Is this normal stone we can get from the quarry or some of the stone turned into Numenorean Iron that we brought over?

Númenórean Iron will never be referred to as just "stone" — always with the proper noun. The stone you now have access to is the stone mined in the Angrenmarsh Quarry.

My Tolkien lore is horribly rusty; do Men of Númenór not eat marine products or why have fishing rights not come up yet? Because who gets to fish where is Serious Business -to the point wars have nearly started over it.

Your fishermen are the Romennans, who provide a fair amount of the colony's food resources. Future turns will start to investigate fishing and perhaps even large-scale fisheries, but for now it is a supplemental to the colony's grain. There's currently more than enough fishing space to go around — you are the only ones living on the coast in all of Enedwaith.

You might ask why that is, and the answer is very simple. None of the Middle-Men like the sea very much at all. You might call it a learned response.
 
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I am trying to stay away from hard numbers and a more general "we have enough to do this and maybe enough to do that", which is IMO more in the spirit of Tolkien than spreadsheets detailing nonexistent stone ledgers.

I think that is a really wise policy. Personally I've seen a lot of good quests decide to implement some tracking of resources, add more mechanics to go with that, add mechanics to balance the effects of those mechanics, and so on, until they end up staggering a bit under the weight of spreadsheets.

Sometimes it works with the conceit, but sometimes it dominates the game and adds a lot of workload for the GM. (Which unless the GM is really into that, can often not bode well for the lifespan of the game.)

My Tolkien lore is horribly rusty; do Men of Númenór not eat marine products or why have fishing rights not come up yet? Because who gets to fish where is Serious Business -to the point wars have nearly started over it.

That's a really interesting question. Eriador is kind of a blank area of the map, to be honest, but given how rich marine food resources can be, I'm sure there are some small coastal-

You might ask why that is, and the answer is very simple. None of the Middle-Men like the sea very much at all. You might call it a learned response.

Ah.

Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool.
 
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[X] Plan Laying the Foundations

I appreciate the amount of thought that went into this, and while ambitious, it also seems to leverage a lot of our knowledge and resources into developments that will pay back that effort with greater flexibility in future turns. I'm happy to switch to this.
 
So, as a question, has anybody raised the notion of asking about the ongoing issues between Tharbad and the Middle Men at Lond Daer?



The new numenorean colony is located at the southern river, you can see Tharbad at the top of the map and Lond Daer is located near the mouth of the Gwathlo. They are mentioned to be probably Elf/Faithful aligned, they are geographically the closest Numenorean settlement and they are apparently kind of poor.

All that points in the general direction of Lond Daer being not aligned with Tharbad's little exercise in empire building, but probably close enough to be informed.

We have learned what the parties actively engaged in the conflict have to say and we have gotten some additional hints from the Moria gate guard, but Lond Daer may mean the opportunity to get (relatively) unbiased information from an uninvolved party that is less cryptic than the dwarves.

EDIT: Awesome quest so far, by the way.
 
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Hmm. I feel like it's a bit too ambitious. maybe I am just understimating the MC. But I suppose it's worth a shot.

Thanks for giving it a shot.

I think this is a valid concern, so I added a small part to the end of the write-in:
---[X] Try to negotiate firmly, but don't play such hardball that if a lesser settlement is possible which is still in the spirit of this, we can't agree on it.
Hopefully this addresses that concern. I think it's worth going big here though, because there are some good cards in our hand, but it's a good idea to have a fallback position.

So, as a question, has anybody raised the notion of asking about the ongoing issues between Tharbad and the Middle Men at Lond Daer?



The new numenorean colony is located at the southern river, you can see Tharbad at the top of the map and Lond Daer is located near the mouth of the Gwathlo. They are mentioned to be probably Elf/Faithful aligned, they are geographically the closest Numenorean settlement and they are apparently kind of poor.

All that points in the general direction of Lond Daer being not aligned with Tharbad's little exercise in empire building, but probably close enough to be informed.

We have learned what the parties actively engaged in the conflict have to say and we have gotten some additional hints from the Moria gate guard, but Lond Daer may mean the opportunity to get (relatively) unbiased information from an uninvolved party that is less cryptic than the dwarves.

EDIT: Awesome quest so far, by the way.

That's a really good point. In the long term, my hope has always been for a sort of tripartite alliance and trade network between Tharbad, Lond Daer, and us, as we have direct water links, and all have something to offer the other. In my plan, we are doing a trade/diplomatic mission to Lond Daer, so actually, maybe I could add in a bit about sounding them out? Would you support that?

