“Human Resources” Shouldn’t Be This Literal: A PMMM/ProjectMoon Quest

Nyarky · Nov 2, 2022

Nottheunmaker said:
Yes, but you'd have to spill the beans about witches for that, and so far no one seems willing to take that step.

I think if you want what you want, you need to make a vote that's honest and upfront.

You know what? Gonna practice what I preach:

[x] Intervene…
-[x] Support both
--[x] Explain your reasoning for both sides of the argument.
-[x] Explain to Madoka that the main culprit for all of this is Kyubey, tell her about witches and where they come from, make sure to point out that Kyubey is emotionless and that his cutesy act is precisely that, an act. Tell her about the fact that, despite the fact that Kyubey promised us to tell us if there was an abnormality around, Homura had to be the one to warn us here, and all Kyubey did when he appeared was propose us to contract, something we just explained is a poisoned gift.

As for what I think of Kyubey, here's a pic of something I consider about as trustworthy as him:

That's Tsathoggua, a chaotic Evil Great old one, also known as *The Father of the Night*.

That should tells you a lot about how trustworthy I find Bunny Satan.

Eternal_0bserver · Nov 2, 2022

I missed it during the discussion, but:

Nottheunmaker said:
Also, wouldn't it be a real dick (but kinda funny) move if Kyubey didn't do anything about Big Bird's victims because it hasn't got anything to do with his system?

Technically, Incubators hide traces of the supernatural mainly because it could affect the world order - and they've been shaping human civilization for far too long to just let them go in a random direction now. Although it would be an interesting image.

Nyarky said:
We were already going toward the correct direction, Homura was the one that gave them to us. Offering a contract is not help, it's selling snake oil. I don't ask him to fight.

He did less than a cheerleader in this fight, he didn't give us any info on what was happening, he wasn't the one who told us that something was happening, the only thing he tried to do was offer us a poisoned gift, the same he gives to everyone and use to kill young girls and submit them to a fate worse than death.

We don't have any evidence that Kyuubei knew more about the situation than we did, and we still didn't ask. I'm sure he wouldn't even turn down the role of cheerleader if we asked for it. And Wish could absolutely solve this particular problem.

And we have absolutely nothing to gain from confronting the Incubators right now and a lot to lose.

Nyarky said:
Just tell her then.

Right now, it's almost guaranteed to result in the same Wish Madoka did in canon. While it's definitely a solution, I don't think Homura will be grateful to you for it.

Kalibrius · Nov 2, 2022

Nottheunmaker said:
What does a Sapling really mean?

My guess Connection and ultimately Resonation
Linking mitakihara to the city and vice versa
Building a bridge between them, a Bifrost of thoughts, power, and LIGHT in addition representing the potential for a seed of light to form, it is arguable that smaller versions of the seed could be made but none that fit the 7 days and nights requirement

They're like that one tree I remember, It looks like multiple trees but when you look at the roots, they are all revealed to be a single tree with multiple 'branches', I think there was an entire forest of it last I remember

Nyarky · Nov 2, 2022

Eternal_0bserver said:
And Wish could absolutely solve this particular problem.

The problem is not whether or not a wish can solve a problem, the answer's always yes, the problem is that a wish is ALWAYS a bad idea in Kyubey's system, because it is condemning yourself to either a quick death, or a fate worse than death long term, or, for some particular cases that almost definitely includes us, it risk killing everyone on earth. We don't even know how our nature would interact with wishing, Kyubey don't either, hell, he probably knows less than us about that, given he actually understand jack shit about magic, for all we know, us wishing means that we suddenly get loose from our cage with all the problems that entails, or worse.

