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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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[ ] Bring round the subject of the fox children, but avoid mentioning the Diao connection you discovered, leave the matter with the deviant cultivation and sacrificial practices going on. [70% Success. Success means avoiding threats and having some fraction of the Diao enforcement turning to rounding up stray children. May be temporary.]

I don't really see any particular benefit to causing trouble for the Diao and Madam Gray with option 2. We just got this conservative clan to talk with us and work with us in some capacity. Frankly, I don't think we need to make Madam Gray and this whole sacrifice/deviant cultivation mess our problem at all. Ling Qi is only Third Realm, has a lot on her plate. We don't need to throw ourselves headlong into literally every problem that comes our way.
 
Madame Grey has been doing this for a long time now, so I don't feel an urgency to do immediate corrective action. Other than working on getting the Fox kids out of there. Which the first one is likely to do just as well as the second.

There is also the fact that the Diao connection to Madame Grey is potentially useful to us as a hidden card if we need to get immediate action out of the Diao in return for burning bridges with them. This is the sort of stuff that the Diao does not want to be aired as dirty laundry. It's cynical and definitely blackmailish, but having this knowledge secreted away gives us more tools when dealing with the Daio later on. As such, using it right now does not seem ideal to me.
 
Neshuakadal said:
But even on success negative things happen. Also leaning on that kind of pressure this early on seems short sighted. Sure we get more pressure on Madam Grey, but we burn bridges we may not need to.

Plus I don't see how option 2 advances the neo-weliu revival goal.
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Well, I figure the neo-Weliu thing would fall under the "other potential side effects" bit, for reasons that I described in the post you quoted. I am interest to know why you disagree with me on that though, and what you think those may be instead.
 
Option 2 is rather short sighted, imo, and effectively leans on blackmail (or at the very least, greymail) to get what we want in this singular instance. It doesn't make us any friends, nor does it demonstrate that we can handle the position of spymaster/diplomat with the tact or care that is required - building relationships is the biggest part of our job. We don't even need to lean on them for our purposes - we just want to delay and mess with her plans enough that we can get around to killing her ourselves, and interfering with the fox-children sacrifices accomplishes that.

Building stronger ties will allow us to, in the future, approach the issues caused by the Diao's wholesale abandonment of the old ways (like the fox) in a more tactful way. This is, after all, what Ling Qi represents alongside CRX - a modernisation of the old ways that nevertheless respects their roots and founding principles. Neo-Weilu, Hipster-Weilu, whatever you want to call it.
 
[X] Bring round the subject of the fox children, but avoid mentioning the Diao connection you discovered, leave the matter with the deviant cultivation and sacrificial practices going on. [70% Success. Success means avoiding threats and having some fraction of the Diao enforcement turning to rounding up stray children. May be temporary.]

Does draw enough attention to mademe grey and while it does leave her culitivation cycle intact, it won't burn our bridge with Diao and does mean we saved probally a few lives.
 
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Zithinoth said:
Well, I figure the neo-Weliu thing would fall under the "other potential side effects" bit, for reasons that I described in the post you quoted. I am interest to know why you disagree with me on that though, and what you think those may be instead.
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Because the Hui are the old ways, bad twisted old ways, but old ways. If anything pressure now would encourage the Diao even further into the celestial peaks culture as a way to distance themselves from this rather than push them into the neo-wielu orbit.

As for the side effects, I have no opinion on what those could be. We don't really have any information so anything would be guessing.
 
The temporary nature of option 1 suggests that, for LQ to really mean what she said to Su Ling about pulling some strings towards this, she would have to press further actions towards an actual solution. The Diao may take in fox children for a little bit, as a favor to LQ, but they will not actually try to do anything meaningful. Option 1 is a timid action, a bandaid. How much time can LQ afford to give this later? LQ's time will only get more valuable later: I think she should deal with it definitively now.
 
Neshuakadal said:
Because the Hui are the old ways, bad twisted old ways, but old ways. If anything pressure now would encourage the Diao even further into the celestial peaks culture as a way to distance themselves from this rather than push them into the neo-wielu orbit.

As for the side effects, I have no opinion on what those could be. We don't really have any information so anything would be guessing.
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The Imperial conservative movement in the Diao appears to have been created by the Hui, so I don't really follow you? It's the other way round, pushing themselves away from the Imperials would be a way to distance themselves from what the Hui did to them. This was implied in the last arc, when Su Ling and LQ found that dream vision were the Hui were encouraged to throw away their old pacts with the fox spirits.

