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There is no emotion... (A Jedi Order Quest)

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TaliesinSkye said:
We can switch to many students now and use one student later, we just cannot use both at once.

We need the many students doctrine available now or we're going to cripple our Jedi supply by being unable to train most of our initiates into padawans. This isn't really optional, and it cannot be put off. Without it we will only be able to train 8 padawans of our many more initiates, which we cannot afford.

Learning from the Past is great but we can invest in it later when we're not overloaded with students. Plus, this option will open up the advanced techs for many students one teacher and there might be very strong options there.

Arca Jeth's holocron is the best choice because he knew Battle Meditation, which is the single most significant force ability in any war. If he can teach it we would have more than just Bastila to swing major battles.

I beg and urge everyone to vote for this plan:

[X] Plan Expansion

More Knights Sooner gets us a lot less actual knights. We get 25 more knights with Plan Expansion. Please, please change your votes.

@buli-buli @One Autumn Leaf @AlysPower @Qudrim8054 @Hunter531 @EyeOfSauron
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The many students tech does nothing to help with working through the backlog of initiates we have to train. It just gives a bonus to recruitment quantity, which is the last thing we need.
 
Changed my vote since going backwards from the last two times we had this debate is not something I want to see.

Also FYI More Knights Sooner has been split into two in the tally for some reason.
 
Out of curiousity Voikirium do the Jedi Temples at Obroa-skai noted as a center for data analysis, or H'ratth noted for training the best of the Jedi healers, exist at this time if so the Obroa-skai academy would be a good center for the Education Corps, and H'ratth would be a good center for the Medical Corps. I would suggest a base for the Exploration Corps except that its noted they were typically based on Praxeum ships with secondary offices at Republic Ordinance Regional Depots and the Coruscant Jedi Temple. Also does the Corellian Jedi temple exist at this time, it is noted to exist 300 years from now? Finally Culu Memorial Center on Alpheradies was noted to be already constructed at this time and noted for training Jedi seers can we reclaim it as well?
 
Voikirium said:
Types of Jedi:

Jedi Guardians- Peacekeepers, who wield the Force to enhance their physical prowess. They are your mightiest frontline combatants, wading into fire, and returning it tenfold. Malak was counted among their number, before his fall.

Jedi Consular- Mystics, who meditate on the mysteries of the Force and study its secrets, seeking to battle the Dark Side not in the war, but in the peace. Revan walked this path.

Jedi Sentinel- Those Jedi who most strongly embrace a diversified skill set, and a more subtle, indirect approach, both in combat and in day to day situations. The Exile was one.
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Since I know we have a few people who've not played Kotor, I added this to the Mechanics post.
 
Crafter of War said:
The many students tech does nothing to help with working through the backlog of initiates we have to train. It just gives a bonus to recruitment quantity, which is the last thing we need.
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Is that the understanding motivating the vote? That explains things.

Many student doctrine gives us more recruits as a side benefit. That's not the only thing it does. It also enables us to train more than eight padawans at a time, our current number of Jedi. That's something we need very badly. Very, very, very badly. The difference between linear and geometic growth cannot be overstated.

Unless I'm wrong, which I suppose is possible, but I don't think so. @Voikirium, could you clarify?
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
Is that the understanding motivating the vote? That explains things.

Many student doctrine gives us more recruits as a side benefit. That's not the only thing it does. It also enables us to train more than eight padawans at a time, our current number of Jedi. That's something we need very badly. Very, very, very badly. The difference between linear and geometic growth cannot be overstated.

Unless I'm wrong, which I suppose is possible, but I don't think so. @Voikirium, could you clarify?
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Yep, it allows Jedi to train more Padawans-- that's part of where the bonus to quantity comes from.
 
I'm not so sure. Turning out under trained Jedi seems like how we're going to get a shit ton of Dark Jedi later.

While yes we have a bottle neck right now, we can wait it out and work through it, we've got a few autodidacts as it is, I would much rather keep pumping out high quality jedi rather than under trained ones that any punk with a blaster will kill.

Plus the inherent waste of research points irks me.
 
gman391 said:
I'm not so sure. Turning out under trained Jedi seems like how we're going to get a shit ton of Dark Jedi later.

While yes we have a bottle neck right now, we can wait it out and work through it, we've got a few autodidacts as it is, I would much rather keep pumping out high quality jedi rather than under trained ones that any punk with a blaster will kill.

Plus the inherent waste of research points irks me.
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It's only a 1 point difference, and we can switch back later. Besides, being able to send three Jedi where we'd otherwise have to send just one will more than make up for the skill difference.
 
[X] Plan: More Knights Sooner
-[X] Learning From the Past (0/10) x10
-[X] Broad Applications (0/10) x5
-[X] Holocron of Arca Jeth
 
I'm weeping into my drink every time someone votes to stick exclusively with the one student doctrine, guys. It would cost us twenty five Jedi that we could otherwise have trained.

