Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

tryingtobewitty said:

The Bloody Moon Dream. Ling Qi stepped up for a test of character and then flunked it so hard it gave her a minor Heart Demon (not explicitly called that, but it was a negative multiplier to spiritual and physical cultivation) in exchange for a very minor Way bonus, half of which has since been rendered useless. It gave some cool narrative, but IMO the most valuable thing we got was a harsh reminder for the thread to consider character implications of votes.

That vote was 100% a trap option of the kind Anderein is describing, and it beat the highest-ranking non-trap option 86-20.

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It was less that she tried and failed, it's more that the thread valued shinies over character consistency, and chose to backtrack on the reason the scene even showed up the moment there was a reward for it.

It's one of the best moments in the quest to-date, because it showed Ling Qi as fallible in a way the Outer Sect parts of the quest never really did, and resulted in this subtext of Ling Qi not being satisfied with who she was and resulted in all of the really crazy self-sacrificing that got Zhengui to ask his mom big sis to promise to include him more.

The doomsaying and conspiracy theories about "trap options" are all getting pretty annoying.

The endgoal here is a compelling narrative, and I'm sure every option will be written fantastically. Yrsillar is publishing this all eventually. Trap options that get everyone killed for no reason wouldn't sell.

Anderein said:

Okay, fuck it, I'm writing an argument over this after all. By the definition I outlined above, I'm pretty damn sure picking CRX here is a trap option. My basic argument for calling it a trap is this: 1) CRX is the most obvious surface option, 2) there are thread tendencies that make it easy to predict it would probably be chosen, and 3) it's less likely to turn out well than you'd initially expect.

1) CRX is the obvious option to pick

* She's the one we know best, to an almost conspicuous degree. Two of the four were introduced in the larger arc of the expedition, we haven't seen Gan Guangli in months (and even before then, we didn't interact with him that much), and all three of our Spirits--the ones most likely to actually compete with CRX in the vote--were excluded.
* It's what Ling Qi would instinctively tend toward, because CRX is much closer to her innermost circle of care than anyone else here.
* If there's a reward in bond or character development for choosing a character here, then as the most important figure going forward (and the one we have the strongest Bond with), she's the most desirable choice. Even if you like any of the other three, they're very unlikely to simply leave or to change loyalties.
* CRX is, on the surface, the strongest and the most disciplined of the group. She could reasonably be expected to resist temptation of the sort they're apparently experiencing.

2) It's obvious that this thread's audience in particular would pick this

* Again, she's the one we know best, and also therefore the one we (on average) like best. People are going to be most interested in the outcome.
* This is the sequel to a quest where character relationships had to be constantly maintained or else there'd be consequences. Even if that's no longer the case here in Threads, I'd be surprised if this had no lingering effect pushing people toward consolidating around favored/important characters.
* Again, the point about rewards. This has even been repeatedly noted in the thread iteself.
* More than that, this thread's voting tends toward high risk-high reward. The Bloody Moon trial, taking the knife to the throat, the last vote to seek out the one of the three Spirits most interested in killing people--it's easy to predict that the thread would risk it, even if people were to say, "hey, this seems like a risk." Because the voters consistently take risks!

3) The problems with picking CRX aren't immediately obvious

* @tryingtobewitty had a good point on this, related to Ling Qi's specific experience with this sort of attack:



* I pointed out previously that CRX's last interlude (Clockwork Blades) suggests CRX is closer to believing her mother is a long-term problem than she is willing to admit. If she's repressing that realization, then a dream that removes the conflict becomes much more appealing, because if it's wrong then everything changes. This is a specific, predictable weak point in her mental armor!
* I'd bet money that CRX has the least experience with overcoming dreams and illusions of anyone in the party, because she's a ducal and a dispel-specialist and her mother has historical conflicts with Moon spirits and IIRC she's never really described as having undergone any notable sect trials (of the sort Ling Qi did to get her Argent Arts, or the Bloody Moon trial) and Ling Qi, the Moon specialist she knows best, doesn't attack in the way they're experiencing here. This is an out-of-context problem for her to a much larger degree than anyone else.
* CRX's self-perception is that she's inhuman to a larger degree than is actually true, in large part because she has lingering and incompletely addressed emotional trauma related to her mother. I would expect she's also the least well-equipped of the party to get past any emotional attack that slips past her armor, especially when it's delivered in a medium with which she has (again) the least experience dealing with.

