- Location
- Sweden
[X] Conquer to the mountains. (Easier militarily, Revaunchists strengthened.)
Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)
@Redium Re: Nationalism, I suggest rereading the Tin Tribes discussion, Page 116-117. This universe perhaps does not correspond completely to our own, and many of the more brutal suppression methods are unavailable to the Ymaryn.
TLDR: Tin Tribes show proto-nationalistic tendencies (and will shut down production at essential times, triggering a death spiral). The Western Wall-conquered not!Slavic tribes show proto-nationalistic tendencies (and will screw us in the long term if we allow the conquest to persist). By comparison, Stymyr is likely to have even stronger proto-nationalistic tendencies and screw us even worse, even if our shared heritage "helps".
(It might be workable during a time of peaceful nondistraction. When we're about to fall into two other wars, hell no!)
Perhaps peace treaties really are impossible between peer powers (though, we seemed to do quite well with the Khemetri post-Epic Age). The situation is very different for a pair of unequal powers, however, the stronger of which doesn't care about attacking. The inequality, in this case, is the guarantor of the peace treaty. We need only convince the Stymyr of said inequality, and I don't think that "obliterating Stymyr's ability to act against us" is actually necessary for this.
Rather, it's a matter of showing Stymyr that the Old Ymaryn Empire--or close enough--has returned (which we're already close to doing; all we have left is to, yes, destroy their attacking army). They won't be eager for a repeat performance.
I'm somewhat sure this is a Greenshore thing. But Aranfan didn't answer my query, so 🤷
First, I seriously doubt the revaunchists are using arguments as sophisticated as "conquer until natural barriers so that we're immune to attack!" If they are "right", it is only in the much broader sense that we Peaced Out with X, and X later attacked.
But a very similar scenario already happened, with Hellas. We drove Hellas out, Hellas came for round 2; the revaunchists weren't strengthened or weakened (until we White Peaced) and didn't force us to utterly destroy Hellas.
And, on the other side of the equation, the more they're weakened, the less they're able to pull such shit.
Your scenario basically requires the Revaunchists to have proliferated the same arguments as the voters talking about natural barriers, and thereby being validated. This seems highly unlikely, both because the Ymaryn don't seem to care about natural barriers and due to the least-common-denominator nature of the revaunchists (in-universe, I imagine the speeches aren't so sophisticated, because you can't argue natural barriers to a crowd), calling for nonsensical measures rather than those that would actually accomplish their goals.
TLDR: Tin Tribes show proto-nationalistic tendencies (and will shut down production at essential times, triggering a death spiral). The Western Wall-conquered not!Slavic tribes show proto-nationalistic tendencies (and will screw us in the long term if we allow the conquest to persist). By comparison, Stymyr is likely to have even stronger proto-nationalistic tendencies and screw us even worse, even if our shared heritage "helps".
(It might be workable during a time of peaceful nondistraction. When we're about to fall into two other wars, hell no!)
There's a reason Stymyr didn't attack Greenshore for a millennium, and that we're not really worried about them sans distractions: they're not a true peer power to us. Our first act was to immediately achieve the bulk of our war goals.
Perhaps peace treaties really are impossible between peer powers (though, we seemed to do quite well with the Khemetri post-Epic Age). The situation is very different for a pair of unequal powers, however, the stronger of which doesn't care about attacking. The inequality, in this case, is the guarantor of the peace treaty. We need only convince the Stymyr of said inequality, and I don't think that "obliterating Stymyr's ability to act against us" is actually necessary for this.
Rather, it's a matter of showing Stymyr that the Old Ymaryn Empire--or close enough--has returned (which we're already close to doing; all we have left is to, yes, destroy their attacking army). They won't be eager for a repeat performance.
I'm somewhat sure this is a Greenshore thing. But Aranfan didn't answer my query, so 🤷
First, I seriously doubt the revaunchists are using arguments as sophisticated as "conquer until natural barriers so that we're immune to attack!" If they are "right", it is only in the much broader sense that we Peaced Out with X, and X later attacked.