Alcor · Nov 2, 2022

[x] Intervene…
-[x] Support both
--[x] Explain your reasoning for both sides of the argument.
-[x] Explain to Madoka that the main culprit for all of this is Kyubey, tell her about witches and where they come from, make sure to point out that Kyubey is emotionless and that his cutesy act is precisely that, an act. Tell her about the fact that, despite the fact that Kyubey promised us to tell us if there was an abnormality around, Homura had to be the one to warn us here, and all Kyubey did when he appeared was propose us to contract, something we just explained is a poisoned gift.
--[x] Explain to Madoka that you don't think Mami or Sayaka knows this and you're not sure if or how you should break this news to them given they've already contracted. You're worried that telling them like this now would deeply hurt them, but if the three of you work together maybe you can figure out a way.

Thinking about it and yeah it might be worth taking the leap here and telling Madoka about the nature of witches (and Kyubey) but I added a subvote here to further explain to Madoka that as far as we know the three of us here are the only ones who know this fact because the last thing we (OoC) want is for Madoka to accidentally bring this up at our meeting tomorrow. And in telling her that I think we owe her an explanation on why we haven't told those two. Mami was obviously contracted long before we arrived and Sayaka... well, Sayaka went and rushed in without us knowing (and I'd have to double check but we may not have known yet either beyond suspicion at that time?) Including Homura there in "the three of us" even though I don't expect her to be thrilled at all about the idea simply to keep her involved socially. Plus, I mean, without knowing about the loops Madoka isn't going to know why Homura would want no part of this and I'm certainly not willing to reveal her secret here without permission.

Not going to lie, telling Madoka all this feels risky and I can definitely see it going very wrong (like making her canon wish as mentioned), but I also feel like Madoka herself is slowly gravitating towards the idea of contracting and we need to stop that. As for providing her an alternate path of helping, we could begin working on that at the team meeting tomorrow.

Nyarky · Nov 2, 2022

Alcor said:
Thinking about it and yeah it might be worth taking the leap here and telling Madoka about the nature of witches (and Kyubey) but I added a subvote here to further explain to Madoka that as far as we know the three of us here are the only ones who know this fact because the last thing we (OoC) want is for Madoka to accidentally bring this up at our meeting tomorrow. And in telling her that I think we owe her an explanation on why we haven't told those two.

Can agree with the addition, voting for it.

Alcor said:
Not going to lie, telling Madoka all this feels risky and I can definitely see it going very wrong (like making her canon wish as mentioned), but I also feel like Madoka herself is slowly gravitating towards the idea of contracting and we need to stop that. As for providing her an alternate path of helping, we could begin working on that at the team meeting tomorrow.

While it is risky, one important point is that, for all that people call her a lemming at times, Madoka actually took a long time to wish and really thought about it, her canon wish wasn't a spur of the moment things, it was a conscious decision with an actual reasoning behind it. Having us as a person that she can trust to ask about this and consult about her ideas would definitely help, we can steer her via our experience.

[x] Intervene…
-[x] Support both
--[x] Explain your reasoning for both sides of the argument.
-[x] Explain to Madoka that the main culprit for all of this is Kyubey, tell her about witches and where they come from, make sure to point out that Kyubey is emotionless and that his cutesy act is precisely that, an act. Tell her about the fact that, despite the fact that Kyubey promised us to tell us if there was an abnormality around, Homura had to be the one to warn us here, and all Kyubey did when he appeared was propose us to contract, something we just explained is a poisoned gift.
--[x] Explain to Madoka that you don't think Mami or Sayaka knows this and you're not sure if or how you should break this news to them given they've already contracted. You're worried that telling them like this now would deeply hurt them, but if the three of you work together maybe you can figure out a way.

Eternal_0bserver · Nov 2, 2022

Nyarky said:
The problem is not whether or not a wish can solve a problem, the answer's always yes, the problem is that a wish is ALWAYS a bad idea in Kyubey's system, because it is condemning yourself to either a quick death, or a fate worse than death long term, or, for some particular cases that almost definitely includes us, it risk killing everyone on earth. We don't even know how our nature would interact with wishing, Kyubey don't either, hell, he probably knows less than us about that, given he actually understand jack shit about magic, for all we know, us wishing means that we suddenly get loose from our cage with all the problems that entails, or worse.