I called this a "big red button" before, and that's because I'm pretty sure it's designed to get our attention, get voted in without great consideration, and then result in obvious, predictable consequences. There's a point where escalating risks does not correspond with escalation of related rewards, and I think we're well past that point.

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I have a major problem with this analysis. Your third point is that the problems of picking Cai are not immediately obvious. Than you describe the problems that we may suffer. However you transition that to concluding that picking Cai will lead to obvious consequences. You outline some problems, of which many I agree with, but you use those to conclude that we should pick someone else. That the consequences for picking Cai are uniquely bad.

Each of these options is going to have problems. I don't see that as a reason to avoid picking someone. Everyone is going to have consequences from the dream. Why is picking to try and free Cai a uniquely terrible consequence? Freeing one person frees everyone, but it doesn't remove the dream they had. They won't forget. The consequences of Cai seeing her perfect dream are going to stay whether she is the one we free or not. Because of that I fail to see why that is an argument against freeing her.

Smothering White: "Alright, so it looks like she wants her mother's approval. So she looks down at her from her throne at Xiangmen"
CRX panics like she's in mortal danger
Smothering White: "That's a bust, what if she gives her a hug?"
CRX reacts as if Shenhua's arms are swords
Smothering White: "She sends a letter?"
CRX feels mortal terror
Smothering White: "What the hell is going on here? You know what, screw it. Ling QI comes in and reports that everything has gone just as planned"
CRX feels growing dread

Neshuakadal said:

I have a major problem with this analysis. Your third point is that the problems of picking Cai are not immediately obvious. Than you describe the problems that we may suffer. However you transition that to concluding that picking Cai will lead to obvious consequences. You outline some problems, of which many I agree with, but you use those to conclude that we should pick someone else. That the consequences for picking Cai are uniquely bad.

Each of these options is going to have problems. I don't see that as a reason to avoid picking someone. Everyone is going to have consequences from the dream. Why is picking to try and free Cai a uniquely terrible consequence? Freeing one person frees everyone, but it doesn't remove the dream they had. The consequences of Cai seeing her perfect dream are going to stay whether she is the one we free or not. Because of that I fail to see why that is an argument against freeing her.

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Because my arguments in the third part are about how difficult it will be to remove her from the dream. Bullet by bullet, referring back to my post above:
* CRX can't be freed in the way Ling Qi freed herself, due to the lack of an obvious thread to pull.
* CRX has a personal reason to want to believe a dream if it removes a conflict that she's still denying exists.
* CRX very likely has limited experience dealing with this kind of illusion.
* CRX very likely has limited experience overcoming this sort of emotional attack.

Anderein said:

Because my arguments in the third part are about how difficult it will be to remove her from the dream. Bullet by bullet, referring back to my post above:
* CRX can't be freed in the way Ling Qi freed herself, due to the lack of an obvious thread to pull.
* CRX has a personal reason to want to believe a dream if it removes a conflict that she's still denying exists.
* CRX very likely has limited experience dealing with this kind of illusion.
* CRX very likely has limited experience overcoming this sort of emotional attack.

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Yet these bullet points can be applied to anyone.

We don't know the other characters well enough to identify obvious threads to pull.
People deny that conflicts exists all the time. That's not unique to CRX.
The inner sect or outer sect does not provide amply chances in dealing with illusion or emotional attacks. They are rare. Again a problem not unique to CRX.

Your points are overbroad and can be applied to anyone. Even when you get down to the nitty gritty details in your previous post it doesn't remove the fact that everyone in this party is going to be a struggle to pull out. We could post nitty gritty details about how hard each of the party members will be to pull out. Your post is unconvincing in why CRX is uniquely difficult to pull out.

Anderein said:

Because my arguments in the third part are about how difficult it will be to remove her from the dream. Bullet by bullet, referring back to my post above:
* CRX can't be freed in the way Ling Qi freed herself, due to the lack of an obvious thread to pull.
* CRX has a personal reason to want to believe a dream if it removes a conflict that she's still denying exists.
* CRX very likely has limited experience dealing with this kind of illusion.
* CRX very likely has limited experience overcoming this sort of emotional attack.

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You are kinda ignoring all the context which makes CRX easier than everyone else. Black Sky Yearning said she had the least darkness in her. Ling Qi has personal experience in helping pull CRX out of mental problems. Ling Qi (and the thread) actually understand CRX which make it easier to choose the better vote options.

