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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Alratan said:
CCC and similar charms are designed to be gamed like this. They're niche charms designed to make Infernals behave in what externally looks like insane ways in order to benefit from them.
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I disagree.

Just because a banana cream pie can be used as a projectile doesn't mean that it should be used as one.

The same goes with CCC. Gaming it like y'all want to keep doing is silly and feels completely outside the spirit of the rules, even if it is legal by RAW.
 
Goldfish said:
Just because a banana cream pie can be used as a projectile doesn't mean that it should be used as one.

The same goes with CCC. Gaming it like y'all want to keep doing is silly and feels completely outside the spirit of the rules, even if it is legal by RAW.
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Infernal charms are by design weakest of the solorids. They need clever exploits of the rules to just preform at the level a solorid is expected to hit. And actual solar using their own rule exploits are much stronger then infernals could dream of being.
 
Infernals are in-story designed to be tools made to break the Yozi out their prisons. They are made to exploit any and every loophole in the laws of physics / reality. Cheesing the rules (within reason) is exactly how they should be played, in my opinion, because that's what they were made for by the Yozi - to cheese their way out of the Surrender Oaths.
 
Yog said:
Infernals are in-story designed to be tools made to break the Yozi out their prisons. They are made to exploit any and every loophole in the laws of physics / reality. Cheesing the rules (within reason) is exactly how they should be played, in my opinion, because that's what they were made for by the Yozi - to cheese their way out of the Surrender Oaths.
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Worth remembering that the Yozi charms suck by design. Yozi are the defeated and lobotomized husks of Primordials. Actual Primordial charms would be both stronger and much easier to use to full effect.

Even then Infernal's are one of the stronger exalted as they are the only exalted that can synergize with only themselves. Tool-transcending Constructs is good but infernals can take that and then take the Malefus crafting charms and he is one of the best crafters of the Yozi, really second to Autocron.
 
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Has there been any exalted quests following a Sidereal? I find myself wanting to see how people handle all the indirect manipulation that the type seems to favor.
 
Artemis1992 said:
But most of the ideas I've seen for activating it shouldn't even work.
We can break an electronic padlock so trivially that it barely traps us in any real sense.
It's like holding a rope in your hands and claiming you are tied up.

And on the other hand I obviously don't want to find a solution that involves genuine helplessness.

So I don't see a good, non-cheesy and for me acceptable way to use CCC outside of actually being in a situation caused by real enemies.
My first sight of this Charm was in A Green Sun Illuminates the Void by Earth Scorpion and let me tell you the escape from Londinium was one of the most epic arcs I have seen in any story, fanfic or regular.
Activating it with a padlock instead is devaluing that in my mind.
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^^^
Also worth noting that Electric Devil Caress outright obsoletes the idea of an electronic lock or electronic padlock.

BronzeTongue said:
So do we have any other major crafting projects to play with on the horizon?
I think Lydia's jacket is good enough armor wise for the moment, but some better brass knuckles might be worth the time.

It'd also be entertaining to show up at Harry's place with one of the defunct 1800-1900 era shotgun or rifle types I've posted in the past. It's America and the early 2000s, so "I bought it from a friend/the parking lot of a gun show from a guy with no paperwork but who seemed really trustworthy" is legal in a lot of places. Still is too.

As an aside, actually getting a store front for custom gun smithing might be interesting. Regulations would be tricky, but not insurmountable with cyber devil delegation.

It's a small throughput, but wizards have a lot of cash and some variably strict limits on the modern equipment they can use. Really high quality new builds of stuff designed long enough ago for them to use it without fear could earn us some cash, and more importantly favors with various wizards.
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Going to point out that Lydia's dad did provide her with a starter kit of gear.
We're likely to need magic crafting or Ancient Sorcery to do better.
Other than that?

