Spent a lot of time going through thread, but here:
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
Spent a lot of time going through thread, but here:
Thank you, I appreciate it.
This does change the overall strategic picture and calculus, but ironically that makes plan Probe Away even worse, as it means the abatement provided by BZ fencing is ultimately worthless. In which case the primary concern in regards to Tiberium-options should be how many resources they can provide us for our evacuation/research/defense efforts, with mitigation becoming a distinctly secondary concern, as its only value is in buying us a small amount of additional time.
Would you be willing to switch your vote to plan Mil, YZ and Research, if @Void Stalker could be convinced to free up some resources elsewhere to invest into orbital cleanup and probes?
- Location
- The Underdark
It is not in fact worthless. Abatement is the best thing you can do to buy yourself time. The more abatement you have, the longer it will take for mutation to start spreading the Yellow Zones again, the more you have the more Blue Zone you can lose before you start losing things like your aquaponic farms, logistics connections, military bases and the like. Because in my previously quoted pieces, I was talking to people who were talking about trying to do what GDI has always wanted to do. Harvest out the Tiberium and win victory by converting it all to materials again.
Not really the importance of the Blue Zone perimeter fencing is to stem the bleeding of our Blue Zone territories and to ensure that our industry will stay reasonably intact because throwing away the blue zones will make it harder and more expensive for the sequel quest's terraforming of Earth. Besides to ensure evacuation there still need to be areas where we can still build things with 100% efficiency and that is becoming less and less certain as time goes on if we keep losing blue zones.
And its important to remember that the blue zone fences have synergy affects. I think we've been told that the two phases put together + synergy is at least 13 yellow mit right? And that phase 3 was cheaper.
Also, we don't know what actions are gated behind finishing up the blue zone protections. It makes perfect sense that once the borders are as secure as can be that other projects open up.
Also, we don't know what actions are gated behind finishing up the blue zone protections. It makes perfect sense that once the borders are as secure as can be that other projects open up.
- Location
- Somewhere in Indonesia
[X] Plan Probe Away
- Location
- indeterminate, possibly non-existent
- Pronouns
- Any
Tiberium will overrun Earth eventually, it's just a matter of how long it takes. This is primarily a function of abatement and mutation in Tiberium. We don't have any influence on the mutations, we just have to hope we don't don't get bad rolls. What we can control is abatement, and this is what we need to protect our industry for long enough to build self-sustaining space infrastructure, and to protect as much of the population as possible until we can evacuate them to orbit and the moon. The more abatement we have, the more we'll be able to build with the resources and industry of Earth, and the more people we'll be able to save. Which is important both for moral + political reasons, and the practical reasons of 'more workforce + population base' and 'not having the massive cultural trauma of most of your civilisation dying horrifically while you watched helplessly from orbit'.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
...Dr. Granger is very well equipped, especially with the aid of the Qatar loyalists, to find a longer-term solution to tiberium (for instance, to create a functional Tiberium Control Network without Kane's help).
The tricky bit is that making this happen is inevitably a long range project that's probably going to take until some time in the 2060s. We're realistically going to need to research Scrin and Nod technologies- it might have really helped if we had the Tacitus, but our military wasn't strong enough to keep it out of Nod hands, alas.
And importantly, we need to not get fired while all this is going on, because our likely replacements are either going to be (1) tiberium-denialist free marketeers who don't see a long term problem that needs a solution beyond "just build more harvesters lol," OR (2) more interested in resolving the problem some other way ("just blow the shit out of Nod and then we can surely figure this out" or "let's just evacuate the planet, fuuuck this is bad")
So if we want to beat tiberium while remaining on the Earth, we're gonna need to make sure we can stably pursue that policy... and we should probably include "lifeboat for humanity in space" as a backup option just in case.
We know that should be technologically possible because something like it was done in canon, after all.
Do you expect them to respond more to the prospect of reclaiming places with strong tiberium that are far away that have been lost for a long time, to a standard of "reclaim" that involves "they were once on the fringe of a Red Zone, they are now deep in a Yellow Zone, and you'll still catch tiberium lung and die if you go there without putting on a hazmat suit?" Because realistically, that's what it involves when you 'reclaim' land from a Red Zone and turn it into a Yellow Zone.
Or do you expect them to respond more to the prospect of reclaiming places they live, or near where they live, or where they lived until recently when the prospect of living in an expanding Yellow Zone forced them to move, and making those particular places truly clean of tiberium exposure? Places that (at least, we note grimly, until tiberium mutates into a form we can't abate) are actually safe? Because that's what it involves when you 'reclaim' land from a Yellow Zone and turn it into a Blue Zone.
