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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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DragonParadox said:
He just claimed Capricorpus just as he did those poor museum workers, although she was far less willing... her insights may not be that far from him. Also in terms of the nature of his powers, sleep and death are not so distant kin Hypnos was brother to Thanatos. Just because he lost to a bunch of Kemlerities who had a plan and awareness of his weakness it does not mean Arawn is fundamentally weaker than them in all things.
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If he has access to Corpsetaker's memories, he'll also remember her getting scorched by Hellfire for intruding in Dresden's mind.
And that Dresden was the one who killed her.
And had the knowledge to interrupt the Darkhallow and not die. Nevermind Sue.

Dresden is disturbingly knowledgeable about death magic.

Wizard. You would assume they came prepared. And that if they're working for Mab, they have a dossier of your tricks.
Generally, its a lot more difficult to nonlethally subdue someone than to kill them. Dude isnt so much stronger than Harry that he could just nope his everything.

Hence my call of that threat being a bluff.
 
uju32 said:
1)More like a bluff.
He got mousetrapped and trussed up like a lamb to the slaughter by Kattrin and the Corpsetaker.
He has no allies.

Immediately threatening a member of the rescue team seems unwise at best, and presupposes he's strong enough to punch through the mental defenses of the guy who fucked over the Darkhallow last year.
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uju32 said:
Nah.
Harry is doing a job for Mab is not the same thing as Harry being in debt to Mab.
We know about the debt; he doesnt.

Besides, Harry has been Mab's Emissary before, during Summer Knight.
Thats should be common knowledge among supernaturals.
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It seems less to be a bluff from what we can see and more it is a Warning specifically to Dresden the person who has being Mab"s Emissary as you have noted, that he can and will do actions which are necessary for him and Lydia to escape the grasp of Mab if he attempts to take them to her or bring her here. There is a reason why he first asked Gard of her opinion of the situation to avoid unnecessary escalation with her and her boss if they are aligned with Mab"s goal and why he is attempting to clearly persuade Molly as unlike with Dresden, the only details he knows are what he can see, what his daughter told him of Molly and pieces of knowledge which are relating to what she is hinted by what he called her.

As you noted there are many details which he is likely unaware which would alter the context such as the character of Dresden himself, which is why also he is taking actions to attempt to confirm and his positioning such as questioning Gard to confirm if she is aligned with him, neutral or on Mab"s side. And with Molly he is attempting to further align her to his side through attempting the multiple methods we seen as it seems he perceives Harry as on Mab"s side, Gard as now neutral and Molly as potentially viable to get on his side.

As for the necromancers, them being able to subdue him does not equal to others being able to subdue him as easily since they are intimately aware of details which make him far more vulnerable with their specific setup than with others.
 
uju32 said:
If he has access to Corpsetaker's memories, he'll also remember her getting scorched by Hellfire for intruding in Dresden's mind.
And that Dresden was the one who killed her.
And had the knowledge to interrupt the Darkhallow and not die. Nevermind Sue.

Dresden is disturbingly knowledgeable about death magic.

Wizard. You would assume they came prepared. And that if they're working for Mab, they have a dossier of your tricks.
Generally, its a lot more difficult to nonlethally subdue someone than to kill them. Dude isnt so much stronger than Harry that he could just nope his everything.

Hence my call of that threat being a bluff.
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Dresden is disturbingly knowledgeable about death magic for someone who is not a necromancer, Arwan hunts necromancers as his day job. Does that mean he would have an easy time incapacitating Dresden? No, but he would fight to subdue anyway because trying to kill one of your rescuers moments after the rescue is dishonorable, or at least that is Molly's read on him
 
uju32 said:
If he has access to Corpsetaker's memories, he'll also remember her getting scorched by Hellfire for intruding in Dresden's mind.
And that Dresden was the one who killed her.
And had the knowledge to interrupt the Darkhallow and not die. Nevermind Sue.

Dresden is disturbingly knowledgeable about death magic.

Wizard. You would assume they came prepared. And that if they're working for Mab, they have a dossier of your tricks.
Generally, its a lot more difficult to nonlethally subdue someone than to kill them. Dude isnt so much stronger than Harry that he could just nope his everything.