Eternal_0bserver said:
You are speaking from the point of view of someone who knows about Kyubey's system.

Of course, it doesn't matter if you just want to tell Madoka everything. Personally, I don't think the time has come for this, and it will either seriously complicate our lives, or quickly lead to an early end to the quest with Madokami's ending. Though maybe it will just be a game changer if Madoka decides to let X deal with the Abnormalities on her own.

diplomacy · Nov 2, 2022

Um, if we're talking about spilling the beans about witches to Madoka, maybe we need to confer with Homura first? I don't really want us to make this decision unilaterally.

Alcor · Nov 2, 2022

For what it's worth, I think the presence of Abnormalities lowers the chance of Madoka making her canon wish with this knowledge. It makes the problem more complex and harder to solve. We can honestly tell her we don't really know how Abnormalities fit into the whole picture yet, let alone if the system were radically changed with a Wish.

diplomacy said:
Um, if we're talking about spilling the beans about witches to Madoka, maybe we need to confer with Homura first? I don't really want us to make this decision unilaterally.

I honestly don't really think it's her call to make. Not on this one. It very well might upset her if we tell Madoka, sure, but at the same time Rebellion showed that relationship really isn't healthy on Homura's end and really the way that ended was a direct result of Homura failing to communicate and understand Madoka and deciding on her own what was best for her. Letting her act as a gatekeeper to what should be required information for someone looking to contract seems to be feeding into that.

Not to say that I like the idea of probably upsetting Homura but this really isn't her secret in any sense. Contrast that with the secret of her time looping and why she's put herself through that as something that I'd absolutely agree that we should confer with Homura first because that very much is her secret.

2P1-nd4 · Nov 2, 2022

[X] Intervene…
-[X] Agreeing with Homura
-[x] Explain to Madoka that the main culprit for all of this is Kyubey, tell her about witches and where they come from, make sure to point out that Kyubey is emotionless and that his cutesy act is precisely that, an act. Tell her about the fact that, despite the fact that Kyubey promised us to tell us if there was an abnormality around, Homura had to be the one to warn us here, and all Kyubey did when he appeared was propose us to contract, something we just explained is a poisoned gift.
--[x] Explain to Madoka that you don't think Mami or Sayaka knows this and you're not sure if or how you should break this news to them given they've already contracted. You're worried that telling them like this now would deeply hurt them, but if the three of you work together maybe you can figure out a way.

Madoka may be involved already, but that doesn't mean she should be further. She may have the confidence or a feeling of obligation to her friends but, she's only 14. Not nearly old enough to make this type of a decision, and look where that landed the other girls, damned cursed to one day give into their despair and become witches, plus Madoka contracting is a loss condition in my books.

And if Madoka runs into supernatural stuff, she has X or the girls; it is their burden, not hers.

diplomacy · Nov 2, 2022

Alcor said:
I honestly don't really think it's her call to make. Not on this one. It very well might upset her if we tell Madoka, sure, but at the same time Rebellion showed that relationship really isn't healthy on Homura's end and really the way that ended was a direct result of Homura failing to communicate and understand Madoka and deciding on her own what was best for her. Letting her act as a gatekeeper to what should be required information for someone looking to contract seems to be feeding into that.

By that logic X (who's known Madoka for, what, a week?) has even less right to decide one way or the other. Also Homura in Rebellion has a distinctly different mindset from the Homura we know now. Also X doesn't have any idea about Rebellion in the first place.

And anyway, why are we assuming the 'default action' in this case is to tell her? All we have are our options and their potential consequences, whether we (or Homura) decide to tell her or not, we will still bear the responsibility for that action (or inaction).

Alcor · Nov 2, 2022

diplomacy said:
By that logic X (who's known Madoka for, what, a week?) has even less right to decide one way or the other.