And of course from a solely in character perspective, Ling Qi is the closest to CRX by far and would pick her over these charas any day of the week

Like its not gonna be a walk in the park no matter which character. But sometimes the obvious answer is obvious because it makes the most sense. Not because its a "trap vote". Like come on, barely anything resembling trap votes has happened. Yrsillar is just not that type of writer.

Neshuakadal said:

Yet these bullet points can be applied to anyone.

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No they can't.

reignonyrparade said:

No they can't.

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Why not? I think I did in the post you quoted. Why can't those bullet points be applied to others?

There's an obvious thread to pull: Shenhua. Her relationship with Shenhua is so incredibly tied up with her goals that excluding her will feel unnatural while the relationship includes so much trauma that there cannot be a positive interaction.

My view is that CRX cannot imagine herself actually being happy in any kind of sustained way and the spirit lacks the emotional intelligence to play psychologist and show how this could actually happen.

When we escaped from Zeqing's version of this it was for the same reason: everyone being together and happy was so unimaginable that it felt fake.

[X] Meng Dan

EDIT: My opinion is, the Trap Option was picking the Smothering White. This is just about where on the body the jaws of the trap close.

this is just more of the 'characters with screentime get votes for more screentime' syndrome that plagued the latter half of last thread.

Zeful said:

It was less that she tried and failed, it's more that the thread valued shinies over character consistency, and chose to backtrack on the reason the scene even showed up the moment there was a reward for it.

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That is the failure I was talking about, yes. It was a failure of character for Ling Qi, and it was a failure to spot the predictable consequences for the thread.

Neshuakadal said:

We don't know the other characters well enough to identify obvious threads to pull.
People deny that conflicts exists all the time. That's not unique to CRX.
The inner sect or outer sect does not provide amply chances in dealing with illusion or emotional attacks. They are rare. Again a problem not unique to CRX.

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1. Even if those threads aren't immediately obvious to us, they will at least exist. For CRX, they won't, because her desires align too well.
2. CRX is unique (among this group) in that the conflicts she wants to deny are entirely internal. Her view on all her problems is that they wouldn't be problems if she was just better, so her dream will be about how awesome everything is now that she's magically good enough to resolve all her problems (or never have them in the first place). Contrast Ling Qi's dream, where the papered-over conflict was between her desires and her friends' desires, and Ling Qi could not deny it without disregarding her friends. Dream-CRX will only be disregarding her real self, and she's already proven willing to do that.
3. The others will have been affected by illusion or emotional attacks before. CRX has no experience in dealing with illusion or emotional attacks that actually work on her. This is a problem unique to her.

EDIT: Why am I confident in saying 2 and 3 are unique to CRX? For 2, it's the nature of her goals - her main desire is to support everyone else's desires in life. For 3, it's her overwhelming anti-illusion power - it is overwhelmingly likely that this is the first time she's ever encountered something that beat her anti-illusion defenses. The others lack CRX's defenses and have plenty of combat experience - Xia Lin as a soldier, Meng Dan as an archivist in a library of uncontrolled spirits. Given their careers, it is likely each of them has fought illusionists before, and given their comparatively lacking defenses, it is likely they have been affected at least once (more so for Meng Dan than for Xia Lin.)

tryingtobewitty said:

That is the failure I was talking about, yes. It was a failure of character for Ling Qi, and it was a failure to spot the predictable consequences for the thread.


1. Even if those threads aren't immediately obvious to us, they will at least exist. For CRX, they won't, because her desires align too well.
2. CRX is unique (among this group) in that the conflicts she wants to deny are entirely internal. Her view on all her problems is that they wouldn't be problems if she was just better, so her dream will be about how awesome everything is now that she's magically good enough to resolve all her problems (or never have them in the first place). Contrast Ling Qi's dream, where the papered-over conflict was between her desires and her friends' desires, and Ling Qi could not deny it without disregarding her friends. Dream-CRX will only be disregarding her real self, and she's already proven willing to do that.
3. The others will have been affected by illusion or emotional attacks before. CRX has no experience in dealing with illusion or emotional attacks that actually work on her. This is a problem unique to her.

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You can't say this at all because we like don't know anything about GG, Xia lin or meng dan. We have very little knowledge on what they have faced and what they haven't. It's complete supposition here.

Anderein said:

Okay, fuck it, I'm writing an argument over this after all. By the definition I outlined above, I'm pretty damn sure picking CRX here is a trap option. My basic argument for calling it a trap is this: 1) CRX is the most obvious surface option, 2) there are thread tendencies that make it easy to predict it would probably be chosen, and 3) it's less likely to turn out well than you'd initially expect.

