Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Going from Praxeum to temple increases population support, yes.
There is no emotion... (A Jedi Order Quest)
- Thread starter Voikirium
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
[X] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
sounds good see no reason to something else
sounds good see no reason to something else
- Location
- Titan
[X] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
Yeah this is pretty simple. Juyo can be tackled and developed into Vapaad later, when the Order is an actual order rather than an elite squad and some kids.
Yeah this is pretty simple. Juyo can be tackled and developed into Vapaad later, when the Order is an actual order rather than an elite squad and some kids.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
It does appear that way at first glance, but there is no explicit mention of it. It would be pretty bad GMing to make options exclusive like that and not explicitly stating so. As such I assume that it is not, or at least that the GM will inform me that my plan is invalid so that I can edit it.
Also, there is no reason that some Jedi could not teach many and some only one, depending on their skills and duties. For example it would be pretty hard for a Guardian that operates in the field to teach half a dozen initiates while still fulfilling their duties, while a historian could perhaps manage.
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- Location
- United States
[] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
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ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
[X] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
I think it may have been mentioned at some point that these are Order-wide doctrines, but I'm uncertain.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They are exclusive-- sorry, I could have sworn I added that at some point.
I will say though, that you can teach more than one initiate at the same time yes. It's at Padawan and above where training doctrines really start applying.
It's more, you know, Jedi Academy and how Luke had six personal Padawans, or how Kyle Katarn trained both Rosh and Jaiden Korr at the same time, or how Meetra taught all six of the Lost Jedi vs. the Old Order and Obi-Wan only ever training Anakin and Luke, or how Anakin only had Ahsoka.
But for Initiates it works. Because to a big extent that is "Watch me and do what I do" vs the Padawan and how you're basically becoming, like, their dad+teacher+thesis mentor+brother, to varying degrees.
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Chandagnac
Broken Robot
- Location
- Nowhere
Despite its many flaws, KOTOR 2: The Sith Lords is one of my favourite videogames. I've often regretted the fact that it was never properly finished. (Although the Restored Content mod was able to patch over some of the cracks, it came about a decade after the original release and – although I'm glad that it exists, and the people who worked in it deserve a lot of praise – it's still not the complete game.) So yeah, I like the idea of this quest immediately. You've won me over already.
By the way, there's something weird about the order of the threadmarks. It goes from "There is no emotion" (the first post) to "There is no ignorance" (on the next page) and then it skips back to "Mechanics" (the second post on this first page). Was that intentional? It made me a bit confused when I started reading this.
[X] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
By the way, there's something weird about the order of the threadmarks. It goes from "There is no emotion" (the first post) to "There is no ignorance" (on the next page) and then it skips back to "Mechanics" (the second post on this first page). Was that intentional? It made me a bit confused when I started reading this.
Excellent. Bao-Dur was one of my favourite characters in KOTOR 2. His enduring friendship with the Exile was one of the best things about that game. I really felt they were two people who'd known and trusted one another for a long time.
Ugh, I hate the name 'Meetra Surik', but canon is canon.
Hmm. I'm not sure I entirely understand the rules of this quest, but this plan looks good to me. I'll go for it.
[X] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh damn, it should be fixed now.
Yeah, I mostly went with it because just saying "Exile" over and over again felt like it might get annoying.
Not sure if there's been previous discussion about whether we should pick 'one padawan' or 'many'. We've already spent points on 'one padawan', though not many and definitely not the sort of thing we should fall prey to the sunk-cost fallacy.
Multiple padawans also fits the KOTOR era -- Meetra did teach all six of the Lost Jedi, after all. Not to mention that Revan was taught by 'Arren Kae' and 'Kreia'. Yes, there's a fan theory that the two are in fact the same person (which means that Kreia was in fact the Handmaiden's mother!) but that's not confirmed, and there's plenty of evidence that each padawan in the Jedi Order would receive instruction from multiple instructors. (This might actually be a follow-up doctrine for us to 'research', boosting quality (base stats) by letting each padawan rotate between learning from multiple masters).
