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Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)

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ExNihilo said:
And while we probably won't have the money for it, we should probably pay the loans back as soon as plausible. I'd hate to have a country say "either pay us back now or we're increasing your interest" because we can't exactly go to war in response, now, can we? Now that winning is all but certain it's probably less of an issue, if we were losing it would probably be even more likely to happen.
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Or we just, you know, laugh at them and continue paying the interest rate agreed to.

They would need to declare war on US, and at that point the loan would get used for latrine paper.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Ok, so unless we want problems later on with our nobility and such pushing for war at every perceived insult, this is the only real option.

[] If they aren't attacking there is no point spending lives to dig them out. (Peahens strengthened)

And I am fine with this. We can spare a garrison force large enough to ensure the Highlanders STAY on their side of the line until we can deal with the Western Wall and sort out enough political breathing room to extend contact with them. Worse comes to worst I say we do a megaproject to wall the damned boarder off in a way that doesn't have gates.
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Will... Will we... Make them... Pay... for it? *Runs away Cackling*
 
asonia said:
gotta love the intended "and they don't matter"... lmao. This is still far from the modern era ya know? the common ppl, while important, are mostly reactive in these times (unless the nobles do dumb shit they pretty much stay content, rarely trying to "advance" the state, the nobles are higly important, that some of them may be arogant doesn't change shit).
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OK. Supposed the nobility just don't care about prestige anymore. What do you think supposed to happen? The Khemetri STILL lacks the fundamental to be KoTH. The emperor has no clothes! The world will eventually find out we're just humoring the Khem.

Paying the Khemetri off is an unsustainable situation, no matter how you slice it. Either we wine and dine them or prepare someone else to take Khemetri down a peg or both.
 
It looks like we're facing a political divide (naturally between the people who are cannon fodder in war and are sick and tired of it, and the elites who tend the opposite way). This could lead to internal unrest if we're seen as getting into more "pointless pissing matches", but it's also an opportunity to focus our attentions against Revaunchists (Peacocks). We can truthfully point out that their policies are unsustainable.

Furthermore, the Peahans are the ones who want to learn the lesson from the Collapse, and the less likely to fall back to OVERWHELMING ARROGANCE. I think this makes it clear which side we should be supporting.


[] If they aren't attacking there is no point spending lives to dig them out. (Peahens strengthened)

Could be a good point to start Highlander diplomacy (if we drive them out, the Highlanders are less likely to accept, and everyone's more likely to think there's no point)


Themarineguy said:
And naturally people likely wont be that willing to offer us loans anymore...
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Naturally. We still have Higher Opinion states we can call upon--but, if at all possible, we'd prefer not to take out any more loans regardless. And I think we do have enough of a stockpile not to need more.

@noliar The final form of the diplomatic system is unknown, but there's no version of civ quest where important diplomacy is simply abstracted below the gameplay layer. (Unimportant diplomacy, yes.)

Another possible system, I suppose, would be where the Ymaryn have several diplomatic stances as slots, costing Influence to change or, if controversial enough, to maintain (Important diplomatic calls would still come to a vote).

@asonia The higher-ups do matter. My point was that there is less for the Ymaryn to prepare for (no popular revolt) upon deprioritizing Prestige, not that there is nothing to prepare for.

Even my original point was that the Ymaryn don't care as much about Prestige as the Khemetri. I would have thought this was uncontroversial, as the Khem collapsed into civil war while our people celebrated our intelligent capitulation (fake-edit: to the point that, in the update, we only avoided riots because of our capitulation). But oh well, I suppose I didn't word that as well as I possibly could.
 
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Kiba said:
OK. Supposed the nobility just don't care about prestige anymore. What do you think supposed to happen? The Khemetri STILL lacks the fundamental to be KoTH. The emperor has no clothes! The world will eventually find out we're just humoring the Khem.

Paying the Khemetri off is an unsustainable situation, no matter how you slice it. Either we wine and dine them or prepare someone else to take Khemetri down a peg or both.
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Honestly I think the answer is to puff them up and build navy. Make them like us. Try to take actions that will give the Khem prestige. Sell them guns. Sell them guns at a discount to cripple their own internal arms manufacturers. Make trade deals that favor them and tie them to our economy.

All the while build boats in the Saffron Sea.

And when the prestige number eventually flips they discover we have too many boats to challenge without crippling their own navy and costing them KoTH to someone else who follows us even if they win.
 
The people have spent much for the kingdom and we should be respectful of them.