1) CRX is the obvious option to pick

* She's the one we know best, to an almost conspicuous degree. Two of the four were introduced in the larger arc of the expedition, we haven't seen Gan Guangli in months (and even before then, we didn't interact with him that much), and all three of our Spirits--the ones most likely to actually compete with CRX in the vote--were excluded.
* It's what Ling Qi would instinctively tend toward, because CRX is much closer to her innermost circle of care than anyone else here.
* If there's a reward in bond or character development for choosing a character here, then as the most important figure going forward (and the one we have the strongest Bond with), she's the most desirable choice. Even if you like any of the other three, they're very unlikely to simply leave or to change loyalties.
* CRX is, on the surface, the strongest and the most disciplined of the group. She could reasonably be expected to resist temptation of the sort they're apparently experiencing.

2) It's obvious that this thread's audience in particular would pick this

* Again, she's the one we know best, and also therefore the one we (on average) like best. People are going to be most interested in the outcome.
* This is the sequel to a quest where character relationships had to be constantly maintained or else there'd be consequences. Even if that's no longer the case here in Threads, I'd be surprised if this had no lingering effect pushing people toward consolidating around favored/important characters.
* Again, the point about rewards. This has even been repeatedly noted in the thread iteself.
* More than that, this thread's voting tends toward high risk-high reward. The Bloody Moon trial, taking the knife to the throat, the last vote to seek out the one of the three Spirits most interested in killing people--it's easy to predict that the thread would risk it, even if people were to say, "hey, this seems like a risk." Because the voters consistently take risks!

3) The problems with picking CRX aren't immediately obvious

* @tryingtobewitty had a good point on this, related to Ling Qi's specific experience with this sort of attack:

* I pointed out previously that CRX's last interlude (Clockwork Blades) suggests CRX is closer to believing her mother is a long-term problem than she is willing to admit. If she's repressing that realization, then a dream that removes the conflict becomes much more appealing, because if it's wrong then everything changes. This is a specific, predictable weak point in her mental armor!
* I'd bet money that CRX has the least experience with overcoming dreams and illusions of anyone in the party, because she's a ducal and a dispel-specialist and her mother has historical conflicts with Moon spirits and IIRC she's never really described as having undergone any notable sect trials (of the sort Ling Qi did to get her Argent Arts, or the Bloody Moon trial) and Ling Qi, the Moon specialist she knows best, doesn't attack in the way they're experiencing here. This is an out-of-context problem for her to a much larger degree than anyone else.
* CRX's self-perception is that she's inhuman to a larger degree than is actually true, in large part because she has lingering and incompletely addressed emotional trauma related to her mother. I would expect she's also the least well-equipped of the party to get past any emotional attack that slips past her armor, especially when it's delivered in a medium with which she has (again) the least experience dealing with.

I called this a "big red button" before, and that's because I'm pretty sure it's designed to get our attention, get voted in without great consideration, and then result in obvious, predictable consequences. There's a point where escalating risks does not correspond with escalation of related rewards, and I think we're well past that point.

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Anderein said:

Because my arguments in the third part are about how difficult it will be to remove her from the dream. Bullet by bullet, referring back to my post above:
* CRX can't be freed in the way Ling Qi freed herself, due to the lack of an obvious thread to pull.
* CRX has a personal reason to want to believe a dream if it removes a conflict that she's still denying exists.
* CRX very likely has limited experience dealing with this kind of illusion.
* CRX very likely has limited experience overcoming this sort of emotional attack.

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I essentially agree with points one and two that you are making. That doesn't appear to be in dispute. What appears to be in dispute is how uniquely difficult it would be to remove Cai Renxiang from the desirous dream. And, let's be honest here, I do strongly dispute the four assertions of how it would be uniquely difficult to remove Cai Renxiang from the dream.

1. CRX can't be freed in the way Ling Qi freed herself, due to the lack of an obvious thread to pull.

This does not seem to be supported by the argument. Any interaction between CRX and her mother that is framed as a perfect reality will have obvious threads to pull to unravel it. CRX's relation with Shenhua is largely defined by the tension and fear that CRX has regarding her mother (In that the tension of achieving the ever-increasing demands of her mother in an effort to win approval and support as well as the fear of the consequences of failure) which means any dream which purports to solve these problems also induce a dissonance with the very thing that has defined the relationship between them. This would be the obvious thread to pull to unravel the perfect dream if it relates to Shenhua. Even the removal of Shenhua causes a dissonance because for CRX, Shenhua is a constant as sure as gravity, the removal of which causes openings to poke and prod into realizing the disconnect between perfection and reality.