I'm not a fan of the Jedi teaching on 'all attachment is bad' (I like the KOTOR era because they don't deny emotions are important, and because there are plenty of examples of successful married Jedi of the era like Nomi Sunrider). However, it is true that attachment for a Jedi can be dangerous, which makes it remarkable that the prequel-era Jedi chose to assign a single master to a single padawan when that clearly would exacerbate any attachment that'd form between them. After all, when Asajj Ventress's master died, that's what caused her to fall to the Dark Side.
Multiple padawans would also be very different than the usual style of most Star Wars fics, and would give this story a unique 'hook' for readers. I'm a fan.
I'd argue strongly for having multiple padawans per master. For one thing, the current Jedi Order is still so small that it would be nearly impossible to adequately help the galaxy with our current numbers, and a 1-to-1 Padawan:Master ratio would keep us way too small for way too long. Multiple padawans might have lower quality (base stats) initially, but they'd also allow our new Jedi Order to be far more effective across the galaxy.
Multiple padawans also fits the KOTOR era -- Meetra did teach all six of the Lost Jedi, after all. Not to mention that Revan was taught by 'Arren Kae' and 'Kreia'. Yes, there's a fan theory that the two are in fact the same person (which means that Kreia was in fact the Handmaiden's mother!) but that's not confirmed, and there's plenty of evidence that each padawan in the Jedi Order would receive instruction from multiple instructors. (This might actually be a follow-up doctrine for us to 'research', boosting quality (base stats) by letting each padawan rotate between learning from multiple masters).
I'm not a fan of the Jedi teaching on 'all attachment is bad' (I like the KOTOR era because they don't deny emotions are important, and because there are plenty of examples of successful married Jedi of the era like Nomi Sunrider). However, it is true that attachment for a Jedi can be dangerous, which makes it remarkable that the prequel-era Jedi chose to assign a single master to a single padawan when that clearly would exacerbate any attachment that'd form between them. After all, when Asajj Ventress's master died, that's what caused her to fall to the Dark Side.
Multiple padawans would also be very different than the usual style of most Star Wars fics, and would give this story a unique 'hook' for readers. I'm a fan.
- Location
- ?????????
I wonder if we can find other Force using organization. I would love to co-opt some Matukai training into the Jedi order. Also Jal Shey force tech.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I tend to take that in an "Oodan-Urr was working in his native language, therefore there are connotations to that in the original text that Basic/English do not convey at all successfully"-- but it's more a grasping, hungry, greasy need, sort of the same thing as, like, the Bhuddist conception of attachment, rather than "oh you have a friend? DARK SIDE!"
(At least, when the Order is healthy)
The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
In light of the fact that the two training doctrines are mutually exclusive, I propose we put those five points towards something else. Otherwise the Ossus plan is fairly good, so only one change.
[] Plan: Bao Dur T-Poses Upon Any Who Would Dare Threaten Telos
-[x] One Student, One Teacher (2/5 -> 5/5) +3 - One Master, one Padawan. One to offer wisdom, the other to seek it. (Bonus to stats for new student)
-[x] Recruitment (4/5 -> 5/5) +1 - The most basic forms of detection of Force sensitivity-- Force Sight, the few holocrons you have left, etc. (gain consistent recruitment stream)
-[x] Force Combat I (0/5 -> 5/5) +5- The Force is not a weapon, but it may be used in the defense of yourself and of others. (Jedi Consulars may use Wisdom bonus in Combat checks against mundane opponents)
-[x] Form 7 (0/10 -> 5/10) +5 - While only the most martial Jedi could hope to use it, Juyo is one of the more useful combat forms-- if, perhaps, dangerous. (Bonus to Combat for Guardians, Weaponmasters)
-[x] Ossus (0/15 -> 6/15) +6 - Examine the world of Ossus, determine if it is now safe for habitation, and reclaim the Temple. (Open Ossus to Expansion)
[x] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
Changed since I'm not honestly super attatched to the specifics - I just don't want us to go backwards wasting 5 points on a mutually excluive doctrine.