Also, baseless speculation makes this thread run, so take a guess!
 
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yrsillar said:
[ ] Bring round the subject of the fox children, using the Diao connections you've discovered to make implications, let the possibilities of deviant cultivation and sacrificial methods to do the rest. [80% Success. Will cause some friction with Diao Hualing even on success, will cause more stringent attention on the matter of Madam Grey. Negative Diao rep on failure. Other potential side effects.)
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lets gooooo, higher chance and better rewards? easy choice

yrsillar said:
How much entrenched resistance remained in those offices which had not been so thoroughly 'cleaned'?
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reminder that by 'cleaned', Shenhua cut their heads of and put their bleached skulls up on spikes in the city. Shenhua does not fuck around
 
flazeo25 said:
[ ] Bring round the subject of the fox children, but avoid mentioning the Diao connection you discovered, leave the matter with the deviant cultivation and sacrificial practices going on. [70% Success. Success means avoiding threats and having some fraction of the Diao enforcement turning to rounding up stray children. May be temporary.]

Does draw enough attention to mademe grey and while it does leave her culitivation cycle intact, it won't burn our bridge with Diao and does mean we saved probally a few lives.
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The worrying part to me of Option 1 is how it might be a temporary measure. If Madame Grey's cultivation cycle remains viable long-term, and just temporarily slowed, that's not going to give us and Su Ling the chance to catch up and overtake Madame Grey. We'd have to rely on higher-realm help. Not sure how bad that would practically be, but it would likely be demoralizing to Su Ling.

Option 2 isn't great, either. I would hope that we could play up the abusive part of the Hui in the history of the Diao and gain recognition of our sympathizing, but the text of Option 2 seems pretty clear that it'll cause some strife first, both personally with Diao Hualing and with the greater Diao clan.
 
tricholysis said:
The temporary nature of option 1 suggests that, for LQ to really mean what she said to Su Ling about pulling some strings towards this, she would have to press further actions towards an actual solution. The Diao may take in fox children for a little bit, as a favor to LQ, but they will not actually try to do anything meaningful. Option 1 is a timid action, a bandaid. How much time can LQ afford to give this later? LQ's time will only get more valuable later: I think she should deal with it definitively now.
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Why do we need to give any time or attention to it beyond this? We have a whole bunch of higher priorities, and this only came about as a result of a side adventure we kind of pressured Su Ling to try. Giving a lead to one of the most powerful clans in the province and letting them take it from there is more than enough imo.

To reiterate Ling Qi's priorities, roughly:

1.) Becoming God

2.) Establishing and protecting her family

3.) Serving Cai Renxiang, which now includes overthrowing her nearly-god mother

4.) Establishing a whole new region if not Imperial Province

5.) Bringing the Emerald Seas through a war

All of these are things in which having at least amiable relations with one of the most powerful clans in our Province would be extremely useful. Madam Gray is, in the greater scheme of things, a minor issue. Burning the very little goodwill we have with the Diao to get rid of her right now is not in anyone's best interest.
 
Honestly, on further reflection, option 2 is a really dangerous idea, because it's very possible the Diao will assume Ling Qi is trying to blackmail them. If they DO believe her and take out Madam Gray, the most pragmatic followup would not be some wholesale political shift of the clan, but to simply silence everyone related to the matter, which would include Su Ling.
 
Zithinoth said:
The Imperial conservative movement in the Diao appears to have been created by the Hui, so I don't really follow you? It's the other way round, pushing themselves away from the Imperials would be a way to distance themselves from what the Hui did to them. This was implied in the last arc, when Su Ling and LQ found that dream vision were the Hui were encouraged to throw away their old pacts with the fox spirits.
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But that doesn't matter. What matters is how people perceive Weilu and Imperial culture. If someone pointed out that the Diao have a connection to a child sacrifice cult the first reaction of the Diao is not going to be, "Oh wow, that's bad lets lean into the Weilu culture that spawned the cult." No, their first reaction will be, "No we don't. Look how imperial we are. There has never been an imperial that has imperialed as much as we imperial."

The fact that the Hui allowed the Diao to feel imperial has no bearing to how the Diao will react if pressured.
 
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yrsillar said:
[ ] Bring round the subject of the fox children, but avoid mentioning the Diao connection you discovered, leave the matter with the deviant cultivation and sacrificial practices going on. [70% Success. Success means avoiding threats and having some fraction of the Diao enforcement turning to rounding up stray children. May be temporary.]