2. CRX has a personal reason to want to believe a dream if it removes a conflict that she's still denying exists.

This is not unique to CRX. The vast majority of people have multiple desires that are in conflict with each other. It is such that they can not be achieved perfectly in harmony. These would hardly be desirous dreams if people didn't have personal reasons to believe the dream that is being shown to them. Those personal reasons are all more potent if they resolve or sidestep conflicts that people are still denying to exists, and CRX is not the only one that will have problems with their visions that they are denying to exist.

3. CRX very likely has limited experience dealing with this kind of illusion.

I don't believe that. Shenhua fought and usurped the Hui who are known for their skill in illusions, traps, and skills in the dreaming realm. It has also been noted that there are still Hui cults running around causing problems that the White Plumes go out and deal with. Given this, it would be the height of foolishness to not prepare the only heir (at least for a while) regarding the dangers of the predecessors. CRX has received extensive training before attending to the Sect and while she likely hasn't had to deal with such illusions while attending the Sect, it is unlikely that such an avenue of attack was neglected in her previous training.

4. CRX very likely has limited experience overcoming this sort of emotional attack.

Again, this seems like a stretch. CRX has incredible control over her emotions and has developed considerable skill in divorcing her emotions from what actions need to be taken. Given her control over her emotions, it seems incongruous to say that CRX has unique troubles overcoming emotional attacks.


The most troubling thing I see about this argument is that it doesn't actually address the more obvious problems with choosing CRX, and instead seems to try and interpret possible problems with choosing CRX. It doesn't address the problems of running out of time and being in CRX's head when Liming activates and starts puppeting CRX. It doesn't address the relational problems of CRX, a very private person, being exposed to Ling Qi in an unsettlingly intimate manner, and it doesn't seem to address the issues that Ling Qi might have with what CRX's perfect dream might be, especially since CRX is her liege.

Like, there are significant problems and difficulties with choosing CRX, that are unique to CRX and her relation with Ling Qi, but those problems don't relate to unique difficulties with trying to free CRX from this dream. Again, CRX is the most obvious target for this choice which makes sense given how things have lead up to this as well as the obvious problems that could arise from such an interaction between CRX and Ling Qi. But that doesn't diminish the reasons why people are choosing CRX.

tryingtobewitty said:

1. Even if those threads aren't immediately obvious to us, they will at least exist. For CRX, they won't, because her desires align too well.
2. CRX is unique (among this group) in that the conflicts she wants to deny are entirely internal. Her view on all her problems is that they wouldn't be problems if she was just better, so her dream will be about how awesome everything is now that she's magically good enough to resolve all her problems (or never have them in the first place). Contrast Ling Qi's dream, where the papered-over conflict was between her desires and her friends' desires, and Ling Qi could not deny it without disregarding her friends. Dream-CRX will only be disregarding her real self, and she's already proven willing to do that.
3. The others will have been affected by illusion or emotional attacks before. CRX has no experience in dealing with illusion or emotional attacks that actually work on her. This is a problem unique to her.

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Lets start with number 3. Do you have any proof of this? Either that others in our group are experienced with illusion or emotional attacks or that CRX has no experience with them. I don't think either of these premises have evidence to support them. We just don't know if the statement is true or not.

Now number 2. We don't know what conflicts the group has, outside of a basic understanding of some, because we are only bond one. We just don't know enough about them to make this claim. GG may also believe that if he was only better, if had only gotten into the inner sect, then the problems he faces wouldn't exist. I think you would struggle in even showing that CRX is unique in her conflicts.

Now onto number 1. CRX has repeatedly mentioned that how achieving her dream is a task beyond the life of a single cultivator. That could be a very big thread to pull on, while also tying us very nicely back, narratively, to the bandit attack and the deep conversation we had then.

[X] Cai Renxiang

[X]Cai Renxiang
[X]Xia Lin

Anderein said:

Okay, fuck it, I'm writing an argument over this after all. By the definition I outlined above, I'm pretty damn sure picking CRX here is a trap option. My basic argument for calling it a trap is this: 1) CRX is the most obvious surface option, 2) there are thread tendencies that make it easy to predict it would probably be chosen, and 3) it's less likely to turn out well than you'd initially expect.

