Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Wait, what? The text says:

This specifically means that the charm can be used outside of combat.

You are right, I misread that. I would say you can target anything you can see either with your own senses or remotely, but the charm does have two issues:
  1. It only applies to that one action, for however long it takes
  2. It is a blatantly obvious magical effect, chill darkness spilling from the target's shadow impede them or the like
 
You are right, I misread that. I would say you can target anything you can see either with your own senses or remotely, but the charm does have two issues:
  1. It only applies to that one action, for however long it takes
  2. It is a blatantly obvious magical effect, chill darkness spilling from the target's shadow impede them or the like
Hmm, less useful than I hoped, with it being obvious to even mundanes, but still quite good.

Wait, let's say we target Nemesis with it. Nemesis is a spiritual parasite. Could the blatantness of the effect be used to identify those infected with it? Possibly globally?
 
Hmm, less useful than I hoped, with it being obvious to even mundanes, but still quite good.

Wait, let's say we target Nemesis with it. Nemesis is a spiritual parasite. Could the blatantness of the effect be used to identify those infected with it? Possibly globally?

Target one Nemesis infected and light the whole hive mind up? I... do not see why that would not work. Obviously not all its bodies are taking the same action so only the one you are hitting would be cursed, but it would light up all of them. Now the moment you did that the body you are using as a prime target would instantly stop whatever it's doing, but even so you would have a few seconds of all Nemesis hosts everywhere 'lit up' with shadow curses.
 
Target one Nemesis infected and light the whole hive mind up? I... do not see why that would not work. Obviously not all its bodies are taking the same action so only the one you are hitting would be cursed, but it would light up all of them. Now the moment you did that the body you are using as a prime target would instantly stop whatever it's doing, but even so you would have a few seconds of all Nemesis hosts everywhere 'lit up' with shadow curses.
That makes the charm a must buy for certain. However, I was thinking even more ambitiously. This goes back to the range at which the charm works. If it doesn't require line of sight for activation, and we become aware of Nemesis, would we not be able to use it against Nemesis itself? Not the infected body. The immaterial possessing entity.

In any case, this makes Molly indispensable to defense of reality. Buy the charm, take magical oaths to only use it for the purpose of identifying nemesis in exchange for Ally 4: Gatekeeper, Ally 5: Mab, Ally 5: Titania, and Ally N/A: Uriel, then spam it once every fifteen minutes continuously.

Edit: at worst, we'll need to keep a chained black court vampire in the basement to target with the charm.
 
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That makes the charm a must buy for certain. However, I was thinking even more ambitiously. This goes back to the range at which the charm works. If it doesn't require line of sight for activation, and we become aware of Nemesis, would we not be able to use it against Nemesis itself? Not the infected body. The immaterial possessing entity.

In any case, this makes Molly indispensable to defense of reality. Buy the charm, take magical oaths to only use it for the purpose of identifying nemesis in exchange for Ally 4: Gatekeeper, Ally 5: Mab, Ally 5: Titania, and Ally N/A: Uriel, then spam it once every fifteen minutes continuously.

Technically yes, but it would require insight into what the thing is far beyond just knowing it exists. You would have to understand what a Nemesis is as the outsiders do. I do not want to say that is impossible because hey you are an infernal exalted, you can become the kind of being for whom Nemesis is a light snack, but it is not practical in the short to mid term, targeting a body is your best bet.
 
[X] Snap a picture of the circle before Harry melts it
[X] Write-in: Crown of Eyes to ask what Mab knows about our Exaltation. Focus is museum door she passed through.
-[X] If that is not enough, use the ice and the condensate generated by her aura of frost.
[X] Try to claim one of them, they might be useful or at least interesting
-[X] The jacket
 
About Daedalus. Yes, they left a bad first impression. And the second. And the third. But maybe we'll consider cooperation with them? This organisation is still young. People in it are in dire need of magical consultant. And we can give them that consultation, and even, maybe, subvert that organization, make it to work for our goals. This is ambitious, but we are an Infernal Exalt, right?

