Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Its as shifty as when the Reds dosed the drinks at a diplomatic reception with venom and claimed it wasnt poison because it was given to everyone, including their own people. Or when the Red King used a translator to make a deal so he could claim that he didnt say anything, so he wasnt obliged to uphold it.
This is an exaggeration at best. Those cases involved clear contradictions of established mores in bullshit ways, but no one involved in the supernatural expects you to clearly ensure the full understanding of everything you're doing when working with others. The fey wrote many of the formal rules, and they'd collectively sprain something laughing at that suggestion.



Dresden actually attacked the Leanansidhe with Amoracchius.
Like I said, by Dresdenverse terms, this is pretty mannerly for a surprise meeting between potential hostiles.
Our thinking about attack =/= attack.


Marcone and Gard saved Dresden from being eaten by a ghoul in Dead Beat after Corpsetaker wrecked him.
No coercion, no promises, no obligations.
Dresden got Marcone to save a bunch of people in White Night by saying please. No extra payment.

Lara Raith had no obligation to let Dresden go at the end of Blood Rites; they were on Raith lands, and disappearing the only wizard in Chicago would have left her a free hand in the city.
She let him walk.

There are benefits to having a predictable and honorable reputation.
People dont go out of their way to screw you when they get the opportunity.
Each of those examples has a selfish motive in it. Marcone didn't save Dresden out of the kindness of his heart, he did it because Dresden made himself an important part of Chicago's supernatural immune system.

Lara and Dresden had both just been through a hell of a fight, and she owed him for his part in it. Acknowledging a debt like that doesn't eliminate the animus there.
1)Yes they very much do.
None of those were monlogues. They were talks, negotiations, offers. Even Madrigal Raith wasnt monologuing; Dresden was trying to get him to talk, and later to ask the White Council for a ransom(he did, they declined to pay).
These are still all things where you have to talk to get what you want; you can't make a sale without talking to the customer. A separate conversation beyond the immediate scope of whatever's being discussed is different.

2)A Jade Court boddithsava in town is A. Very. Big. Deal.
Forget the political side of the Jade Court apparently taking action in the West, which they have apparently seldom done.
In WoD terms a Kuei Jin buddha is supposed to be equivalent to Kindred Methuselahs.

It would be like having the Red King send a Lord of Outer Night to Chicago.
This has escalated well past anything Madrigal Raith could hope to keep a lid on; OldSkavis will be going to the top of any hierarchy he has access to, and calling a lot of people once he gets out of here.
His behavior doesn't match what I'd expect from someone who thinks he's in the room with a lord of the outer night. For one thing, he actually tried to make an intimidation check. I think he was either deliberately flattering us with that or that the power scale doesn't line up the same.
3)Feel free to disagree.
But the fact remains that in the supernatural world, there are very few arbitration authorities. As a consequence? People have to trust you(or be desperate) to do business with you, or they will take elaborate precautions upfront. Or charge exorbitantly.

Your reputation materially affects the willingness of people to take the risk of business or diplomacy with you.
Once you begin ruleslawyering encounters and dealings with people, people's willingness to give you the benefit of the doubt goes down.

And we are an Infernal, which means we already start with a malus to our reputation among large swathes of the supernatural.
We cannot afford to worsen it.
We will be dealing with the White Court for years. What we do here sets a tone
Don't think we're going to convince each other of anything here. I disagree with how unacceptable this is to the supernatural community as a whole and with the weight you're giving to this encounter itself.

I do not agree.

Molly spent several months living outside of her home in the backstory of this quest. She literally cleaned up post-combat in a Marcone brothel after killing Kattrin. The idea of the sex trade and ancillary businesses is not a shock to her. She is very aware of it. She's not crusading over it.

Human trafficking? Coercion and largescale blackmail? Subversion of the govt? Yes, that will get action. People being hired under more or less human practices? Disapproval is as far as it is going to go, but she isnt going to actively go after them.Evidence from Blood Rites suggest that the Whites dont lean very hard on active powers in that business anyway.

They dont have to, because human proclivities.
It's a massive white court op, I'm doubtful of the idea that they use keep people bound using sketchy hiring practices. Most have no moral issue with it, actively dehumanize mortals, and would find their jobs much easier if they used them right.

It's like expecting reds to avoid using their narcotic spit.
 
Okay, a little free time.
Let me try and talk about what we know about the Jade Court(Dresden Files) and the Kuei Jin Bodhitsattva (Kindred of the East, WoD)

Jade Court are canonically based in and around the Yangtse Valley
They are conservative and isolationist, to the point they consider China to be a relatively new invention.
They feed on breath, and by Word of Jim can kill you from the hotel across the street.

They are secretive, do not offer or respond to invitations, and deal with outsiders only through intermediaries.
They arent officially signatories of the Unseelie Accords, but are treated that way, because people who offer them disrespect even at secondhand come to gruesome ends. Shiro had some dealimgs with them when he was alive.

We've never seen them onscreen in canon.

Now, Kuei-Jin from WoD? Are ranked as follows, in order of their Dharma:
Chih-mei: 0
Hin: 0-1
Disciple: 1-3
Jina:4-5
Mandarin:6+
Ancestor:7+
Bodhisattva: 9+
Arhat: ∞

Chih-mei are the freshly risen cannibalistic monsters that are freshly escaped from the Hells.
Arhat are at the other end of the scale; essentially, they are vampire saints who have achieved enlightenment, transcended their Hunger and dont need to feed; just waiting for their time to end and them to ascend.

In between are different stages, who differ in power and how they feed, from human flesh to blood to breath to environmental chi.