That's 25 more Jedi to boost our chances of success on missions, to defend our enclaves, to help make up for war losses, and to find even more initiates to train. That difference is so staggeringly huge that it takes precedence over everything else.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
It's only a 1 point difference, and we can switch back later. Besides, being able to send three Jedi where we'd otherwise have to send just one will more than make up for the skill difference.
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I don't see any reason to believe we'll ever switch back, because we'll be here again with you saying 'oh we can have +X number of jedi if we stay the course instead of going back to a qualitative form that will allow us to make damn sure none of the Jedi we do have end up falling to the Dark side. The thing that usually kills the Jedi orders.

Not not having enough, not too many responsibilities. Its that they let little things go through because they have another student to cycle through or something else, so that they wake up and wonder where the fuck they went wrong with Revan, the Exile, Exar Kun or Ulric Qel-Droma

Yes we will have 25 Jedi we would not other wise have. But that just means we need to make every Jedi we put out worth 20 jedi put through the other system. We do not have this immense time crunch that you seem to think we have.

To me the risk of them falling because we can't give them enough attention is way more pressing than this risk we fail missions. It doesn't matter how many jedi we put on patrol. The dice will decide we fail eventually. Better to have Jedi who are at their absolute best to deal with that.
 
gman391 said:
I don't see any reason to believe we'll ever switch back, because we'll be here again with you saying 'oh we can have +X number of jedi if we stay the course instead of going back to a qualitative form that will allow us to make damn sure none of the Jedi we do have end up falling to the Dark side. The thing that usually kills the Jedi orders.

Not not having enough, not too many responsibilities. Its that they let little things go through because they have another student to cycle through or something else, so that they wake up and wonder where the fuck they went wrong with Revan, the Exile, Exar Kun or Ulric Qel-Droma

Yes we will have 25 Jedi we would not other wise have. But that just means we need to make every Jedi we put out worth 20 jedi put through the other system. We do not have this immense time crunch that you seem to think we have.

To me the risk of them falling because we can't give them enough attention is way more pressing than this risk we fail missions. It doesn't matter how many jedi we put on patrol. The dice will decide we fail eventually. Better to have Jedi who are at their absolute best to deal with that.
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It does matter how often we fail missions, because when we fail we lose out on resources and we can even lose Jedi. Every time that happens we are lessened than we could be in a way that is permanent. We must reduce mission failures as much as possible.

The whole concern over one technique producing more dark Jedi than another is pure supposition that has never been mentioned anywhere in quest canon. Who's to say having more than one teacher contributing to a student's education (likely to happen in the many students model) wouldn't be better for spotting Jedi in trouble before they fall?

And how many we turned away because we run out of teachers would go dark without Jedi guidance?

The Orders you're comparing with who fell to causes other than attrition, they didn't have eight members in wartime. This Order here and now is teetering on the edge of extinction. We need numbers and we needed them yesterday.

If a dark lord does arise (and let's be honest here it's inevitable regardless of what policy we go with because that's how Star Wars goes) we'll be in a better place to deal with them if we've got more people to work together at confronting them. It's also not just about numbers. More recruits generally means a higher absolute number of exceptional recruits, as well, the rare few like Yoda and Mace Windu who can compete with a full-blown Sith Lord head to head on even footing.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
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No where did I say that not failing missions didn't matter. What I said was that failure was inevitable and it was better to have Jedi who can deal with that because they are well trained to be as good as they possibly can be before they go out on their own. Instead of large teams of Jedi who are at best going to hope one of them has the skill set for it, and hope that isn't one of the ones who as you put it 'died' .

And I believe it is fully reasonable supposition that one on one training helps prevent falls to the Dark Side. You point to multiple teachers having a chance to notice things. I point to them not knowing any one student well enough to say if they need more help. So why would they be better?

To your last point. It's not war time! The War is over, for better or worse, we won in a Pyrrhic sense of the word . Now we're trying to hold it together. Doing that by pumping out half trained recruits who barely know what they're doing isn't going to help that. One of the lessons of Revan was that yes you do have to act, but going off half cocked is going to cause even more problems.

You say that a higher number of recruits means more chances to get a Yoda or a Mace. I don't see that, exceptional recruits in terms of force ability are always going to stand out and be prioritized because Force calls to Force. But instead of investing in Yoda and Mace all the training we could give them to truly make them the best they could be. You want to just go to 'good enough' and push them out the door in the hopes they can get enough on the job training to fix things out.

I see people panicking because we got a higher than usual spike of initiates, but saying we must change course over it is like saying that because we have a higher than usual amount of hangovers after new years day we should invest extensively in hang over cures for February. This spike is not going to last, and we can work through it.

I don't see the potential gains of numbers evening out to the quality. Jedi aren't about numbers. They're about ability.
 
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