As such, I very much back this option with the HK:

[] If they aren't attacking there is no point spending lives to dig them out. (Peahens strengthened)

However, I do not back peace yet. I would like to send an embassy to the HK. Ideally an embassy with an army behind it, given the way the HK seem to keep executing our embassies.

In essence I would like to offer them the option of honest friendship and mutual cooperation or offer to them that the army will make their hills into a lifeless desert. Only more pleasantly worded than that.

I have a feeling that the Ymaryns have been poor neighbours to the HK in their arrogance, but if they aren't willing to talk it over... Well, OK, I guess I am kinda grumpy about them invading us. Making a desert of their lands is further than I actually want to go. But rooting out each fortress is something I'd be willing to do if we can't talk things over with them. But let's give them a chance first and finish with WW before we pick such a long and difficult fight.

Fouredged Sword said:
Or we just, you know, laugh at them and continue paying the interest rate agreed to.

They would need to declare war on US, and at that point the loan would get used for latrine paper.
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Could lead to some very inconvenient wars... We'll see how things go. I may be willing to support this kind of play.

fasquardon
 
Aranfan said:
[] Divert some of the redeploying Mass Levy to dig out the Highlanders. (Peacocks strengthened)
[] If they aren't attacking there is no point spending lives to dig them out. (Peahens strengthened)
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Beyond wanting to weaken the revanchists, it just isn't militarily practical to continue the offensive. If was Hellas I might consider going to the extra blow because it would just be a case of smashing them further, but with the Highlanders, they are too fortified. The cost of life required to make headway would just be far too high to be worthwhile.
 
fasquardon said:
The people have spent much for the kingdom and we should be respectful of them.

As such, I very much back this option with the HK:

[] If they aren't attacking there is no point spending lives to dig them out. (Peahens strengthened)

However, I do not back peace yet. I would like to send an embassy to the HK. Ideally an embassy with an army behind it, given the way the HK seem to keep executing our embassies.

In essence I would like to offer them the option of honest friendship and mutual cooperation or offer to them that the army will make their hills into a lifeless desert. Only more pleasantly worded than that.

I have a feeling that the Ymaryns have been poor neighbours to the HK in their arrogance, but if they aren't willing to talk it over... Well, OK, I guess I am kinda grumpy about them invading us. Making a desert of their lands is further than I actually want to go. But rooting out each fortress is something I'd be willing to do if we can't talk things over with them. But let's give them a chance first and finish with WW before we pick such a long and difficult fight.



Could lead to some very inconvenient wars... We'll see how things go. I may be willing to support this kind of play.

fasquardon
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Someone who is willing to war dec us over us refusing to change the terms of a deal, ie over essentially 1 treasury, is someone looking for an excuse to war dec us. War with us will cost more than a treasury for anyone. It makes no sense that someone would go that far.

Oshha said:
Don't forget the Monsoon Sea. The Khem are a power in that sea as well.
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Yes, but this will be a secondary theater. The Saffron Sea is their capital sea. If we beat them there, they essentially have to surrender as we can sail up the river and wreck the entirety of their agriculture. It's also a frustrating sea for them to fight us in because we have the biggest safe harbor in the world in the form of the Yith. They cannot attack our ports that we will be building masses of ships in and all the while we can attack theirs so long as they don't dominate the waters entirely.

I don't want to ignore the Monsoon sea, but I propose a different solution. I think we should try to get a military alliance with one of the Kus navel powers. Ealam rather likes us. Extending to them favorable trade terms could make them like us more. I bet even the Khem would struggle to take two countries at once in a navel war.

And I would like to have a chain of friends stretching all the way to the Hung.
 
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Aranfan said:
Turn 25 (1618 Andyidh Dyadorn) Results

News from Western Wall:

The battle lines moved back and forth this year. At the end of the campaign season, the situation was mostly the same as at the start, save that some territory had changed hands several times.

Interestingly, while your discipline held, the Western Wall armies have been observed to loot even their own settlements when they recapture them. Something is deeply wrong.
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The WW is at the end of their rope. We should seek peace with them before Dafydd get there.

Aranfan said:
News from Txolla:

The Highlanders seem to have given up, having made no attacks this year. They just remain holed up in their fortresses. Is it worth trying to dig them out?

[] Divert some of the redeploying Mass Levy to dig out the Highlanders. (Peacocks strengthened)
[] If they aren't attacking there is no point spending lives to dig them out. (Peahens strengthened)

[+0 Influence]
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No point in wasting lives there.