Bodhisattvas are believed to obtain communion with the spirit worlds, with ascended Kuei-Jin and even Yama Kings.
Most are supposed to have withdrawn from society, to live as ascetics in the wilderness or in isolated communities. They are canonically revered, and can move large sections of their society.

One showing up in Chicago would be a major event, not just because of their personal power, but because of the social power they wield in Kuei-Jin society, meaning they can call on supernatural nationstate resources.

So if OldSkavis is serious in calling us a buddha, or even along the lines of an ancestor or mandarin?
He's going to be calling a lot of people after he gets out of here.
 
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One showing up in Chicago would be a major event, not just because of their personal power, but because of the social power they wield in Kuei-Jin society, meaning they can call on supernatural nationstate resources.
I don't think his behavior bears out this power or influence comparison.

The guy is good, but I doubt anyone running errands for Madrigal is powerful enough to have any business trying to play intimidation games with a bodhisattva or prodding one like he has been. He let his niece make an open ended service agreement with Molly when given at least one other option to avoid it. These aren't the actions of someone who thinks that they're dealing with a vampiric demigod.

My bet is that he basically picked a high rank to flatter us with, or deliberately picked the highest he knew off to see if we'd correct him and give something away while doing so.
 
I mean we aren't disguised. He is going to match our description with Molly Carpenter fairly soon one way or another. Not sure what his reaction to that would be. I would love to be a fly on the wall for that happening.

Maybe they get an incomplete account of our rescue for winter and think that we were rescued from the hell realms?
 
Maybe they get an incomplete account of our rescue for winter and think that we were rescued from the hell realms?
I mean, technically possible, but doesn't explain the sheer metaphysical weight Molly has. In the realms of "unlikely, but theoretically possible" someone could pump a fresh-out-of-hell Wan Kuei with a bunch of endowments, but not the point of reaching Elder Dharma.
White vamp vicissitude
Quoted text looks more like Elder Celerity stuff, tbh. Those can get pretty impressive.
 
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REPLY
This is an exaggeration at best. Those cases involved clear contradictions of established mores in bullshit ways, but no one involved in the supernatural expects you to clearly ensure the full understanding of everything you're doing when working with others. The fey wrote many of the formal rules, and they'd collectively sprain something laughing at that suggestion.
The Fae are markedly infamous for their ability to twist words, and it means that people try to avoid dealing with them as much as possible. That people deal with them anyway is a testament to just how inescapable a role they play in the setting.
We dont want to be treated like the fae. We cant afford it.

Each of those examples has a selfish motive in it. Marcone didn't save Dresden out of the kindness of his heart, he did it because Dresden made himself an important part of Chicago's supernatural immune system.

Lara and Dresden had both just been through a hell of a fight, and she owed him for his part in it. Acknowledging a debt like that doesn't eliminate the animus there.
I distinctly remember Gard telling Marcone that Dresden was fated to die in that alley and that interfering would have repercussions.
And he laughs and says go ahead.
Marcone took a risk to save his life, one whose dimensions he hasnt really figured out even now.

Then there was when he backed up Dresden and the Knights against Nicodemus in Death Masks.
When he could just have skipped town and waited out the events.


No, you are thinking about White Night.
Im thinking of Blood Rites, where Dresden got Papa Raith to confess to having no loyalties for his children without knowing Dresden had arranged for Lara to be in earshot, subsequent to which Lara breaks his mind.

She could have eaten him there too; she was fresh, he wasnt, and there was no explicit truce between them.
She let him go. This is further buttressed in Peace Talks, where she thinks he betrayed her after he imprisoned Thomas, and takes it as a personal affront that she misjudged his character.

These are still all things where you have to talk to get what you want; you can't make a sale without talking to the customer. A separate conversation beyond the immediate scope of whatever's being discussed is differe
The same applies here.

His behavior doesn't match what I'd expect from someone who thinks he's in the room with a lord of the outer night. For one thing, he actually tried to make a
He tried an Intimidation check in desperation when we first entered the room.
He didnt try one after we demonstrated the ability to suppress Isabella's Hunger. And it was after whatever it was he saw in Molly's aura during that event that he began to call her bodhittsava.

Don't think we're going to convince each other of anything here. I disagree with how unacceptable this is to the supernatural community as a whole and with the weight you're giving to this encounter itsel
Fair enough.

It's a massive white court op, I'm doubtful of the idea that they use keep people bound using sketchy hiring practices. Most have no moral issue with it, actively dehumanize mortals, and would find their jobs much easier if they used them right.
It's like expecting reds to avoid using their narcotic spit.
Counterpoint:
The entire A-plot of Blood Rites, which was based around the Pale King sabotaging an independent porn studio's first project with magic. They could have just trivially mind whammied Arturo Genosa's financial backers, bankers and all his major staff into withdrawing. They could even have whammied him.

Instead, you have the entire thing with the three strega and entropy curses.
Which suggests that Whampires are a lot more sparing about their willingness to openly use Whampire magic in their business affairs than we assume. Which fits with their stated preference for indirection and catspaws.
 
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I don't think his behavior bears out this power or influence comparison.

The guy is good, but I doubt anyone running errands for Madrigal is powerful enough to have any business trying to play intimidation games with a bodhisattva or prodding one like he has been. He let his niece make an open ended service agreement with Molly when given at least one other option to avoid it. These aren't the actions of someone who thinks that they're dealing with a vampiric demigod.

