Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Added a another charm to the hell of the third act breakdown

We aren't so different you and I (•)
The Infernal knows what makes them tick and by extension what makes others tick. It takes one to know one.
System:
Whenever the Infernal does a read intentions check if the target shares any intimacies with the Infernal the Infernal automatically learns of them. When targeting those shared intimacies in social combat the Infernal may pay one essence after rolling to double the number of successes.

@DragonParadox : Might I ask that we gain access to the Hell of the third act breakdown if we manage to beat Nikodemus in social combat? He is exactly the sort of person that would end up in that hell.
 
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Added a another charm to the hell of the third act breakdown

We aren't so different you and I (•)
The Infernal knows what makes them tick and by extension what makes others tick. It takes one to know one.
System:
Whenever the Infernal does a read intentions check if the target shares any intimacies with the Infernal the Infernal automatically learns of them. When targeting those intimacies in social combat the Infernal may pay one essence after rolling to double the number of successes.

@DragonParadox : Might I ask that we gain access to the Hell of the third act breakdown if we manage to beat Nikodemus in social combat? He is exactly the sort of person that would end up in that hell.

If you guys actually beat Nick in Social Combat you will deserve something big that's for sure
 
I don't feel like hiding our light under a bushel. It's skill not any sort of unnatural mental influence and we have learned our lesson about aiming for good outcomes when we live in a world of cardboard.
I see where you're coming from, but I feel slightly differently about things.

It's not overt mind magic, and I wouldn't say they're the same, but people are significantly more programmable than we like to think. You don't need supernatural power to take someone apart and put them back together again in a more useful shape; see cult recruitment tactics and similar stuff for examples.

Using social excellencies is mostly fine in my book, but specifically going out of the way to choose for people because we know better is exactly the problem that caused Molly so much grief. One of her key character struggles is stepping away from acting like her own mother and dealing with her control issues.

We could instead choose to roll with the lesson that the problem isn't what she did so much as that she was bad at it, but I think that's a poor lesson to take.

Firstly because we can't actually know everything about someone at a glance, and with 5+ successes we could be doing things that influence them for the rest of their lives.

Secondly because exaltations make you convincing, but they don't make you wise. Any premeditated campaign to help by super socialing people to be 'better' is changing them to suit our tastes and not necessarily towards something that's good for them or anyone else.

There's a difference between using them as we do stuff and seeking conditions where we can leverage them against people purely for a moral crusade.
Great quest!
Had a very enjoyable time catching up.

Now on to the vote:
Molly is an Exalted. An important thing about the Exalted is that they were always meant to be generals, leaders, and not to act alone.
Here we have Molly's friends, who could be better candidates to include in whatever Molly/the questers will be building in the future.

[x] Yog
They're so low on the food chain they're basically empty calories for most supernaturals.

We have allies and minions to lead, these guys are probably at best just as survivable as random people drawn off the street.
 
Yeah. We definitely would need a lot of prep work to attempt that. But it would be well worth it in the end, I feel. If nothing else, even assuming there's not treasure, the corpse itself is treasure enough. A Dragon zombie raised by an exalt would be a superb guardian (and would probably qualify for "carriage of the Ankou" summoning if Lydia ever needs the "Summon Biggest Fish" power).
Note that a Dragon zombie is the body of something sapient, and will likely be regarded with the same sense of desecration as humans regard zombies made of human corpses.
In this case that includes other capital-D Dragons.

The juice is unlikely to be worth the squeeze due to ethical and reputational concerns.
Even though a Dragon would be awesome.

That will be next update. I thought about doing it before the turn end, but there just wasn't a lot of narrative space and it would have felt rushed. This way I can cover it in a reasonable span with follow-ups as needed
Fair enough.
Ouch. Dude was being performatively assholish, but I still feel bad about breaking him like that; Molly unwittingly struck a trauma.
And the way he broke down, coupled with the brief history Molly gave of him going from school band to swimming and the performative assholery, points at serious home issues he's trying to compensate for with external validation.