[] Plan: Bao Dur T-Poses Upon Any Who Would Dare Threaten Telos
-[x] One Student, One Teacher (2/5 -> 5/5) +3 - One Master, one Padawan. One to offer wisdom, the other to seek it. (Bonus to stats for new student)
-[x] Recruitment (4/5 -> 5/5) +1 - The most basic forms of detection of Force sensitivity-- Force Sight, the few holocrons you have left, etc. (gain consistent recruitment stream)
-[x] Force Combat I (0/5 -> 5/5) +5- The Force is not a weapon, but it may be used in the defense of yourself and of others. (Jedi Consulars may use Wisdom bonus in Combat checks against mundane opponents)
-[x] Form 7 (0/10 -> 5/10) +5 - While only the most martial Jedi could hope to use it, Juyo is one of the more useful combat forms-- if, perhaps, dangerous. (Bonus to Combat for Guardians, Weaponmasters)
-[x] Ossus (0/15 -> 6/15) +6 - Examine the world of Ossus, determine if it is now safe for habitation, and reclaim the Temple. (Open Ossus to Expansion)
[x] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
Changed since I'm not honestly super attatched to the specifics - I just don't want us to go backwards wasting 5 points on a mutually excluive doctrine.
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- Location
- United States
[X] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
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The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
Ordinarily, no, but we can't get Ossus in one turn as it is, so I don't think it wholly matters if we need to put more points into it now or later than Form VII.
[X] Plan Many Low Hanging Fruit
-Many Students, One Teacher (0/5) +5
-Force Combat I (0/5) +5
-Recruitment (4/5) +1
-Ossus (0/15) +9
All right, new plan that follows the original 'Plan Low Hanging Fruit', but picks 'Many Students' (rather than the 'one student' doctrine), and invests the extra 3 research in unlocking Ossus. I've explained my reasons for preferring 'Many Students' above, and my reasons for prioritizing Ossus. But it makes sense to unlock 'Recruitment' and 'Force Combat' as immediate necessities, while 'Form 7' is much less urgent.
-Many Students, One Teacher (0/5) +5
-Force Combat I (0/5) +5
-Recruitment (4/5) +1
-Ossus (0/15) +9
All right, new plan that follows the original 'Plan Low Hanging Fruit', but picks 'Many Students' (rather than the 'one student' doctrine), and invests the extra 3 research in unlocking Ossus. I've explained my reasons for preferring 'Many Students' above, and my reasons for prioritizing Ossus. But it makes sense to unlock 'Recruitment' and 'Force Combat' as immediate necessities, while 'Form 7' is much less urgent.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Do we actually gain anything from selecting Many Students, One Teacher, as opposed to staying in a deliberate state of doctrinal flexibility?
There is the immediate benefit: a bonus to how many Initiates and Padawans we can recruit
More broadly, I expected that picking a doctrine would unlock future doctrinal options with additional bonuses. Things like Almas Academy allowing adult Force-sensitives to join the Jedi Order, or encouraging padawans to go on solo 'Jedi quests' to encourage independence and self-motivation (encouraging more students to follow the example of Fay or Thracia Cho Leem, as well as the example of Matukai and Wardens of the Sky, in wandering the galaxy following the will of the Force). Lots of interesting doctrinal choices that we might encounter down the road.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Okay, you talked me into committing. I was ready to make the argument for a deliberate state of doctrinal flexibility, and I don't think that would be a bad plan because we could switch gears from quantity to quality later when numbers and the threat of turning away pupils aren't so critical, but I'm willing to lean towards this.
I suspect Form 7's always on buff might be more useful than Force Combat I's only against mundanes buff, since Jedi will usually be alright against mundanes anyway and Consulars won't usually have combat assignments, but it's fine. I'm sure we'll get to Form 7 soon.
[X] Plan Many Low Hanging Fruit
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Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
While I am being nice and letting you go without Doctrine for now, if in ten years the Lost Jedi haven't figured out How To Train Jedi Real Good yet, there will be consequences-- and that is mostly because you guys absolutely super-beasted your rolls for Kador and Breda, so they partially managed auto-didactism.
Dang I thought that we could get both of the doctrines to start with then specialize which was why i was fine with the investment into One student, One teacher last time. so im kinda annoyed that we potentially wasted the points we invested into it however I would prefer the quanty focused traning (since we are so low on numbers) so im going to vote for this.
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