My bet is that he basically picked a high rank to flatter us with, or deliberately picked the highest he knew off to see if we'd correct him and give something away while doing so.
Counterpoint:
See Kinkaid intimidating Dresden in Blood Rites. See Big Brother Gruff doing it in Small Favor. See random spider fae trying it in Turn Coat. See Dresden himself trying to intimidate the Winter Lady Maeve in Proven Guilty. Or when he tried to intimidate the Merlin in Changes.

A lot of the initial interactions in the Dresdenverse are threat displays and bluffs to get the other person to back down.

Note that OldSkavis didnt make any threats in his own name, or that of Madrigal Raith, but in the name of the Winter Court, the western supernatural community, AND the mortal world.
Before you can make good on the threat the shock on the elder's face changes to something imperious and cold. "I do not know what you seek here Gui Ren, but you are meddling with the righteous hegemon of this realm. Leave this place or no veil will hide you from the ire of the dark-dwellers or the glaring eye of the daylight world."
 
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The entire A-plot of Blood Rites, which was based around the Pale King sabotaging an independent porn studio's first project with magic. They could have just trivially mind whammied Arturo Genosa's financial backers, bankers and all his major staff into withdrawing. They could even have whammied him.

Instead, you have the entire thing with the three strega and entropy curses.
Which suggests that Whampires are a lot more sparing about their willingness to openly use Whampire magic in their business affairs than we assume. Which fits with their stated preference for indirection and catspaws.
I expect that it's because there are costs involved in using Whampire magic. Imagine if we needed to torture someone to death in order to regain essence. Even if we had absolutely no problems with torturing people to death we still wouldn't use essanse much because of the logistical load of constantly torturing people to death.

So every time we see white Court vampires use their magic there is a lot of background finding victims, harvesting and cover ups that we don't see. It's a bit like how fighter jets are really amazing and can do a lot of stuff, but if you use a fighter jet to get everywhere you are quickly going to go broke.
 
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Quoted text looks more like Elder Celerity stuff, tbh. Those can get pretty impressive
Nah.
I think we saw the Whampire versions of Potence and Celerity earlier in the scene, when Madrigal Raith was throwing knives at significant percentages of the speed of sound, and Vittorio Malvora was pulling feats of gunmanship.

I quote:
Some people are faster than others. I'm fast. Always have been, especially for a man my size, but this duel had gotten off to a fair start, and no merely mortal hand is faster than a vampire's.
Vitto Malvora's gun cleared its holster before my fingers had tightened on the blasting rod's handle. The weapon resembled a fairly standard Model 1911, but it had an extension to the usual ammunition clip sticking out of the handle, and it spat a spray of bullets in the voice of a yowling buzz saw.
Some vampires are faster than others. Vitto was fast. He'd drawn and fired more swiftly than I'd ever seen Thomas move, more swiftly than I'd seen Lara shoot. But bodies, even nigh-immortal vampire bodies, are made of flesh and blood, and have mass and inertia. No hand, not even a vampire's, is swifter than thought.