Hmm. Friends.
Talking to them is risky, but probably less so than leaving them in ignorance.
We really do need to take the time for a crafting project to support BSM at some point. Upgrading Ebon Scales to contain unscented oil of some kind doesn't seem that hard relative to the other material science nonsense Molly has pulled so far.
Thats the providence of magic crafting, and we dont have that yet.

If we tell them we're just going to cause a lot of stress for little true benefit to anyone. It'd add a lot of anxiety to their lives, and might be actively dangerous.
Unless you want us to cut them off completely, they are already in that line of fire by being in Molly's circle.
See the Carpenter home invasion literally two months ago.
Not believing in the supernatural doesnt mean it doesnt believe in you.

And Yog is right that we need mortal associates that arent family.

My problem is, you are telling a bunch of teens that Magic is real, that their friend is Magic Girl Sailor Nuclear Hellfire and there is a whole world of magic out there. Then you say, "Sorry you need to be this tall to ride" when they obviously ask for lessons/power.

I do not see any world where it does not end well. Even without the magic, denying anything to people. let alone teens is just going to make them want it more. Either from us, or from bad sources, given how dangerous the magic world is and no amount of warning is going to help.
You are missing the point. If you do that they will end up jumping head first into the nevernever.
They are not mindless automatons with no thoughts and initiative outside of Molly.
They are teens and are going to make some stupid decisions. Not a question of if but when.
Not actually true. Plenty of teenagers dont do drugs, or attempt to join a gang for the thrills.
Lots of kids see the athletic types getting popularity and attention, but dont resort to performance enhancing drugs
Teenagers do make stupid decisions, but information does help.

And like I pointed out earlier they are already in the line of fire. If we have the Johnny-come-lately noobs Daedalus sending our name up the chain as a possible Investiture holder to the Library people, you can be reasonably sure that everyone capable is building a dossier on us and our known associates mortal and otherwise.

And given that our family is Protected, the method du jour to come at us is via our friends.
Murphy not knowing about Blampires didnt stop Mavra setting up a situation where she would get blackmail information on her and use that to pressure Dresden.

Izzy and Alec are the weak link here. Saying nothing does not prevent Daedalus pulling the two of them into an interrogation room for a "you're not under arrest, we just want to talk to you about your friend." discussion. Or a fae talking them into agreeing to stuff whose implications they dont grok. Or worse.

Leaving them unaware doesnt make them safer. They need a supernatural equivalent of The Talk.
 
I see where you're coming from, but I feel slightly differently about things.

It's not overt mind magic, and I wouldn't say they're the same, but people are significantly more programmable than we like to think. You don't need supernatural power to take someone apart and put them back together again in a more useful shape; see cult recruitment tactics and similar stuff for examples.

Using social excellencies is mostly fine in my book, but specifically going out of the way to choose for people because we know better is exactly the problem that caused Molly so much grief. One of her key character struggles is stepping away from acting like her own mother and dealing with her control issues.

We could instead choose to roll with the lesson that the problem isn't what she did so much as that she was bad at it, but I think that's a poor lesson to take.

Firstly because we can't actually know everything about someone at a glance, and with 5+ successes we could be doing things that influence them for the rest of their lives.

Secondly because exaltations make you convincing, but they don't make you wise. Any premeditated campaign to help by super socialing people to be 'better' is changing them to suit our tastes and not necessarily towards something that's good for them or anyone else.

There's a difference between using them as we do stuff and seeking conditions where we can leverage them against people purely for a moral crusade.
We are mostly be going to be using empathy as our primary social stat. So our skill is going to be based on a understanding of the people we are talking to.
They're so low on the food chain they're basically empty calories for most supernaturals.

We have allies and minions to lead, these guys are probably at best just as survivable as random people drawn off the street.
Less. Guys on the street average 5 willpower.
 
They're so low on the food chain they're basically empty calories for most supernaturals.