I disagree. I see it more as X realizing that Kyubey is basically lying by omission in his contract offers and encouraging people to contract without knowing critical details that would almost certainly greatly affect their decision even if he's technically not lied or done anything "legally" (so to speak since obviously this is all magic and not subject to an actual legal system) wrong.

It's not a matter of knowing Madoka or any MG personally for any length of time whatsoever, it's a matter of noticing predatory conduct and taking action to correct it, if only for the people within her immediate circle who she is in contact with.

diplomacy · Nov 2, 2022

LunarDreams said:
This. if Rebellion showed anything,it's that Homura is not a reliable source when it comes to decision making involving Madoka. And yes,their relationship is ridiculously unhealthy. And that's a consequence of Homura only seeing Madoka as something to protect,rather than a person with her own agency because of the time loops she went through shaping that mindset.

Homura in Rebellion makes the mistake of not respecting the agency of someone she wanted to protect, which is why...we should not respect her agency wherever Madoka is concerned?

Alcor said:
I disagree. I see it more as X realizing that Kyubey is basically lying by omission in his contract offers and encouraging people to contract without knowing critical details that would almost certainly greatly affect their decision even if he's technically not lied or done anything "legally" (so to speak since obviously this is all magic and not subject to an actual legal system) wrong.

It's not a matter of knowing Madoka or any MG personally for any length of time whatsoever, it's a matter of noticing predatory conduct and taking action to correct it, if only for the people within her immediate circle who she is in contact with.

I mean, telling MGs about witches is a no-brainer, all else being equal. The problem is that not all else is equal - among other things, 'MGs turn into witches' is essentially unproveable without deliberately pushing someone to turn into a witch. Which is why Homura doesn't even bother telling people about this anymore.

We also can't really afford to antagonize Kyubey at this point in time. We already have more than enough on our plate, what with the Abnormality crisis Mitakihara is having.

Alcor · Nov 2, 2022

I thought the primary reason Homura stopped telling the others about witches was what happened with Mami when she found out. Which was also the main reason I wanted to add the subvote to point out we don't think the others know and that we believe just telling them flat out would be bad.

You're right that we technically can't prove it without letting it happen in front of Madoka but I also expect Madoka to believe us. Also I think Kyubey would confirm for us if he inserted himself into the conversation (not that I want him here for this but if he decides to show or Madoka calls for him to hear his side) so even if she doubted us I'm not at all concerned that it ends up with Madoka not believing us. We just saved her life, we helped her save Hitomi's life yesterday, this wouldn't be much weirder than everything else she has suddenly found herself dealing with the last week, and I think she's just naturally trusting.

I don't see this as infringing on Homura's agency at all. Again, I reject the idea that this information is something she has some exclusive right over that we would need to get consent from her to disclose. It's not even knowledge exclusive to her. It's true that she's probably not going to like it but I'd argue it's because she's been hurt so much over her loops trying to find the way to best get Madoka through all this and closes herself off to exploring certain options because they ended painfully her in a previous try. Which is absolutely understandable.

Given that Mami killed herself upon learning the truth it is absolutely understandable that Homura would just conclude that disclosing the truth is no longer an option. In her mind it's either she isn't believed or she is and Mami might repeat that. It's a false choice because it precludes the idea that there might be a way to get Mami to a place where the information, devastating as it is, won't lead to such an outcome. But Homura has been burned so many times and even if she weren't she's still a girl who by all accounts doesn't possess great social skills, that the idea doesn't occur to her and even if it did she'd probably dismiss it as impossible for her.

So from Homura's perspective, nothing good can from telling anyone the truth about witches so she's stopped trying. But that's not necessarily true. X is a new factor, who can approach it from a new angle, and for better or worse has experience in breakdowns and that's the chance I'd like to bet on. Homura has all but given up on hope and so is filtering all these choices through a very negative lens and she has justified reasons to do so, but her pain and grief are also blinding her. She's been fighting alone for so long (from her perspective) but X brings a new perspective and skillset to the situation so things that Homura has long dismissed should be back on the table.

