It's "they think better of us", and that's something I can live with in certain situations. If we are upfront about it.
"they follow our will more then they would have otherwise". The small scale of the effect doesn't change it's nature. If we tell someone under it's effects to do something they will be more likely to do it.

And well. Having to constantly remind them about how they are under mind control so that they can keep trying to correct for it sounds incredibly troublesome too. Since we are going to be in a position of authority over these people we will be asking them to do things for us.

Unless we like, calculate exactly how much of an effect MMP is having on them, and then intentionally damage their opinion of us in exact proportion that it has been magically altered? But that sounds really fiddly, and let's be honest, we aren't going to do it. At the very minimum it would be a whole lot of extra trouble, which means the charm would be harder to use, and thus even less worth of the 8 exp it costs.
 
And well. Having to constantly remind them about how they are under mind control so that they can keep trying to correct for it sounds incredibly troublesome too. Since we are going to be in a position of authority over these people we will be asking them to do things for us.
A not mind control its being so amazing that the can't help but be awed by us. And B Exalted, Molly is always The Authority over everybody.
 
I don't see things moving much past this point.

Oh well, magical maggot smoothies for all our minions! 🥳
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Feb 15, 2023 at 5:37 PM, finished with 310 posts and 38 votes.

  • [X] Plan Authority is Asskicking
    -[x] Molly: 27xp
    -[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    -[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    -[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    -[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
    -[x] Molly: 29 XP
    -[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    -[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    -[x] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
    -[X] Etiquette 5: 4xp
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    -[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Say goodbye
    -[X] Offer training and equipment instead
    -[X] STUNT: "Believe me. I know the feeling. I really do. I grew up with it, even. I won't provide a magical immediate solution right now, not when you are so angry and not thinking clearly. What I will provide, however, are the means. I'll talk to some people, arrange training in how to fight, provide equipment if you want it. And if, by Christmas, you still want to keep fighting, we'll discuss the topic again. I might have something by that time".
    [X] Plan Duck Out
    -[x] Molly: 29 XP
    --[X]Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    --[X] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    --[X] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    —[x] Bloodless Murk Evasion 9 XP
    —[X] Running to Forever 4 XP
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
    --[X] Command the Dead, 3 XP
    --[X] Authority of the Psychopomp, 3 XP
    --[X]Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Plan Court and War of an Alchemist
    -[x] Molly: 25 xp
    -[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    -[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    -[x] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp (25% of Molly's, rounded down 29 / 4 = 7.25 = 7) + 5 xp = 12 xp
    -[x] Hunter's Bolt: 6 XP
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    [X] Plan Cross Eyed Look
    -[X]Molly: 28xp
    --[X]Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    --[X] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    --[X] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    --[x] Sinner-Boiling Stare 12 XP
    -[x] Lydia: 7 XP + 2 XP (25% of Molly's + 2)
    --[X] Command the Dead, 3 XP
    --[X] Authority of the Psychopomp, 3 XP
    —[x] Righteous Lion Defense 3 XP
    [X]Plan Castle Doctrine
    -[X]Molly: 28xp
    --[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
    --[X]Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X]Etiquette 5: 4xp
    --[X] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[X]Lydia: 8xp (7 base + 1 from Molly)
    --[X] Command the Dead, 3 XP
    --[X] Authority of the Psychopomp, 3 XP
    --[X]Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Plan Alchemy and minions.
    -[X] Molly
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    --[X] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    --[X] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
    ---[X] • Speed-Healing: a "potion" that halves healing time for bashing and lethal damage.
    ---[X] •• Enhance Ability: an elixir that can enhance a specific ability in a person who drinks it. The drinker gains a specialty in that ability for the duration (or +2 dice when it is relevant if they already have one) for one hour per success on the creation.
    -[X] Lydia, 11 XP: 7 XP gained, 8 XP spent (7 +1 from main pool)
    --[X] Authority of the Psychopomp, 3 XP
    --[X] Command the Dead, 3 XP
    --[X] Occult 2, 2 XP
    [x] Make the offer (Must take Inner Devils Unchained Cost 12 XP)
    [X] Say goodbye
    [X] Plan Alchemy and minions.
    -[X] Molly
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    --[X] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    --[X] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
    -[X] Lydia, 11 XP: 7 XP gained, 8 XP spent (7 +1 from main pool)
    --[X] Authority of the Psychopomp, 3 XP
    --[X] Command the Dead, 3 XP
    --[X] Occult 2, 2 XP
    [X]Plan Minion power!
    -[X]Molly 32
    -[X]Inner Devils Unchained Cost 12 XP
    -[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    -[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    -[X] Running to forever 4 XP
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[X]Authority of the Psychomp: 3xp
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    [X] Plan Court and War
    -[x] Molly: 24 xp
    -[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    -[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp (25% of Molly's, rounded down 29 / 4 = 7.25 = 7) + 5 xp = 12 xp
    -[x] Hunter's Bolt: 6 XP
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    [X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
    -[x] Make the Offer
    -[x] Inner Devils Unchained: 12xp
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    -[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    -[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
    -[x] Make the Offer
    -[x] Inner Devils Unchained: 12xp
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    [x] Wind-Born Stride: 8 xp
    -[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    -[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
    [x]Null
 