Ramirez already had his power held ready when the scarlet cloth hit the ground, and in that instant he hissed a single syllable under his breath and flipped his left hand palm up. That bizarre glove he wore flashed and let out a rattling buzz of furious sound.
A sudden, gelatinous cloud of green light interposed itself between us and the vampires before even Vitto could fire. The bullets struck against that gooey cloud, sending watery ripple patterns racing across it, plowing a widening furrow through the semisolid mass. There was a hissing sound, a sharp pain high up on my left cheek, and then I was slapped across the chest by a spray of tiny, dark particles the size of grains of sand.
Ramirez's shield was nothing like my own. I used raw force to create my own steel-hard barrier. Ramirez's spell was based on principles of entropy and water magic, and focused on disrupting, shattering, and dispersing any objects trying to pass through it, turning their own energy against them. Even magic must do business with physics, and Carlos couldn't simply make the energy the bullets carried go away. Instead, the spell reduced their force by shattering the bullets with their own momentum, breaking them into zillions of tiny pieces, spreading them out, so that their individual impact energy would be negligible.
When the dispersed cloud of leaden sand struck me, it was unpleasant and uncomfortable, but it had lost so much power that it wouldn't have gotten through an ordinary leather coat, or even a thick shirt, much less my spell-laced duster.
If I'd had time to breathe a sigh of relief, I would have. I didn't. Every bit of focus I had was bent on slamming a surge of energy and will through my blasting rod, even before I had the business end lifted all the way up.
"Fuego !" I cried.
A column of fire as thick as a telephone pole flew from the tip of the rod, struck the ground twenty feet away, and then whipped across the floor toward Vitto as I finished lifting my weapon.
He was fast. He'd barely had time to register that his bullets had missed their target before the fire came for him, but he flung himself to one side in a desperate dive. As he went, he gained enough of an angle to get him just around the edge of Rodriguez's highly visible shield, and the vampire's hand flickered to his belt to whip one of those knives at me in a side-armed throw.
It would have been a waste of time for any human. Thrown knives aren't terribly good killing weapons to begin with—I mean, in the movies and TV, every time someone throws a knife it kills somebody. Wham, it slams to the hilt in their chest, right into the heart, or glurk, it sinks into their throat and they die instantly. Real knives don't generally kill you unless the thrower gets abnormally lucky. Real knives, if they hit with the pointy part at all, generally only inflict a survivable—if very distracting—injury.
Of course, when real people throw real knives, they don't fling them at a couple of hundred miles an hour. Most of them haven't had centuries to practice, either.
That knife flickered as it came, and if I hadn't hunched up my shoulder and tucked my face down behind it, the knife might have found the flesh of my neck and killed me. Instead, its tip struck the duster's mantle at an oblique angle, and the weapon skittered off the spell-armored coat and tumbled off on a wobbly arc.
Vitto landed in a tumble, teeth clenched over a scream of pain. His left leg was on fire from the knee down, but he was smart—he didn't stop, drop, and roll. In fact, he didn't stop at all, and it was the only thing that kept my second blast from immolating him. The lance of flame missed him by a foot and momentarily smashed the curtain of falling water behind the white throne into steam. Beside me, I heard Ramirez fling out one of those green blasts.
"Harry!" Ramirez screamed.
I turned my head in time to see Madrigal coming at us from nearly straight ahead, his spear in hand. Ramirez hurled a second shaft of green light at him, but it splashed against an unseen barrier a foot away from his body. Glitters of golden light ran up and down the symbols on the cloth strips wrapped around his arms. I understood, then. Ramirez's second shot had been a demonstration.
"He's warded!" Ramirez snarled.
"Drop back!" I snapped, as Vitto came streaking toward me down the other sideline. He was reloading the gun as he came, dropping the old magazine, slapping a new one in. I lifted my shield bracelet, readying it—then hesitated for a fraction of a second to get the timing just right, gauging angles of incidence and refraction.
Vitto's hand game up and the gun snarled again.
I brought the shield up at the last second, a flat plane perpendicular to the floor, and Ramirez took a hopping step back just in time to get behind the shield as it formed. Twenty or thirty bullets ricocheted off the invisible barrier in a shower of sparks—and spalled more or less toward Madrigal Raith and his magical protection.
The nifty armbands apparently weren't made to stop physical projectiles, because one of the bouncing bullets ripped through the outside of his thigh with an ugly explosion of torn cloth and a misty burst of pale blood. He screamed and faltered, throwing out one hand to catch his balance before he could hit the floor.
"Drop it!" Ramirez shouted. His hand blurred toward his pistol, and he drew it before Madrigal could get moving again.
I pivoted the shield to clear Ramirez, taking a couple of steps forward to wall Vitto away from Carlos's flank, and transmuted the far surface of the shield into a reflective mirror.
Ramirez's gun began to roar beside me—measured shots that were actually aimed, as opposed to the rapid crack-crack-crack of panic fire.
Vitto reacted to the gunfire and the suddenly appearing mirrored wall ten feet long and eight feet high with instant violence. He flung the heavy handgun at a suddenly appearing and swift-moving target before he could realize that it was his own reflection. The gun had its slide locked open, and when it hit the shield at the speed he threw it, something in the assembly slipped, and it bounced off in several pieces.
Vitto slowed down for a step, eyes widening, and I didn't blame him one bit. It would have made me blink for a second if my opponent had suddenly changed open air into the back wall of a dance studio.
Then he accelerated again and did something I wasn't ready for. He bounded straight up into the air, a good ten or twelve feet, arching over the top of my shield in an instant and flinging knives with each hand as he came
. I threw up my right arm, trying to interpose it with the oncoming knife as far out from my body as I could. The knife hit flat, which was fine, where the leather of my duster's sleeve covered my arm. The handle of the knife, though, hit my naked wrist, and my right hand abruptly went numb. I heard the other knife whisper as it tumbled through the air beside me, missing me.
"Madre de Dios!" Carlos screamed.
The blasting rod tumbled from my useless fingers.
I cursed and flung myself to one side as Vitto landed on the inside of my shield, his sword whipping from its scabbard in a horizontal slash at my throat. My tactical thinking had been limited to two dimensions, maybe reinforced by the mockery of the sports field we fought on. The second knife had missed me because Vitto hadn't been aiming for me. Its handle now protruded from Ramirez's right calf.
I couldn't move my fingers correctly, which precluded the use of the energy rings on my right hand. I dropped the shield—all it would do with him already so close was slow down my movement. I'd have to re-form it between me and him the second I got a chance, which he didn't seem inclined to give me. He sent a lightning-quick thrust at my guts, and I had to dance back a pair of steps to buy myself enough time to parry it with a sweep of the staff in my left hand.
There was no way I could fence with Vitto. Even if he didn't totally outclass me, physically, fighting one-armed with a staff against a competent fighter with a rapier is not a winning proposition. If I tried it, I'd be backing away from him in circles until I tripped, he slashed a few of my fingers off and finished me, or else forced me away from Ramirez long enough to double-team him and kill him. I couldn't sling magic at him, either. His back was to the crowd of vampires and the human victims shielding them, and he was damned fast. Anything I could throw that would have hurt him could miss—and if it missed, it'd kill anyone who got in the way.
I couldn't take my eyes off Vitto for a second—I had to hope that Ramirez was holding his own against Madrigal. I had to buy time and distance. I slammed will and Hellfire through my staff, snarled, "Forzare!" and released it in a broad wave that lashed out into absolutely everything in front of me.
The wave of force caught Vitto and flung him from his feet. He hit a brawny thrall with a neatly clipped goatee, and then the wave caught up and struck the man, too, as well as the folk on either side of him. They were flung back into the second row of kneeling thralls, and they, in turn, were all bowled back into the crowd of vampires behind them, to a general scream of surprise and dismay.
It hadn't been a lot of force by the time it got to the thralls, not all spread out like that. I could have delivered tackles that hit harder. It had been enough, though, to tangle Vitto—whose leg was still on fire, by the way—in a pile of courtiers and thralls.
"Welcome, ladies and gentlemen," I hollered, "to Bowling for Vampires!"
To my intense discomfort, a round of laughs went up from the Raith contingent, and I got a smattering of applause. I raised my shield again, into a shimmering half dome of glittering silver and blue light this time, and twisted my head around to look for Ramirez.