As for Kyubey and proof, my read on him is that he'll basically tell the truth to any question directed to him but will actively withhold details or frame it in a way that will lead to wrong conclusions being drawn so long as it suits his goals. So I don't think there's actually any risk at all of him denying that Magical Girls become Witches. He was perfectly happy to reveal that in canon! Even if he wanted to play semantic games and dance around the subject, if X is present I trust X is more than equipped to phrase questions correctly, or interject to a shady answer, to keep him from worming his way out of a clear explanation.

It's still a risk, I even said so at the outset. We're talking about settings where lots of bad things happen to people who don't deserve it. Maybe Madoka trips up and reveals the info prematurely and Sayaka or Mami have a reaction like they had in canon. Maybe Madoka makes her canon wish or one close to it. Maybe Kyubey decides us making his goal of getting Madoka to contract harder deserves retaliation despite his self-declared lack of emotion. But I also think that it could be a helpful step in making things better in the long run.

Nyarky · Nov 2, 2022

diplomacy said:
Um, if we're talking about spilling the beans about witches to Madoka, maybe we need to confer with Homura first? I don't really want us to make this decision unilaterally.

Already knows her answer, it no, thing is, she isn't the best person to aks about this, we did point out to her that never trying anything new because *it won't work* is not a good attitude to have, especially in a time loop; sometimes, you have to go a little crazy. (And I don't even consider this going crazy in the first place)

diplomacy said:
We also can't really afford to antagonize Kyubey at this point in time.

Ok, there is a very important point to note about this:

Kyubey doesn't do grudge. We can't *antagonize* him that way because he doesn't actually care, all he cares is if Madoka can wish, and maybe if we try to topple his entire system, he gleefully revealed how it all worked to Madoka without any problems in canon, and had no problem answering Isabeau's questions with enough precision for her to decide to wish to have all his powers, including the ability to grant wish, in Tart Magica, the only reaction we would get if we decided to go on national television to reveal the existence of magic would prbably be a remark about all the work it generated for him to hide all of that.

diplomacy said:
Homura in Rebellion makes the mistake of not respecting the agency of someone she wanted to protect, which is why...we should not respect her agency wherever Madoka is concerned?

Homura in Rebellion and canon was treating Madoka like a mushroom, kept in the dark and fed shit, we want to water the seed of her knowledge so that it can become a beautiful tree down the line, the goal and reasoning are very diferent.

Alcor said:
It's not even knowledge exclusive to her.

For example: Kyouko knows it here.

Alcor said:
It's a false choice because it precludes the idea that there might be a way to get Mami to a place where the information, devastating as it is, won't lead to such an outcome.

Case in point: Yuma's speech in Oriko Magica.

Watcher017 · Nov 2, 2022

diplomacy said:
We also can't really afford to antagonize Kyubey at this point in time. We already have more than enough on our plate, what with the Abnormality crisis Mitakihara is having.

Though the discussion took a turn that is too high stakes for me to participate.
- Honestly though that came kinda out of nowhere for me. -
I must say I do not worry as much as I thought with the Idea of telling Madoka.

We are still down an arm from saving her. Which should be a + to getting believed.
Kyubey kinda can't poison the well with Mami too much as it doesn't know Feelings too well and X can just play anything off by being aggressively polite and opaque.
X can lie, do not forget.

And A was a Wing Manager. Being able to redirect shitslinging should be a required skill from that.
Also A's knowledge on Psychology and the skills that let THE SCRIPT be written.
So it should be easily possible to keep Mami in a better mental state even with whatever shit Kyubey may try to stir up.

And there is still the Lobotomy Panic Button Kyubey does not know about if actually everything went to shit there.
Just as a last resort.