A not mind control its being so amazing that the can't help but be awed by us. And B Exalted, Molly is always The Authority over everybody.
A: It's a direct and permanent alteration to their mental processes via supernatural means. Anything else is quibbling over semantics.

B: Authority comes with a responsibility to not abuse it. Using our authority to push mental alterations on our subordinates to make them more loyal to us is immoral.

Like the best comparison I can make is imagine we were investigating a homeless shelter. And at the homeless shelter the manager goes and preaches to it's residents about their religion or philosophy or whatever.
Not too bad right? Maybe a little iffy, but the philosophy isn't anything bad so we aren't worried.
Then we discover that the homeless shelter also drugs it's food. They are perfectly upfront about it. Yes we serve drugged food. Yes the drugs make you like the manager more. Yes the drugs are totally permanent.

Oh and there aren't any other homeless shelters in the city.

Don't you see the problem with this?

I don't see things moving much past this point.

Oh well, magical maggot smoothies for all our minions! 🥳
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Feb 15, 2023 at 5:37 PM, finished with 310 posts and 38 votes.

  • [X] Plan Authority is Asskicking
    -[x] Molly: 27xp
    -[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    -[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    -[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    -[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
    -[x] Molly: 29 XP
    -[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    -[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    -[x] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
    -[X] Etiquette 5: 4xp
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    -[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Say goodbye
    -[X] Offer training and equipment instead
    -[X] STUNT: "Believe me. I know the feeling. I really do. I grew up with it, even. I won't provide a magical immediate solution right now, not when you are so angry and not thinking clearly. What I will provide, however, are the means. I'll talk to some people, arrange training in how to fight, provide equipment if you want it. And if, by Christmas, you still want to keep fighting, we'll discuss the topic again. I might have something by that time".
    [X] Plan Duck Out
    -[x] Molly: 29 XP
    --[X]Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    --[X] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    --[X] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    —[x] Bloodless Murk Evasion 9 XP
    —[X] Running to Forever 4 XP
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
    --[X] Command the Dead, 3 XP
    --[X] Authority of the Psychopomp, 3 XP
    --[X]Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Plan Court and War of an Alchemist
    -[x] Molly: 25 xp
    -[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    -[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    -[x] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp (25% of Molly's, rounded down 29 / 4 = 7.25 = 7) + 5 xp = 12 xp
    -[x] Hunter's Bolt: 6 XP
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    [X] Plan Cross Eyed Look
    -[X]Molly: 28xp
    --[X]Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    --[X] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    --[X] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    --[x] Sinner-Boiling Stare 12 XP
    -[x] Lydia: 7 XP + 2 XP (25% of Molly's + 2)
    --[X] Command the Dead, 3 XP
    --[X] Authority of the Psychopomp, 3 XP
    —[x] Righteous Lion Defense 3 XP
    [X]Plan Castle Doctrine
    -[X]Molly: 28xp
    --[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
    --[X]Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X]Etiquette 5: 4xp
    --[X] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[X]Lydia: 8xp (7 base + 1 from Molly)
    --[X] Command the Dead, 3 XP
    --[X] Authority of the Psychopomp, 3 XP
    --[X]Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Plan Alchemy and minions.
    -[X] Molly
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    --[X] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    --[X] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
    ---[X] • Speed-Healing: a "potion" that halves healing time for bashing and lethal damage.
    ---[X] •• Enhance Ability: an elixir that can enhance a specific ability in a person who drinks it. The drinker gains a specialty in that ability for the duration (or +2 dice when it is relevant if they already have one) for one hour per success on the creation.
    -[X] Lydia, 11 XP: 7 XP gained, 8 XP spent (7 +1 from main pool)
    --[X] Authority of the Psychopomp, 3 XP
    --[X] Command the Dead, 3 XP
    --[X] Occult 2, 2 XP
    [x] Make the offer (Must take Inner Devils Unchained Cost 12 XP)
    [X] Say goodbye
    [X] Plan Alchemy and minions.
    -[X] Molly
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    --[X] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    --[X] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
    -[X] Lydia, 11 XP: 7 XP gained, 8 XP spent (7 +1 from main pool)
    --[X] Authority of the Psychopomp, 3 XP
    --[X] Command the Dead, 3 XP
    --[X] Occult 2, 2 XP
    [X]Plan Minion power!
    -[X]Molly 32
    -[X]Inner Devils Unchained Cost 12 XP
    -[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    -[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    -[X] Running to forever 4 XP
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[X]Authority of the Psychomp: 3xp
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    [X] Plan Court and War
    -[x] Molly: 24 xp
    -[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    -[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp (25% of Molly's, rounded down 29 / 4 = 7.25 = 7) + 5 xp = 12 xp
    -[x] Hunter's Bolt: 6 XP
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    [X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
    -[x] Make the Offer
    -[x] Inner Devils Unchained: 12xp
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    -[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
    -[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    -[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
    -[x] Make the Offer
    -[x] Inner Devils Unchained: 12xp
    -[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
    [x] Wind-Born Stride: 8 xp
    -[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
    -[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
    -[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
    -[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
    -[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
    [X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
    [x]Null
I really hope not. The vote has moved by more then 3 votes that several times already no? Hardly time to call it yet.
 