Hence my call of that threat being a bluff.
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Even if it is a bluff, it's a bluff with teeth and enough ambiguity that Harry has cause not to try calling it. That alone might be enough justification for not attempting to summon Mab immediately.
 
[X] Point out that even if he gets away this time they will never be safe from Mab unless they reach some kind of deal
-[X] Explain how we suspect Lydia is part of Mab's plans, and how she too won't be safe from her unless some sort of deal is reached.
-[X] Propose the mantle swap
--[X] Explain how it can be done without (permanent) harm
--[X] Ask how he would feel about elevating a lesser Ankou to his position.

That seems like the better option compared to permanently forcing Matthews out of retirement by turning him into a supernatural hitman.
Also, for those that care about nt making Mab more ofan enemy than necessary, elevating an already loyal Winter Fey lookslike the safer option.
 
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Dheer said:
It seems less to be a bluff from what we can see and more it is a Warning specifically to Dresden the person who has being Mab"s Emissary as you have noted, that he can and will do actions which are necessary for him and Lydia to escape the grasp of Mab if he attempts to take them to her or bring her here. There is a reason why he first asked Gard of her opinion of the situation to avoid unnecessary escalation with her and her boss if they are aligned with Mab"s goal and why he is attempting to clearly persuade Molly as unlike with Dresden, the only details he knows are what he can see, what his daughter told him of Molly and pieces of knowledge which are relating to what she is hinted by what he called her.

As you noted there are many details which he is likely unaware which would alter the context such as the character of Dresden himself, which is why also he is taking actions to attempt to confirm and his positioning such as questioning Gard to confirm if she is aligned with him, neutral or on Mab"s side. And with Molly he is attempting to further align her to his side through attempting the multiple methods we seen as it seems he perceives Harry as on Mab"s side, Gard as now neutral and Molly as potentially viable to get on his side.

As for the necromancers, them being able to subdue him does not equal to others being able to subdue him as easily since they are intimately aware of details which make him far more vulnerable with their specific setup than with others.
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He's been in Chicago for ten months, and avoided Dresden all that time.
I think its safe to assume that he knows damn well who Dresden is, and what his supernatural reputation is like.
Dresden is the dude with the clout to call meetings with the Winter and Summer Lady at McAnally's.

Man has juice.

DragonParadox said:
Dresden is disturbingly knowledgeable about death magic for someone who is not a necromancer, Arwan hunts necromancers as his day job. Does that mean he would have an easy time incapacitating Dresden? No, but he would fight to subdue anyway because trying to kill one of your rescuers moments after the rescue is dishonorable, or at least that is Molly's read on him
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Dresden called up Sue, and can perform the Darkhallow.
By all metrics that matter besides the political ones, he is a necromancer :V

Goldfish said:
Even if it is a bluff, it's a bluff with teeth and enough ambiguity that Harry has cause not to try calling it. That alone might be enough justification for not attempting to summon Mab immediately.
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He made the threat before ascertaining the reactions of the other two party members.
Dude is well off his game.
 
A_Somebody said:
Man, wondering if we can respec to get Wicked City as a preferred path, we seem to be getting the most mileage from it's charms and it seems to have so many other cool things.
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I Said it was the best choice from the start, but no, everyone wanted to beeline Kakuri because it was better at that specific moment in time while disregarding all the other times that Wicked City is better.

(Yes, I'm still a bit nettled at how that part was ignored)
 
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[x] Yog

Honestly @uju32 seems like your bias against him is very strong, from the beginning you didn't like him and argued the darker side of any and all motivations he could have during the whole arc. Even now you continue (according to what I'm sensing from your posts) that he's incompetent for not considering variables he doesn't know, for not fully trusting that Dresden won't call Mab, and for him, an ancient deity, doesn't believing that he is weaker than a young mage after being surprised by a group of strong and ancient necromates who knew his weaknesses and spent I don't know how much time planning his capture.

He may have stayed in town for a few months but I doubt he's done a full and complete psychological survey of Dresden, who he should or should not favor to Winter etc in the event that he's ordered by Mab to go after him. I think his plan was to just hunt down Corpsetaker and then leave for another city as usual.