We have allies and minions to lead, these guys are probably at best just as survivable as random people drawn off the street.
It has been a while since I played Exalted, but I do remember how my Twilight trained up a local militia from mortals to elite force in just a few months (I think to the point they were able to use some terrestrial martial arts, not quite sure about this anymore, though). I would not be able to list all the necessary charms anymore, but it was by the rules as written with no homebrew, starting with barely trained mortals with them becoming an asset instead of a liability in exalted level combat in the end.
 
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Izzy, say, recognizing a white court vamp in a food court and failing the rolls to conceal that fact could easily be the last mistake she makes.
Not actually how it works.
Whampires dont go around killing people who recognize them for what they are. Why should they? Who are they going to tell?
They arent Reds or Blacks. They can pass for fully human.

Furthermore, its hard to notice a Whampire passing incognito.
Dresden didnt recognize Inari Raith as a Whampire fledgeling in Blood Rites. Didnt recognize Darby Crane/Madrigal Raith as a Whampire in Proven Guilty. Didnt recognize the Skavis as a Whampire in White Night.

If the wizard with a Whampire half-brother cant tell, I guarantee the mortal kid cant.
 
VOTE
[x] Find a private place and just show Izzy and Alec your Crown, time to pull back the veil. A little knowledge is more dangerous than none at all


Dresden is straightforward about the supernatural existing.
He doesnt give details unless he really trusts you and thinks you need the knowledge, but he is pretty upfront with about magic being a thing. He literally has pamphlets in his office.

Seems a decent model to follow with our friends.
We are an Infernal with Char 3, Empathy 4, Excellency 7. We should be able to find a convincing medium between providing enough information for a frame of reference, and not running our mouth too much.
 
If you guys actually beat Nick in Social Combat you will deserve something big that's for sure
"We aren't so different you and I. Dad is great at inspiring people's better nature, but you and me know how to manipulate people's darkness. But there is a difference between us. Mainly that I am far better at it even with all your experience and expert tutelage and I am nowhere near my peak Anduriel would drop you for me in a hot second."

Molly holds out her hand uses Mind-Hand Manipulation (••) Anduriel's coin flys into her hand. Molly resists passively Impervious Primacy Mantle (•••) and her intimacy with her father.

"Of course I have no need for him."

Then Molly cuts the coinless Nicodemus to pieces.

I don't think it would be that easy, but that would be very satisfying.
 
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[x] Find a private place and just show Izzy and Alec your Crown, time to pull back the veil. A little knowledge is more dangerous than none at all
 
Thats the providence of magic crafting, and we dont have that yet.
We just need to be covered in a liquid, lining Ebon Scales with absorbent cloth shouldn't require being an enchanter.
Unless you want us to cut them off completely, they are already in that line of fire by being in Molly's circle.
See the Carpenter home invasion literally two months ago.
Not believing in the supernatural doesnt mean it doesnt believe in you.

And Yog is right that we need mortal associates that arent family.
They're not the juiciest targets though, and telling them solves nothing.

They are also too weak to defend themselves against anything and we can't actually changes that yet. A white court vamp could walk off with them tomorrow and there isn't anything to be done about it unless we put them in a bunker until we can convert them to demonic cyborgs or whatever.

If we had a solution to bring them in on that'd be one thing, but this doesn't actually accomplish anything.

It's a feel good illusion of progress where we get to feel nice about being honest and they get to live in mortal terror until we do what we should be trying anyway if we want to keep them around and find a way to make them less vulnerable.

We are mostly be going to be using empathy as our primary social stat. So our skill is going to be based on a understanding of the people we are talking to.
Doesn't make us perfectly insightful or out ideas perfectly suited for them. It also doesn't give us the right to make all those changes over their objections.

Spontaneous social combat is one thing, but premeditated campaigns to push everyone in the direction we want crosses a line somewhere.

It has been a while since I played Exalted, but I do remember how my Twilight trained up a local militia from mortals to elite force in just a few months (I think to the point they were able to use some terrestrial martial arts, not quite sure about this anymore, though). I would not be able to list all the necessary charms anymore, but it was by the rules as written with no homebrew, starting with barely trained mortals with them becoming an asset instead of a liability in exalted level combat in the end.
The only training charm we can buy from the ExWoD set (which we're limited to for the foreseeable future) involves baked in personality editing.