[ ] Bring round the subject of the fox children, using the Diao connections you've discovered to make implications, let the possibilities of deviant cultivation and sacrificial methods to do the rest. [80% Success. Will cause some friction with Diao Hualing even on success, will cause more stringent attention on the matter of Madam Grey. Negative Diao rep on failure. Other potential side effects.)
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Oooh yeah this is a tuff vote. My knee jerk reaction is to go with number 2 and really start pushing pressure on the fox, to start making her hurt. But I think the arguments for 1 make more sense. This is our first real contact with the Diao and contact with the Ministry of Law and someone with some rep with both. Do we really want to start this off on the wrong foot? Knowing the connection between Madame Grey and the Diao is a trump card I feel, do we really want to use that the very first chance we get? Our knowledge of that connection could be used so much more effectively. Once we have more clout and respect among the Emerald Seas us pulling up the dark past of the Diao could be much more useful. We want to make sure this is done right, we don't want the Diao to get scared and try to take care of this half cocked and botch the job. Like it said in the end of the arc
yrsillar said:
"It will be done," Ling Qi said. She was not Su Ling, but she had no desire to see that monstrosity continue. If there was anything else to spend favors on, this was a start. A sweep for any children with fox blood, and a request for closer monitoring.
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We only need closer monitoring and interrupting her cultivation by saving kids. We can always press more on them later or press for solutions from different angles, we may not be able to easily fix a relationship that starts off bad.
 
LimitlessMemes said:
Honestly, on further reflection, option 2 is a really dangerous idea, because it's very possible the Diao will assume Ling Qi is trying to blackmail them. If they DO believe her and take out Madam Gray, the most pragmatic followup would not be some wholesale political shift of the clan, but to simply silence everyone related to the matter, which would include Su Ling.
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Eh, somehow I doubt that yrs would screw us over that badly on a single choice, so this comes across as fearmongering. Especially since it doesn't say "Diao clan rep down on success." Besides, LQ is too important at this point to quietly slience.

Neshuakadal said:
But that doesn't matter. What matters is how people perceive Weilu and Imperial culture. If someone pointed out that the Diao have a connection to a child sacrifice cult the first reaction of the Diao is not going to be, "Oh wow, that's bad lets lean into the Weilu culture that spawned the cult." No, their first reaction will be, "No we don't. Look how imperial we are. There has never been an imperial that has imperialed as much as we imperial."

The fact that the Hui allowed the Diao to feel imperial has no connection to how the Diao will react if pressured.
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It's not a child sacrifice cult though, it's a spirit that was created when the Diao broke their Weliu-style agreements with the local spirits to embrace Imperial culture at the behest of the Hui (or after being bullied into by the Hui, it's a bit unclear). These facts do matter, and the Diao do know them, even if they'd like to forget them. Hell, they might even start adopting the fox kids if LQ confronts them, because they'll have to face that it's ultimately their fault. It's a possible outcome.

I dunno, I don't think you're making a coherent argument here, so colour me unconvinced.
 
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Neshuakadal said:
But that doesn't matter. What matters is how people perceive Weilu and Imperial culture. If someone pointed out that the Diao have a connection to a child sacrifice cult the first reaction of the Diao is not going to be, "Oh wow, that's bad lets lean into the Weilu culture that spawned the cult." No, their first reaction will be, "No we don't. Look how imperial we are. There has never been an imperial that has imperialed as much as we imperial."

The fact that the Hui allowed the Diao to feel imperial has no bearing to how the Diao will react if pressured.
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I agree with the Diao's reaction, but I would add that their second reaction would be to kill people who could disprove their first reaction. Ling Qi is probably protected from that, but I'd imagine they'd put in some effort to discredit us. Su Ling might not be as safe.

Sure, Yrs might not actually kill Su Ling over this decision, but I don't see the point in antagonizing a clan that can squash us like a bug and barely overcame their dislike of us to recently extend an olive branch.
 
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I'm a fan of Option 1 to disrupt the enemy. When we've got some credibility, an established relationship with the law and the Diao, and Su Ling is stronger, we'll be in a better position to resolve it cleanly. It feels like something Su Ling would want to be involved in and if we try to push it now there will be a lot of splash damage for everyone. If we're dealing with higher realms they may be able to perceive some of the tangential stuff and search for context on their own.

Edit which is how I read the may be temporary. Option 1 may be all we needed to do to give the Diao the info to figure out how to put the enemy down for good.
 