Calm down.
 
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So one fly in the ointment is: Don't we need a sacrifice for the mantle swap? And unfortunately we just killed all the targets. I guess we could use our crown to find the nearest red vampire or something? Seems like the best source of acceptable sacrifice.

Anyway, if I get our plan here correctly what we want is for Arawn to give up the mantle of the Eldest Ankou (presumably because the mantle is too "hot" and isn't doing him much good right now anyway). Then we let him get away, then summon Mab.

Then we basically tell Mab "Hey looks like Harry failed his task, oh no. Anyway we managed to get this mantle you may want back. What do we want for it? How about you write off one of Harry's favors".

Does that about sound correct? Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't wish to be misunderstanding things.
 
JayTar said:
So one fly in the ointment is: Don't we need a sacrifice for the mantle swap? And unfortunately we just killed all the targets. I guess we could use our crown to find the nearest red vampire or something? Seems like the best source of acceptable sacrifice.
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I'm not exactly sure what Arawn did with Capricorpus.
She might still be sacrificable?

Aside from that, this seems to be the plan, at least the best I can think of.
 
Nemonowan said:
Hasn't Harry already broken his deal with Mab?
I'm sure that by now he would have had ample time to notify her of Arwans' presence
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Combat never truly ended, at least not the threat of imminent combat, before Arawn threatened to put Harry to sleep if he attempted to summon Mab, so it can maybe be rules lawyered into not being past that nebulous deadline if you squint at it just right.
 
Nemonowan said:
Hasn't Harry already broken his deal with Mab?
I'm sure that by now he would have had ample time to notify her of Arwans' presence
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Definitely.

Mab might choose to overlook it if she still gets what she wants. Might.

I wouldn't want to bank on her goodwill.
Goldfish said:
Combat never truly ended, at least not the threat of imminent combat, before Arawn threatened to put Harry to sleep if he attempted to summon Mab, so it can maybe be rules lawyered into not being past that nebulous deadline if you squint at it just right.
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They definitely took some time to put the ghosts to rest.
 
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uju32 said:
He's been in Chicago for ten months, and avoided Dresden all that time.
I think its safe to assume that he knows damn well who Dresden is, and what his supernatural reputation is like.
Dresden is the dude with the clout to call meetings with the Winter and Summer Lady at McAnally's.

Man has juice.
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Correct he knows of his reputation, his connections with specific factions and the numerous rumors and hersay about him. He does not know of Dresden the man, his character and his convictions. He knows what he has done and potentially how he has done it but not why. Which is particularly important context as recall that even people which he he is part of such as the White Council genuinely are not sure of several details about him or actively distrust him as he keeps on projecting red flags and doing actions which end up with many consequences across the land.

Which is muddled further that if he has access to Corpsetaker"s memories, seeing him use hellfire is not exactly an indication which is supporting him character wise due to connections that represent.
 
LightLan said:
They definitely took some time to put the ghosts to rest.
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During which time he was feasibly on high alert to guard against stray Undead, including Capricorpus, before getting confirmation that the threat had passed, and by then there was a new threat.

It's flimsy, but sometimes that is all you need.
 
[X] Point out that even if he gets away this time they will never be safe from Mab unless they reach some kind of deal
-[X] Explain how we suspect Lydia is part of Mab's plans, and how she too won't be safe from her unless some sort of deal is reached.
-[X] Propose the mantle swap
--[X] Explain how it can be done without (permanent) harm
--[X] Ask Matthews if he's interested. Point out how it would protect him from Kemmlerite retribution.
-[X] Use social excellency
-[X] Stunt: "No, I don't plan to, though not wholly for your sake" Molly says with a sigh.
—[X] "Having met your daughter I want to think better of you, that I'm missing or misunderstanding something critical to the story, but knowing only what I know I can't trust that"
—[X] Molly looks him in the eyes, searching for the man behind the mask "You are a king who has broken oaths of fealty, leaving behind those who swore with him. A guardian of the dead who all but broke bread with among the worst of their defilers and bartered with him for renewed divinity, ushering in the greatest advancement and proliferation of necromancy in the modern era."
—[X] " I can't even begin to guess how many people have suffered as the victims in that submarine have suffered due to your choice, but it is far too many."
—[X] "Whatever the truth is, her revenge would not be justice and the innocent people in and around your life deserve to be caught up in it even less than you do"
—[X] "The only true peace and safety for anyone involved in this is to come to a new accord with the queen. Better to do so now while you have some people willing to assist you than later when you will once again be alone"