Also, in plus side, they'll stop to be a nuisance for our allies and become hindrace for our foes.
 
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To get back to the current vote.

By snapping a picture we are:
-Further disturbing Harry
-Making an image of a name that should be forgotten
-Gettlng an advantage on learning Old Realm, a language that doesn't exist anymore except maybe in the deepest memoriest of some improperly cleaned Exaltations

Doesn't seem worth it to me.
 
About Daedalus. Yes, they left a bad first impression. And the second. And the third. But maybe we'll consider cooperation with them? This organisation is still young. People in it are in dire need of magical consultant. And we can give tham that consultation, and even, maybe, subvert that organization, make it to work for our goals. This is ambitious, but we are an Infernal Exalt, right?

Also, in plus side, they'll stop to be a nuisance for our allies and become hindrace for our foes.
Agreed. Subмerting enemies and making them minions is something I desire, and the underlying motivation of mundane government to assert their authority over their territory is not something bad. It's a perfectly good motivation supported by their populace.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.
Don't forget, we also get a focus to learn other locations of the texts in this language. That's a big plothook.
 
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I agree that it's problematic thing to do from the roleplaying perspective. My hope is that it can be role-played as sorta soulfire, only more painful.
I don't want to make build plans based on assumptions like that unless we get then confirmed first. Personally I don't think it fits, because the charm is explicitly painful and soulfire is simply exhausting.
 
About Daedalus. Yes, they left a bad first impression. And the second. And the third. But maybe we'll consider cooperation with them? This organisation is still young. People in it are in dire need of magical consultant. And we can give them that consultation, and even, maybe, subvert that organization, make it to work for our goals. This is ambitious, but we are an Infernal Exalt, right?

Also, in plus side, they'll stop to be a nuisance for our allies and become hindrace for our foes.
No, they've already shown that they cannot be trusted.

Individually, there are likely several Daedalus agents who are good people or who we could work with in a pinch, but the organization itself, not to mention whoever is pulling their strings (be it someone higher up in the government or a an outside actor), uses tactics that are not acceptable to us.

If they wanted a consultant, they could have hired Harry. Instead they decided to kidnap and blackmail him. That demonstrates quite nicely how they prefer to operate, from a place of complete control of their supernatural "assets".

The only involvement we should have with them, IMO, is through Cyber-Devil infiltration, learning all we can of their personnel, history, current and future operations, resources, supernatural assets, and especially who ultimately gives them their marching orders and what their motivations are.
 
I don't want to make build plans based on assumptions like that unless we get then confirmed first. Personally I don't think it fits, because the charm is explicitly painful and soulfire is simply exhausting.
Ok. @DragonParadox how painful would the use of SRP be? Would there be psychological damage over repeated use of the charm? And how would difficulty lowers and dice adders affect the psychological impact on Molly?

Basically, would it be psychologically harmful to buy this charm?
 
About Daedalus. Yes, they left a bad first impression. And the second. And the third. But maybe we'll consider cooperation with them? This organisation is still young. People in it are in dire need of magical consultant. And we can give them that consultation, and even, maybe, subvert that organization, make it to work for our goals. This is ambitious, but we are an Infernal Exalt, right?

Also, in plus side, they'll stop to be a nuisance for our allies and become hindrace for our foes.

No, they've already shown that they cannot be trusted.

Individually, there are likely several Daedalus agents who are good people or who we could work with in a pinch, but the organization itself, not to mention whoever is pulling their strings (be it someone higher up in the government or a an outside actor), uses tactics that are not acceptable to us.

If they wanted a consultant, they could have hired Harry. Instead they decided to kidnap and blackmail him. That demonstrates quite nicely how they prefer to operate, from a place of complete control of their supernatural "assets".

The only involvement we should have with them, IMO, is through Cyber-Devil infiltration, learning all we can of their personnel, history, current and future operations, resources, supernatural assets, and especially who ultimately gives them their marching orders and what their motivations are.
Yeah. If they'd come for Harry because he's been killing American warlocks, or even if they'd simply been fooled by the fake evidence, I might consider voting to at least look into working with them.