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As I see it, JUST halting her ability to eat the kids will force Grey to start doing more blatant things to get her worship, and possibly expose how she sets up her 'gifts' to fail, by randomly distributing her powers as opposed to picking people who actually have an expectation of 'op, this one's a foxchild!' for bad times that's low enough effort on her part to keep going indefinitely.
And that way, when Gray resurfaces as a Problem Ling Qi can reveal the broken pact thing then, when the Diao will trust her and more importantly have a visible fox Kai just rampaging about that they can point to as the real bad guy, versus getting their arm twisted about old bad laundry.
Temporary means learning lesson first, beat up villian second, as any good story goes. 2nd is basically trying to brute-force it and missing the nuances that let this become a problem, basically.
 
yrsillar said:
[ ] Bring round the subject of the fox children, using the Diao connections you've discovered to make implications, let the possibilities of deviant cultivation and sacrificial methods to do the rest. [80% Success. Will cause some friction with Diao Hualing even on success, will cause more stringent attention on the matter of Madam Grey. Negative Diao rep on failure. Other potential side effects.)
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I take it Ling Qi just isn't politically/conversationally savvy enough to make this into "I'm doing you a favor" instead of "I'm threatening you"?
 
Zithinoth said:
It's not a child sacrifice cult though, it's a spirit that was created when the Diao broke their Weliu-style agreements with the local spirits to embrace Imperial culture at the behest of the Hui. These facts do matter, and the Diao do know them, even if they'd like to forget them.

I dunno, I don't think you're making a well put together argument here, so colour me unconvinced.
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What the facts of the situation are don't matter. What everyone looking at the situation thinks is what matters in politics. And this is a very political situation.

Going with option two means that people will take notice, how could they not with the level of action the Diao are taking? The Diao don't want people to take note of this matter because it looks like a child sacrifice cult in their backyard. Worse its a cult they may have a connection to. The Diao don't want people to look to much into this because it looks bad, really really bad.
 
Neshuakadal said:
What the facts of the situation are don't matter. What everyone looking at the situation thinks is what matters in politics. And this is a very political situation.

Going with option two means that people will take notice, how could they not with the level of action the Diao are taking? The Diao don't want people to take note of this matter because it looks like a child sacrifice cult in their backyard. Worse its a cult they may have a connection to. The Diao don't want people to look to much into this because it looks bad, really really bad.
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I mean, it is a child sacrifice cult in their back yard. And they will be dealing with it in both options, so people will look into in both options. And it will look bad in both options. The choice is whether we want to force the Diao to recognize this as a mess they created and that they have to take responsibility for, with the attendant support and internal political mess that brings. Or do we want to give them an out to half-ass it, sweep the mess under the rug after a bit, and then come back on our own later with Su Ling.
 
Zithinoth said:
I mean, it is a child sacrifice cult in their back yard. And they will be dealing with it in both options, so people will look into in both options. And it will look bad in both options. The choice is whether we want to force the Diao to recognize this as a mess they created and that they have to take responsibility for, with the attendant support and internal political mess that brings. Or do we want to give them an out to half-ass it, sweep the mess under the rug after a bit, and then come back on our own later with Su Ling.
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The second option seems very clearly the better option. Humiliating the second most powerful clan in the province as a Third Realm for no apparent reason seems like a horrible idea. By all means lets do the Diao a favor. We lose literally nothing by doing so.
 
Zithinoth said:
I mean, it is a child sacrifice cult in their back yard. And they will be dealing with it in both options, so people will look into in both options. And it will look bad in both options. The choice is whether we want to force the Diao to recognize this as a mess they created and that they have to take responsibility for, with the attendant support and internal political mess that brings. Or do we want to give them an out to half-ass it, sweep the mess under the rug after a bit, and then come back on our own later with Su Ling.
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So three things here.

First, in this post
Zithinoth said:
It's not a child sacrifice cult though
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You say quite clearly its not a child sacrifice cult. Yet in this update you quite clearly agree with me in that it is a child sacrifice cult. This collapses your previous stance which makes it difficult to discuss the matter with you.

Second, there is a difference between going in loud and going in silent. A few ministry people sweeping by is just them checking up on matters, nothing out of the ordinary. The Diao stepping in is a much bigger, louder deal.

Third, we do want to come back later with Su Ling, that's like the whole point. As long as the children get out than Ling Qi is happy. This is Su Ling's challenge and when the time is right Su Ling will be the one to kill Madam Grey. Building up good working relationship now with the ministry will only help that goal.
 
So what I'm understanding is that option 1 doesn't mention the child sacrifice?
Seems weird to me that it can't be mentioned without talking about the Diao stuff.
 
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