Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- Crossover Fantasy
That is interesting thing to think about, on one hand they technically never lie at all. On the other lying through omission is still lying even if every word you say is technically true, meaning if they do this intentionally they still are lying, just in a different manner than what is expected. While lying through skewing the truth is something of a grey area, as technically they are not lying, on the otherhand they are intentionally skewing the truth to lie or deceive the person. Honestly it depends on what the Exaltation judges. I am leaning towards if you attempt to lie or mislead no matter the form, it will work since it seems to go for the more conceptual interpretation. Such as for example Molly getting essence from the platonic concept of corruption. Along with the fact it knows if they are knowingly lying towards the infernal.
Factual Determination Analysis (••••) The Infernal filters all she hears through a spiritual connection to the sum index of all recorded knowledge, cross-referenced against an instinctive analysis of the stress-patterns in the voices of those who speak to her. When someone tries to lie to her, she knows. System: Spend 1 Essence. For the rest of the scene, whenever someone knowingly lies to the Infernal, she recognizes the lie immediately for what it is. Signature Effect: Whenever someone lies to the Infernal, and she recognizes the lie for what it is through Factual Determination Analysis, she may assume her Shintai form automatically, without the need of an Essence or Willpower expenditure or a dice roll. However, if the Infernal has not slain the liar by the time her transformation ends, then she suffers three levels of unsoakable aggravated damage upon returning to her true form.
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It an exalted charm lies by omission count, also it works on absolute truth so you would think that even if the fey thought it was true it would if it was a false statement.
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- Norway
4) EarthScorpion is a partisan Infernals fanboy with a specific vision about how the setting should be and sometimes tries to smuggle in quasi-errata to the setting under the cover of homebrew.
I am like 99% confident it does not work on objective truth.
Partly because of the general setting themes of ambiguity, rewritten history and might-makes-right rather than objective fact several times, and the "Virtues" of Exalted being frequently unvirtuous.
Partly because of the consequence that if it did work on absolute truth, you could turn the charm into a divination engine: find Joe Bloggs by having someone say to you "Joe is on Earth" "Joe is in Europe" "Joe is in Africa" "Joe is north of the Equator" "Joe is south of the Equator" and so on to narrow down Joe's location.
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- washington
In fairness some charms may genuinely work that way just probably not this one.
While it may be possible for some charms to tell objective truth. The one which we are discussing does not check objective truth. What it may check is if the character talking is knowingly and objectively lying to the person they are interacting willingly. Think infernal, what is more likely checking objective truth or similarly in theme with gaining power from corruption, checking for objective lies from the individuals which are knowingly done.
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- Norway
Back in Second Edition the developers accidentally(?) printed an objective truth implication in errata to Wyld-Shaping Technique and some players figured out how to use it for divination. Wild times.
The phrasing was that Wyld-Shaping Technique can create "impossible" objects like frozen lightning or a harlot's lost virginity in physical form, but it cannot create merely very rare or unique objects like a Deathlord's fingerbone, you have to go beat up a Deathlord if you want that.
So if for example you want to find the missing Scarlet Empress...
1) Attempt to use WST to create "A map of the direction of Creation that the Scarlet Empress is in." Since the Scarlet Empress is not in Creation, this map is an impossible object, so WST will create it for you.
2) Attempt to use WST to create "A map of the layer of Malfeas that the Scarlet Empress is in." Since the Scarlet Empress is in Malfeas (according to one of the adventure books, at least), this map is possible but very hard to get by mundane means, so WST will fail.
If you do get a map from step 2, try something like:
3) Attempt to use WST to create "A map of the waypoint of the Wyld that the Scarlet Empress is in".
Repeat for realms of existence to figure out which one the Scarlet Empress is in, then repeat and use WST to narrow down sections of that.
Obviously not what the Charm was intended for, but Exalted is very much about using your power to shake the world in unintended ways.
Objective truth charms lead to silly high-powered divination.
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- Taken by the hand to a land that they understand
[X] Write in - "You are not summoned lightly Queen, even when you permit it. I will neither refuse or commit in this moment. I will consider and seek council, then decide."
Took me a while to catch up, apologies if the conversation's moved on from some of these.
You've sort of gone over that already, but I'm not sure you're taking it far enough. An idea I had was to build up power and wealth in the real world prior to getting the hell, and colonize a low-population world with fast-reproducing Bakemono, or uplift a low-tech hell to modern standards using the Time Differential to do so quickly in the material world. (Side-note, Time Differential also means more time spent researching to upgrade tech faster than Earth.)
Which is a point against Heavenly, as without the climate playing passive defense we'll need to devote more resources to repelling invasion.
[X] Yes, you will call on Mab and listen to what she has to say
-[X]After Mab leaves? Crown of Eyes to ask what Mab knows about our exaltation. Arcane focus: footprints in ectoplasm, precise location(s) where she was standing.
Giving a wishy-washy answer now is just means she gives her recruitment speech here and now when we're exhausted and mote-tapped. Even if we don't intend to take any offers she makes we can summon her with the intention of pumping her for information with a full tank. We can also summon her again somewhere with soft ground to leave more footprints to crown.
Do you think someone like Susan would be willing to swear loyalty to Molly right off the bat before getting to know her? Besides FSB being useful for non-bakemono, it also means we can convince people she can actually help them.
Here's a thought, it's not a static world, right? Even if it matches the build when we get it, if we devote a major story arc to remodeling the place we should be able to upgrade the world to have more value than it started with. Whether that's a PR campaign to increase devotion, a military campaign to put down a resistance movement, scientific research, or colonization efforts to spread out and increase a small population, the world should be able to change.