I turned in time to see Madrigal, bleeding from several gunshot wounds, rush forward, spear held high. Ramirez had fallen to one knee, his wounded leg unable to support his weight, and as I watched he dropped the Desert Eagle and gathered another bolt of disintegrating emerald force in his right hand.
Madrigal laughed at him, the sound silvery and scornful, and now that he was in motion I could see the chromium glitter of the demonic Hunger in his eyes. His protective armbands flickered brightly as he rushed forward.
"Ramirez!" I screamed.
Madrigal raised the spear.
Ramirez flung the gathered energy in a last useless strike… that missed Madrigal entirety and splashed on the stone at his feet.
A section of stone the size of a big bathtub glowed green for a split second, then shattered into dust so fine that its individual grains would be almost invisible to the naked eye.
Just as my average preparation session for a fight does not involve considering twelve-foot kung fu leaps from knife-throwing masters, I guess Madrigal's practices didn't take into account floors that might suddenly become pools of nearly frictionless dust. He let out a shriek and plunged into it, flailing wildly. I could see the wheels spinning in his head, trying to work out what had happened and how the hell he would get out of it.
Ramirez shot a look over his shoulder and snarled, "Harry!"
The fingers of my right hand were tingling. I raised it, clenching it into a weak fist. It was good enough to align the rings with my thoughts. "Go!"
Madrigal had worked it out. He thrashed to one side of the trough Ramirez's spell had eaten in the floor, thrust the handle of his spear down into the ultrafine dust, and shoved himself roughly up and out of the sand trap.
But not before Ramirez drew the silver Warden's blade from his hip, the sword designed to let the Wardens of the White Council slice into any enchantment, unraveling it with a single stroke. Carlos drew it, lunged out onto his wounded leg with a cry of pain and challenge, and sliced the willow blade left and right at Madrigal while the spear was grounded and locked into place, supporting him.
The sword cut through the wooden haft of the spear, snicker-snack, which was itself an indicator of just how unbelievably sharp an edge it had to have carried. Luccio did good work. That was just collateral damage, though.
The Warden blade also licked lightly across each of Madrigal's arms.
The black cloth armbands erupted into sudden flame, the embroidered symbols on them flaring into painfully brilliant light, as if the scarlet thread had been made of magnesium. Any construct that held enough energy to counteract the magic of a major-league wizard, especially a combat specialist like Ramirez, had to have been holding all kinds of energy. Ramirez had just cut it loose.
Madrigal stared down in sudden panic at the fire writhing up his arms and let out a horrified scream.
I crouched, clenched my fist a little tighter, narrowed my eyes, and with a single thought released every bit of energy in the rings—what had been left over after the ghoul attack and what I had added later, all at the same time.
The power hit Madrigal low in the belly, at a slightly upward angle. It slammed him from his feet as the fire blazed over his arms, lifted him up over the heads of the gathered Raith contingent like a living, sizzling comet, and slammed him into the cavern wall behind them with literally bone-shattering power.
Broken, bleeding wreckage tumbled limply down.
"And the wizards," I snarled, "pick up the spare."
I turned back to face Vitto, who was only then clawing his way out of a pile of confused and unhappy Skavis and Malvora vampires and meekly passive thralls. He came to his feet with his sword in hand.
I faced him through the glowing dome. I heard a grunt, and then Ramirez stepped up beside me, silver sword in hand, still stained with Madrigal's pinkish blood, his staff in the other, taking some of the weight from his injured foot. I kept the dome up, recovered my blasting rod, and raised it, calling up my will, letting fire illuminate the runes carved down its length one sigil at a time. The new shield was more taxing than the old, and I was getting tired—but there was nothing to do about that but keep going.
There were rustling sounds all around us. Vampires came to their feet. They edged closer to the thralls, shifted position so that they would be able to see. There were murmurs and whispers all around us as the White Court sensed that the end was near. Vitto's aunt was not far from him, and she stood with one hand to her delicate throat—but she stood fast, watching, anxiety and calculation warring for space in her eyes. Just over one shoulder, I could just barely make out Lara's profile as she leaned forward over the thrall kneeling between her and the fight—Justine—to watch the end, her lips parted and glistening wet, her eyes glowing.
The spectacle of it sickened me, but I thought I understood something of what triggered it in them.
Death did not come swiftly to vampires—but the old Reaper was in the house, and when he struck, he would take lives that should have lasted for centuries more. That realization let me understand something else about the White Court—that for all of their allure, that forbidden attraction, the unnatural magnetism of a creature so beautiful outside and so twisted within, with their ability to give you the greatest pleasure of your life, even as they snuffed it out—they, the vampires themselves, were not immune to that dark attraction.
They were regular, near-eternal voyeurs to death's handiwork, after all. They saw the mingled ecstasy and terror on the faces of those they took. They fed upon the surrender of life and passion to the endless silence—knowing, all the while, that in the end, they were no different. One day, one night, it would be their turn to face the scythe and the dark cowl, and that they would fall, fall just as helplessly as their own prey had, over and over and over.
Death had already taken Madrigal Raith. And it would soon take Vitto Malvora. And the White Court, one and all, longed to see it happen, to feel Death brush close by, to be tantalized by its nearness, to revel in its presence and passing.
Words could not express how badly they needed therapy.
Dysfunctional sickos.
I put it out of my head. I still had work to do.
"All right," I growled to Ramirez. "You ready?"
He bared his teeth in a ferocious smile. "Let's get it on."
Vitto Malvora, the last of Anna's killers, faced me steadily, his eyes gone white. I thought that for a man about to face two fairly deadly wizards determined to kill him, he did not look terribly frightened.
In fact, he looked… pleased.
Oh, crap.
Vitto threw back his head and spread his arms.
I dropped the shield and shouted, "Kill him!"
Vitto lifted his voice in a sudden, thunderous roar, and I could sense the will and the power that underlay his call. "MASTER!"
Ramirez was a beat slow in transferring his sword to his other hand so that he could fling green fire at Vitto, and the vampire lowered his arms and crossed them in front of him, hissing words in some strange tongue as he did. Ramirez's strike shattered upon that defense, though bits of greenish fire dribbled onto Vitto's arms, each of them chewing out a scoop of flesh as far across as a nickel.