Especially given that this isn't truly an either/or choice, it's a choice of 'which do we work on first, and which second' on a timescale of months?
I think you view this too much as a thing where people derive abstract satisfaction from an abstract process, as opposed to a practical problem that affects their lives by overrunning or threatening the places they presently live.
The tricky bit is that making this happen is inevitably a long range project that's probably going to take until some time in the 2060s. We're realistically going to need to research Scrin and Nod technologies- it might have really helped if we had the Tacitus, but our military wasn't strong enough to keep it out of Nod hands, alas.
And importantly, we need to not get fired while all this is going on, because our likely replacements are either going to be (1) tiberium-denialist free marketeers who don't see a long term problem that needs a solution beyond "just build more harvesters lol," OR (2) more interested in resolving the problem some other way ("just blow the shit out of Nod and then we can surely figure this out" or "let's just evacuate the planet, fuuuck this is bad")
So if we want to beat tiberium while remaining on the Earth, we're gonna need to make sure we can stably pursue that policy... and we should probably include "lifeboat for humanity in space" as a backup option just in case.
Or build a workable tiberium control network.
We know that should be technologically possible because something like it was done in canon, after all.
I mean, that depends.
Do you expect them to respond more to the prospect of reclaiming places with strong tiberium that are far away that have been lost for a long time, to a standard of "reclaim" that involves "they were once on the fringe of a Red Zone, they are now deep in a Yellow Zone, and you'll still catch tiberium lung and die if you go there without putting on a hazmat suit?" Because realistically, that's what it involves when you 'reclaim' land from a Red Zone and turn it into a Yellow Zone.
Or do you expect them to respond more to the prospect of reclaiming places they live, or near where they live, or where they lived until recently when the prospect of living in an expanding Yellow Zone forced them to move, and making those particular places truly clean of tiberium exposure? Places that (at least, we note grimly, until tiberium mutates into a form we can't abate) are actually safe? Because that's what it involves when you 'reclaim' land from a Yellow Zone and turn it into a Blue Zone.
Especially given that this isn't truly an either/or choice, it's a choice of 'which do we work on first, and which second' on a timescale of months?
I think you view this too much as a thing where people derive abstract satisfaction from an abstract process, as opposed to a practical problem that affects their lives by overrunning or threatening the places they presently live.
Maybe not entirely worthless, but in general you don't win a conflict by focusing on "losing more slowly", and there are plenty of options that provide substantial amounts of abatement AND resources, rather than just abatement alone, which would both buy us more time, AND make it easier for us to pursue long-term solutions to the tiberium problem such as research or evacuation.
It also makes Plan Probes Away yet again worse in my opinion, because it actually provides less abatement than Plan Mil, YZ and Research does, on top of less resources and other issues I have with it.
[X] Plan Mil, YZ and Research
If nothing else blue zone fences are a blue zone defense and one of our priorities is defending the blue zones which represent the bulk of our strength. Even if you ignore the fact that it's been outright stated that finishing phase 3 of fences will give some fairly significant bonsues to mitigation - which you seem to be intent on doing - there is also the narrative bonus which we know also has some effect.
Further, we've been told that the military is hopelessly overstreched at the moment and while they are willing to do yellow zone actions that isn't to say that those actions don't exasperate the problem. Holding off on yellow zone harvesting for a turn or 2 to get the military in order while finishing up the fences doesn't do us that much harm, what it might represent 15/30 RpT with some luck?
[X] Plan Probe Away
Edit;
Edit;
The name of the plan was probably meant to be humourus, but it was what initially made me dislike it. Sorry for dredging up old posts.
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The only way we could build the TCN is the Tacitus and that is why we need to have more blue zones to pressure Kane. Sure we can get the good stuff if Nod and Scrin but they don't have the full schematics of the Tiberium Control Network that Kane current has and is going to create a workable prototype. This is why we need the blue zones because this is our leverage against Kane when we eventually negotiate. So that when he leaves Earth with his followers we could actually control the device for our space empire.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Mil, YZ and Research
Given Derpmind is moving on from her own plan, I had a review of the two leading plans. I take note the points made about blue zone fencing's synergy bonus and why its less important to focus on money than abatement. I also like the turn towards long term investment like probes in Probe away. However, I like the investment into childcare, the yellow zones and extra military in 'Mil, YZ and Research'. I also still think income is very useful. Ultimately, there was a bit more in 'Mil, YZ and Research' that I prioritise higher at this stage of the plan.
Given Derpmind is moving on from her own plan, I had a review of the two leading plans. I take note the points made about blue zone fencing's synergy bonus and why its less important to focus on money than abatement. I also like the turn towards long term investment like probes in Probe away. However, I like the investment into childcare, the yellow zones and extra military in 'Mil, YZ and Research'. I also still think income is very useful. Ultimately, there was a bit more in 'Mil, YZ and Research' that I prioritise higher at this stage of the plan.