Indecisiveness

[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
-[x] Molly: 29 XP

-[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
-[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
-[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
-[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
-[x] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
-[X] Etiquette 5: 4xp
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
 
[] Healing, one of the most demanding and complex fields of magic as well as one in which Bob has limited experience, but if you can master this it might be a boon beyond price in battle alongside allies less tough than yourself

Harry and Bob are unlikely to be able to teach it, and it's covered by Alchemy anyway:
It was literally an option when we chose a Path to learn, and that's only an argument against that specific Path when I gave 4 examples on my wishlist. Your argument is not convincing to me.
 
Yeah no. Just our Presence is enough to cause people to grovel before us. So it is very much comparable. Both effect only interactions people have wigh Molly.

As for the rep, we do not loose and if we fully disclose what rating it does and not force people to eat it.

The charm literally says the eater will feel "Vaguely Loyal". That's it.

Exact quote.

We LITERALLY caused this to multiple we have met, so not exactly obvious.

Honestly, we could go on but I think that at this point let us agree to disagree.
It's not about the end effect so much as how it gets there. They're awed because they see something awe inspiring, not because we reach out and modify them. A pauper seeing an emperor and their envoy would cause a pauper to grovel in the same way.

I disagree on the reputation stuff. If it was temporary then I'd be on board, as I've said previously. I just don't think we can convince someone that permanent loyalty programming, however minor, is actually anything but what it looks like.

Part of the difference here is in context as well. When we've inspired awe or loyalty in the past it's been for things that are or present themselves as reasonable causes, and they don't have a supernatural effect after we're gone.

Eating a grub and instantly becoming consistently more loyal in the same way everyone else who's eaten them has regardless of how highly or lowly they thought of Molly previously is a noticeable pattern.

It's worth noting that people IC aren't stupid, and are primed to look for this stuff because the ones who don't get eaten by groups like the pathfinders.
 
I was a little surprised DP ruled that the minus 1 is a permanent effect. I mean it does make the charm far more powerful, but it also makes the effects more distance from the eating part. Give Mab a snack and forever more be better at socializing her.
 
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Right. To summarize my arguments so far in a last ditch attempt to turn the vote:

Why Maggot Mana Plague is Bad:

1) Maggot Mana Plague is mind control:
It is a directly alters the cognition of the target via supernatural means so to make them more loyal to us. This is permanent and affects all interactions we ever have with the target

2) The effects are permanent:
This bears repeating. A single meal and the effect never goes away. If it was temporary maybe we could work around it. But being permanent hampers that.

3) Effect on Molly as a character:
Molly has a history with mind control. "Benevolent" mind control even. Yes we can vote for her to use MMP, but it's going to have ramifications on her.