You've sort of gone over that already, but I'm not sure you're taking it far enough. An idea I had was to build up power and wealth in the real world prior to getting the hell, and colonize a low-population world with fast-reproducing Bakemono, or uplift a low-tech hell to modern standards using the Time Differential to do so quickly in the material world. (Side-note, Time Differential also means more time spent researching to upgrade tech faster than Earth.)
Not a bad idea, but it does raise the question if they can do the same to us. I'd been assuming we'd probably have to deal with an invasion from some other Never-never power at some point, but not many people have been talking about what kind of defenses to give our hell besides its climate, and occasionally Chokepoint.
Which is a point against Heavenly, as without the climate playing passive defense we'll need to devote more resources to repelling invasion.
And Ligier is an actual star. He only has to show up in his true form and both she and the entire planet she's on go fssst in the outer layers of his corona. Depending on continuity of course. IIRC he was mentioned to have twice the mass of the universe in the Gunstar setting.
[X] Yes, you will call on Mab and listen to what she has to say
-[X]After Mab leaves? Crown of Eyes to ask what Mab knows about our exaltation. Arcane focus: footprints in ectoplasm, precise location(s) where she was standing.
Giving a wishy-washy answer now is just means she gives her recruitment speech here and now when we're exhausted and mote-tapped. Even if we don't intend to take any offers she makes we can summon her with the intention of pumping her for information with a full tank. We can also summon her again somewhere with soft ground to leave more footprints to crown.
[X] Yes, you will call on Mab and listen to what she has to say
Wanting advice is fine, but telling her that to her face sounds bad. Both in the potential insult, as small as it is, and in that in context it emphasizes how young Molly is.
Making a commitment serves some other roles here as well. The first being that nips the possibility that Mab arranges something else because she's interested in playing a game with us at the bud.
The second is that it provides some implicit incentive to play nice from now till then. It's probably not enough to change the calculation on its own, but every little bit helps. Even if it's as simple as her choosing not to take a spite shot in order to avoid upsetting her negotiating position later.
Technically the write in does the same, but it does sound sort of like a polite refusal instead of a deferral.
We can get out of this and summon her for tea when we have full essence reserves and the benefits of whatever we spend exp on after the arc close.
Wanting advice is fine, but telling her that to her face sounds bad. Both in the potential insult, as small as it is, and in that in context it emphasizes how young Molly is.
Making a commitment serves some other roles here as well. The first being that nips the possibility that Mab arranges something else because she's interested in playing a game with us at the bud.
The second is that it provides some implicit incentive to play nice from now till then. It's probably not enough to change the calculation on its own, but every little bit helps. Even if it's as simple as her choosing not to take a spite shot in order to avoid upsetting her negotiating position later.
Technically the write in does the same, but it does sound sort of like a polite refusal instead of a deferral.
We can get out of this and summon her for tea when we have full essence reserves and the benefits of whatever we spend exp on after the arc close.
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It a point for heavenly as it make conversion of enemies armies into our armies easier. Exalted social flipping armies is not that hard.
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- Earth
2 more Etiquette cost 5 XP, 3 more cost 9XP if we want to go for broke. This would end with 2(stunt)+2(cold bonus)+6 (char/manip) + 8-10(excellency etiquette) = 18-20 dice
There aren't any useful Infernal Social charms for use against Mab, except maybe Factual Determination Analysis depending on how @DragonParadox interprets the "knowingly tells a lie" part. Since Fae technically don't lie, yet deceive.
It'd be a heavy investment with 16XP, but we have struggled more with the negotiation portion than any physical threat.
A single Ox-Body is sufficient additional defense, tbh.
Not something I'd want to bet on. We can make a really excellent society without heavenly, and play the same social games with the backstop of whatever we spend the additional points on to deal with things that can't be diplomanced away.
I wouldn't spend too much on social charms specifically for one conversation, since that sort of thinking leads to weak builds, but simply being more powerful would be its own assurance and cement our position even without any specific social buffs.
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All of that is probably too much, but two more dots in etiquette aren't that expensive (5XP) and very useful.
Not only for Mab, but Odin does want to talk to us too.
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- Germany
I would say a point in Athletics, one in Etiquette and maybe Empathy would be nice, besides the Charms, which should be more combat-focused.
We will need higher Athletics for various Charms later and until then being more fit is never a bad thing.
We will need higher Athletics for various Charms later and until then being more fit is never a bad thing.
She wants a social combat, don't give her an advantage. Maxing Empathy and Expression is the minimum prep really before talking to her again. Frankly we have put of maxing social to long already.
For my part I'd prefer getting the powerful charms first that give us leverage. Backfilling basic abilities can come after we've taken after we've gotten the most bang for our buck on the other stuff.
We're not running a social exalt, and infernals are not that good at it even if we wanted to.
Maxing out secondary skill sets should wait until we've acquired the greatest advantages we can get in more core areas first.
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We should take what we need.
We have done very good in direct combat, yet floundered at the social game.
Ergo shore up our social game.
Social exalted are the most powerful of all exalted. We absolutely should prioritize maxing social powers.
We should have a plan, not just bounce between immediate problems. Operating like that is how you end up with a kludged together build that doesn't do anything particularly well.
Not that we need to be min-maxed, and it's perfectly worthwhile to make our charms suit some thematic advancement beyond simple utility, but playing an underperforming character in an exalted style game can be annoying.