1)Cellphone upgrade for Molly/Clippy.
2)Enchanted collar for Mouse with either improved manual dexterity or speech function. Maybe both. Ask which would be priority. 1-2 dot Enchantment.
3)Laptop internet access for Bob.
4)Mentat stone for sorcery path use for Molly/psychic numina for Order members. 1-2 dot enchantment.
5)Armor upgrade for Michael after discussions with Charity and Michael about what could use improvement
6)Armor for Murphy is probably a Christmas thing

And and of possible relevance:
A palantir said:
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Labradorite. Up to $500 a carat(0.2 grams) for top quality, cut and polished gemstones.
Around $150-$200 a kilogram for bulk purchase.
Yog said:
Well, for me, I have the following list of ideas (no particular order):
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We arent going to be the only person who can remotely control electronics.
The Yama Kings, for example, give it out as a power.

Molly does not need to spend Essence to fly. She just needs to pass a DC7 Willpower roll to activate her Rage Recast aspects iirc.

Home security is a matter of getting the other jawas to campaign for some pets.
Pair of dogs, a cat or two.
Get them training and magical enhancements later.
 
uju32 said:
We arent going to be the only person who can remotely control electronics.
The Yama Kings, for example, give it out as a power.
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We aren't the only ones, but it does seem to be very rare. Mortal practitioners can't do it because they short out electronic and immortal practitioners tend to be really damn old people that are a bit set in their ways.
 
uju32 said:
We arent going to be the only person who can remotely control electronics.
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I'm not sure what this comment is about?
uju32 said:
Pair of dogs, a cat or two.
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Why not both? Besides, a smart house system is not a bad idea in general.
uju32 said:
6)Armor for Murphy is probably a Christmas thing
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If she's getting involved with the Library of Congress, I think we might want to move that up in the list of priorities.
uju32 said:
Molly does not need to spend Essence to fly. She just needs to pass a DC7 Willpower roll to activate her Rage Recast aspects iirc.
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Fair point, but that still requires concentration.
 
fictionfan said:
We aren't the only ones, but it does seem to be very rare. Mortal practitioners can't do it because they short out electronic and immortal practitioners tend to be really damn old people that are a bit set in their ways.
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Is it?

Dresden Files is primarily told from the PoV of Dresden, the world's most luddite wizard.
For all Dresden knows its something every other Sponsored Magic user out there gets access to, and he's never noticed because he doesnt own or use electronics, and no Warden carries electronics.

I mean, Bob figured out how to access the Internet after living with Butters for a year or two, so it doesnt appear to be something that has to be preprogrammed. Ebenezar drives a truck, uses a pump action shotgun, and pulls down satellites out of the sky. The White Council uses telephones.Mab goes to theme parks and watched Frozen. They are a little set in their ways, but not that set.

Its a good idea not to make those sorts of assumptions about what the opposition can do.
Yog said:
I'm not sure what this comment is about?

Why not both? Besides, a smart house system is not a bad idea in general.

If she's getting involved with the Library of Congress, I think we might want to move that up in the list of priorities.

Fair point, but that still requires concentration.
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1)The CCC gimpsuit, specifically.
Building combat systems that your opposition could have powers specifically to fuck with is just bad.

2)A smart house system is a terrible idea in general, and in the Dresdenverse in particular.
Security breaches of smart house systems are a pretty routine affair these days, even without magic, and Charity is not going to allow us put cyberdevils in everything to mitigate the threat.

3)Not particularly. The LoC Special Collections Division is not renowned for its combat operations; they are using her as a contact, not a combat operative. And she does have standard police armor right now.
We just want to make her better stuff.
 
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uju32 said:
1)The CCC gimpsuit, specifically.
Building combat systems that your opposition could have powers specifically to fuck with is just bad.
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Ankle bracelet, not gimpsuit, and it would have a dedicated HMP devil protecting it from outside shenanigans.

uju32 said:
3)Not particularly. The LoC Special Collections Division is not renowned for its combat operations; they are using her as a contact, not a combat operative. And she does have standard police armor right now.
We just want to make her better stuff.
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With the backing of the Library, she is more likely to feel free to investigate more and be more active. That would put her in more supernatural danger.
 
uju32 said:
Is it?

Dresden Files is primarily told from the PoV of Dresden, the world's most luddite wizard.
For all Dresden knows its something every other Sponsored Magic user out there gets access to, and he's never noticed because he doesnt own or use electronics, and no Warden carries electronics.