We could also use one of the bakemono charms, but those are described in terms like "unspeakably painful" and involve getting nearly random abilities and drawbacks.

Sometimes really nasty ones like having toggleable comic book acid spit that you aren't immune to. We also lack control over the details of the process for the most part.*

We have another charm that turns that off, but it requires their faithful and explicit subordination.

We could cook something up with homebrew, careful VEE wishes, and possibly enchantments, but we can't even really begin on any of that stuff right now.

Which is why I view this as pointless. We probably won't have the bad options for IC months if we were inclined to use them, and if we want the less awful ones we'll likely need more time than that.

* With the exception of the variant that uses cyborg conversion as the basis for the charm. There's some relationship between procedure and supernatural consequences, but it'd also involve us cutting off and replacing body parts and still have the bakemono flaw baked in.

Not actually how it works.
Whampires dont go around killing people who recognize them for what they are. Why should they? Who are they going to tell?
They arent Reds or Blacks. They can pass for fully human.

Furthermore, its hard to notice a Whampire passing incognito.
Dresden didnt recognize Inari Raith as a Whampire fledgeling in Blood Rites. Didnt recognize Darby Crane/Madrigal Raith as a Whampire in Proven Guilty. Didnt recognize the Skavis as a Whampire in White Night.

If the wizard with a Whampire half-brother cant tell, I guarantee the mortal kid cant.
I don't expect them to get hunted down to keep her quiet, but being interesting makes you more likely to be targeted.

It was more an illustration of that fact than anything else.

Your point about the white court plays into my broader argument though. These kids are likely to be shit.

Either they can't see through things being subtle and are therefore no more safe than they already were or they can for some edge case and they have to avoid drawing attention while managing it.

The only general advice we could give would be to avoid certain areas or activities, but that sort of stuff is baked in to a lot of stranger danger people already get. Mortals are ignorant, but they don't lack pattern recognition.

Telling them to avoid the undertown, especially at night, or whatever isn't new or helpful information.
 
You guys could sell the subordination from Mercy in Servitude as 'I can give you superpowers, but you have to be part of my superhero team or they will have side effects.' If you go with the Kakuri charm you even have a way out for them that can be, if Molly so chooses, 100% painless.
 
I don't really buy it. For one thing, Molly has her family for this. Charity's willpower memes aside, Micheal is the best person in the world for the role of going "remember thou art mortal" when Molly gets going too hard.
Those are parents, not social peers. Not people our own age, of generally our generation and social strata. Lydia doesn't work - too different background. Rosie works badly - too damaged. Our siblings might work, but they are siblings, not friends. We need mortal friends. Someone to joke with, to go to a party with, to talk comics, and music, and video games with.

Note that a Dragon zombie is the body of something sapient, and will likely be regarded with the same sense of desecration as humans regard zombies made of human corpses.
In this case that includes other capital-D Dragons.

The juice is unlikely to be worth the squeeze due to ethical and reputational concerns.
Even though a Dragon would be awesome.
I am fairly sure that Lydia's charm raised zombies would be very different to those raised via mortal necromancy. I mean, Odin't Einherjar are also zombies. She would be using her divine right and ancestry to call someone to serve, not desecrating the natural order of things. We shall investigate first, but I wouldn't dismiss the notion out of hand.
 
They won't be more safe knowing about the dangers out there directly, but not less either.
And at least they'll know to call Molly if something weird is going on. That may or maynot be fast enough to help, but it's far better than nothing.
 
Then Molly cuts the coinless Nicodemus to pieces.
Nicodemius wears the Judas' noose as a tie, which grants him invulnerability from everything but being strangeld by said noose. It wouldn't be this easy. And the coin likely has the same "is very hard to be parted with, except willingly" power as the Swords do.

Depending on Nicodemius's motivation (which is... hard for me to grasp, based on the books), we might try to convince him to flip on the angels, if we prove to him that we would be a greater backer than they can be.
 