And what exactly could QB do otherwise?

The Incubator's do not have Potential, otherwise they would not bother with humans.
So they are kept from too big actions as anything too extreme would reduce Man's ability to self-determine and thus lessen potential.

How did I hear it said once? The Incubators can do effectively anything, but in practice end up doing basically nothing.

Also the biggest thing it could do is put a hit on us setting other magical girl groups on us.
But.
Well.

There is N o t h i n g T h e r e to worry about.

Anyone who could arrive to bother us needs to go through the fightiest Aleph.
And the Gem Collection attests to how effective that would be.

And if nothing else Homura will still be there to answer whatever question Madoka has there.

I wouldn't particularly argue for telling her. Am not convinced now is the best time for it.

But all things considered I would not call it a terrible idea?
At the very least I do not believe it would unduly accellerate or Bad End the Quest.
Which is surprising to me, honestly.

Am also a bit sleepy over here, so sorry if there is anything obviously off here.

Naron · Nov 2, 2022

Nyarky said:
Kyubey doesn't do grudge. We can't *antagonize* him that way because he doesn't actually care

I would argue that this is incorrect, at least in a sense.

It is true Kyubey does not hold grudges, but they are perfectly capable of identifying them in humans and adjacent beings. Once the Incubator becomes aware that X hates their guts, they will act accordingly and probably become far less amicable in future interactions.

Genih Wat · Nov 2, 2022

diplomacy said:
'MGs turn into witches' is essentially unproveable without deliberately pushing someone to turn into a witch.

Adding in my two cents, this... isn't entirely true. It's currently impossible to prove decisively, but X does have tangible evidence for it on hand. The Grief Seed she emptied. The little shards of a person-tree that exist within. Even if she can't prove it was specifically a magical girl, there's enough there once she cleared away the Grief that she could honestly claim that it used to be a person.

Nyarky · Nov 2, 2022

Naron said:
Once the Incubator becomes aware that X hates their guts, they will act accordingly and probably become far less amicable in future interactions.

Not really, the Pleiades saints proved that they hated his guts quite well in Kazumi Magica, what with their dewitching project and anti-kyubey field on their whole town, his reaction? Jack shit. He even told that it is a pity Jyubey (who was made from his corpse as a remplacement for him) died, he would have liked talking with him. He even was quite happy with granting Kazumi's wish at the end, despite the fact that it's quite easy to infer that she will hate his guts too, given her history.

epic · Nov 2, 2022

[x] Intervene…
-[x] Support both
--[x] Explain your reasoning for both sides of the argument.
-[x] Explain to Madoka that the main culprit for all of this is Kyubey, tell her about witches and where they come from, make sure to point out that Kyubey is emotionless and that his cutesy act is precisely that, an act. Tell her about the fact that, despite the fact that Kyubey promised us to tell us if there was an abnormality around, Homura had to be the one to warn us here, and all Kyubey did when he appeared was propose us to contract, something we just explained is a poisoned gift.
--[x] Explain to Madoka that you don't think Mami or Sayaka knows this and you're not sure if or how you should break this news to them given they've already contracted. You're worried that telling them like this now would deeply hurt them, but if the three of you work together maybe you can figure out a way.

Naron · Nov 2, 2022

Nyarky said:
Not really, the Pleiades saints proved that they hated his guts quite well in Kazumi Magica, what with their dewitching project and anti-kyubey field on their whole town, his reaction? Jack shit. He even told that it is a pity Jyubey (who was made from his corpse as a remplacement for him) died, he would have liked talking with him. He even was quite happy with granting Kazumi's wish at the end, despite the fact that it's quite easy to infer that she will hate his guts too, given her history.

Err, the difference is that while a little problematic, the Pleiades Saints and Kazumi are known actors and fully quantified. They are not a threat to either Kyubey or the system.