I mean, Bob figured out how to access the Internet after living with Butters for a year or two, so it doesnt appear to be something that has to be preprogrammed. Ebenezar drives a truck, uses a pump action shotgun, and pulls down satellites out of the sky. The White Council uses telephones.Mab goes to theme parks and watched Frozen. They are a little set in their ways, but not that set.

Its a good idea not to make those sorts of assumptions about what the opposition can do.
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Considering how rudimentary that use of tech is compared to using magic to control it you might as well say that people using rifles to club people over the head with is evidence that many of them are expert shoots.
 
Yog said:
Ankle bracelet, not gimpsuit, and it would have a dedicated HMP devil protecting it from outside shenanigans.
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Cyberdevils prevent equipment from failing, they dont guarantee protection against hostile intrusion.
Seriously, you want to pit a HMP cyberdevil against Nicodemus Archleone and his Fallen Angel?
That sounds.....unpleasant.

Yog said:
With the backing of the Library, she is more likely to feel free to investigate more and be more active. That would put her in more supernatural danger.
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No she isnt.
No more than she is already willing to do. She doesnt have the senses or resources to do more.
Im not seeing where this raises her risk profile.

The Library is a contact, and for them she is a lot more valuable as an information source and conduit in an area of interest.
fictionfan said:
Considering how rudimentary that use of tech is compared to using magic to control it you might as well say that people using rifles to club people over the head with is evidence that many of them are expert shoots.
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Rudimentary.

Like Listens to Wind doesnt go back to university every decade or couple of decades to stay up to date with modern medical knowledge and technology? Like the Brothers Gruff didnt attempt to assassinate Dresden with modern automatic weapons? Or that Arianna didnt try to buy Dresden on Ebay, or to blow up his office with pre-emplaced bombs? Or Gard doesnt pilot a Huey?

I will once again caution against assuming that the PoV of a early-thirties/early forties stay-at-home wizard is anything like comprehensive about what the full spectrum of magic users in Dresden Files is like, let alone in a Dresden Files/WoD fusion.
Some people are old fashioned. Some. Some most definitely are not.

Molly did not invent cyberdevils after all.
 
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Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 9, 2023 at 12:48 PM, finished with 81 posts and 18 votes.
  • [X] Plan "Excellence unmatched"
    -[X] Consult with Thomas what sort of diamonds (quality, sizes, colors, etc) would be best to make
    -[X] Before starting the production, investigate various techniques of diamond making together with your Cyberdevils, in order to find the best ones for your purposes
    -[X] Commandeer an outdoor workshop. Use Tool Transcending Constructs to make large ice blocks (find or make some empty barrels to place them in) to lower internal temperature enough to trigger Without Honor, Without Hope
    -[X] Use oil, machine oil, or bleach to trigger Boiling Sea Mastery while working
    --[X] Use disposable working clothes that you don't mind getting dirty, and use Tool Transcending constructs to clean up afterwards
    -[X] Make an electronic padlock controllable by Clippy to trigger Cracked Cell Circumvention while working
    -[X] Use crafting excellency
    -[X] Use All Things Betray (pay willpower) for quality control to increase the efficiency (to discard diamonds of low quality at early stages of production)
    -[X] STUNT: "Well, no turning back now. Clippy, lock me up please, until I make this month's quota. And put on some music." you say, as the padlock on the door behind you blinks red, indicating that you are now confined to your workshop. The air around you is crisp and invigorating, the freezing temperature maintained by large columns of ice in the corners. They should last for hours, especially with your chilly aura going full blast around you. Your hair glistens with machine oil, threatening to stain your work clothes. From the light of your soul, strange machinery starts to unfold, ready to create on the level hardly imaginable by mortal men, even if inspired by their techniques you spent the evening before researching.
    [X]Plan Diamond Eyes
    -[X]Market research: Consult with Thomas, and online with cyberdevil help, what diamond qualities are currently most in demand and most likely to move fast.
    -[X]Shopping: ~$20 for 40 pounds of charcoal at Lowe's, ~$10 for plastic container(s). Propylene glycol(antifreeze) at $70/gallon: $100
    -[X]Borrow outdoor garage/workshop again. Shoo jawas away for the duration.
    -[X]Tool Constructs to prep workshop, prep coal and produce dry ice(CO2) in containers around the room to drop room temperature and activate Without Honor
    -[X]Antifreeze(propylene glycol) soak to activate Boiling Sea Mastery
    -[X]Tool Constructs + Crafting Excellency + All Things Betray for diamond manufacture and cutting
    -[X]TLF is active to ignore environmental damage from cold or CO2 concentration
    -[X]Cyberdevil aid as necessary,
    -[X]Tool Constructs for cleanup
    -[X]STUNT: Shooing both Alicia and Mathew away from the door to the outdoor garage with alternate promises and threats, you lock the doors behind you and begin to change into your presoaked work clothes. As you do so, a dense, smoke-like fog swirls around your feet, coming off the containers of dry ice emplaced at the corners of the room and along some of the walls and imbuing the room with a chill at variance with the late summer heat outside. You focus on what you want, and reality bends to your desires, as specialized machinery begins to unfold, filling the room with forges, blinking readouts and swiveling cameras, dominated at one end by a big high resolution screen. Setting Clippy in a Essence-forged docking cradle, you turn on the radio and get to work.
    [X] Plan simple and effective
    -[X] With TTC construct a huge room-sized sufficiently thermally isolated fully enclosed container and fill it with liquid oxygen mixed with solid oxygen slush. Molly will craft inside, fully submerged, allowed by WHWH and getting +2 dice from it. Huge size means no active cooling needed, melting of solid oxygen and slow evaporation of liquid oxygen would provide all the needed cooling. Gets us -1 difficulty from BSM, gets us essence replenishment from CSR as pure liquid oxygen is toxic even without the cold.
    -[X] Use CCC for further -3 difficulty.
    -[X] Use excellency.
    -[X] Craft for as long as possible, repeat if needed.
    -[X] Aim for maximum quantity of high quality grade artificial diamonds, there is a thriving marked for them at that time and they are easier to sell.
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Goldfish said:
I disagree.