Those are parents, not social peers. Not people our own age, of generally our generation and social strata. Lydia doesn't work - too different background. Rosie works badly - too damaged. Our siblings might work, but they are siblings, not friends. We need mortal friends. Someone to joke with, to go to a party with, to talk comics, and music, and video games with.
I have some disagreements with your fundamental assumptions but setting those aside to avoid getting circular, this doesn't address one of the bigger points I've been making.

If you're going to bring them in, why do so in a way that'll make them miserable? We could just fly under the radar and come back to this when we have a power up that doesn't suck to hand out with it. Instead of leaving them to stew on helplessness that we can barely do anything about for months.
 
[x] Yog

As appropriate as it might be, when we make our own hell, I would rather we not sit upon a throne of lies. When we say, "People should know about the hidden dangers of the world, knowledge is power", then we need to actually follow through with that.
 
[X] Dress up some of the truth in more mundane guise, talk about Lydia, the Order, taming lessons from Harry
 
We just need to be covered in a liquid, lining Ebon Scales with absorbent cloth shouldn't require being an enchanter.
Ebon Scales is explicitly light enough and thin enough to be worn under normal clothes as an undergarment.
Absorbent material to hold water is going to absolutely change that. Never mind the weight of the water/liquid itself.
Plus it needs to not leak onto her clothes or just evaporate into thin air.

That requires magic.
They're not the juiciest targets though, and telling them solves nothing.

They are also too weak to defend themselves against anything and we can't actually changes that yet. A white court vamp could walk off with them tomorrow and there isn't anything to be done about it unless we put them in a bunker until we can convert them to demonic cyborgs or whatever.

If we had a solution to bring them in on that'd be one thing, but this doesn't actually accomplish anything.
It's a feel good illusion of progress where we get to feel nice about being honest and they get to live in mortal terror until we do what we should be trying anyway if we want to keep them around and find a way to make them less vulnerable.
They are however the most vulnerable, and thus the lowest hanging fruit for a random miscreant.
The point is to raise the nuisance level of targeting them, so that randos will go after easier prey, and targeted hitters get tripped up lomg enough for Molly or an ally to intervene.

I don't expect them to get hunted down to keep her quiet, but being interesting makes you more likely to be targeted.
It was more an illustration of that fact than anything else.

Your point about the white court plays into my broader argument though. These kids are likely to be shit.
Either they can't see through things being subtle and are therefore no more safe than they already were or they can for some edge case and they have to avoid drawing attention while managing it.

The only general advice we could give would be to avoid certain areas or activities, but that sort of stuff is baked in to a lot of stranger danger people already get. Mortals are ignorant, but they don't lack pattern recognition.
Telling them to avoid the undertown, especially at night, or whatever isn't new or helpful information
-No it doesnt. Most supernatural attackers are predators picking off vulnerable prey.
They dont hunt targets that are aware and wary. Thats how lions get their heads kicked off by giraffes.

-There are three types of mortals in play:
  • There's the supernatural community. They are aware of the common dangers, they take the general and sometime specific protections. They will have the lowest routine casualty rate, because they know what to look for and what to avoid, and a nontrivial number are a danger to supernatural attackers. And predators generally go for softer, easier targets. Deaths and attacks in this community are usually targeted action.
  • There's the ignorant supernatural adjacent.They live in and around or come into contact with the regular haunts and hunting grounds of supernatural threats, but know fuckall about the threat. This is where the majority of the casualties will come from.
  • There's the ignorant supernatural distant.This is everyone else. They very rarely run into supernatural predators
At the moment, Izzy and Alec are Group 2: ignorant supernatural adjacent, just because of their unwitting membership of Molly's circle. They need to be converted into Group 1. That just requires knowledge, not ability.


-Avoid certain areas and places, and certain dates.

The power and value of thresholds, where to find the more powerful ones, and how to use them for vetting. The use of iron and silver, rocksalt and garlic, running water, holy water and symbols of faith. Which religious areas are safehavens. What a basic protective circle is, and how to activate one.