I expect that it's because there are costs involved in using Whampire magic. Imagine if we needed to torture someone to death in order to regain essence. Even if we had absolutely no problems with torturing people to death we still wouldn't use essanse much because of the logistical load of constantly torturing people to death.

So every time we see white Court vampires use their magic there is a lot of background finding victims, harvesting and cover ups that we don't see. It's a bit like how tanks are really amazing and can do a lot of stuff, but if you use a tank to drive everywhere you are quickly going to go broke.
Unlike Reds, and definitely unlike Blacks, Whites can generally feed without killing, or even crippling their victims, as long as they maintain sufficient intervals in between encounters with the same person.

A Raith can sustain multiple sex partners and spread out their feeding over multiple people without issue besides the fact that feeding on one person makes it easier to call that person back to you.
It really isnt anywhere as obvious an issue for them as it is for the other Courts.

Think of it this way:
You're a Raith, and you pick up singles, or hire an escort service with professionals. Two to three partners at a time.
Expensive, but you're a Raith; you're rich AND attractive.
Malvora can basically camp out in horror movie theaters at will. Or roller coasters. Any activity that terrifies its participants.

Skavis are the ones with the most feeding issues.
Despair is not exactly a renewable resource the way the others are.
 
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We arent about to start going after mundane but distasteful White Court operations like their night clubs and porn studios, any more than we are currently going after the Marcone brothels health clubs we already know exist in Chicago.
Like the one Helen Beckitt runs.
I'm not interested in going after businesses, I'm fundamentally interested in going after older White Court Vampires, no matter what they might be doing currently.
Everyone who gets old as a vampire has enough skeletons in the basement to deserve a hellfire-blade to the heart.

Bodhisattvas are believed to obtain communion with the spirit worlds, with ascended Kuei-Jin and even Yama Kings.
Most are supposed to have withdrawn from society, to live as ascetics in the wilderness or in isolated communities. They are canonically revered, and can move large sections of their society.

One showing up in Chicago would be a major event, not just because of their personal power, but because of the social power they wield in Kuei-Jin society, meaning they can call on supernatural nationstate resources.

So if OldSkavis is serious in calling us a buddha, or even along the lines of an ancestor or mandarin?
He's going to be calling a lot of people after he gets out of here.
Keep in mind that an outsider propably can't tell an Ancestor from a Bodhisattva, at least not without a fight that forces the Wan Kuei to go all out and reveal his actual strenght.

Just like we couldn't say for sure if Old Skavis here is an Elder or a Methuselah without testing it. Though circumstantial evidence makes it much less likely for him to be as big a deal as the latter.

Oh and for the second part about their ressources, not all elder Wan Kuei are necessarily part of their major court-system, there are Heretical Dharmas and Akuma. So far Skavis has seen us acting alone and in a relativly weird manner for an old vamp, that does not exactly say we are here on official business from the East.

[X] Yog

In the end I think giving the vamps anything more than the tip of our blade is a mistake.
 
A Raith can sustain multiple sex partners and spread out their feeding over multiple people without issue besides the fact that feeding on one person makes it easier to call that person back to you.
It really isnt anywhere as obvious an issue for them as it is for the other Courts.

Think of it this way:
You're a Raith, and you pick up singles, or hire an escort service with professionals. Two to three partners at a time.
Expensive, but you're a Raith; you're rich AND attractive.
It's still a logistically drain to manage. The money doesn't appear out of no where also the Thomas and family are examples of the most successful whites in America. It seems unreasonable to expect every other lust white to have as easy a time of it.

Or maybe I should put it another way. The department of defense can tax people without killing them. Taxes are a renewable resource. Flying fighter jets is still expensive.
 
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Thats not how True Names work. At all.

Your True Name is your full name as received from your mouth, and undergoes change as you accumulate life experience. Molly Carpenter is not our True Name. Margaret Katherine Amanda Carpenter used to be our Name before we Exalted.
Now, it has probably changed quite a bit. And will keep changing.

And that assumes that True Names work against Infernals and their native countermagic.

Harry Dresden's name is in the phone book, and his full name is in the system.
Nicodemus Archleone and his entire family go by their names. So do the Angels, both Fallen and loyalists. Mab is Mab's name. Its not her full Name, but its part of it. All the Senior Council go by their birth names. I could go on.

Giving out your name is not just polite, its accepted practice.
Parts of one's True Name heard from one's lips are mystically significant too - Dresden used those to bargain with demons he summoned in early books. Mab is Mab's name, and can be used to summon her. In the end of the first book Harry narrates his full name and says "conjure by it at your own risk". There are risks invovled in doing so with powerful divine-ish entities. Which is why not giving out our name with our own voice is a matter of safety not just for us, but for those who have a chance to use it.
 
I'm not interested in going after businesses, I'm fundamentally interested in going after older White Court Vampires, no matter what they might be doing currently.
Everyone who gets old as a vampire has enough skeletons in the basement to deserve a hellfire-blade to the heart.
I have no interest in starting a war because they must have skeletons in their closet to live that long.
If we were working off that criteria we would be at war with the White Council, just based on the record of the Blackstaff.
And they wouldnt be the only ones.