Just because a banana cream pie can be used as a projectile doesn't mean that it should be used as one.

The same goes with CCC. Gaming it like y'all want to keep doing is silly and feels completely outside the spirit of the rules, even if it is legal by RAW.
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On the matter of CCC and cheesing thingsI am still new at exalted but I get the feeling that it is very much the kind of game where this sort of rule bending is encouraged to a degree. The basic premise of the game is to have these high concept literally divine powers in the hands of mortals. These are not spells, they are not psionic powers, charms are aspects of your own personal mythos impinging on the world. The tension that forms from that is that the mortal has needs and desires that do not fir the mould, they want to do things that are against theme., like locking themselves in a room to be better at crafting to give one example. In one sense it is a debasement of the divine and in another it is mortal ingenuity shining through

Now of course there are common sense limits to all this, the rules still exist, but there should be a space between what the themes of the powers are and what the universe (and the GM) will allow. At least that is my position.

Hope this helps.
 
uju32 said:
Rudimentary.

Like Listens to Wind doesnt go back to university every decade or couple of decades to stay up to date with modern medical knowledge and technology? Like the Brothers Gruff didnt attempt to assassinate Dresden with modern automatic weapons? Or that Arianna didnt try to buy Dresden on Ebay, or to blow up his office with pre-emplaced bombs? Or Gard doesnt pilot a Huey?

I will once again caution against assuming that the PoV of a early-thirties/early forties stay-at-home wizard is anything like comprehensive about what the full spectrum of magic users in Dresden Files is like, let alone in a Dresden Files/WoD fusion.
Some people are old fashioned. Some. Some most definitely are not.

Molly did not invent cyberdevils after all.
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Yes Rudimentary. There is giant huge clift between being able to use technology as it was designed to be used and being able to hack it and a giant leap beyond that to be able to hack it with magic.

Tell the best hacker in the world to program a hard drive with a magnetized needle.
uju32 said:
Cyberdevils prevent equipment from failing, they dont guarantee protection against hostile intrusion.
Seriously, you want to pit a HMP cyberdevil against Nicodemus Archleone and his Fallen Angel?
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Yes. Our cyberdevils are perfectly loyal. They will short out the hardware they are on before they allow it to be subverted. Which I incidentally am not convinced that Nicodemus or his Fallen Angel have any special advantages in doing.
 