X and the Abnormalities are unknowns which may be threats. Hence why I assume Kyubey will actually react. If nothing else, the pro-bono stuff (like arranging to adopt Yuma and Mami without prompting) is going to stop.

diplomacy · Nov 2, 2022

Alcor said:
I thought the primary reason Homura stopped telling the others about witches was what happened with Mami when she found out. Which was also the main reason I wanted to add the subvote to point out we don't think the others know and that we believe just telling them flat out would be bad.

You're right that we technically can't prove it without letting it happen in front of Madoka but I also expect Madoka to believe us. Also I think Kyubey would confirm for us if he inserted himself into the conversation (not that I want him here for this but if he decides to show or Madoka calls for him to hear his side) so even if she doubted us I'm not at all concerned that it ends up with Madoka not believing us. We just saved her life, we helped her save Hitomi's life yesterday, this wouldn't be much weirder than everything else she has suddenly found herself dealing with the last week, and I think she's just naturally trusting.

I don't see this as infringing on Homura's agency at all. Again, I reject the idea that this information is something she has some exclusive right over that we would need to get consent from her to disclose. It's not even knowledge exclusive to her. It's true that she's probably not going to like it but I'd argue it's because she's been hurt so much over her loops trying to find the way to best get Madoka through all this and closes herself off to exploring certain options because they ended painfully her in a previous try. Which is absolutely understandable.

Given that Mami killed herself upon learning the truth it is absolutely understandable that Homura would just conclude that disclosing the truth is no longer an option. In her mind it's either she isn't believed or she is and Mami might repeat that. It's a false choice because it precludes the idea that there might be a way to get Mami to a place where the information, devastating as it is, won't lead to such an outcome. But Homura has been burned so many times and even if she weren't she's still a girl who by all accounts doesn't possess great social skills, that the idea doesn't occur to her and even if it did she'd probably dismiss it as impossible for her.

So from Homura's perspective, nothing good can from telling anyone the truth about witches so she's stopped trying. But that's not necessarily true. X is a new factor, who can approach it from a new angle, and for better or worse has experience in breakdowns and that's the chance I'd like to bet on. Homura has all but given up on hope and so is filtering all these choices through a very negative lens and she has justified reasons to do so, but her pain and grief are also blinding her. She's been fighting alone for so long (from her perspective) but X brings a new perspective and skillset to the situation so things that Homura has long dismissed should be back on the table.

As for Kyubey and proof, my read on him is that he'll basically tell the truth to any question directed to him but will actively withhold details or frame it in a way that will lead to wrong conclusions being drawn so long as it suits his goals. So I don't think there's actually any risk at all of him denying that Magical Girls become Witches. He was perfectly happy to reveal that in canon! Even if he wanted to play semantic games and dance around the subject, if X is present I trust X is more than equipped to phrase questions correctly, or interject to a shady answer, to keep him from worming his way out of a clear explanation.

It's still a risk, I even said so at the outset. We're talking about settings where lots of bad things happen to people who don't deserve it. Maybe Madoka trips up and reveals the info prematurely and Sayaka or Mami have a reaction like they had in canon. Maybe Madoka makes her canon wish or one close to it. Maybe Kyubey decides us making his goal of getting Madoka to contract harder deserves retaliation despite his self-declared lack of emotion. But I also think that it could be a helpful step in making things better in the long run.

Homura trusted us with the MG -> Witch info in the first place. Obviously she doesn't have a fundamental right to the information itself (no one does), but the fact remains that we'd be betraying her trust in us at least somewhat, if we don't even talk to her about it.

Also, if X really thinks telling Madoka is correct, she can just present her case to Homura, convincing her if necessary. Doing it over her head is rather like falling into Homura's own trap of refusal to communicate.