Needless to say, I find that a remarkably counterproductive strategy.
But we can agree to disagree.
Keep in mind that an outsider propably can't tell an Ancestor from a Bodhisattva, at least not without a fight that forces the Wan Kuei to go all out and reveal his actual strenght.

Just like we couldn't say for sure if Old Skavis here is an Elder or a Methuselah without testing it. Though circumstantial evidence makes it much less likely for him to be as big a deal as the latter.

Oh and for the second part about their ressources, not all elder Wan Kuei are necessarily part of their major court-system, there are Heretical Dharmas and Akuma. So far Skavis has seen us acting alone and in a relativly weird manner for an old vamp, that does not exactly say we are here on official business from the East.
No idea.
Like I said, OldSkavis only started calling us bodhittsava after he rolled 4 successes on watching our aura with Auspex.
Thats just one short of Legendary. We dont know what he saw.

Elders of Heretical Dharmas are few and far between according to the sourcbook; dunno how they are treated
Akuma, as in proper akuma, means that the Yomi Kings are taking a hand.
And explicitly flock together according to the sourcebook, so if you saw one, you're going to see many.

Needless to say, not an improvement.
In the end I think giving the vamps anything more than the tip of our blade is a mistake
Better start with Thomas then.
:p
It's still a logistically drain to manage. The money doesn't appear out of no where also the Thomas and family are examples of the most successful whites in America. It seems unreasonable to expect every other lust white to have as easy a time of it.
Not especially.
If you're a Raith, you can join a swinger's club if you're desperate. Or just frequent bars to pick up women(and men).
Good looking people can run up an ungodly bodycount without magic in the modern day, as long as they arent too picky.

The Whites are big on soft power, internally and externally.
Access to the family fortunes and resources is one of the ways they maintain control of the young ones.

Besides, we literally see Thomas go from security guard to small business owner on hard work, charm and appearance. In less than a year. Its not really that unreasonable afaik.
We've literally never seen a poor White in canon.

Parts of one's True Name heard from one's lips are mystically significant too - Dresden used those to bargain with demons he summoned in early books. Mab is Mab's name, and can be used to summon her. In the end of the first book Harry narrates his full name and says "conjure by it at your own risk". There are risks invovled in doing so with powerful divine-ish entities. Which is why not giving out our name with our own voice is a matter of safety not just for us, but for those who have a chance to use it.
Yes. His Name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden.

Harry Dresden isnt his Name. And mortal Names change with life experience; thats why, despite having Elaine's Name from her own lips, and having a history of intimacy, Dresden had to have met her again after almost two decades and done some magical extrapolation work in order to send her a mental message she would hear.


Mab's Name can be used to summon her.
Mab, however, is NOT her full Name; might not even be her birthname. At best, its a fragment. When you call Mab, its a request, not a compulsion, one she may choose to answer or ignore. Just like when Dresden called the Leanansidhe its a request, not a compulsion.

Seriously, if it was that easy the Fallen would essentially run things.
Just by using Divination.
And Molly would be useless as a Winter Lady in canon.
 
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Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 25, 2023 at 1:11 AM, finished with 81 posts and 16 votes.

  • [X] Be honest as far as it goes, as long as she obeys you
    -[X] Explain who you are
    [X] Your hunger is merely forestalled for the duration of your service. To tame it, it must be sated with a mortal life's worth of essence... through there is no requirement to partake from one who contains merely one lifetime's worth. I must admit curiosity as to what you will choose - few of the Hungry can say their soul is yet unstained by murder.
    -[X] Should she make use the gifts her hunger grants her, she would not lose control, but would need to replenish the energy expended
    -[X] Get her e-mail address and phone number, and give her a burner e-mail to contact you in exchange
    -[X] STUNT: "Your hunger is merely forestalled for the duration of your service. To tame it, it must be sated with a mortal life's worth of essence... through there is no requirement to partake from one who contains merely one lifetime's worth. I must admit curiosity as to what you will choose - few of the Hungry can say their soul is yet unstained by murder". You fish out Clippy from your pocket, moving it in such a way to make sure that the faces of the vampires are caught in their lenses: "Now, what e-mail and phone number can I use to contact you later? I feel we should talk more when after you had time to process. And to keep you, and more importantly, your hunger, occupied, I give you this command - prepare for our next meeting. Learn of the supernatural. Meditate on what path you wish to follow. Do your homework."
    [X] Your hunger is merely forestalled for the duration of your service. To tame it, it must be sated with a mortal life's worth of chi... through there is no requirement to partake from one who contains merely one lifetime's worth. I must admit curiosity as to what you will choose - few of the Hungry can say their soul is yet unstained by murder.
 
Celerity is not just raw speed; it is also finesse and coordination, dots 6+ particularly so. At higher dots, Disciplines get flexible.

I guess it could be some sort of whamp version of horrid form if we take that whole "white skin, glowing eyes" thing not just as generic indications of lots of power being used but as a indication of some sort of scenelong warform, but idk.

Flower of Death + scenelong variant of Perfect Parry would do just fine, if we are treating Lara and Thomas as elders. Which is prolly appropriate tbh.
 
Better start with Thomas then.
Thomas has kept out of Vampire politics and family-business as far as he could without dying.

That is not the same as a vampire who kills witnesses as a favor to another vamp.

I see a very obvious difference between someone who is willing to kill to be and remain a big shot in the White Court's internal hierarchy and someone who tries to stay away from all that.

And funny enough, every vampire involved with human trafficking is likely in the former category.
 