1) CRX is the obvious option to pick

* She's the one we know best, to an almost conspicuous degree. Two of the four were introduced in the larger arc of the expedition, we haven't seen Gan Guangli in months (and even before then, we didn't interact with him that much), and all three of our Spirits--the ones most likely to actually compete with CRX in the vote--were excluded.
* It's what Ling Qi would instinctively tend toward, because CRX is much closer to her innermost circle of care than anyone else here.
* If there's a reward in bond or character development for choosing a character here, then as the most important figure going forward (and the one we have the strongest Bond with), she's the most desirable choice. Even if you like any of the other three, they're very unlikely to simply leave or to change loyalties.
* CRX is, on the surface, the strongest and the most disciplined of the group. She could reasonably be expected to resist temptation of the sort they're apparently experiencing.

2) It's obvious that this thread's audience in particular would pick this

* Again, she's the one we know best, and also therefore the one we (on average) like best. People are going to be most interested in the outcome.
* This is the sequel to a quest where character relationships had to be constantly maintained or else there'd be consequences. Even if that's no longer the case here in Threads, I'd be surprised if this had no lingering effect pushing people toward consolidating around favored/important characters.
* Again, the point about rewards. This has even been repeatedly noted in the thread iteself.
* More than that, this thread's voting tends toward high risk-high reward. The Bloody Moon trial, taking the knife to the throat, the last vote to seek out the one of the three Spirits most interested in killing people--it's easy to predict that the thread would risk it, even if people were to say, "hey, this seems like a risk." Because the voters consistently take risks!

3) The problems with picking CRX aren't immediately obvious

* @tryingtobewitty had a good point on this, related to Ling Qi's specific experience with this sort of attack:



* I pointed out previously that CRX's last interlude (Clockwork Blades) suggests CRX is closer to believing her mother is a long-term problem than she is willing to admit. If she's repressing that realization, then a dream that removes the conflict becomes much more appealing, because if it's wrong then everything changes. This is a specific, predictable weak point in her mental armor!
* I'd bet money that CRX has the least experience with overcoming dreams and illusions of anyone in the party, because she's a ducal and a dispel-specialist and her mother has historical conflicts with Moon spirits and IIRC she's never really described as having undergone any notable sect trials (of the sort Ling Qi did to get her Argent Arts, or the Bloody Moon trial) and Ling Qi, the Moon specialist she knows best, doesn't attack in the way they're experiencing here. This is an out-of-context problem for her to a much larger degree than anyone else.
* CRX's self-perception is that she's inhuman to a larger degree than is actually true, in large part because she has lingering and incompletely addressed emotional trauma related to her mother. I would expect she's also the least well-equipped of the party to get past any emotional attack that slips past her armor, especially when it's delivered in a medium with which she has (again) the least experience dealing with.

I called this a "big red button" before, and that's because I'm pretty sure it's designed to get our attention, get voted in without great consideration, and then result in obvious, predictable consequences. There's a point where escalating risks does not correspond with escalation of related rewards, and I think we're well past that point.

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So this is a lot of effort put forward to identify a trap when yrs does not do trap options and has explicitly said so.

It is frankly, kinda off putting on the face of it to approach a vote from that perspective and then say there are obvious dangers. Of course there are!

But let's start and go in order of your points.

Of course CRX is the obvious pick. We've spent time working on our relationship with her. Of course CRX is out of everyone here closer to the inner circle of Ling Qi, because we made it so intentionally. The idea that she is the most obvious pick is not some outstanding or profound statement that highlights why it'd be a threat to pick her. It's a statement of the obvious result of our prior actions.

For point two, yes we like to pick high risk high reward. It tends to work out. However, from my perspective sitting here the association your trying to draw to the Bloody Moon trial falls flat for a very specific reason. The option we picked then pretty directly contravened character development Ling Qi had had up to that point in Threads, and I even made a point about it so strongly that I left this quest for several months when I saw the result, which was bad not because it was a trap but because it directly contravened her character development by throwing old trauma into her face. Of course it went bad, she was reliving feelings she hadn't felt since she was on the street. After she processed it and other stuff happened, she grew stronger as a person.

Right now, one of the reasons that makes Renxiang obvious, is that we've spent so much time trying to understand her and connect with her. Since back in Forge, Ling Qi has been trying to understand what Renxiang wants and she still does not grasp that completely, because the world Renxiang wants contains components that are hard for Ling Qi to visualize due to her background. Here in front of us is an option for Ling Qi to be able to see that world and or what Renxiang wants for herself. That's a pretty compelling reason to take it, since its drilling down to a fundamental tension still present in their relationship which needs some kind of resolution.