More generally, I had considered waiting another turn and trying to sound everyone out - we could do a fact-finding mission to Burn Gledd as well - but I think that broadly, we actually have a pretty good idea of what's going on here? Even by what Tharbad has admitted to us directly, they have vassalized a lot of tribes surrounding them, and if their burden of tribute is heavy enough that the Dwarves have noticed it via trade, then it can't be a joke. It was still temping to put it off a turn and do more fact-finding, honestly, but I worried that we'd just be putting off something difficult.
 
Admiral Skippy, I love the ambition of the plan and the suggest of building a diplomatic league. It might be a bit of a pre-mature proposal though, but you did address it by noting to be negotiated down if nobody bites. I'd be tempted to vote for it even, if I hadn't made my own plan. It is nearly identical to mine, so I'd be fine with it winning. I do want to build up a diplomatic league in the area, but maybe starting next turn, after we do more fact finding.
 
That's a really good point. In the long term, my hope has always been for a sort of tripartite alliance and trade network between Tharbad, Lond Daer, and us, as we have direct water links, and all have something to offer the other. In my plan, we are doing a trade/diplomatic mission to Lond Daer, so actually, maybe I could add in a bit about sounding them out? Would you support that?

I am playing catch-up with the different plans that have been proposed, so not sure yet.

One factor that comes to mind is that Tharbad probably has reached out to the Blacklocks, given their sudden competence in western languages. It is unlikely that these guys will abandon their feud with Moria easily, but Tharbad is one of relatively few reasonable sources of supply for a field army of any size in this area.

If the Lord of the Tower is sufficiently desperate to offer enormous bribes for our silence, he may be desperate enough to try other things to keep us silent, if we refuse.

Besides, calling the King is a nuclear option of somewhat uncertain outcome. The kings of the late Numenor will almost certainly take issue with not getting their cut and some issues with the thin blood of the Tharbad garrison, but they probably won't find much wrong with dominating the men of Middle Earth in this way.

Worst case scenario is increased royal attention in the area and the officers of the Tharbad garrison being punished, without things actually improving for the people in the region if, say, the garrison gets replacements that keep up the extractive taxation.

So... I am probably going to give this a think or three before voting, with possibly more comments and questions before then.
 
[X] Plan Laying the Foundations

This is exactly the sort of ambitious diplomacy I love to see; I just really, really hope we roll well, because otherwise this Tharbad issue is going to be troublesome for quite some time.
 
So having taken a look at the plans, I am going with

[X] Plan Surveying the Land

The main thing that I dislike about the plan is that scouting an area as relatively remote as Gundabad strikes me as premature at this point, but both leading plans do it, so that ends being a non factor.

Meanwhile, Laying The Foundations strikes me as idealistic to the point of being over-ambitious.

All the reaching out to the elves is probably going to leave the King's Men (who apparently form the farming core of the colony) in a foul mood, just as the inspection comes into town.

And, frankly, I don't think that we have the leverage to even get the two sides to sit around the same table, given the implied depth of the feud, much less reach the desired coalition goal. For that matter, an arrangement that puts men of Middle Earth roughly in a position of parity with Numenoreans is likely to go over very poorly with the Numenor of this time period and probably reduces the usefulness of the "call the King" nuke option (a nuclear option that I see as dangerously unpredictable, as mentioned in a previous option).

So while I can see the appeal of an ambitious write-in, I don't think that it can be achieved.
 
Meanwhile, Laying The Foundations strikes me as idealistic to the point of being over-ambitious.

All the reaching out to the elves is probably going to leave the King's Men (who apparently form the farming core of the colony) in a foul mood, just as the inspection comes into town.

And, frankly, I don't think that we have the leverage to even get the two sides to sit around the same table, given the implied depth of the feud, much less reach the desired coalition goal. For that matter, an arrangement that puts men of Middle Earth roughly in a position of parity with Numenoreans is likely to go over very poorly with the Numenor of this time period and probably reduces the usefulness of the "call the King" nuke option (a nuclear option that I see as dangerously unpredictable, as mentioned in a previous option).

So while I can see the appeal of an ambitious write-in, I don't think that it can be achieved.

So, to clarify, I did not write the plan with the intent that our "nuclear option" is something we would actually use. (Apologies if that was unclear.) Ultimately, whilst we could probably live with it, a Royal inspection does not solve a lot of problems for us either. (A possible outcome is that we could try to leverage it into getting ourselves appointed as Warden, as the closest Sea Lord with royal descent, but I didn't want to threaten that because I think it would antagonise Hazrabân more than it would help.) However, the threat still works because Tharbad are clearly petrified that we will call their bluff.

I think it's valuable to take a step back and look at the last update and what they offered us for a moment. Tharbad offered us half of their domain as a bribe, because they were so worried about us ratting them out. That does not suggest to me that this is a small motivator for them. Even if it's less populated, that's still a staggering offer, which shows how deeply they care about this. They must be quite profoundly desperate to offer something like that.