Celerity is not just raw speed; it is also finesse and coordination, dots 6+ particularly so. At higher dots, Disciplines get flexible.

I guess it could be some sort of whamp version of horrid form if we take that whole "white skin, glowing eyes" thing not just as generic indications of lots of power being used but as a indication of some sort of scenelong warform, but idk.

Flower of Death + scenelong variant of Perfect Parry would do just fine, if we are treating Lara and Thomas as elders. Which is prolly appropriate tbh.
I'm really not willing to treat Thomas as an Elder.
He's around 40 years old and stayed below his father's radar for most of that time.

He might be something of a natural talent at Celerity and Potence, but I would never give him Celerity 6 Powers, nevermind a scenelong auto-parry like he is some kind of Solar.

I'd much prefer to read that part as just what happens when a Whampire is running hot, spending several bloodpoints per round.
Intense use of Celerity and Potence, nothing more.
 
I'm really not willing to treat Thomas as an Elder. He's around 40 years old and stayed below his father's radar for most of that time.
He does manage to keep up with Lara, so he just hid a lot of his ability, apparently.

But perhaps I got a little trigger happy with assigning 6+ dots like they are a basic requirement to do anything impressive.
 
Votes tied.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jan 25, 2023 at 2:16 AM, finished with 87 posts and 17 votes.

  • [X] Be honest as far as it goes, as long as she obeys you
    -[X] Explain who you are
    [X] Your hunger is merely forestalled for the duration of your service. To tame it, it must be sated with a mortal life's worth of essence... through there is no requirement to partake from one who contains merely one lifetime's worth. I must admit curiosity as to what you will choose - few of the Hungry can say their soul is yet unstained by murder.
    -[X] Should she make use the gifts her hunger grants her, she would not lose control, but would need to replenish the energy expended
    -[X] Get her e-mail address and phone number, and give her a burner e-mail to contact you in exchange
    -[X] STUNT: "Your hunger is merely forestalled for the duration of your service. To tame it, it must be sated with a mortal life's worth of essence... through there is no requirement to partake from one who contains merely one lifetime's worth. I must admit curiosity as to what you will choose - few of the Hungry can say their soul is yet unstained by murder". You fish out Clippy from your pocket, moving it in such a way to make sure that the faces of the vampires are caught in their lenses: "Now, what e-mail and phone number can I use to contact you later? I feel we should talk more when after you had time to process. And to keep you, and more importantly, your hunger, occupied, I give you this command - prepare for our next meeting. Learn of the supernatural. Meditate on what path you wish to follow. Do your homework."
    [X] Your hunger is merely forestalled for the duration of your service. To tame it, it must be sated with a mortal life's worth of chi... through there is no requirement to partake from one who contains merely one lifetime's worth. I must admit curiosity as to what you will choose - few of the Hungry can say their soul is yet unstained by murder.
 
Celerity is not just raw speed; it is also finesse and coordination, dots 6+ particularly so. At higher dots, Disciplines get flexible.
I guess it could be some sort of whamp version of horrid form if we take that whole "white skin, glowing eyes" thing not just as generic indications of lots of power being used but as a indication of some sort of scenelong warform, but idk.

Flower of Death + scenelong variant of Perfect Parry would do just fine, if we are treating Lara and Thomas as elders. Which is prolly appropriate tbh.
I would assume they count as elders.
If only because they got the benefit of magical genetics.
Thomas has kept out of Vampire politics and family-business as far as he could without dying.
That is not the same as a vampire who kills witnesses as a favor to another vamp.

I see a very obvious difference between someone who is willing to kill to be and remain a big shot in the White Court's internal hierarchy and someone who tries to stay away from all that.

And funny enough, every vampire involved with human trafficking is likely in the former category.
Which doesnt prevent him from having a significant bodycount, as a Whampire raised by a sexually abused Whampire in a Whampire home.

I mean, he's True Venatori. A supernatural assassin.
Its literally his job to kill people in order to prevent them spreading word of the Old Ones.
And I am pretty sure not all of those are cackling evil Pathfinder style goons.

I'm really not willing to treat Thomas as an Elder. He's around 40 years old and stayed below his father's radar for most of that time.
He might be something of a natural talent at Celerity and Potence, but I would never give him Celerity 6 Powers, nevermind a scenelong auto-parry like he is some kind of Solar.
I'd much prefer to read that part as just what happens when a Whampire is running hot, spending several bloodpoints per round.
Intense use of Celerity and Potence, nothing more.
Magical genetics + sandbagging.
See Harry Dresden, and being top 50 in magical strength in the world before he hit 30.

Thomas' powers from what Molly has seen of him fighting in Arctis Tor fall short of elder, though he makes up for it with quite a bit of raw skill and natural talent for the sword,
I dont know how magical genetics works in the OG Dresdenverse, let alone in this Quest
But its still happens that Thomas is the grandson of a Senior Council member, and the son of Maggie Le Fay and the Pale King
His pedigree, such as it is, is very good.

He does manage to keep up with Lara, so he just hid a lot of his ability, apparently.
But perhaps I got a little trigger happy with assigning 6+ dots like they are a basic requirement to do anything impressive.
^^^
Lara is the current de facto Pale Queen, and Thomas can keep up with her in melee with an oncomimg horde of regenerating superghouls who had just killed a bunch of Whampire elders. Thomas also killed at least one Denarian in melee in Small Favor, with either his saber or a kukri. And he didnt count it as a particularly tough fight.

I'll see if I can find the quote.
I probably should vote for something, but... Eh.
Vote for me and get one internet cookie
:V
 
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