But a very similar scenario already happened, with Hellas. We drove Hellas out, Hellas came for round 2; the revaunchists weren't strengthened or weakened (until we White Peaced) and didn't force us to utterly destroy Hellas.
And, on the other side of the equation, the more they're weakened, the less they're able to pull such shit.
Your scenario basically requires the Revaunchists to have proliferated the same arguments as the voters talking about natural barriers, and thereby being validated. This seems highly unlikely, both because the Ymaryn don't seem to care about natural barriers and due to the least-common-denominator nature of the revaunchists (in-universe, I imagine the speeches aren't so sophisticated, because you can't argue natural barriers to a crowd), calling for nonsensical measures rather than those that would actually accomplish their goals.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
I think so, given the precedent of Tin Tribes - Styrmyr are, after all, very vocally Not Ymaryn.
Our only *actual* goal is to secure Greenshore, as made clear by how orders were given to the military in the previous vote; pushing the fight into Styrmyr territory does obligate us to subjugate and administer that territory, as shown by the Hellas white peace.
[X] Conquer to the mountains. (Easier militarily, Revaunchists strengthened.)
@OliWhail You've misread. Aranfan specifically said no, in response to your suggestion:
Once we "conquer" the land, it's ours' to deal with forever. Which hits the failure mode described above and in other posts.
(The "Do not conquer" vote, on the other hand, is the one that allows for the possibility of... temporary conquest? Maneuvers on Styrmyr land, certainly, without being forced to permanently administer it.)
Once we "conquer" the land, it's ours' to deal with forever. Which hits the failure mode described above and in other posts.
(The "Do not conquer" vote, on the other hand, is the one that allows for the possibility of... temporary conquest? Maneuvers on Styrmyr land, certainly, without being forced to permanently administer it.)
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[X] Counter any military thrusts, but do not conquer beyond the traditional Greenshore borders. (Militarily harder, Revaunchists weakened.)
Removing maluses has a higher value than almost anything else. If the Syymyr retake Greenahore while we retake Thunder plateau we can turn around and wreck them again. Maybe not instantly, but eventually.
Removing action controlling maluses means we can play the game we want, not the game our maluses force us to play.
Removing maluses has a higher value than almost anything else. If the Syymyr retake Greenahore while we retake Thunder plateau we can turn around and wreck them again. Maybe not instantly, but eventually.
Removing action controlling maluses means we can play the game we want, not the game our maluses force us to play.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Counter any military thrusts, but do not conquer beyond the traditional Greenshore borders. (Militarily harder, Revaunchists weakened.)
- Location
- Sydney
[X] Conquer to the mountains. (Easier militarily, Revaunchists strengthened.)
Voting to " Counter any military thrusts " is much much more likely to lead to looting, and it is a step along the path towards conquest for loot.
Looting their own people doesn't seem like something the Ymaryn would do. Maybe if a battle is particularly bloody, and discipline is lost completely, but in that case the looters are criminals and will be treated as such.
Voting to " Counter any military thrusts " is much much more likely to lead to looting, and it is a step along the path towards conquest for loot.
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@Chrestomanci Looting is not the issue. The issue is death spiraling from proto-nationalist rebellions.
We already know (from Page 116-117) that the Tin Tribes alone would have caused us to death spiral (by withholding supplies and allowing land to be grabbed), and the not!Slavic tribes in Western Wall would likely screw us over. By comparison, the entire Stymyr would almost certainly screw us over while we're distracted by another two wars.
We already know (from Page 116-117) that the Tin Tribes alone would have caused us to death spiral (by withholding supplies and allowing land to be grabbed), and the not!Slavic tribes in Western Wall would likely screw us over. By comparison, the entire Stymyr would almost certainly screw us over while we're distracted by another two wars.
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- Location
- Sydney
The Tin Tribes had control over the strategic supplies of tin, and had the defensive position of living in a mountain range.
While the Tin Tribes were a trap vote that time, hopefully this time the choices are accurate.