The third point is dubious on the face of it due to one reason. CRX is learning in the footsteps of a White who basically mainlined Perception so hard its been weaponized. And while she had trouble with one and did not gain an insight from it, that art was a wide range attack art. Nothing has been said about her having difficulties with a general resistance to mental effects, and more than that her internal focused domain is one that Ling Qi has viewed as something trying to be a perfect mirror-like warrior which implies some kind of general resistance to change due to the nature of internal domains and how hers was expressed.

Your middle bit in particular is not based on anything in the text. We don't know what she was exposed to and so can't make statements on whether she has the least experience out of anyone here with dream stuff. The other two bits are valid, and potential pitfalls, but they're social ones and the last one is one Ling Qi has encountered before and know is one of Renxiang's foibles.

Now the implied dangers, there's a bit of a lack of any kind of specifics so I'm going to make a point.

Off the top of my head I can think of a few things that could go wrong:

-We're going into the dreamspace of another cultivator, one who is more powerful than Ling Qi and who is bound to a violent spirit dress that has lifesaving functions that can stand against fifth realm cultivators. This is dangerous in terms of power.
-We could get stuck in the dream as Ling Qi becomes enamored with the world Renxiang creates. She wants a better place for her family and follows Renxiang because she think's the girl's world can provide that. How exactly we get out of it is up to question, but Liming is charging up a whammy.
-She might realize she hates it, which brings into question her loyalty to Renxiang, which would require development afterwards to rectify.
-She might get bitch slapped by either of Liming or CRX and be hurt for the rest of the travel. How that evolves will shape the story going forward.
-Their relationship could deteriorate because of things that happen in there. Such things are recoverable, look at Meizhen.

All of these failstates probably lead to Liming doing something faster or more violently but we don't actually know that.

None of these make me less inclined to vote for CRX, because we know her better and she's our actual friend here and if there's one thing Ling Qi has done consistently since the start of Forge is that she's stuck by her best friends. Meizhen vs Kang on the road, Xiulan during the first Thunderdome (IIRC, might of been the second), Xiulan during that bit where she got stuck in a cave with Fan Yu and we evac'd her, Suyin and Ling Qi's adventures, taking the knife for Xiulan, acting to preserve the lives of her friends and everyone else there in the crater.

Ling Qi is a person whose morality is bent on sticking to her friends/those in her monkey sphere, with only minor attention given to characters who do not share such bonds. Ling Qi not diving in to help CRX regardless of the risks would be unusual for her and require some serious mental gymnastics on her part.

And with all of that said, because Ling Qi diving in to help her friends is consistent with her development so far, it cannot be like the Bloody Moon option on a fundamental level. Because that was an ugly reminder of a person she hadn't been for over a year.

Thor's Twin said:

I essentially agree with points one and two that you are making. That doesn't appear to be in dispute. What appears to be in dispute is how uniquely difficult it would be to remove Cai Renxiang from the desirous dream. And, let's be honest here, I do strongly dispute the four assertions of how it would be uniquely difficult to remove Cai Renxiang from the dream.

1. CRX can't be freed in the way Ling Qi freed herself, due to the lack of an obvious thread to pull.

This does not seem to be supported by the argument. Any interaction between CRX and her mother that is framed as a perfect reality will have obvious threads to pull to unravel it. CRX's relation with Shenhua is largely defined by the tension and fear that CRX has regarding her mother (In that the tension of achieving the ever-increasing demands of her mother in an effort to win approval and support as well as the fear of the consequences of failure) which means any dream which purports to solve these problems also induce a dissonance with the very thing that has defined the relationship between them. This would be the obvious thread to pull to unravel the perfect dream if it relates to Shenhua. Even the removal of Shenhua causes a dissonance because for CRX, Shenhua is a constant as sure as gravity, the removal of which causes openings to poke and prod into realizing the disconnect between perfection and reality.

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The thing is, the dream can invent history, and CRX does believe that the problems can be solved or else she'd be on a different path. Part of what let Ling Qi free herself is that the threads she pulled were things that she couldn't imagine actually happening, even when papered over--a true contradiction, not merely a currently-problematic tangle.

2. CRX has a personal reason to want to believe a dream if it removes a conflict that she's still denying exists.

This is not unique to CRX. The vast majority of people have multiple desires that are in conflict with each other. It is such that they can not be achieved perfectly in harmony. These would hardly be desirous dreams if people didn't have personal reasons to believe the dream that is being shown to them. Those personal reasons are all more potent if they resolve or sidestep conflicts that people are still denying to exists, and CRX is not the only one that will have problems with their visions that they are denying to exist.