Nyarky said:
Ok, there is a very important point to note about this:

Kyubey doesn't do grudge. We can't *antagonize* him that way because he doesn't actually care, all he cares is if Madoka can wish, and maybe if we try to topple his entire system, he gleefully revealed how it all worked to Madoka without any problems in canon, and had no problem answering Isabeau's questions with enough precision for her to decide to wish to have all his powers, including the ability to grant wish, in Tart Magica, the only reaction we would get if we decided to go on national television to reveal the existence of magic would prbably be a remark about all the work it generated for him to hide all of that.

It's true that Kyubey doesn't do 'grudges', per se. However,
1) if we screw him over enough that he decides our contract potential or our Abno information isn't worth it, he might just become hostile and try to kill us, using MGs, or Abnormalities, or Witches, or by holding our charges hostage - he has a lot of options, really;
2) Kyubey, of all people, likely knows his game theory. Even if it's not a 'grudge' in an emotional sense, he probably understands the concepts of threat and deterrents. Which means that he can make our life difficult without intending to kill us, which is scary in its own right.

Nyarky · Nov 2, 2022

Naron said:
X and the Abnormalities are unknowns which may be threats. Hence why I assume Kyubey will actually react. If nothing else, the pro-bono stuff (like arranging to adopt Yuma and Mami without prompting) is going to stop.

Don't think just that would be enough for him to react though, he will probably simply change his selling speech to Madoka, as long as we don't make her completely unable (not unwilling, he can always try to change that, he did so in canon, he can try here) to wish, it probably don't matter to him.

diplomacy said:
Homura trusted us with the MG -> Witch info in the first place.

Kyubey was the one who told us.

diplomacy said:
2) Kyubey, of all people, likely knows his game theory. Even if it's not a 'grudge' in an emotional sense, he probably understands the concepts of threat and deterrents. Which means that he can make our life difficult without intending to kill us, which is scary in its own right.

*Look at the number of "I don't understand" he utters in canon about something he really should've seen coming if he understood human's emotions*

Somehow, I doubt that.

diplomacy · Nov 2, 2022

Nyarky said:
Kyubey was the one who told us.

I just checked, Homura told us first. Then we lied to Kyubey that we 'figured it out on our own' when he noticed that we weren't surprised about it.

Nyarky said:
*Look at the number of "I don't understand" he utters in canon about something he really should've seen coming if he understood human's emotions*

Somehow, I doubt that.

Again, threat and retaliation in this sense have nothing to do with emotions. It's not like being emotionless prevents Incubators from contemplating e.g. the prisoner's dilemma, which is basically just math.

But, yeah, Kyubey does tend to say stuff that outs him as rather clueless about human emotions. I always had the headcanon that he is actually pretty good at reading emotions in non-extreme situations, and half the time says 'I don't understand' precisely because it can be rather infuriating to hear for an emotionally unstable MG.

Starlit Horizon · Nov 2, 2022

Communication kills. Do we like it or not, but Homura will feel betrayed by revealing info of witchouts without at least informing her. Let's not shoot us in the foot by undermining her trust?

It's not like we can't talk to Madoka tomorrow, after we've at least informed Homura and explained our reasoning. We don't have to do it now or never.

If nothing else, we can ask Madoka (and also Homura) to give it time. It was quite stressful situation even not accounting for the fact that black damage decreases sanity too; going along the lines of "Madoka, I fully understand the sentiment, I really do, but it is not quite so simple. I can't say that I trust myself to explain myself clearly enough right now, I am not quite at my best *X waves the stump of the arm*, and in some ways neither are you, Waw-class abnormalities can be quite "impressive", let alone ones like Big Bird: let's talk about it tomorrow, please".

That way we at very least can inform Homura and try to convince her.

[X] Intervene…
-[X] Support both
--[X] Tell both of them to leave it. They can continue tomorrow.
--[X] Both of them are tired. It will be better if you talk about it tomorrow - after you tell them what you wanted to tell.

“Human Resources” Shouldn’t Be This Literal: A PMMM/ProjectMoon Quest

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Distort

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God of reflection

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