4) Effects on our reputation
Permanent loyalty programming is going to look extremely suspect to anyone observing us. People will be less likely to want to join us, and deal with us. Because it doesn't matter how happy your minions seem, if it's tainted with mental influence.

5) Effects on our relationships
How would Michael Carpenter react if he learnt of this? How would Harry Dresden? Feeding our minions on fairy food, except the influence can never be payed off.

6) Using Maggot Mana Plague on our minions is an abuse of authority.
If the only soup kitchen in the city gives out drugged food, do you really have a choice on if to eat the drugs or not?

7) Maggot Mana Plague is expensive:
8 exp isn't small. With all the issues I have outlined I really don't think it's worth it. There are much better things we can get for that 8 exp.
After all, I shouldn't need to prove that MMP is worse then every other option. Just that it is worse then whatever we would take in place of it.

8) Maggot Mana Plague is unnecessary:
We don't need to take it to feed our minions. MiS and proper organisation is more then enough.


I hope this is at least somewhat convincing. My plan name "[] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control." says it all.
But we do need a lot of other things that the exp could go to. Like alchemy. Or higher skills and stats. So if you aren't willing to vote against MMP, I urge you to at least consider voting for them.
 
7) Maggot Mana Plague is expensive:
8 exp isn't small. With all the issues I have outlined I really don't think it's worth it. There are much better things we can get for that 8 exp.
After all, I shouldn't need to prove that MMP is worse then every other option. Just that it is worse then whatever we would take in place of it.
This is the best argument against the Charm, IMO.
 
Unfortunately, what people are going for is Etiquette 5.

In all honesty, I would have voted or at least considered the other option if it had RtF in place of Etiquette 5. All this does is give us 1 dice and 2 dice with an excellency and we do not really need this right now.

I also have not gotten a satisfactory answer of how we are going to feed our minions with special dietary needs that kills others or addictions other that "We will think of something" or "It is hard but we can do it".
 
8) Maggot Mana Plague is unnecessary:
We don't need to take it to feed our minions. MiS and proper organisation is more then enough
On this point it's also worth repeating that one our hell will almost certainly be able to support ethical large scale feeding for white vampires by virtue of killing the target not being a problem anymore. Death by snu snu from a Raith is effectively just a supernaturally enthusiast hickey at that point, and any of them can learn alternative feeding styles after they fledge.

At our current exp acquisition rate we're someone like an arc or so out from hitting essence 3, so what we're really talking about is spending 8 XP on a patch we won't even need in something on the order of a couple months at most.

Other supernatural creatures have their own problems, but in a large enough population you'll find someone willing to do almost anything just because they can, or for a reasonable incentive relative to the task.
 
Unfortunately, what people are going for is Etiquette 5.

In all honesty, I would have voted or at least considered the other option if it had RtF in place of Etiquette 5. All this does is give us 1 dice and 2 dice with an excellency and we do not really need this right now.

I also have not gotten a satisfactory answer of how we are going to feed our minions with special dietary needs that kills others or addictions other that "We will think of something" or "It is hard but we can do it".
I would greatly prefer Running to Forever over Etiquette 5 as well, but I'll take what victories I can get.
 
Unfortunately, what people are going for is Etiquette 5.

In all honesty, I would have voted or at least considered the other option if it had RtF in place of Etiquette 5. All this does is give us 1 dice and 2 dice with an excellency and we do not really need this right now.

I also have not gotten a satisfactory answer of how we are going to feed our minions with special dietary needs that kills others or addictions other that "We will think of something" or "It is hard but we can do it".
Etiquette 5 and Alchemy 2.
Admittedly if I had thought of RtF when I was making the plan I would have included it instead. But when I was making it I saw Etiquette 5 in one of the running up plans and put it in because it seemed like what would give the plan the best chance of winning.

Anyway I assume we would have wanted Etiquette 5 sometime in the next few level ups so it's not a total waste.

If anyone wants to make a RtF varrient of the plan then I would be perfectly happy to approval vote for it. Or maybe I will make it, one sec...

As for feeding our minions. MiS really helps a lot with that. With perfect control they can feed without killing. At that point it's just a matter of finding people willing to donate. At the very worst we could just pay people for it or whatever.
 
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On this point it's also worth repeating that one our hell will almost certainly be able to support ethical large scale feeding for white vampires by virtue of killing the target not being a problem anymore.
So you have no moral outrage of asking people who see Molly as a Goddess or are so Fanatical that they will die for her, literally, but MMP is your cut off point?