As much as it is ambitious, I think our proposal in some ways actually asks Tharbad for significantly less than this. They give up no territory. They can still get payments from the surrounding Middle Men tribes to contribute towards the defence they provide, if less penurious in scope. In addition, we are offering to build their wall, which they really wanted, provide skilled labour, and eventual trade, as well as make financial contributions to the League ourselves. That's a lot of juicy carrots there, and when you compare it to what they were already offering, I think it looks attractive or at least comparable.

Moreover, whilst this does in some sense mean we are dealing with the Middle Men as equals, it is still clear that the surrounding villages are in a subordinate position, even if they have certain rights. (We are also radicals, and have committed to viewing the Middle Men as fellow brothers and sisters as of the last vote: I think we have to play that out now.) This setup also deliberately plays to Tharbad's image of themselves as a defender and protector, not an oppressor. We are voluntarily offering to form a League in which they, not we, would be the predominant military power on land and the net financial beneficiary of League subsidy, for at least quite some years to come. That's actually quite a flattering offer, not a domineering one.

Lastly, I think there's an additional element here, and perhaps the most important one; the human element. Hazrabân acts proud, but he is a young man with confused feelings about his own heritage and his own legitimacy. In his interactions with Imrazôr and Inzilbeth, you can see how much he desperately craves the approval and validation of of a real, legitimate Númenórean prince. The fact that Imrazôr was unhappy with his justifications and almost lost his temper in their meeting actually seriously upset and shook Hazrabân, almost as it would a child who had been scolded by an adult role model.

Imrazôr can offer him that approval. Imrazôr is a centuries-old Númenórean Sea Lord, one of the Wise, who can read the minds of lesser men and speaks with a voice of command which even the earth and air will listen to. We wield a moral and spiritual authority which is essentially unimpeachable, representing a kind of status and legitimacy which Hazrabân has based his entire identity around idolising and trying to live up to, and that is a powerful asset if we choose to deploy it. I truly believe that just with our words, we can bring peace here, and help the men of Tharbad find their way back into the realm of decency and light.

 
I'm not sure how I feel about forming the league in general. I like it thematically, it fits with the general feel of the quest so far, but it gives a huge amount of power to Tharbad. Yes, they're getting less in tribute, but they're getting us in return, which is arguably much more powerful. No one else can rebuild the walls, no one else builds ships, no one else has shapers, no one else can make great works. We're going to make them an exceptionally more powerful military force, for good or ill.

That isn't to say it doesn't have any benefit for us, enriching the region as a whole will give us economic power in the long term, and this will likely help with making friends with the dwarves.

Regardless, I don't think promising to rebuild Tharbad's walls next turn is a reasonable thing to offer up. We have inspectors showing up and explaining to them that we sent all our shapers to a neighboring polity that we vassalized ourselves under is gonna be a hard sell.

In a few turns, maybe, but we haven't even set up our own colony yet. We have a ton of basic infrastructure to build, and we don't even have a native source of wood.
 
That's a reasonable point, and thank you for your critique.

In the proposal we are offering a lot, as well as asking for a lot. In some significant ways I think this is more generous to Tharbad than their offer to us, which is why I hope it has a good shot of working. In the longer term, as we grow wealthier from waterborne trade and gain more citizens, I think the balance of power will hopefully shift to become a more mutual one on land. And of course, right now, Tharbad would be as impotent against us on the sea or open river as we would be facing their walls, so there is bit of a balance there. We both bring things to the table that the other can't easily replicate*. Ultimately, an agreement like this does rely on an element of trust, including that we will not take the gifts of peace and use them to stab one another.

My hope would be that as far as rebuilding the wall goes, we would send a team of Shapers, possibly led by one of our Shaper heroes. They would then oversee the work, and direct unskilled and semi-skilled labour from Tharbad's own people. For most polities, you're right, this would basically absorb all of their skilled labour. But for us, with our crazy decision at the game start to not just double down but triple down on crafts and artistry, I hope this should be manageable. We are also building the Hall of Shapers this turn, which is described as helping manage projects at once, so I would hope we should be able to do at least one domestic construction project whilst also helping Tharbad.

This might still delay starting the harbour by another turn though, you're right, so there is undeniably a real trade-off here. Personally I feel trade and a diplomatic settlement to so many outstanding issues is worth it, but we are making a real investment here to get it, even if the deal works perfectly.


*(I am not so sure that they will become a naval power of their own out of this, even with our crafts, because we have a harbour and a shipwright, although I guess Tharbad eventually developing their own riverine force is not possible. They would be on the Gwathlo, however.)
 
[X] Plan Laying the Foundations

Audacity attracts me. Bold plans for bold peoples. Also appreciate getting us closer to tharbad without having to throw the middle men under a bridge.
 
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