Where courtesy might save your life and sanity, where defiance is more appropriate, where you can get out of a jam by dropping names, and how not to unwittingly sign away your life or your children.
Knowledge is both shield and weapon in this setting.


am fairly sure that Lydia's charm raised zombies would be very different to those raised via mortal necromancy. I mean, Odin't Einherjar are also zombies. She would be using her divine right and ancestry to call someone to serve, not desecrating the natural order of things. We shall investigate first, but I wouldn't dismiss the notion out of hand.
I think its necessary to define the term.

Dresdenverse zombies are necromantically-powered, acoustically-controlled automatons with some standard default behavioral coding. They have no free will, and when not controlled by their summoner often run berserk. The older the corpse, the smarter it was, the more powerful the zombie tends to be. Thats why they are preferrably human.

Its also possible to make a zombie by spawning a body and calling up a spirit to inhabit it. Thats what Dresden did with Sue, where he reanimated her skeleton and called up an ancient predatory spirit, presumably a Trex, to inhabit the body.
They have much the same limitations as the other variety.

Lydia's zombies would still be zombies.
They will have better coding(no berserk mode), and do not require acoustic control.
But they are automatons, not the person or animal resurrected.

People will give you a pass if you're fucking with animals and golems.
Using the body of a sapient is unlikely to go down well. Divine heritage or nah.


Odin's Einherjar arent zombies. They are undead.
Odin uses Soulfire to bind the souls of his chosen into either their previous bodies or to give them new ones, not sure which.
Its the same person, they're sapient and as far as I'm aware they serve freely, and cant be controlled.


I have some disagreements with your fundamental assumptions but setting those aside to avoid getting circular, this doesn't address one of the bigger points I've been making.

If you're going to bring them in, why do so in a way that'll make them miserable? We could just fly under the radar and come back to this when we have a power up that doesn't suck to hand out with it. Instead of leaving them to stew on helplessness that we can barely do anything about for months.
Murphy's father ran SI with no powers. Charity has no powers any longer. Father Forthill never has. Hendricks and Marcone are both vanilla mortals. Karrin Murphy has no powers, and has lived with knowledge of the supernatural for more than a decade now; she ran into a troll back when she was a patrol officer, which wws when she first met Dresden.

Butters was actually temporarily committed to a mental institution for identifying Rampire bodies as nonhuman after Bianca's mansion burned down in Grave Peril, and remained a mortal for a decade after until Skin Game, despite hooking up with and actually dating two werewolves.

The judge in the Jury Duty short story knew who Dresden was, and recognized supernatural shenanigans.
Most children apparently recognize and have experience with entire species of supernatural phobophages when they are young kids below the age of majority.

A lot of mortals have some knowledge of part of the supernatural.

There is risk associated with increased knowledge of the supernatural, but thats risk thats already factored into being Molly's friends. What wee are talking about is at the level of what Dresden has advertised openly since the very start of the series.
Storm Front c1 said:
My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk. I'm a wizard. I work out of an office in midtown Chicago. As far as I know, I'm the only openly practicing professional wizard in the country. You can find me in the yellow pages, under "Wizards." Believe it or not, I'm the only one there. My ad looks like this:
HARRY DRESDEN—WIZARD
Lost Items Found. Paranormal Investigations.
Consulting. Advice. Reasonable Rates.
No Love Potions, Endless Purses, Parties, or Other Entertainment
You'd be surprised how many people call just to ask me if I'm serious. But then, if you'd seen the things I'd seen, if you knew half of what I knew, you'd wonder how anyone could not think I was serious.

The end of the twentieth century and the dawn of the new millennium had seen something of a renaissance in the public awareness of the paranormal. Psychics, haunts, vampires—you name it. People still didn't take them seriously, but all the things Science had promised us hadn't come to pass. Disease was still a problem. Starvation was still a problem. Violence and crime and war were still problems. In spite of the advance of technology, things just hadn't changed the way everyone had hoped and thought they would.
Just with additional show and tell.
 
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