Keep in mind that one of the objections raised is that Molly has power over the Wvampires which is many times the case with the people in the Hell world.

Can you propose an idea of feeding ALL our minions, not just the WVampires with something more "Feed our other minions to them".
 
[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
[X] Plan Duck Out
[X] Plan Cross Eyed Look
[X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
[X] Plan Court and War of an Alchemist

[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control. (With Running to Forever)
-[x] Molly: 29 XP

-[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
-[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
-[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
-[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
-[x] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
-[x] Running to Forever: 4xp
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp

Tada! Anyone want to approval vote for it? Not too late for a new vote to win.
Honestly I prefer this version, but my biggest concern is that MMP isn't in the winning vote.

So please keep approval voting as necessary.
 
Can White Court vampires even feed on humans without mind control being involved? Even Thomas at the hair salon who was barely feeding gave the woman a thrill.
 
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So you have no moral outrage of asking people who see Molly as a Goddess or are so Fanatical that they will die for her, literally, but MMP is your cut off point?

Keep in mind that one of the objections raised is that Molly has power over the Wvampires which is many times the case with the people in the Hell world.

Can you propose an idea of feeding ALL our minions, not just the WVampires with something more "Feed our other minions to them".
The short of it is:
Find people willing to donate life force, and facilitate feeding in a way minimizes harm.

Everything else is just details. Maybe we do big distrusted feeding events like the horror movies thing. Maybe we invent some magi tech device that can store life energy and have people donate to that.
Maybe we pay people to donate. Maybe we just find a population or really enthusiastic volunteers. Whatever.

The point is that we have all the tools necessary. We just have to decide how to put things together.

Nope. The irony is that by ExWoD standards, what effect they cause while feeding is classified as "Mindcontrol" by the mechanics.
The impermanence is important though. If a Wvampire is feeding at a horror movie then perhaps some of the attendees will feel a little more scared then they would have otherwise. But the change is temporarily, and given the context little-no harm is done. Especially if it is done with the consent and knowledge of the affected.
 
Unfortunately, what people are going for is Etiquette 5.

In all honesty, I would have voted or at least considered the other option if it had RtF in place of Etiquette 5. All this does is give us 1 dice and 2 dice with an excellency and we do not really need this right now.

I also have not gotten a satisfactory answer of how we are going to feed our minions with special dietary needs that kills others or addictions other that "We will think of something" or "It is hard but we can do it".
The answer to how we do it ethically in the near term is to take pages out of the white vamp outcast book. Thomas uses his powers to feed a little bit at a time while styling hair, and to find people already interested in one night stands at bars. At least one Malvora hangs out in horror movies and sips a little on everyone in the room. Skavis are harder, but we got a ruling that said they can learn new styles post fledge.

If they've fledged they stay in power saver mode till they learn how to eat something less awful, and if they haven't then they suck it up until we can get a reincarnating fetishist to help them in our hell.

So you have no moral outrage of asking people who see Molly as a Goddess or are so Fanatical that they will die for her, literally, but MMP is your cut off point?

Keep in mind that one of the objections raised is that Molly has power over the Wvampires which is many times the case with the people in the Hell world.

Can you propose an idea of feeding ALL our minions, not just the WVampires with something more "Feed our other minions to them".
As long as we don't go any higher than loyal on that particular perk chain they explicitly aren't death cult tier devoted to our cause. Organizing connections between willing people isn't forcing them into things any more than literally anything else we do with them would be. They also aren't forced to stay loyal after the world starts turning. If we screw up they can change their minds about us.

What other minions are you worried about right now exactly?

Our ghouls eat mortal foods just fine as long as they have MiS coverage. Reds can take fresh blood without a bite, as we see with some of the half vamps doing stuff like that to heal, that's no more onerous than donating blood would be.

Jades we can't really tell with yet, but we don't really have any right now anyway. Maybe we get some, and maybe they have no other way to feed but directly eating people, but that's a much less substantial argument for the charm than "our minions can't really stop being monsters without it".
 
For examply, any Hungry Dead we pick up that we need to feed live Human flesh to?

There are a bunch of Akuma that want to jump ship.
The disposable minion they sent to deliver a death threat to an infernal's face had bone Shintai 3, I doubt they bothered to bring a stack of barely coherent corpses with them. This isn't their how territory, the logistics of keeping them around would be more annoying than they're worth.
 
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