We have weakened the Revanchists three times since then (give Tin tribes land back, White Peace Hellas, independent Amber Road) , and the Ymaryn should be far less prone to being assholes. Our goal is to weaken the Revanchists to the point that they easily disband once we have reclaimed our former borders, as long as the majority of the time we vote to weaken them it should be fine.
For example, when the Stymyr concede defeat we should offer the best terms we can.
Pamplona reforms are over, Praise the Sun is over, we have had more time to recover from the Great Khan. The Ymaryn's position is much better now than page 116, and death spiraling shouldn't happen at the drop of a hat anymore.
The Stymyr are far less able to screw us over when we have defensive borders (mountains), and are unable to mobilise their former subjects. Leaving them stronger, and able to seize Greenshore while we are distracted is the most likely way we will be screwed over.
Actually, both examples of us being screwed from page 116-117 were referring to our far future, should we choose to annex either the Tin Tribes or the not!Slavs in Western Wall.
The Tin Tribes would have death spiraled us during a future Great Powers war. The not!Slavic tribes would have screwed us over through unspecified means (but had to have been in the far future, as we weren't in any position to annex them at the time).
We haven't done anything in the 3 years since that would warrant any of that changing (yes, certain tasks expired, but they would have in the original examples as well). The warnings about proto-nationalism remain as accurate as ever, hence can be used for comparison with Stymyr... and the comparison isn't favorable.
Proto-nationalism happens in spite of (and because of) our occupying their land, irrespective of natural boundaries, so having natural boundaries is no security.
(While we're distracted by 2 wars, as we will be after conquering the Stymyr, is in this case, a prime setting for said screwing over to happen.)
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- Location
- United States
[X] Counter any military thrusts, but do not conquer beyond the traditional Greenshore borders. (Militarily harder, Revaunchists weakened.)
We are reuniting the Ymaryn Empire here.
We are not reuniting the Ymaryn Empire + Stymyr.
Sure, conquering to the mountains is more defensible, but one must also consider that half the reason why the Melkut Ymaryn existed and can possibly continue to exist is because of cultural inertia as much as anything else. We can't truly administer far off regions like the Thunder Plateau, but people believe we can and thus the fiction is kept alive. Trying to conquer and administer the Stymyr, who have never known Ymaryn rule, from such a distance will be a costly affair; one that I think is not worth the potential benefit of conquering to the mountains.
We are reuniting the Ymaryn Empire here.
We are not reuniting the Ymaryn Empire + Stymyr.
Sure, conquering to the mountains is more defensible, but one must also consider that half the reason why the Melkut Ymaryn existed and can possibly continue to exist is because of cultural inertia as much as anything else. We can't truly administer far off regions like the Thunder Plateau, but people believe we can and thus the fiction is kept alive. Trying to conquer and administer the Stymyr, who have never known Ymaryn rule, from such a distance will be a costly affair; one that I think is not worth the potential benefit of conquering to the mountains.
We should also consider that stymyr is not a potential rival the way some other powers are and taking their lands could lead to rebelions later coordinated with invasions from outside by powers who are rivals.
- Location
- Sydney
For the Tin Tribes, it wasn't our far future. It was a hypothetical Great Powers war during the age of bronze cannons (ie current period). Once tin is no longer the critical strategic metal, they would not be able cripple us at a vulnerable time.
The not!Slavic tribes problems would be from the precedent, if we subject the Tin Tribes to cultural genocide then we would attempt to do the same to the not!Slavic tribes. The precedent has been set by our Tin Tribes decision, the Ymaryn traditionalists have prevailed, and we are not genocidal.
If we are going to abuse the Stymyr people then the Tin Tribes precedent is worthless, and that WoG is inaccurate and cannot be used as evidence for this vote.
They want Greenshore, we just reclaimed it and have no intention of giving it back. We are stuck as a target of Stymyr proto-nationalism, having more or less of the land they claim will not change that.
Natural boundaries is the only way we have to reduce the danger from the Stymyr. We will be distracted by 2 wars soon, and cannot afford to let them screw us over by seizing Greenshore from us.
always_confused
Perpetually unwanted
- Location
- SEA
[X] Counter any military thrusts, but do not conquer beyond the traditional Greenshore borders. (Militarily harder, Revaunchists weakened.)