They didn't though; these guys were all drawn from the existing FBI structures and betrayed the singular purpose for which they were given their authority.

As far as I'm concerned they're burned as an organization; Daedalus can't be trusted organizationally not to do whatever the hell they please instead of what they've said they will or are even sworn to do at a base level.

That is likely unfair to some members, but that's why organizations have to cultivate trust and be absolutely scrupulous about maintaining it. Especially when they need to work out of sight to do their jobs.

Edit:

Ok. @DragonParadox how painful would the use of SRP be? Would there be psychological damage over repeated use of the charm? And how would difficulty lowers and dice adders affect the psychological impact on Molly?

Basically, would it be psychologically harmful to buy this charm?
It's not just that; I'm uninterested in the social consequences of Molly hiding in her room cutting herself for power. Mechanics should be paid attention to, but this isn't make or break so I don't see it as worth the trouble.

Just the family drama we already have is enough. We don't need Charity or Micheal deciding that we might be hurting ourselves whenever we go to do something weird that they don't understand and start digging into everything else we plan to do.
 
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Ok. @DragonParadox how painful would the use of SRP be? Would there be psychological damage over repeated use of the charm? And how would difficulty lowers and dice adders affect the psychological impact on Molly?

Basically, would it be psychologically harmful to buy this charm?

To buy it no, to repeatedly use it in a short span of time yes. Molly would be inflicting soul-deep pain on herself for power. Once per week or so is fine, more in an emergency, but if you get into the habit of spamming it there will be psychological consequences.
 
To buy it no, to repeatedly use it in a short span of time yes. Molly would be inflicting soul-deep pain on herself for power. Once per week or so is fine, more in an emergency, but if you get into the habit of spamming it there will be psychological consequences.
Yeah, I won't be voting for us to learn that Charm.
 
That makes the charm a must buy for certain. However, I was thinking even more ambitiously. This goes back to the range at which the charm works. If it doesn't require line of sight for activation, and we become aware of Nemesis, would we not be able to use it against Nemesis itself? Not the infected body. The immaterial possessing entity.

In any case, this makes Molly indispensable to defense of reality. Buy the charm, take magical oaths to only use it for the purpose of identifying nemesis in exchange for Ally 4: Gatekeeper, Ally 5: Mab, Ally 5: Titania, and Ally N/A: Uriel, then spam it once every fifteen minutes continuously.

Edit: at worst, we'll need to keep a chained black court vampire in the basement to target with the charm.
black court is only maybe outsider related or likely.
 
It's a tie between those voting to keep the jacket and those voting to leave it for the others.

Gonna need that to swing one way or the other before DP closes the vote, ya'll.
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Oct 19, 2022 at 6:28 AM, finished with 167 posts and 33 votes.
 
[X] Leave be and continue with what clean up you can

We got old realm from a good occult check. I don't see why we can't go home and throw more dice at the question "what the hell are those funny squiggles" and work from there without a picture of a god eating ritual circle.
 
[X] Leave be and continue with what clean up you can

[X] Leave them for the others
 
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The very highest powers of your crafting system are supposed to be a little sus. These are not tools meant to conform to the sensibilities of 21st century wizards of the White Council, they are the instruments of god kings and diabolists, they have more in common with the Stone Table upon which the wars of the Fey are fought than with Harry's duster.
I dont agree.

Exalted thematics are fine with having to find rare and difficult components for high-tier Craft.
Or having to invest a lot of time and resources to make it. It doesnt even shy away from sometimes shady sourcing.
But making it mandatory to kill people and things to make stuff is more a specifically Abyssal thematic.

And the power argument about the products of Craft in ExWoD seems a little specious when the book has statted Antediluvians for combat encounters.


Which brings us back to the Dresdenverse and its crafting levels.
Its first worth remembering that every mortal can use magic. Very few can be wizards, but everyone can do at least some rudimentary magic if they try. The potential is there.