Aranfan said:
Determine Internal Factions, Melkut Ymaryn:
Needed: Irrelevant, Authority.

The primary political divide in the Melkut Ymaryn at present is the Peacock vs Peahen divide. The Peacocks see it is the duty of the People to reclaim the glory of their ancestors, while the Peahens strive to internalize the lessons that the Creator sought to teach them by sending The Divine Weapon to punish them. Every Class is to one degree or another divided on the issue, in addition to their own concerns.

The nobles, both agricultural and bureaucractic are largely Peacocks, although the Peahens have controlled both the Stylus and the Advisory Chiefdoms since the end of The Collapse.

The Guilds and Traders are roughly evenly split between peacock and peahen, with a slight lean towards peacock.

The priests are overwhelmingly Peahen, seeing The Divine Weapon as a clear message of the Creator's displeasure with The People.

The Gentry are mostly Peacocks, but there are notable Peahens among them.

The Urban and Rural Poor are now overwhelmingly Peahen. They started as a roughly even mix, but the Mass Levy has been wearing on them and they have been becoming increasingly Peahen as the years pass. They are tired of war, and may even have been on the verge of riots before news of The Submission spread. They seem to have been mollified that the King has their interests at heart, and is not spending their lives needlessly, instead focusing on restoring the proper borders of the Kingdom rather than getting involved in pointless pissing matches.

[Internal Faction Report: Peacock/Peahen divide presently dominant political issue]
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Informative! Now, let us use the one authority we have for Sacred Warding in the Thunder Plateau.


Aranfan said:
Press for Peace, Black Sheep

With the deal accepted and the treaty signed, the Black Sheep cease fighting and turn over the remaining settlements to Dafydd. Already the priests and relevant nobles and gentry are working with Khan Thaddeus to figure out the best grazing routes for the nomads and the land. While some are disquieted at the thought of having nomads roaming around INSIDE THE KINGDOM, that sentiment is drowned out by a palpable relief that the lands of the Thunder Mountains are once again under the proper stewardship of The People.

[Peace]
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The Black Sheep took one good look at the ginormous map of the great empire and all the generous grazing lots allocated for them, and exclaimed "free grazing!". Also no competitors.
 
Concerning Western Wall: it might not be a case of internal instability as much as looting having become a norm for them. (I'm not confident with either conclusion.)

Concerning bonds: the Ymaryn-Gylruv only started issuing them in the 1800 EYs (we're at around the 1300 EYs) so I wouldn't count on it even in the best case.

Fouredged Sword said:
Honestly I think the answer is to puff them up and build navy. Make them like us. Try to take actions that will give the Khem prestige. Sell them guns. Sell them guns at a discount to cripple their own internal arms manufacturers. Make trade deals that favor them and tie them to our economy.

All the while build boats in the Saffron Sea.

And when the prestige number eventually flips they discover we have too many boats to challenge without crippling their own navy
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Fouredged Sword said:
I don't want to ignore the Monsoon sea, but I propose a different solution. I think we should try to get a military alliance with one of the Kus navel powers. Ealam rather likes us. Extending to them favorable trade terms could make them like us more. I bet even the Khem would struggle to take two countries at once in a navel war.

And I would like to have a chain of friends stretching all the way to the Hung.
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I think this plan has the best chance of success on all fronts (diplomatic, military). Make Khem hesitant to go to war (incidentally, buying us time that they won't take hostile actions) while making war more likely to be won.

Not sure I would go so far as to sell guns to them, but it does further increase chances of success.
 
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Aranfan said:
Dafydd leaves a garrison force to keep order while the bureaucracy is rebuilt, and begins the long march to Western Wall. He is expected to get there late next year.
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So, I thought that we would need to spend an action next turn on reorganizing the Levy, but it looks like Hard-Carry Dafydd handles it again. What's on the upcoming agenda, then? Surveys, internal faction reports on [Khemetri, Pamplona, Amber Road, Styrmyr, Hellas]? Contact with Pulska or the Highlanders?

The two outstanding ones that might be most interesting are Internal Factions [Western Wall] to see if we can get reports on how wild it's going on there, and Fund Faction: Peahens, if that's even a thing we can do.
 
noncannon said:
Concerning Western Wall: it might not be a case of internal instability as much as looting having become a norm for them. (I'm not confident with either conclusion.)
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Looting absolutely destabilize them as it destroy the rapports between the looting armies and the settlements that sustain them. Meanwhile, our armies continue to maintain its impressive discipline, thus settlements will be more willing to support us, and we have the treasury to pay for it too.
 
noncannon said:
Concerning Western Wall: it might not be a case of internal instability as much as looting having become a norm for them. (I'm not confident with either conclusion.)