You forget the qualifier for 'conventional abatement'. We can't win by depending on sonics, but there are potential projects in the various research options for different abatement tools that will be more effective against tiberium even as it mutates. And possibly more effective because it mutates.
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
[X] Plan Mil, YZ and Research
I'm not ignoring BZ fencing's synergy boni, I just don't consider it sufficiently valuable to override all other concerns at this point in time when there are alternatives available capable of addressing multiple issues at once instead of just one. I might no longer be as vehemently opposed to BZ fencing as I was originally, but frankly I have yet to hear a single compelling argument for getting started working on it *right now*, as opposed to working on raising our budget to the point where we can consistently use all of our dice, and *then* building the BZ fencing in, say, 3-4 turns, once resources are no longer such a pressing concern.
Furthermore, even if one considers the benefits from BZ fencing, or abatement in general, to be overwhelmingly more important than resources, Plan Probe Away is still highly sub-optimal, as we gain no benefits whatsoever from only partially completed projects; having BZ fencing at 399/400 has the same mechanical effect as having it at 0/400. As the 3 dice @Crazycryodude invested into BZ fencing are insufficient to complete it - barring a truly phenomal run of good luck - they are effectively wasted for this turn. Instead it would be vastly better to either invest all our available Tiberium dice into RZ containment this turn, and then invest all available Tiberium dice into BZ fencing the turn afterwards, or vice-versa for those who truly consider abatement a higher priority than resources.
As it stands, trying to go half-half just means that we end up with substantially less abatement AND substantially less resources than if one direction was chosen and fully committed to, effectively giving us the worst of both worlds.
EDIT: As to the military being overstretched, that is false, as I already addressed in my debate with Crazycryodude:
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
There may be an alternate path to something like the TCN, or a lesser-than substitute that nonetheless works, if we have more resources than the canonical GDI had left at the time the TCN was prepared. We might be able to go it alone. Maybe.
But you do have a point. Then again (and maybe this was your point all along) to make this work, we must maintain the Blue Zones (and the resources to construct the TCN to Kane's specifications). Rolling back the Red Zones doesn't directly help us much if it just means the Yellow Zones are wider and bigger, because the Yellow Zones aren't good places for dense populations and advanced industry.
I don't really like to edit my plans after they've been posted for a while and racked up a lot of votes, I figure I can't know what specific reasons people voted for and it's not fair to the people who voted for my plan that was one way and then checked out for 12 hours to come back after the vote's closed and find they actually voted for something else etc.
I probably would go with your suggestions if I could re-do it in a vacuum though, the Red Zone containment lines are doable with one die so it's not the end of the world to take a shot at them but I would personally prefer more effort on BZ fencing, I put in the RZ containment lines as a compromise to the voter base. C'est la guerre, not everything has to finish in one turn, especially in this quest where one turn is a single quarter rather than 6 months or a year. I'm fine with getting work done on the BZ fencing even if it probably won't finish, the points don't just vanish into the aether if it isn't completed this turn after all, it just puts us that much closer to Phase 2 next turn and Phase 3 further down the line. I'm not nearly as obsessed with finishing every project possible in one turn as some other parts of the thread.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I respect that under the circumstances. I probably wouldn't listen to me either, in your position.
[nods]
Just wanted to float the idea and heard what you thought.
Honestly yes. I think that obsessing over whether we get surface mitigation that covers an extra 0.04% of planetary surface area or whatever isn't so great. I like optimization, but there are limits.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
[X] Plan Mil, YZ and Research
Closest to what I want.
@Ithillid in future turns/plans, will it be possible to shift our methodology with Consumer Goods to something like....2, maybe 3 Phases of Factory construction, followed up by a 1-time infusion of Resources for a "handoff" to the coop/company?
This is a combination of my concern that the thread will eventually stop caring about Consumer Goods, and also a representation of the idea that I find a bit more compelling than the government running fashion houses, which is "GDI kick-starts an industry by funding basic and expanded factories, then hands it off to the people".
Closest to what I want.
@Ithillid in future turns/plans, will it be possible to shift our methodology with Consumer Goods to something like....2, maybe 3 Phases of Factory construction, followed up by a 1-time infusion of Resources for a "handoff" to the coop/company?
This is a combination of my concern that the thread will eventually stop caring about Consumer Goods, and also a representation of the idea that I find a bit more compelling than the government running fashion houses, which is "GDI kick-starts an industry by funding basic and expanded factories, then hands it off to the people".
Megacorporations run fashion houses, anyone can do it.