Warden swords are apparently attuned to individuals as much as a security measure as a power thing
That did not seem to be an issue for Madrigal Raith's spellbane bracelets in White Night chapter 38-39, which he used to block spells in his duel with Dresden and Ramirez.

Thorn bracelets for blocking magic are a thing. And hexenwulfen belts. Dresden gave a Dead Mans Talisman, for protection against ghosts, to Lydia in Grave Peril. Victor was selling Three Eye potions to any bum on the street. Dresden regularly gives alchemical potions to his mundane allies in Changes. Butters makes some in Skin Game. All mortal usable.

Shoggoths are a thing here.
Dresden has fought three varieties of golems, slime golems and barbed wire golems and a third that was uncategorized, in Chicago. There's also Demonreach. There's a pretty high incidence of independent craft if you look, its just not obvious. And many wizards have trouble accumulating the resources necessary.



To get back to the current vote.

By snapping a picture we are:
-Further disturbing Harry
-Making an image of a name that should be forgotten
-Gettlng an advantage on learning Old Realm, a language that doesn't exist anymore except maybe in the deepest memoriest of some improperly cleaned Exaltations

Doesn't seem worth it to me.
1)The cost of disturbing Harry has already been paid.
If we produced it once, there's no guarantee about us producing it again. Thats the province of private discussions after this is all over about caution, care and information security, not pretending we wont look into it again.

Because thats not reassuring to someone who we've explained how the Crown of Eyes works; it just means a countdown to when we whip out something similar during another crisis.


2)Molly's vow at Exaltation was never to make a wrong decision again due to ignorance.
And unlike with Uriel's request, noone in trusted authority is asking her not to do this. Even Dresden is not actively objecting.
Entirely thematic for her to make a note for research.

Sure, if it was a clear threat to other people? Then she'd destroy any records no problem.
But without that, it just be careful about records and dissemination.



3)Harry memorized the Word of Kemmler last year, or at least had Lash do it, and knows how to run the Darkhallow.
He stole Bob from the wreckage of DuMorne's home at 16, and has been hiding him ever since.
He certainly remembers what it is like, when he has to deal with similar situations.

Mind you, its responsible for him to be disturbed and to worry, and I wont deny it gives me a little amusement.
But he knows enough to know he doesnt know our business better than we do, and the life experience to extend a little trust.


4)If the ritual thing explicitly has resonance with the Black Feast and the creation of Black Court vampires as per Word of QM?
Then I'm sad to say that it probably was never entirely forgotten.
Choosing not to learn something does not oblige anyone else to follow suite.


5)We are not the only person who has seen it, and a bunch of those people have very good memories, as well as magic to help refine memory recall. We cant tell Arawn to forget, for example. Or the Archive.
Or Mab, who walked into the aftermath and also saw the ritual circle, and who you can be sure remembers what it looks like.


6)We cant actually say for certain what Old Realm's utility is because we dont know anything about the history of our reality.

We know that our Exaltation was coded in Old Realm.
For all we know the source code of this Reality is written in Old Realm. Or our Hell's inhabitants may all show up speaking Old Realm as a second language. No idea.

It is however canon for ExWoD that without the Brigid's Heir merit, we'd learn ancient sorcery by finding old grimoires and the like.
And I dont think Sorcery spells from the Age of Legends are written in English.
So I suspect Old Realm is more relevant than you might expect.

Whats worth asking is whether Usum can read Old Realm. Because that helps date him to either back during Creation, or after it.
 
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[X] Leave be and continue with what clean up you can

We got old realm from a good occult check. I don't see why we can't go home and throw more dice at the question "what the hell are those funny squiggles" and work from there without a picture of a god eating ritual circle.
To what purpose? A lot of people with very good memory, or memory-enhancing magic, have seen it and will recall.

Arawn has seen it. Gard has seen it. The Archive will remember it. Mab has seen it.
Harry will remember it in microscopic detail, even without the Sight; he has Lash in his head, and Lash did that for him with the Word of Kemmler during Dead Beat.