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fictionfan said:
Yes Rudimentary. There is giant huge clift between being able to use technology as it was designed to be used and being able to hack it and a giant leap beyond that to be able to hack it with magic.
Tell the best hacker in the world to program a hard drive with a magnetized needle.
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Casaverde.
Where Ebenezar deorbited a Soviet satellite as an orbital bombardment device.

This is very much in line with Krakatoa, where he set off a volcano.
Turns out that Dresdenverse magic doesnt require you to know the nitty gritty mechanics of a lot of things that you do in order to do them. It does help, especially with delicate stuff. But it does not appear to be mandatory.
fictionfan said:
Yes. Our cyberdevils are perfectly loyal. They will short out the hardware they are on before they allow it to be subverted. Which I incidentally am not convinced that Nicodemus or his Fallen Angel have any special advantages in doing.
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1)Loyalty =/= Capability.
Loyalty means they'll resist and give a report afterwards; it doesnt mean they'll succeed.

2)Citation needed for the ability of cyberdevils to short out hardware.
Because thats very much not a factory spec capability.
There's a reason why we have a different charm to do that.
 
uju32 said:
2)Citation needed for the ability of cyberdevils to short out hardware.
Because thats very much not a factory spec capability.
There's a reason why we have a different charm to do that.
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If we are still talking about a custom "gimp suit" CCC device, than obviously it would have such capability. We are the ones making it.

Also, yes, there's the question of capability. So far canon Dresden villains have demonstrated zero ability to subvert electronics. I have no doubt that some can do so, but it'll take effort. And if we are doing it in a fight, a turn spent subverting our CCC abuser is a turn not spent fighting us.

Then there's wording of the charm:
While this Charm remains in effect, the targeted technology is essentially "alive" and obedient to the Infernal's commands. Hollow Mind Possession's duration lasts as outlined on the following chart:
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That's a flat effect. No counter-rolls possible. It's an exaltation-backed perfect effect with limited duration. I mean, reasonably, probably the devil can be banished. But that, again, takes effort.
 
uju32 said:
Casaverde.
Where Ebenezar deorbited a Soviet satellite as an orbital bombardment device.
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That can be done by raw Forces though.

He doesn't have to manipulate any technology if he telekinetically alters the flight-path so the satellite hits the ground.
In fact it is entirely possible all the insides of the thing got toasted due to the excessive amount of magic working on it, for this case that wouldn't matter.
 
Artemis1992 said:
That can be done by raw Forces though.

He doesn't have to manipulate any technology if he telekinetically alters the flight-path so the satellite hits the ground.
In fact it is entirely possible all the insides of the thing got toasted due to the excessive amount of magic working on it, for this case that wouldn't matter.
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In fact,you wouldn't be able to deorbit a satellite in a practical time using technological control, unless it was specifically designed to be a kinetic kill device. And if it was, it also implies a lot of things regarding Ebenezar's divination abilities, which he hasn't demonstrated so far. "He grabbed it from orbit using gravity / force manipulation" is the simplest explanation.
 
uju32 said:
Casaverde.
Where Ebenezar deorbited a Soviet satellite as an orbital bombardment device.
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So he used a satellite as a big rock. This is less impressive than some of the bad guys managing to use Ebay. I don't know why you think it is actually any sort of example of magic being used to take over tech.

Also why would you think setting off a volcano would take anymore knowledge then the fact that it is a dormant volcano and the ability to make big holes in the ground?
uju32 said:
1)Loyalty =/= Capability.
Loyalty means they'll resist and give a report afterwards; it doesnt mean they'll succeed.

2)Citation needed for the ability of cyberdevils to short out hardware.
Because thats very much not a factory spec capability.
There's a reason why we have a different charm to do that.
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The most common and easiest use of magic is shorting out tech. It's impressive that they don't do that.

In DF shorting out tech is the easiest thing done in series unlike WOD. In most cases the cyber devils should be able to short out tech just by not providing any protection.

Really one dot in any path should allow for destroying tech in DF. It's a clear setting difference from WOD.

Which by the way is another reason that Prince of Ruin attitude will be very useful to us.
 
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