The problem is we won't abuse them. We will occupy them and then NOT abuse them sufficently to destroy their culture. This will lay the tinder for future rebels.
[X] Counter any military thrusts, but do not conquer beyond the traditional Greenshore borders. (Militarily harder, Revaunchists weakened.)
You can have a border without a natural barrier. We have the manpower to keep it patrolled and fortified. Prewar negotiations failed but they weren't terrible. Do whatever we have to to make them acknowledge they've lost but stick to our stated territorial claims. Of course Styrmyr want direct sea access but there's a honking great river that will take full size ships to their ports so long as they stay on good terms with us. As far as damages go, better to sphere them than bleed them - a trade agreement, preferential rates and rights for our shipping on their section (with quid pro to sweeten it even), long term embassies, that sort of thing.
You can have a border without a natural barrier. We have the manpower to keep it patrolled and fortified. Prewar negotiations failed but they weren't terrible. Do whatever we have to to make them acknowledge they've lost but stick to our stated territorial claims. Of course Styrmyr want direct sea access but there's a honking great river that will take full size ships to their ports so long as they stay on good terms with us. As far as damages go, better to sphere them than bleed them - a trade agreement, preferential rates and rights for our shipping on their section (with quid pro to sweeten it even), long term embassies, that sort of thing.
Stymyr is not our people and hadn't been for a long time.
Beside, loot is much broader in this context. Any time you conquer land, you get tax revenues and all the booties, and these booties will last for a while until you run out and have to rely on the lands' natural rate of production. And you think to yourself, "if I conquer more land, I'll get more money!"
Do we know who Stymyr is at war with (besides us)? Is it possible to sell them bombards? If we devote an action every now and then to keeping their enemies strong, would they be too distracted to strike back at us? Can we use Infiltrate actions on bordering powers to give advanced warning of military movement towards our borders?
Is there anything we can do to mitigate this threat short of conquering to the mountains?
Is there anything we can do to mitigate this threat short of conquering to the mountains?
Favorable deals(as long as it doesn't tempts Stymyr) and an invitation to the Redshore Games.
- Location
- Sydney
In my perception of the Ymaryn, the Stymyr culture can peacefully cohabit the Ymaryn Empire without being forced to rebel.
If occupying them without destroying their culture will inevitably produce rebels, then the Ymaryn culture is far far more malevolent than I have realised.
It also leads to the question how could a system unable to tolerate difference survive for so long. True we have lost much of the Old Ymaryn, but if we have lost that much then civil wars are inevitable as well.
'all the booties' is a bit vague, I'm not sure what you mean.
The Prestige gains? well that happens with every victorious war whether we conquer land or not. The solution is to avoid starting wars, not avoid winning them.
The expanded agricultural land? Not for a few more generations. Right now we are recovering from the Great Khan, and there is still significant former-farmland that can be restored far easier than breaking new ground.
Sure profitable tax revenues will eventually be produced after a few decades, but by that point the association with conquest will be lost. All the road-building and other things below the level of abstraction still cost the government to produce, and massive amounts of food will need to be transported to bring the granaries up to standard. For the Ymaryn, conquest is an expensive endevour involving significant work to bring the new lands up to the minimum standard of living.
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Although I don't think option 3 - all Tin Tribes people become full Ymaryn citizens with full benefits and their nobles become Ymaryn nobles - would have been a problem. There'd have been objections when their low status mine workers got miner's guild membership but I'd rather have faced those down than the Nestle style blind eye we're pulling at the moment (though I trust that @Aranfan wasn't pushing full slavery as the only moral and long term workable path.) There would be some assimilation as people adopt practices that improve quality of life and mores that let them get ahead in the wider society. That's not cultural genocide, we have no interest in stamping out their language, religion, family structure or art. It's up to them to maintain those things or not - cultures should serve people not the other way around. We would not be committing a crime to give them access to the same educational opportunities as anyone else in our territory.
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