In declining to take a picture, we're not really achieving anything besides making our own lives more difficult.
 
But making it mandatory to kill people and things to make stuff is more a specifically Abyssal thematic.
Isn't crafting demons into objects the typical Infernal craft?

I didn't really read much about e2 crafting though.

Regardless, I still prefer Fetishes.
Convincing or beating spirits to craft is definitly within our abilities and we can do it for a 10 XP spell from Ancient Sorcery, rather than a 16 or 20 XP Charm.
 
I dont agree.

Exalted thematics are fine with having to find rare and difficult components for high-tier Craft.
Or having to invest a lot of time and resources to make it. It doesnt even shy away from sometimes shady sourcing.
But making it mandatory to kill people and things to make stuff is more a specifically Abyssal thematic.

And the power argument about the products of Craft in ExWoD seems a little specious when the book has statted Antediluvians for combat encounters.


Which brings us back to the Dresdenverse and its crafting levels.
Its first worth remembering that every mortal can use magic. Very few can be wizards, but everyone can do at least some rudimentary magic if they try. The potential is there.

Warden swords are apparently attuned to individuals as much as a security measure as a power thing
That did not seem to be an issue for Madrigal Raith's spellbane bracelets in White Night chapter 38-39, which he used to block spells in his duel with Dresden and Ramirez.

Thorn bracelets for blocking magic are a thing. And hexenwulfen belts. Dresden gave a Dead Mans Talisman, for protection against ghosts, to Lydia in Grave Peril. Victor was selling Three Eye potions to any bum on the street. Dresden regularly gives alchemical potions to his mundane allies in Changes. Butters makes some in Skin Game. All mortal usable.

Shoggoths are a thing here.
Dresden has fought three varieties of golems, slime golems and barbed wire golems and a third that was uncategorized, in

And if you want to make those things with mortal magic you are free to do so, this is not mortal magic. This is kicking reality in the teeth until it agrees with you that Fight Club Creation rules should apply and then doing things that that should be impossible. That is going to take some heavy lifting and have narrative costs, the ones given in the doc are exclusively killing beings and using their life force in the process, but I could see stealing the flowers off Titania's bedroom shelf being worth as much. The point is you cannot just sit in a room and pump out worlds-shattering marvels all the time as an exalted

As for the use limitations, those have to do with the universe being magic starved again. Molly is standing in the middle of a storm of magic that fuels her Exaltation. This has the happy side effect that the exaltation can also reflexively reach out and share some of its powers with any creations immediately at hand. Otherwise that needs to be built in and costs points.
 
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5)We are not the only person who has seen it, and a bunch of those people have very good memories, as well as magic to help refine memory recall. We cant tell Arawn to forget, for example. Or the Archive.
For that matter, doesn't Usum, who sees through our eyes, have perfect memory outside of ages-long magically enforced slumber and possibly surviving through multiple collapses of reality?
 
To what purpose? A lot of people with very good memory, or memory-enhancing magic, have seen it and will recall.

Arawn has seen it. Gard has seen it. The Archive will remember it. Mab has seen it.
Harry will remember it in microscopic detail, even without the Sight; he has Lash in his head, and Lash did that for him with the Word of Kemmler during Dead Beat.

In declining to take a picture, we're not really achieving anything besides making our own lives more difficult.

Mostly because of the observers. We want to investigate the language, but we're already firing on all cylinders in terms of freaking people out. Obviously taking records won't help there, and may bring us trouble later.

I also have a minor and paranoid concern about keeping around any sort of physical record of a neverborn's name. I can't prove that it's a bad idea, so I'm trying to ignore the thought that we might end up dealing with some sort of bullshit happening as a result, but I haven't been entirely successful.

All of this came from inside Molly's head when she didn't even know what she was asking for, so I don't ultimately see a more targeted investigation being too big an ask.

Worse case we just need to write down one character to ask the crown for knowledge on the language.
 
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