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Do you think any of the other three have deep-seated conflicts that make it difficult or impossible for them to continue serving the Cai? Because even if the others have conflicts, I don't believe they have the level of conflict. It's one thing to be cut, it's another to lose an arm.

3. CRX very likely has limited experience dealing with this kind of illusion.

I don't believe that. Shenhua fought and usurped the Hui who are known for their skill in illusions, traps, and skills in the dreaming realm. It has also been noted that there are still Hui cults running around causing problems that the White Plumes go out and deal with. Given this, it would be the height of foolishness to not prepare the only heir (at least for a while) regarding the dangers of the predecessors. CRX has received extensive training before attending to the Sect and while she likely hasn't had to deal with such illusions while attending the Sect, it is unlikely that such an avenue of attack was neglected in her previous training.

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Even if we grant that such training happened, and we also grant that it was extensive, and we also grant that it was focused on overcoming the dream by pure will and wit rather than using the signature dispelling Arts of the Cai--

Even if we grant all that, it still happened when she was an early Red, almost two years ago, when she had a considerably different set of senses and a fairly different way of looking at the world. I'm skeptical that it's very applicable, or that she can reflexively apply it.

4. CRX very likely has limited experience overcoming this sort of emotional attack.

Again, this seems like a stretch. CRX has incredible control over her emotions and has developed considerable skill in divorcing her emotions from what actions need to be taken. Given her control over her emotions, it seems incongruous to say that CRX has unique troubles overcoming emotional attacks.

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Both of the things you cite are defenses--I'd compare them to having a good shield and good armor. I'm talking more about resilience, the ability to heal after sustaining that damage. You can't block a Cyan attack at her level of Green, so I don't put much value in that shield or armor in this circumstance.

Trauma is failing to heal emotional damage before it becomes permanent and failing to heal it afterward, and CRX has a lot of unhealed trauma she's still dealing with. Her whole idea that she's inhuman and irreparably damaged isn't really a compatible mindset with developing good resilience.

The most troubling thing I see about this argument is that it doesn't actually address the more obvious problems with choosing CRX, and instead seems to try and interpret possible problems with choosing CRX. It doesn't address the problems of running out of time and being in CRX's head when Liming activates and starts puppeting CRX. It doesn't address the relational problems of CRX, a very private person, being exposed to Ling Qi in an unsettlingly intimate manner, and it doesn't seem to address the issues that Ling Qi might have with what CRX's perfect dream might be, especially since CRX is her liege.

Like, there are significant problems and difficulties with choosing CRX, that are unique to CRX and her relation with Ling Qi, but those problems don't relate to unique difficulties with trying to free CRX from this dream. Again, CRX is the most obvious target for this choice which makes sense given how things have lead up to this as well as the obvious problems that could arise from such an interaction between CRX and Ling Qi. But that doesn't diminish the reasons why people are choosing CRX.

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I didn't address those because:
* Being in CRX's head when Liming activates while next to a hostile Cyan very well might be the sort of "game over" theoretical situation that, unfortunately, gets people chanting "doomsaying! doomsaying!" rather than responding to your points. That's happened at least once already, but I may as well work on harm reduction.
* The relational problems are fine, because they're the type that can be worked out. I'm not too worried about them.

Neshuakadal said:

Lets start with number 3. Do you have any proof of this? Either that others in our group are experienced with illusion or emotional attacks or that CRX has no experience with them. I don't think either of these premises have evidence to support them. We just don't know if the statement is true or not.

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Please go back to my original post, rather than the simplification I laid out. I'd rather not reiterate too much.

Now number 2. We don't know what conflicts the group has, outside of a basic understanding of some, because we are only bond one. We just don't know enough about them to make this claim. GG may also believe that if he was only better, if had only gotten into the inner sect, then the problems he faces wouldn't exist. I think you would struggle in even showing that CRX is unique in her conflicts.

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See my response above. The difference here is a matter of extent.

Now onto number 1. CRX has repeatedly mentioned that how achieving her dream is a task beyond the life of a single cultivator. That could be a very big thread to pull on, while also tying us very nicely back, narratively, to the bandit attack and the deep conversation we had then.

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See my response above. It's about outright contradiction, not mere problems.

[X] Gan Guangli