Concerning bonds: the Ymaryn-Gylruv only started issuing them in the 1800 EYs (we're at around the 1300 EYs) so I wouldn't count on it even in the best case.


I think this plan has the best chance of success on all fronts (diplomatic, military). Make them hesitant to go to war (incidentally, buying us time that they won't take hostile actions) while making war more likely to be won.

Not sure I would go so far as to sell guns to them, but it does further increase chances of success.
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If we sell them enough guns, then they won't have enough internal gun manufacturing to sustain a major war if they get cut off, say by declaring war on us.

Kiba said:
Looting absolutely destabilize them as it destroy the rapports between the looting armies and the settlements that sustain them. Meanwhile, our armies continue to maintain its impressive discipline, thus settlements will be more willing to support us, and we have the treasury to pay for it too.
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And when the news that the Thunder Plateau is ours and an army twice the size of the one they are currently struggling against is marching in their direction intent to stomp them into the ground without mercy... I wonder if the Western Wall is about to have a desertion problem.
 
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Fouredged Sword said:
If we sell them enough guns, then they won't have enough internal gun manufacturing to sustain a major war if they get cut off, say by declaring war on us.
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And we're fine with our trading partners not liking us much? There's a reason why I don't like selling guns even though they give us treasury to do something useful.

ExNihilo said:
So, I thought that we would need to spend an action next turn on reorganizing the Levy, but it looks like Hard-Carry Dafydd handles it again. What's on the upcoming agenda, then? Surveys, internal faction reports on [Khemetri, Pamplona, Amber Road, Styrmyr, Hellas]? Contact with Pulska or the Highlanders?

The two outstanding ones that might be most interesting are Internal Factions [Western Wall] to see if we can get reports on how wild it's going on there, and Fund Faction: Peahens, if that's even a thing we can do.
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Do it with what? We need the authority for Scared Warding in the Thunder Plateau. We might need those influence to demobilize so that our economy can get back to working again.
 
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Aranfan said:
News from Txolla:

The Highlanders seem to have given up, having made no attacks this year. They just remain holed up in their fortresses. Is it worth trying to dig them out?

[] Divert some of the redeploying Mass Levy to dig out the Highlanders. (Peacocks strengthened)
[] If they aren't attacking there is no point spending lives to dig them out. (Peahens strengthened)
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...fffffffffff

Those bastard hill people are getting away with it again! Kfziyxkhxihx

Okay, calm now.

[X] If they aren't attacking there is no point spending lives to dig them out. (Peahens strengthened)

Eat the rich, support the poor, stop being assholes, etc etc.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
If we sell them enough guns, then they won't have enough internal gun manufacturing to sustain a major war if they get cut off, say by declaring war on us.
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We will also destroy our relations with anyone who doesn't like the Khem if we sell them that many guns. I also think you overestimate how important and useful guns are in this era.
 
I want to send the Western Wall a peace offer next turn. Yeah, we have won only small victories, but everyone can see the writing on the wall at this point. We have triple their army and nothing else to distract us from crushing them.

But the years it will take to do so will see them wreck the countryside in their desperate attempt to sustain a losing war.

If we can get peace, we should take it.

Actually - Can we spread propaganda? We have a spy network. Spreading word about how the Thunder Plateau has peaced out and the great army of Ymar is marching to the Western Wall has the power of being actually true. Spreading this fact wide and far and specifically in the places the Western Wall is harshly garrisoning could cause the Western Wall a lot of problems.
 
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[X] If they aren't attacking there is no point spending lives to dig them out. (Peahens strengthened)

Fouredged Sword said:
I want to send the Western Wall a peace offer next turn. Yeah, we have won only small victories, but everyone can see the writing on the wall at this point. We have triple their army and nothing else to distract us from crushing them.

But the years it will take to do so will see them wreck the countryside in their desperate attempt to sustain a losing war.

If we can get peace, we should take it.
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Just remember that we have yet to get the option to enter peace talks with Western Wall.
 
Kiba said:
We might need those influence to demobilize so that our economy can get back to working again.
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The Mass Levy is still needed to beat WW, so we can't start demob yet. But fair point, it's at most one influence free.

Don't we have two Influence in Mass Levy? Once we start demob, those hopefully free up. Plus 70% says Sacred Warding Amber Road finishes next turn, which means the turn after we get it back, and can use it.
 
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