What do you guys think? The point here is to cut through the bullshit, and to get a bit more insight into Arawn's deal, without being so aggressive that he screws off into the distance.

I also think this fairly accurately captures the fundamental disagreement in the thread on him; many of us want to think better of him because of Lydia's connection to him and how much she cares, but what limited objective information paints an unflattering picture.

Laying that out on the table and trying for some honest cooperation seems like a decent way to clear up some points and make progress on our plans.

Edit: autocorrect issue
Edit 2: Hate to edit after approval voting starts happening, but it occurs to me that saying Mab's name IC is probably a really bad idea.
 
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[X] Point out that even if he gets away this time they will never be safe from Mab unless they reach some kind of deal
-[X] Explain how we suspect Lydia is part of Mab's plans, and how she too won't be safe from her unless some sort of deal is reached.
-[X] Propose the mantle swap
--[X] Explain how it can be done without (permanent) harm
--[X] Ask Matthews if he's interested. Point out how it would protect him from Kemmlerite retribution.
 
BronzeTongue said:
[X] Point out that even if he gets away this time they will never be safe from Mab unless they reach some kind of deal
-[X] Explain how we suspect Lydia is part of Mab's plans, and how she too won't be safe from her unless some sort of deal is reached.
-[X] Propose the mantle swap
--[X] Explain how it can be done without (permanent) harm
--[X] Ask Matthews if he's interested. Point out how it would protect him from Kemmlerite retribution.
-[X] Use social excellency
-[X] Stunt: "No, I don't plan to, though not wholly for your sake" Molly says with a sigh.
—[X] "Having met your daughter I want to think better of you, that I'm missing or misunderstanding something critical to the story, but knowing only what I know I can't trust that"
—[X] Molly looks him in the eyes, searching for the man behind the mask "You are a king who has broken oaths of fealty, leaving behind those who swore with him. A guardian of the dead who all but broke bread with among the worst of their defilers and bartered with him for renewed divinity, ushering in the greatest advancement and proliferation of necromancy in the modern era."
—[X] " I can't even begin to guess how many people have suffered as the victims in that submarine have suffered due to your choice, but it is far too many."
—[X] "Whatever the truth is, Mab's revenge would not be justice and the innocent people in and around your life deserve to be caught up in it even less than you do"
—[X] "The only true peace and safety for anyone involved in this is to come to a new accord with the queen. Better to do so now while you have some people willing to assist you than later when you will once again be alone"

What do you guys think? The point here is to cut through the bullshit, and to get a bit more insight into Arawn's deal, without being so aggressive that he screws off into the distance.

I also think this fairly accurately captures the fundamental disagreement in the thread on him; many of us want to think better of him because of Lydia's connection to him and how much she cares, but what limited objective information paints an unflattering picture.

Laying that out on the table and trying for some honest cooperation seems like a decent way to clear up some points and make progress on our plans.

Edit: autocorrect issue
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Works for me.

[X] BronzeTongue
 
Like thematically Matthew might fit isn't it making a few too many conclusions he fits the bill for the mantle though?

Not to mention anyone here willing to give him said position?
 
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Yeah, Matthew seems like an bad fit. Yes he is right here, but otherwise hes not really qualified. Maybe better to plan to summon someone else up who wants it? Or just naturally let it go to whoever is "next in line"?

Or best case would be rigging up some sort of empty vessel to hold it for us while we talk to Mab. Then we can give it to Mab to give to whoever she wants. But I'm not sure if we can exactly do that. We have a lot of magical expertise here but something like that sounds like it would be a bigger project. Maybe we can make something temporary?
 
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